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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Siryu on February 27, 2008, 01:37:13 PM
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Hi Guys,
Im trying to find my ideal midrange portable ,i´ve already read all reviews (transom, wingfield, etc..)and im thinking 620 and D50 might be the best.
First of all i intend to use it for ambs and quiet ambs such as birds, parks , distant traffic.... and occasional live music... no voice rec ....no ext mics
Seeing this i need a recorder with a very low hiss,good pre, good built-in mics and easy to move ( no matter $ between d50 & 620)
Specifications vs Size? Is D50 much better in quality to kill 620 or is the lightweight and size of the marantz enough to win?
Thanks to all
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The Transcom review of the 620 points out a pretty high noise floor using the internal mics. I don't think Marantz reveals the self-noise specs, but Sony claims 20dB for its mics, which I would guess is better than the Marantz. The Sony also gives you the choice of angling the mics anywhere from zero to 120 degrees.
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Actually, the Transom review says, "the 620 makes relatively clean recordings, sounding clearer and less hissy than most of the other small handheld flash recorders, including its larger predecessor, the Marantz PMD 660", while a post on Linder's blog gives the internal mics on the Sony an 8.5 out of 10 and the Marantz an 8 out of 10.
It should also be noted that the internals on the PMD620 are omnis, so the inability to change angles is not a big deal compared to the directional mics on the Sony.
As far as I am concerned, however, the above is all sort of meaningless given the type of recording you want to do. I think you will find the internals on both machines to be too noisy for quiet ambient stuff. Both are also pretty susceptible to handling noise.
Have you considered going with external mics? The difference is amazing... :)
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The PMD620 is capable of making very nice ambient and music recordings with external electret mics, but I would not seriously consider using the internal mics for music. They're clearly designed for voice recordings, and I can tell you the results for live music are pretty awful. I agree that they wouldn't be very good for quieter ambient sounds either, you probably want externals + a preamp for that.
I have no experience with the Sony.
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Actually, the Transom review says, "the 620 makes relatively clean recordings, sounding clearer and less hissy than most of the other small handheld flash recorders..."
My understanding is that the above statement refers to the noise contributed by the pre-amps, not the internal mics. In the sample recording with the internal mics, the reviewer says, "There's a noticeable amount of hiss and broadband noise back there..."
http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_interviewing/200712_marantz_620/audio/Transom-620-InternalMics.mp3
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Siryu, are you sure that you want to exclude external mics? None of the internals sound that great, in my opinion, including the R09, PCM-D50, H2, and PMD620. Maybe the H2 sounded the best of the lot (but pretty subjective). I thought the Sony was marginally better than the Marantz (a little less brassy, but not much less noise).
Have you considered the R09 with the Church Audio mic modification? I haven't heard it, but suspect it's an improvement over the others. And switchable caps (omni or cardioid). Just a thought! :)
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What are the reasons that the internal mics on the Sony have received 8,5 out of 10 and the internal mics on the Marantz have received 8 out of 10? What are the Sony and the Marantz frequency response and the frequency response of their internal mics? Is there any laboratory test/review?
Thank you
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So much for trying to help people out with what I thought were thoughtful posts. Minus eight tickets in one day??? Administrators--HELP. Who's out to get me anyway? Be a man and tell me what your gripe is.
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What are the Sony and the Marantz frequency response and the frequency response of their internal mics?
No idea about the Marantz, but from the Sony website:
Built-in Microphones
frequency response 20 Hz to 20 kHz.
Frequency Response (Line Input to Line Output)
For Fs = 22.05 kHz: Frequency Response = 20 Hz to 10 kHz; For Fs = 44.1 kHz: Frequency Response = 20 Hz to 20 kHz; For Fs = 48 kHz: Frequency Response = 20 Hz to 22 kHz; For Fs = 96 kHz: Frequency Response = 20 to 40 kHz
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It seems that the marantz is going to win the bet, and in the future i´ll purchase a pre and ext mics
Anyhow,Professor Halfbaked said:"None of the internals sound that great, in my opinion, including the R09, PCM-D50, H2, and PMD620. Maybe the H2 sounded the best of the lot (but pretty subjective)"....sure?? ...somebody else thinks like that?
