Topic: ADC or other improvements?

[Al Gain]

I'm recording using SP CM6 omnis >> SP battery box >> Sharp DR7 MD.  So far, so good.  Recording folkloric music, usually outdoors, almost always acoustic, but loud (lots of percussion).  What might be my next upgrade?  Would a preamp help me out?  I am in the dark as to what advantages this might offer me.  Any ideas?

[Brian Skalinder]

Upgrading your mics will produce the greatest improvements in your recordings.  Check the Newbie Central thread in the Archival Info section for why people run outboard preamps and ADCs.

[Sean Gallemore]

i totally agree but for some reason I have yet to do this

[Al Gain]

Thanks for the response.  That post is very useful, but the explanation of the reasons for using a preamp (gain, right?) and ADC is a little baffling.  Are these useless to me unless I upgrade my microphones?  At some point, do I need these (preamp and ADC) in order to get the most from whatever microphones I may obtain in the future?  Thanks for the input.

[Brian Skalinder]

That post is very useful, but the explanation of the reasons for using a preamp (gain, right?) and ADC is a little baffling.

The reason people use external preamps is because they sound better than portable DAT/MD built-in preamps (from the archive post):

Why do so many people schlep around so much gear if it's possible to create a digital audience recording using just a pair of internally powered mics and a portable DAT/MD recorder?

Usually, manufacturers who create devices which perform more than one or two functions [1-5] have to skimp on quality to keep costs down.  Take the Sony D8 portable DAT recorder:  in order to keep the costs down on the D8, Sony skimped on the quality of the preamp [3] and ADC [4].  As a result, many people use an external gain stage [3] and ADC [4].

Are these useless to me unless I upgrade my microphones?

An externa pre and ADC are not useless without upgraded mics.  You will likely notice improvements with a preamp change, and possibly with an ADC change (this is, in part, dependent upon the quality of your playback system).  BUT, these improvements will pale in comparison to the improvements from upgrading your mics.

At some point, do I need these (preamp and ADC) in order to get the most from whatever microphones I may obtain in the future?

IMO, yes.  Though different people prefer different sonic characteristics in their mics/preamp/ADC combination, so you may or may not want to use the same preamp/ADC combo with two different sets of mics.  This is another reason to upgrade mics first.  Find mics with sonic characteristics you like, and then add the preamp/ADC afterwards to tweak the sound you're getting.

[Al Gain]

You have all been very helpful and I appreciate your replies.  Now, if I may take a tangent here, how might I look into a mic upgrade?  The mics I'm using are of the mini variety, which is actually very useful as I'm doing extensive field recording -- traditional music, processions, and the like, so light and small is good.  Very much on the move the whole time.  Two full-sized mics would be rough (and though I am doing these with permission, very conspicuous), so I'm looking at a pair of small minis (like I have) or maybe maybe a full-sized single-point stereo.  Any thoughts?  Again, thanks in advance.  

[Sean Gallemore]

the best way to find out which mics you would like as an upgrade is to listen to recordings made by different mics.

You can always ask for recommendations, but your ears won't lie to you.

[Al Gain]

Again, thanks for the response.  I wouldn't mind some specific suggestions from someone, though, as living in Brazil I'm not exactly with my ear to the ground with the tapers community.  Access to technology is not what one might hope for.  I'm new to this board (how did I miss it before) and think it's great.  Hopefully I'll be able to be helpful to others here as well.

[Brian Skalinder]

What's your budget?
How inconspicuous do you need to be?
For how long do you need to power your gear?

[Al Gain]

Budget:  Not over 1,000 bananas, preferably considerably under, if that is realistic.  I'm not recording stealth -- I always get permission to record -- but as I am constantly on the move, both traveling and at the recording sites, size and weight definitely count.  I need to power my gear for as long as possible.  Sometimes I am recording all day (or all night!) long.  It may be worth mentioning that my experience has been best with my omnis, although I have had more limited occasion to use cardioids (to point at that singer lost in a sea of percussion).  Ideally I would be able to buy a mic with multiple pickup patterns and ease of switching between them.

[Brian Skalinder]

I think for inconspicious, ultra-portable, great sounding omnis, it's tough to get better than DPA 406x and the MPS 60xx power supplies are tough to beat.  Check out the DPA website for the different options available (different options will have different numbers in place of the x's in the model numbers above).

