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Author Topic: Taping in Mono rooms  (Read 17814 times)

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DaryanLenz

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Taping in Mono rooms
« on: April 13, 2003, 11:56:57 PM »
I have always wondered this and since I am bored, I thought I would throw this up for discussion.  I have always run in the sweet spot, assuming a stereo mix, and never have really bothered to ask if the mix was mono or stereo.  So I found out one of the bar's I tape in regularly is a mono room.  Theoretically, wouldn't the best tape be made directly in front of one of the stacks?  Would one still run a stereo configuration or just AB?  Just cuirous...

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jpschust

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2003, 12:02:43 AM »
if the mix is a mono mix then tape the stack from up close in an ortf or xy config so that you turn a mono mix into a stereo mix with as little annoying crowd as possible

DaryanLenz

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2003, 11:01:26 AM »
Bump, anyone else care to comment?

D

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2003, 11:21:49 AM »
Theoretically, wouldn't the best tape be made directly in front of one of the stacks?

Depends on the sound you're after.  This will provide the most soundboard-like recording, obviously.

With a mono mix, I still like using a stereo config in the sweet spot - even though there isn't a L/R stereo image of the instruments (guitars panned left, keyboards panned right) - because of the imaging it provides.

Whether or not to run a stereo config when stack taping is a question I can't answer as I've never done it.
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Offline hippies

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2003, 12:47:07 PM »
stack taping rocks when you get the chance.  i wouldn't want to strictly tape this way, but it is definately fun, and everyone should try it at least once!  Jonny pretty much nailed it with his comments.  

still, i have my doubts as to whether a stereo config helps 'much' in this very high spl situation, so close to the source.  try it both ways and see for yourself.  

Brian is right on the money, you'll get a recording that sounds very much like a SBD/ Matrix recording if done properly.  the whole idea behind stack taping is to isolate the music from crowd noise.

one hint:  check out the kind of cabinets you are trying to record before setting up.  are they combination cabinets, or seperates?  in other words, are the cabinets all the same, pushing highs/ mids/ lows?  or are you looking at seperate cabinets for each range?  if they are seperates. you don't want to be TOO close, as you will pick up too much of the range cabinet you are in front of.

hope this helps.

~S  

Offline scb

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2003, 01:35:14 PM »
aren't most shows mono mixes?

Offline hippies

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2003, 02:00:50 PM »
Scott's right.  there are some exceptions, but yes.  that being said, i'd still guess that somewhere around 90% of the shows you will see are done with a mono mix.

QUE: Nutter for his argument that some instruments, at times, are being 'panned' slightly even in a mono mix, so is this 'truly' a mono mix?  (paraphrasing of course.)

obviously, we've had this discussion before, and do not agree on this point.   ;)

~S
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 02:28:17 PM by hippies »

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2003, 02:57:44 PM »
I think 90% is too high of an extimate based on my experiences as an engineer in clubs and theatres. Maybe so, maybe not.

Besides DMB what other big bands punk out and go with mono mixes?  ;)

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2003, 03:13:36 PM »
well, you Colorado guys tell us.  which is it, stereo, or line array?  ;)

you were the ones pushing the theory of these line array sound systems designed to make every seat in the house sound the same at head height.  add a stereo mix on top of this, and i'd like to know how this is accomplished exactly.  ;)

say i'm in the right hand third of some pavillion.  how then am i hearing a stereo mix that sounds the same to the person in my exact opposite position in the left hand third of the pavillion?  is this even physically possible?

either i'm missing something, or these are some amazing systems you're talking about and i have yet to see/ hear them.  and yes, i've seen the Cheese in small to large Venues over the years.  ;)

peace

~S  

Offline nickgregory

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2003, 09:09:17 PM »
I think 90% is too high of an extimate based on my experiences as an engineer in clubs and theatres. Maybe so, maybe not.

Besides DMB what other big bands punk out and go with mono mixes?  ;)

Although I have no way to prove this, I believe that the Allman's run some sort of stereo/mono mix in the amphitheatres.  Last year in Raleigh, I taped from my seat, Left stack, and it sounds balanced.  

While I do think that ABB run a stereo mix, I believe they mix it with some sort of overlay (maybe it is the line array effect that Scott was referring to) that does not make any part of the house sound too out of balance.

This does not of course discount the fact that a nice stereo mix could have been achieved from centered seats.  I guess my belief is that if it was true stereo, me taping form 3 rows from the left stack, I would have gotten a badly out of balance tape and this is not the case.

Any stereo geniuses out there that can explain this? ;D

Nick

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2003, 09:27:38 PM »
well, you Colorado guys tell us.  which is it, stereo, or line array?  ;)

you were the ones pushing the theory of these line array sound systems designed to make every seat in the house sound the same at head height.  add a stereo mix on top of this, and i'd like to know how this is accomplished exactly.  ;)

say i'm in the right hand third of some pavillion.  how then am i hearing a stereo mix that sounds the same to the person in my exact opposite position in the left hand third of the pavillion?  is this even physically possible?

either i'm missing something, or these are some amazing systems you're talking about and i have yet to see/ hear them.  and yes, i've seen the Cheese in small to large Venues over the years.  ;)

peace

~S  

I think you're confused.