And another thing, is it easy to get into the shows with a recorder like the 620??
Thank you all ;)
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It seems that the marantz is going to win the bet, and in the future i´ll purchase a pre and ext mics
Anyhow,Professor Halfbaked said:"None of the internals sound that great, in my opinion, including the R09, PCM-D50, H2, and PMD620. Maybe the H2 sounded the best of the lot (but pretty subjective)"....sure?? ...somebody else thinks like that?
And another thing, is it easy to get into the shows with a recorder like the 620??
Thank you all ;)
Yes. That thing is really small.
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It seems that the marantz is going to win the bet, and in the future i´ll purchase a pre and ext mics
Anyhow,Professor Halfbaked said:"None of the internals sound that great, in my opinion, including the R09, PCM-D50, H2, and PMD620. Maybe the H2 sounded the best of the lot (but pretty subjective)"....sure?? ...somebody else thinks like that?
And another thing, is it easy to get into the shows with a recorder like the 620??
Thank you all ;)
When I got my PMD620, a friend (who actually sort of inspired me to take the leap) had the other three. So we tried all four internals at the same time, recording from a loud stereo. None of them were really horrid, but none of them were that great either. But I thought the Zoom sounded the best of the lot. Of course, your mileage may vary and all. :) Then again, the Zoom sounded the worst with the externals hooked up, in my opinion.
And, like Dede2002 said, it is pretty small...I think the new Olympus (LS-10?) is a little smaller, but I haven't heard anything about how they sound yet...
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So much for trying to help people out with what I thought were thoughtful posts. Minus eight tickets in one day??? Administrators--HELP. Who's out to get me anyway? Be a man and tell me what your gripe is.
+T for your outrage ;D
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So much for trying to help people out with what I thought were thoughtful posts. Minus eight tickets in one day??? Administrators--HELP. Who's out to get me anyway? Be a man and tell me what your gripe is.
Same thing here. Minus 8 or 9 tickets in less than 48 hours. This is amazing and a real mistery to me ???. I've never been rude, unpolite or anything bad. I'm just trying to learn and help when I could, despite my lack of knowledge. ;)
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So much for trying to help people out with what I thought were thoughtful posts. Minus eight tickets in one day??? Administrators--HELP. Who's out to get me anyway? Be a man and tell me what your gripe is.
+T for your outrage ;D
Thanks very much.
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So much for trying to help people out with what I thought were thoughtful posts. Minus eight tickets in one day??? Administrators--HELP. Who's out to get me anyway? Be a man and tell me what your gripe is.
Same thing here. Minus 8 or 9 tickets in less than 48 hours. This is amazing and a real mistery to me ???. I've never been rude, unpolite or anything bad. I'm just trying to learn and help when I could, despite my lack of knowledge. ;)
Sorry to hear you had the same experience.
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So much for trying to help people out with what I thought were thoughtful posts. Minus eight tickets in one day??? Administrators--HELP. Who's out to get me anyway? Be a man and tell me what your gripe is.
Same thing here. Minus 8 or 9 tickets in less than 48 hours. This is amazing and a real mistery to me ???. I've never been rude, unpolite or anything bad. I'm just trying to learn and help when I could, despite my lack of knowledge. ;)
Sorry to hear you had the same experience.
Well, from one minute to another, I have 4 tickets! Thanks everyone ;D
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Here is the noise spectrum graphs of the two models operating at identical MIC input gains, and comparison of LINE input noise using low noise external preamp for same MIC gain.
