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Offline wrecked420

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Ideas on a newbie rig??
« on: October 25, 2003, 02:09:32 PM »
I am interested in taping shows that i go to. Unfortunately I don't have any idea what I want to use. Anyone have any ideas?

I have looked into computer recording, or perhaps JB3 recording, but would like a honest opinion from some experts!

Any help would be good. I am definately on a budget, so i would want something that i could build up to slowly, but for now im jsut looking for ideas on a good digital recording setup!

Thanks

Offline wrecked420

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2003, 02:42:00 PM »
awesome, thankyou very much!

Offline chuckcage

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2003, 02:52:58 PM »
I am interested in taping shows that i go to. Unfortunately I don't have any idea what I want to use. Anyone have any ideas?

I have looked into computer recording, or perhaps JB3 recording, but would like a honest opinion from some experts!

Any help would be good. I am definately on a budget, so i would want something that i could build up to slowly, but for now im jsut looking for ideas on a good digital recording setup!

I'm really pleased with my C1000 > AD-20 > NJB3 setup.  It's low $$ and makes surprisingly good sounding recordings.  I built this looking to do exactly what you sound like you want to do -- get going, see if it's as fun as it seems, have a good time, etc.  

AKG C1000 (x2): $300
Denecke AD-20: $325
NJB3: $250
Light Stand: $85
Cheap t-bar: $15

C1000s: These get panned a lot, and there's no doubt whatsoever that you can get better recordings with much more expensive mics.  To me, the clincher that makes these the best starter mics are the build quality.  They're built like tanks!  The capsules are internally shockmounted, so you can live without external shockmounts.  They come with a hypercardiod converter, so you've essentially got two patterns to work with from the start.  And, they can be internally powered with 9v batteries, so you don't need an external phantom power supply.  

To be fair, lots of people recommend the Oktava MC-012s, and many people like what they get with them.  Sound judgements aside, it's common knowledge (and I've got a pair to prove it) that the quality control on these mics is B-A-D.  If you're going to buy them, definitely buy them from a well-respected retailer who picks through the mics and only sells the stuff that's not junk.  Yes, you can get these mics from Guitar Center for as low as $100 for a pair, but be prepared to sort through every one they have just to find two that aren't trash.  I did this, and even now I'm having trouble with them.  But take my comments with a grain of salt; there are people out there who love these, and you might be one of them!

NJB3: What a cool little piece of gear.  Essentially you get uncompressed WAV recording, super transfer rates (firewire!), and a lot of recording time without sweating tape swaps.  And you don't have to buy tapes, which is pretty cool.  There are some drawbacks, though.  The NJB3 is a little persnickety and can be tricky to use reliably.  Power is sort of an issue -- the advice you see to buy the second battery when you buy the unit is good advice.  The bottom line for me, though, is that if you're going to use the NJB3 as a serious recording tool, an preampt is required and an outboard A-D converter is recommended.  I've heard lots of people say they're doing great using the line in on the recorder, but I've never managed to make a decen recording with one.  There's LOTS of information about the NJB3 scattered through this board, and there's even a Yahoo group called njb3tapers that you should check out if you're thinking of going this way.

Denecke AD-20: This is an outboard preamp/analog-to-digital converter.  It takes the signal from the mics in and sends an optical digital out to the NJB3.  It runs off a 9v for damn near forever!  'Nuff said.  Again, a lot of people are recommending the Edirol UA-5 with a modification that allows it to output digitally without being connected to a computer.  There's lots of information here about that, too.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw out my (brief) experience.  Good luck!

Chuck

Denecke AD-20: This is an outboard preamp and analog to digital converter.  
---
Currently:
C1000s/MK012 > PB224 > AD-20 > NJB3

Offline Simp-Dawg

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2003, 05:15:45 PM »
+T chuck
nice to see newbies helping each other out, i think you really have a grasp on what you are doing, you understand the capabilities and limitations of your gear and have done your homework on other options.
wrecked420 - after you're done reading the archives, let us know what kind of budget you have to work with.  it will help tremendously to know what you can get in the price range to suit your needs.
other questions/comments in no particular order:
will there be other tapers at the shows you want to record or do you think you'll be the only one? - if you'l be the only one you either need to get permission to make a soundboard tape or you'll need your own mics.  if you're primarily going to be attending shows that other tapers will be at, you can get by for a while just patching and take time to save up the scratch for mics.  (this will save you the cost of a pre and/or a-d as well)
you seem to want to go with a high-resolution recording (you mentioned laptop), rather than a compressed format (ie. minidisc).  your options are DAT, laptop, PDA (see www.core-sound.com), or NJB3.  out of these, it seems the jb3 may be the least expensive (assuming you don't already have a laptop) to get into.  from everything i've read about them, they really seem like a cool little option.  i've even considered getting one myself.  if you set it up and use it properly it appears to achieve the quality of DAT without the cost of tapes and the transfer time involved.
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Offline wrecked420

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2003, 05:24:44 PM »
I appreciate all the help and have been sorting out all the info given to me!

