Topic: NOS vs. DIN

[Sloan Simpson]

I run my Neumann KM-184 pair in DIN most of the time, but just bought a NOS mount to experiment with. Is there a rule of thumb for which situations it might be preferable to run NOS in?

[acidjack]

Personally I only ever use NOS very close/onstage.

[carlbeck]

Personally I only ever use NOS very close/onstage.

Agreed with Acidjack, onstage or real close for me as well.

[Sloan Simpson]

Cool, thanks.

[tim in jersey]

NOS sounds nice outdoors too.

[Gordon]

NOS sounds nice outdoors too.

this.  I like it a lot outdoors as long as the stacks are wide enough for it to make sense.

[Gutbucket]

NOS verses DIN is and interesting comparison since both use the same angle between mics, with NOS just spacing the mics a bit farther apart.  It spreads out the monophonic center more a bit more than DIN on playback. At the same time, the ambient reverberant pickup is a bit less correlated with NOS do to the slightly wider spacing.  In some cases the center can get weak, and that subjective effect may be increased by the ambient verb being a bit wider and 'more stereoized'.

I suspect those things are behind the preferences for using it closer to the stage indoors.  The stronger direct sound keeps the center solid and the closer location keeps the room verb from becoming over-emphasized.  DIN is a bit more focused and monoish and may work better farther back in the room.  Alternately, it may work even better to keep the NOS spacing and angle the mics a bit less when farther- the mics will then be more on-axis with the PA (moving closer to PAS), and the ambient verb remains more open and a bit less correlated due to the wider than DIN spacing.

For the same reasons, NOS may be a good choice from farther back outdoors.  At a greater distance the direct sound will be more monoized (in Stereo Zoom terms the orchestra angle becomes narrower) since the inclusive angle of stage and PA becomes narrower as the recording position is moved farther back.  So the more spread center of NOS helps widen the stage on playback.  At the same time the wider spacing of the mics makes the ambient reverberant sound more open and 'stereoized', which is welcome and not a problem like it could be indoors since it's level is lower outdoors and it's probably less problematic than the room verb of many interior performance spaces.

The preference for NOS close indoors is a good example of how there is more going on than what is addressed by the Stereo Zoom.  Otherwise, based on Stereo Zoom alone, people would generally prefer DIN closer and NOS further back, which actually may be the case outdoors, but doesn't seem to be the case indoors.

[hi and lo]

NOS is horrible, especially with cards not on-stage. Complete waste of time imo.

[carlbeck]

NOS is horrible, especially with cards not on-stage. Complete waste of time imo.

I generally no longer follow typical spaced patterns personally but if I have too, aka a stereo bar being used for actives I would use NOS up close or outdoors, like Gutbucket mentions its closer to PAS outdoors with less worry about room reverb & DIN when FOB.

[Hypnocracy]

NOS is horrible, especially with cards not on-stage. Complete waste of time imo.

Wow...don't bother listening to this cut from behind the SNB then...

https://soundcloud.com/hypnocracy/sand

 

Strange...I have found that with Cards...it is more what you  POINT them AWAY from as opposed to what they are Pointing AT...I will agree that from farther back than  I like to run (less than 60 degrees of separation in angle to stacks)...I will go to 12" space Point At Stacks

I get to compare Bryonsos' DIN pull to my NOS regularly....as that is teh way we each prefer to roll

[Gutbucket]

..more what you  POINT them AWAY from as opposed to what they are Pointing AT

^^
Truth nugget.  After that the appropriate spacing depends on that angle.

[acidjack]

I'll add that when I use a fixed pattern, I use a "Point-At-Stacks" bar whose width between mics and (narrower) angle is based on one of Gutbucket's charts. And I have found that works well for distance and closer-in.

[airbladder]

I use it on stage/stage lip, close up outdoors, and with a 4 mic mix paired with some hypers xy.  To me it feels more "open" than DIN.  It just depends on if that is what you are looking for or not.  I would not use it far from a sound source indoors unless it was part of a 4 mic mix.   

[Sloan Simpson]

Finally got around to trying my NOS mount this weekend, and thought I'd link what I got for anyone mildly curious: http://southernshelter.com/2016/01/camper-van-beethoven-40-watt-club-2016-01-29/

[noahbickart]

I had great success with the schoeps mk22 NOS this year for phish at msg:

Here's 1/2:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=584225

[voltronic]

I had great success with the schoeps mk22 NOS this year for phish at msg:

Here's 1/2:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=584225

Not surprising, since the MK 22 is an open/sub-cardiod pattern and you're getting a SRA only a couple of degrees off from DIN with cardiods.  NOS is considered the "default" spacing for the CM3 also (same general pattern as the MK 22).  Of course, it's not truly NOS anymore since by definition you should be using cardioids, but I say "NOS" since everyone knows what that angle/spacing is.

Here's a folder of CM3 samples.  All were NOS spacing, but a variety of perspectives ranging from football stands (MB), balcony (Beethoven), taper/AUD (Trumpet Quartet), and on-stage (all the others).
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fgauh6pswkgpx67/AABZiWgBRjCMXWS55Vk1eV5Wa?dl=0

I have no actual cardioids at the moment to try a "real" NOS pattern width.  The next time I use the CM3s alone in a good acoustic, I may try a "wide ORTF" sort of pattern (again, what you're pointing away from) to maybe get a bit better imaging / separation.

[mfrench]

I ran 15"@50->60º quite often in acoustic chamber and orchestral music, and really liked the sound.  Anything less than 50º combined-axis create a bit too much cross-talk between the mics (sub-cards, most typically).

[goodcooker]

I ran NOS with Neumann KM143 subcards and it was excellent indoors and out.

[Gil]

NOS is horrible, especially with cards not on-stage. Complete waste of time imo.

I use it (or a variation) in just about every scenario, often with terrific results.