We were talking about wave form development and the height of the stands. If you run your stand too high you stand a chance of recording wave forms that are not fully developed and thus your tape might sound bright etc.

Each speaker is designed to throw to a specific part of the room. Hopefully, then each seat will recieve a less denegrated sound source.

That is the dillema of Mono v. Stereo. Give a lot of the house (70-80%) good sound and the rest shit. Or give that number in the sweet spot (30%?) phenomenal sound, another 50% good sound and the rest shit.

Offline hippies

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2003, 09:56:53 PM »
haha!  well excuse me, but i don't believe i'm 'confused' at all, brah!

ok, so again i ask you, Tim, which is it?  give me negative tix if you will, (since i have reached the 128 tix threshold and you can do nothing but bring me down now.)  ;)  

side note:  Bri, can we fix this?  i don't really care about this much, but we can't give Rael any more neg tix!  hehe...

but i still think this deserves discussion!   ::)

again i go back to your argument of a week ago or so, Tim.  you yourself admit it's one or the other.  line array, or stereo.  well, last week we heard from you that we should ALWAYS run at head height due to 'most bands' running line array systems.  Nutter chimed in and said Phil/ DMB/ others use this type system.

you have now admitted that this 'line array' is not possible with a 'stereo mix'.  so which is it?

given your vast knowledge of house systems, and experience running said systems, do 'most bands' run via stereo mix, or line array?  you can't have both my friend.  ;)

i hope you understand that this discussion is meant in the vein of a fact finding tour, bro.  no offense intended!  give me the neg tix till next Tuesday, i could care less...  

as far as i'm concerned, we're here to get the facts straight, and i hope we can do that through this discussion.

peace

~S
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 10:08:44 PM by hippies »

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2003, 10:07:04 PM »
lose the passive aggressive attitude. Negative Tix? I could really care less about my or anyone else's tix. Check with Bri, I'd love for him to tell you how many +/- I've given anyone and especially you.

No, you are confused. Why couldn't you have a stereo mix with a line array? Look and see how many speakers are hung on each side. Probably 15-20. Each side can be delivered different source (ie. setreo) and each speaker on each side is configured for a different spot in the house.

later.. Bra'h...  ::)
haha!  well excuse me, but i don't believe i'm 'confused' at all, brah!

ok, so again i ask you, Tim, which is it?  give me negative tix if you will, (since i have reached the 128 tix threshold and you can do nothing but bring me down now.)  ;)  

side note:  Bri, can we fix this?  i don't really care about this much, but we can't give Rael any more neg tix!  hehe...

but i still think this deserves discussion!   ::)

again i go back to your argument of a week ago or so.  you yourself admit it's one or the other.  line array, or stereo.  well, last week we heard from you that we should ALWAYS run at head height due to 'most bands' running line array systems.  Nutter chimed in and said Phil/ DMB/ others use this type system.

you have now admitted that this 'line array' is not possible with a 'stereo mix'.  so which is it?

given your vast knowledge of house systems, and experience running said systems, do 'most bands' run via stereo mix, or line array?  you can't have both my friend.  ;)

i hope you understand that this discussion is meant in the vein of a fact finding tour, bro.  no offense intended!  give me the neg tix till next Tuesday, i could care less...  ;)

peace

~S
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 10:10:12 PM by Tim »

Offline hippies

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2003, 10:45:04 PM »
obviously, we have a different view as to what exactly constitutes 'Stereo'.  let's clarify here:

when i say 'mono mix', i am saying that the same (95%) of the information/ music is being transmitted through BOTH left AND right speaker stacks at the exact same time.  

it is again my view that around 90% of the acts/ bands/ venues we see will be broadcasting the PA in this manor.  

to ME:  a stereo mix would suggest a mix which precludes the musicians on the left of the Sound Stage would 'mostly' show up on the left Stacks, and vice versa.  where and when  is this happening?

my opinion:  it's NOT happening.  

again, Tim, i ask how could a mix which pans, say, Jerry, stage left, possibly make the seats in left/ right sound the same?

impossible.  i believe you are a bit confused, my friend...  ;)

peace

~S      

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2003, 11:21:22 PM »
I never said that the seats left and right would sound the same. Each *individual* speaker (not each *stack*) is arrayed to deliver optimal sound to a specific point in the venue. Each individual speaker on the left and the right is arrayed for a specific point in the venue. You array each speaker individually and each stack is a complete and seperate entity.

The audio sent to each side of the pa is controlled at FOH through the desk and no matter if you are running traditional boxes or a line array system you can utilize stereo if you have a desk with pan pots and enough power amps.

I am sick of talking in circles with you. Please some one else let me know if what I am saying is not clear.

http://www.l-acoustics-us.com/techsupport/linearrayQA.pdf

 

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