I am on a pretty small budget, but here is what I am thinking..please feel free to comment on this setup.

AKG c1000s mics....they seem to be used quite a bit and are fairly cheap.

Edirol UA5 ADC...seems to be feature full and somewhat cheap.

As far as what i will use to record i am stuck between an older DAT recorder..prolly a sony, a NJB3, or a laptop. I actually have an original NJB..the 10 gig version and was wondering if people had problems recording with these? I just don't seem to see any info on it. Any ideas there?

As far as what type of shows i would record: The whole reason I am seriously thinking about this is that I live in Utah and have noticed that very few, if anyone ever record these shows!! I would like to record these for the main fact that they are always some great shows!! I am looking to use this to record in club, outdoor, and indoor venues. Recording bands like Garage a Trois, Galactic, Phish..etc etc..to name a few.

Once again ...thanks for the help!

Offline wrecked420

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2003, 05:36:34 PM »
I am very computer literate...so i will eventually migrate toward a computer in the end. But for now I need a short term solution! lol

Offline mirth

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2003, 06:51:51 PM »
Wrecked, if you're going to go the UA5 > NJB3 route, then you will need to get a modified UA5 from Oade. The retail UA5 will not work unless its hooked up to a PC's USB port.
Oade sells new digimodded UA5's for about 350, sometimes you can find them less here or on their message board. They very infrequently show up on ebay as well. The nice thing about the modded unit from Oade is that you can send the unit back to them at a later date for one of two available preamp rebuilds... These mods cost roughly another $200 and some say put the preamp stage of the UA5 on the same calibur of the MiniMe or V3.

You can choose to not buy a UA5 from Oade and save yourself upwards of $100, the tradeoff is that Oade will not modify units purchased from them.
Governor Jim McGreevey was equally disturbed about the upcoming population increase. "New Jersey cannot support all of these wookies," he said. "For starters, we don't have nearly enough kindbud. At best, we can muster up a Q.P. of some beasties, but we've not a dime-bag more."

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2003, 06:53:33 PM »
Oh yeah, one other thing... If you're thinking of getting C1000s' for your mics, I might be able to hook that up. I co-op my rig with a buddy & our C1000s' haven't been used since we upgraded early last summer.
Governor Jim McGreevey was equally disturbed about the upcoming population increase. "New Jersey cannot support all of these wookies," he said. "For starters, we don't have nearly enough kindbud. At best, we can muster up a Q.P. of some beasties, but we've not a dime-bag more."

Offline greenone

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2003, 07:56:21 PM »
As far as what i will use to record i am stuck between an older DAT recorder..prolly a sony, a NJB3, or a laptop. I actually have an original NJB..the 10 gig version and was wondering if people had problems recording with these? I just don't seem to see any info on it. Any ideas there?

No dice on the original NJB - you need to have the NJB3 to record properly, unfortunately. Too bad though, and welcome to the club! ;D
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Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2003, 08:40:40 PM »
fwiw....
I use dat, 'cuz I suck with computers.
If your computer literate, the hard drives seem like a great way to go.

And the UA5mod would serve you well!

you sure know how to alt+s mike ;)

Offline chuckcage

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2003, 10:06:53 PM »
As far as what i will use to record i am stuck between an older DAT recorder..prolly a sony, a NJB3, or a laptop. I actually have an original NJB..the 10 gig version and was wondering if people had problems recording with these? I just don't seem to see any info on it. Any ideas there?

It's funny.  I seem to have been in a similar situation to you.  I'm a software developer, so I have a great laptop and even a few older ones around.  I thought I might try to leverage that in recording, but when I started adding up what it'd take to make it viable, I decided to go with the NJB3 instead.  Hey, maybe I'll regret this later, but right now I'm pretty happy.  I talked about this more in another thread:

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=23;action=display;threadid=8401;start=msg98123#msg98123

One thing that occured to me after my previous post is that you should leave a little room in your budget for accessories, which can add up fast.  I mean things like cables ($50-$100 here is easy to spend), a case/backpack to carry everything in (another $30-$100), extra batteries ($30-$50 for the NJB3, or maybe $100-$200 for an SLA setup), etc.