Comparing the noise performances of these different models over frequency is possible with eyeing the dB scale numbers at the right to the graph lines showing the recorded deck noise levels.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/-35dbu_n.gif)
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/micvs3sx(log).gif)
How audible, or interfering to the audio signal purity a deck's internal noise is going to be depends on the frequency, the character of the noise (like is it continuous Gaussian type or more audible digital impulse with harmonics) and the dB level (loudness-amplitude) of the noise.
It does seem, at least from see the graphs, the D50 has the quieter analog inputs.
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I have no experience with the M620 but my PCM-D50 has made some of my best stealth recordings in the 5 years that I have been recording. Of course, I was using Sony and Sharp MDs and Hi-MDs before but the mic input and line input seem very quiet and dependable to me. Just my .02 of course...
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Thanks a l lot.
+T to everyone.
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I have no experience with the M620 but my PCM-D50 has made some of my best stealth recordings in the 5 years that I have been recording. Of course, I was using Sony and Sharp MDs and Hi-MDs before but the mic input and line input seem very quiet and dependable to me. Just my .02 of course...
How would you compare using the mic preamps in the PCM-D50 to using your Beachtek?
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I do find the Beachtek to be very quiet as well. I pick up just a little more mic self-noise when using my micro omnis (Sound Pro BMC-12's) into the PCM-D50 than when using the Avantone Busmans into the Beachtek which is an XLR input. But, then again, that external preamp and mic combo tends to handle the louder SPLs than the PCM-D50 preamp unless I activate the PCM-D50 attenuator which is super!
It's hard to compare since it's different mics and different situations but I won't be getting rid of my Beachtek or Avantones any time soon to just use the PCM-D50 mic input if that makes a difference in what you are asking.
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I do find the Beachtek to be very quiet as well. I pick up just a little more mic self-noise when using my micro omnis (Sound Pro BMC-12's) into the PCM-D50 than when using the Avantone Busmans into the Beachtek which is an XLR input. But, then again, that external preamp and mic combo tends to handle the louder SPLs than the PCM-D50 preamp unless I activate the PCM-D50 attenuator which is super!
It's hard to compare since it's different mics and different situations but I won't be getting rid of my Beachtek or Avantones any time soon to just use the PCM-D50 mic input if that makes a difference in what you are asking.
Thanks.
It sounds as if the PCM-D50 is holding its own anyway, which is heartening.
I was wondering if I should hunt down a battery operated preamp to use with my PCM-D50, and was curious as to how much of a difference it would make.
Unfortunately, Beachtek doesn't make that model anymore. Are there other similar options?
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I do find the Beachtek to be very quiet as well. I pick up just a little more mic self-noise when using my micro omnis (Sound Pro BMC-12's) into the PCM-D50 than when using the Avantone Busmans into the Beachtek which is an XLR input. But, then again, that external preamp and mic combo tends to handle the louder SPLs than the PCM-D50 preamp unless I activate the PCM-D50 attenuator which is super!
It's hard to compare since it's different mics and different situations but I won't be getting rid of my Beachtek or Avantones any time soon to just use the PCM-D50 mic input if that makes a difference in what you are asking.
Thanks a lot for the Bill Frisell recording. Sounds great. ;D
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I do find the Beachtek to be very quiet as well. I pick up just a little more mic self-noise when using my micro omnis (Sound Pro BMC-12's) into the PCM-D50 than when using the Avantone Busmans into the Beachtek which is an XLR input. But, then again, that external preamp and mic combo tends to handle the louder SPLs than the PCM-D50 preamp unless I activate the PCM-D50 attenuator which is super!
It's hard to compare since it's different mics and different situations but I won't be getting rid of my Beachtek or Avantones any time soon to just use the PCM-D50 mic input if that makes a difference in what you are asking.
Thanks.
It sounds as if the PCM-D50 is holding its own anyway, which is heartening.
I was wondering if I should hunt down a battery operated preamp to use with my PCM-D50, and was curious as to how much of a difference it would make.
Unfortunately, Beachtek doesn't make that model anymore. Are there other similar options?