Do you run line-in or mic-in to your MD?  If you're running mic-in - or you find yourself needing more gain running line-in - consider the MPS 6010 power source as its XLR outputs will allow you to easily add in some line transformers (DPA 406x > MPS 6010 > line transformers > Sharp MD).  Line transformers provide around ~25dB of fixed gain and can be had for around $50/pair, a great inexpensive way to get your signal strength up.

[Al Gain]

Brian, thanks heaps for your assistance.  What do you know about DPA's "compact" mics?  These are also quite small, and as stated, I am not stealthing.  Do you know if there is any noticeable sonic advantage to these slightly larger mics?

[Cooker]

the 402X series is a far far better sounding mic than the 406x series

[Brian Skalinder]

the 402X series is a far far better sounding mic than the 406x series

Al - Cooker is right.  The DPA compact line sounds a lot better than the miniature series.  The compact line is very, very transparent and offers gobs of detail.  But the 402x compact series Cooker references are cardioids and from what I understand you're primarily interested in omnis.  Also, they're roughly 3x your $1,000 budget.

I've not heard the 403x/405x compact omnis or the 400x standard small diaphragm omnis, so I can't speak to them.  But they, too, are significantly above your $1,000 budget.

For inconspicuous omnis for < $1,000, I think it's tough to beat the 406x series.

Anyone have sub-$1,000 omni recommendations besides the 406x?

[Simp-Dawg]

yeah if you're not stealthing, and want to save a little on the mics but still have the ability to try multiple pickup patterns and mic configurations, i'd recommend the oktava mc012's from the sound room, matched, with all three capsules.  you get cardioid, hypercardioid, and omni caps with matched bodies, all for around $675 if i remember correctly.  just go to www.oktava.com, that'll take you to the sound room's site.  also i highly recommend dealing with taylor, he's a good guy and knowledgeable about the mics, plus he provides good customer service.  the oktavas are by no means a high end mic, but they sound very very good for the price and are very versatile.  then you'll have some scratch left over for a pre/adc.
note: you can also pick up a pair of the oktavas at your local guitar center or perhaps a used set from someone on this board, prices will vary widely and quality control may be an issue, as well as availability of the different capsules, but you can get them cheaper than from the sound room.

[Al Gain]

I can't believe all this great help I'm getting here.  Now that I'm delving further into this, of course, the can of worms is becoming a closet of serpents.  That is actually very cool, but I can tell if I had the cash, option anxiety would be killing me about now.  But let's just say I sold my house.  Or my soul (always a possibility).  For the sake of argument, and just so I know the range I'm dealing with, what would be the best compact mic I could get for field recording -- imagining (ironic chuckle) that money were no object?  

I've been doing a little research on my own and did find the Neuman 140s.  What about those?  (However, mechanical switching from one polar pattern to another is a very attractive feature in my case).  To answer the above, I'm using omnis because in my limited technical experience (3 years, around 50 or 60 MDs), they do the best job for me.  I am recording traditional music in the field in Brazil.  It is almost always acoustic, often involving wailing percussion, voices, sometimes accordians, little guitars buried under it all, etc.  Much of the time I am recording processions, so I have to pick up sound over a wide range.  (I have also considered trying wide cardioids).    There is however often one singer doing a call thing in the middle of the procession, while the rest of the people respond.  This means I have to do a sort of on-the-spot mix, as I have only one pair of mics.  I have found that it works well to get as close as possible to the singer; the rest -- chorus and percussion -- seems to take care of itself very nicely.  I've tried the cardioid capsules with my mics, but I found the sound very boxy and unnatural compared to the omnis.  They are also too focused for processions.  In addition, they appear to be much more sensitive to wind, a common outdoor feature.  That said, I have found the cardioid caps useful when I can't get close to the singer -- I'm recording Afro-Brazilian religious music, so I have to be a little delicate about where I place myself, and sometimes it's better to lose the music and keep the friendship.  Again, this explains why I am not stealthing (I can't do this without permission), but at the same time I need to keep it fairly compact and light because I still prefer to be as subtle as possible, and I'm on the move constantly.  Also keep in mind that this experience of mine is only with the SP-CM6 mics I mentioned, omni and cardioid elements -- Sound Professionals says they are basically AT853s in a small body.  

I realize my needs are very different from the majority of folks on this board, but any further recommendations anyone might have would be most appreciated.  

Sorry for my long-windedness and thanks to you all.