It's easy to blow your entire budget on mics and recorder, then find yourself making crappy recordings because you have bad cables, a bad stand, no windscreens, etc.  I'm new to recording other bands, but I spent four years screwing up recordings of my own band and speak from (bad) experience here.  For example, one time a friend brought some studio gear to our show, and I got to run AKG C414-B ULS > Mackie Mixer (hey, I had power) > Sony PCM-M1 -- easily $2500 worth of gear!  Crap recording because I used cheap-o cables, didn't test them carefully, and one was bad. Doh!  Even recently I thought I could get away without a stand.  At moe. in Dallas I got a recording laden with the BS-ing of all the friends of a guy near me (because my borrowed-from-my-PA boom stand put the mic just about at head level).  It's funny.  Last night I recorded my band's last gig, and a friend was there sitting in and recording too.  I was using my new light stand -- he used a boom stand.  Halfway through the set a drunk chick walks by, grabs his mic, and launches into karaoke.  Hehe.  Sometimes even I get something right.

Anyway, sorry to ramble.  Just budget in a little for good cables, a good stand, and good cases/bags for things so they don't get messed up.

...bands like Garage a Trois, Galactic, Phish..etc etc..to name a few.

I'm excited.  We're going to Galactic's halloween at Stubbs in Austin, TX.  Can't wait to see the show -- and record it!  A taper at moe. said to me, "I just like listening to my recordings."  He's right.  It's addictive!  I've got the instant live soundboard AND my own recording, and guess which one gets more listening.  Strange.

Chuck
---
Currently:
C1000s/MK012 > PB224 > AD-20 > NJB3

Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2003, 11:59:22 PM »
it does the same thing as clicking post *alt-s*

Offline wrecked420

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2003, 01:58:49 AM »
Great story chuck..lol..the karaoke has me rolling.

I was actually wondering what you guys use for mic booms...looking online i notice most are really low or have a boom attached which im sure we all know won't work well at a show setting!

Anyway..I am currently sorting thru all the info and I truly appreciate all the posts I have gotten! It's really cool to see so many people try to help a new guy out! Although I am new to the recording side I am an old audiophile who grabs every live recording I can store!

Mirth: I am definately interested in the AKG's...send me an email with a price and we can talk.

jasonsan@msn.com

Thanks again guys! I will be picking your brains more as I figure out which route I am going to go.

I was curious though, why does the UA-5 need to be modified for a NJB3 usb port and not a computer USB port??

Thanks ahead of time!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2003, 01:15:00 AM by wrecked420 »

Offline chuckcage

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2003, 01:21:26 AM »
I was actually wondering what you guys use for mic booms...looking online i notice most are really low or have a boom attached which im sure we all know won't work well at a show setting!

Most people use converted light stands, which are easily obtained from a number of online sites -- or your local pro photography shop, if you just can't wait for shipping. ::)  Manfrotto/Bogen (same company, different names) are the most common, though there are lots of others that are essentially identical.  These stands fold to ~3 ft. and then extend to 9-13 ft. tall.  Slick.

The trick is that most photography lights are designed to either clamp onto a "stud" (read: metal rod w/no threads) sticking vertically out of the top of the stand or to screw onto a 3/8-20 (I think) or 1/4-14 threaded rod.  Standard mic stands (like the ones you see used for vocal mics on stage) have 5/8-27 threads on them, so that's what your mic clips will have.  

So you have two issues:

1. Getting both mics onto one stand.  This is accomplished with a "t-bar" or the like -- just a bar that attaches to the stand and has threaded attachments for two mics.  Some of them look like a T, some are vertical with the mics mounted sideways.  Personally, I'm jonesing for the Shure A27m vertical bar, but can't convince myself to just order one. :)

2. Adapting whatever you use to do that to the stand.  Most all these are going to be designed to the "audio standard" of 5/8-27, so you'll need some kind of adapter.  My ghetto solution (until I get my cool A27m) was to pick up a little cheap-o t-bar from Guitar Center which was essetially a piece of flat metal about 7 inches long and 1 inch wide with three 5/8-27 threaded holes in it (left/center/right), knobbed 5/8-27 (male) screws for mics on the left/right, and a little riser on the center.  My light stand came with a reversable 3/8 / 1/4 piece on the top, so I just used a 3/8 wingnut to screw it to the center of the bar, then put the riser on one side so the mics are vertically stacked.  Hey, it works, and I spent all of $15 on the t-bar and a whoppin' $0.68 for the wingnut.