What type mics do you have now? The attentuator on that PCM-D50 does a super job and the digital limiter has it's merits too. If you have a miniplug type mics now, don't waste your time looking for a battery box, just use the PCM-D50 until you find it's not doing the job...
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What type mics do you have now? The attentuator on that PCM-D50 does a super job and the digital limiter has it's merits too. If you have a miniplug type mics now, don't waste your time looking for a battery box, just use the PCM-D50 until you find it's not doing the job...
I have an old stereo condenser SONY ECM-979 which has XLR connectors but doesn't put out much signal. I just bought an AT822 (being shipped) which has a mini-plug end so maybe that'll be good enough.
I take it you're happy with the Beachtek preamp. Is there any other one that's as good?
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You can run that AT822 into the mic input for acoustic shows and go line input for loud rock and be good to go...
I modified that Beachtek to accept a lithium ion DVD type battery with the help of the company. It was a whole lot cheaper than what Sony wants for an XLR to miniplug preamp to go with the PCM-D50. You should be able to find some DXA-10s around the internet if you search or even contact Beacktek directly and tell them what you want,etc.
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What type mics do you have now? The attentuator on that PCM-D50 does a super job and the digital limiter has it's merits too. If you have a miniplug type mics now, don't waste your time looking for a battery box, just use the PCM-D50 until you find it's not doing the job...
I have an old stereo condenser SONY ECM-979 which has XLR connectors but doesn't put out much signal. I just bought an AT822 (being shipped) which has a mini-plug end so maybe that'll be good enough.
I take it you're happy with the Beachtek preamp. Is there any other one that's as good?
I made some really decent shows with the AT822 when I first started. It's a great mic that's easy to setup and run. It should serve you well with the PCM-D50.
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Here is the noise spectrum graphs of the two models operating at identical MIC input gains, and comparison of LINE input noise using low noise external preamp for same MIC gain.
<snip>
It does seem, at least from see the graphs, the D50 has the quieter analog inputs.
Hey Guy, thanks for the continued analysis of this gear.
Do you happen to have specs on the voltage/dB level of the Sony D50 inputs (mic lo, mic hi, line)?
Richard
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I modified that Beachtek to accept a lithium ion DVD type battery with the help of the company.
Did that give you significantly longer battery life when using phantom power?
BTW, thanks for your replies, and I'd give you a +T if I knew how!
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I modified that Beachtek to accept a lithium ion DVD type battery with the help of the company.
Did that give you significantly longer battery life when using phantom power?
BTW, thanks for your replies, and I'd give you a +T if I knew how!
Simple. One click on [gdtstoo]. This is it. ;)
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Significant in close to 1 hour and then up to 2 days' worth of recording. It's like 2 different ballparks. The standard is using a 9volt and the lithium ion DVD battery gives you so much more power. It's not even worth comparing.
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Simple. One click on [gdtstoo]. This is it. ;)
Sorry, can't find [gdtstoo] to click on.
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Simple. One click on [gdtstoo]. This is it. ;)
Sorry, can't find [gdtstoo] to click on.
Check the picture.
Of course you are not allowed to give +T to yourself ;)
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Simple. One click on [gdtstoo]. This is it. ;)
Sorry, can't find [gdtstoo] to click on.
Check the picture.
Of course you are not allowed to give +T to yourself ;)
I see what you mean in your picture, but that isn't what I see in my browser.
For some reason -- perhaps because I'm new to this board -- those items are not visible to me.
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Simple. One click on [gdtstoo]. This is it. ;)
Sorry, can't find [gdtstoo] to click on.
Check the picture.
Of course you are not allowed to give +T to yourself ;)
I see what you mean in your picture, but that isn't what I see in my browser.
For some reason -- perhaps because I'm new to this board -- those items are not visible to me.
Oh yes, you're right. Only now I remember that. You need at least 50 posts. You only have 24. Don't worry. You'll get there.Good luck ;D