I was curious though, why does the UA-5 need to be modified for a NJB3 usb port and not a computer USB port??

It looks like you're a bit confused here.  The USB/Firewire connectivity on the NJB3 is for file transfer only.  Digital audio can only come in via the optical in.  The UA-5 is designed from the factory to operate plugged into your computer via USB while providing at the same time (only while connected) a S/PDIF digital out.  The mod enables the S/PDIF out when the computer isn't connected.

Also, FYI a 1.2 gig transfer (show) takes a long time over USB.  Firewire cards are cheap and good on the nerves if you're impatiently waiting to see what your show sounds like at home.

Chuck
---
Currently:
C1000s/MK012 > PB224 > AD-20 > NJB3

Offline wrecked420

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2003, 01:28:17 AM »
ahhh..good to know...i never thought about the transferring of the files from the NJB3! Had not even crossed my mind. The more I think about it the more I am leaning straight towards a laptop setup, and correct me if I am misreading this..but I would then need to connect a USB cable AND a S/PDIF digi cable to the laptop in order to record.

It almost seems that I could setup a computer for the cost of the additional mods. Although the mods for the close to minime/V3 conversion are very tempting!

Too much gear too little time! haha

Offline chuckcage

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2003, 01:58:53 AM »
The more I think about it the more I am leaning straight towards a laptop setup, and correct me if I am misreading this..but I would then need to connect a USB cable AND a S/PDIF digi cable to the laptop in order to record.

It almost seems that I could setup a computer for the cost of the additional mods.

Well, when I looked into it, I figured that the real difference is in the accessories.  YMMV, but here's how I saw it:

--- Laptop Setup ---

The UA-5 fills the phantom/preamp/converter role, so you're plugging your mics into the UA-5 and the UA-5 directly into the computer via USB.  (The UA-5 sends audio over USB, the NJB3 just doesn't receive audio over USB.  Make sense?  You have a device driver on the laptop to translate the audio over the USB.)

BUT, you now have to make arrangements to run your laptop and the UA-5 on batteries for the length of the show.  I don't know about you, but my laptop won't run 2-3 hours on internal battery.  I used to have one that let you replace the CD drive with another battery, but I'm not even sure I'd get 2-3 hours out of that.  There are some slick devices out there to do the job, but you're looking at $200-$500 for one.

I'm not an expert, but everyone seems to say that you can put together a DIY power supply for the UA-5 for $50-$100.  (Remember, you have to have a battery AND charger.)

So, total cost *by the time you can use it*: $350+$200+$50 = $600 at the low end.

--- NJB3 ---

NJB3 costs about $200 (some higher, some lower), which added to your UA-5 comes to about $550.  Add in your UA-5 DIY PS and it's a wash.

BUT, you don't have to carry your high $$ laptop to shows then be pissed off when it comes back smelling like a well-used ashtray (like everything I take to a show) or worry about someone stepping on it and putting you out $1500 or not being able to do your work on it.  Doh!

Also, I ended up choosing the AD-20 over the UA-5 because for $325 (or less used) it gave me the same basic functionality as the UA-5 without the cost of a DIY battery as it runs for WAY longer than a show on a singly 9v.  That get's you down to $525 or so.

Of course, you might want to be able to use the UA-5 at home for recording (which it was really meant for).  I have a Digidesign 002R for that (8 track 24/96), so that's not really high on my list.

Transfers w/Firewire from the NJB3 are a dream, too.  1.2 gig show in just a minute or two.

Chuck
---
Currently:
C1000s/MK012 > PB224 > AD-20 > NJB3

Offline wrecked420

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2003, 02:12:01 AM »
i got ya...makes sense now. I was under the understanding that the NJB3 both sent and recieved audio over USB. I am checking out the ad-20 now too!

Offline mirth

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Re:Ideas on a newbie rig??
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2003, 05:00:58 PM »
Wrecked - I'll check with my buddy & send you an email.
Governor Jim McGreevey was equally disturbed about the upcoming population increase. "New Jersey cannot support all of these wookies," he said. "For starters, we don't have nearly enough kindbud. At best, we can muster up a Q.P. of some beasties, but we've not a dime-bag more."

 

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