Topic: Using CMC-8 mics without a battery box with 48V supplied by the Microtrack II

[adrianf74]

Hey All:

It's been about five years since I taped a show (on my trusted Sharp MiniDisc Recorder which I've long sold) and I'm thinking about getting back into the game again.

I'm looking at a couple of options - the Edirol R-09 and the M-Audio MicroTrack II.  Personally, I'm leaning towards the M-Audio device for a number of reasons (prefer M-Audio over Edirol/Roland, can get it cheaper, and it records to CF as I've had some bad luck with SD cards).

My question is this: does the MT II supply enough phantom power in a loud live concert environment to get away without having to use my old battery box (i.e., can I eliminate one piece of gear in the chain).  At this point, I'm assuming using the phantom powered inputs connected directly to my CMC-8 (AT-853s) Cardioid Mics.   Or, is this going to end up with a distorted recording - and my only real solution is to continue using the Battery Box in the middle of the chain and use the "line in" connection instead?

Just trying to figure out what the best solution is here.

Thanks for any help that anybody can offer me on this.

[paulbaptiste]

The CMC8's are 943's not 853's but each has an option of having phantom adapter's;  do you have those?  do your mics end in mini xlr inputs?  The Adapters go from 9v to 52v so power should be adequate. 

Also check the recording gear section to read through reviews/ complaints of each.  I'd vote R09 over Microtrack IMO. 

And Welcome Back to Taping! +T

[adrianf74]

The CMC8's are 943's not 853's but each has an option of having phantom adapter's;  do you have those?  do your mics end in mini xlr inputs?  The Adapters go from 9v to 52v so power should be adequate. 

Also check the recording gear section to read through reviews/ complaints of each.  I'd vote R09 over Microtrack IMO. 

And Welcome Back to Taping! +T

Thanks for the quick reply.   I'm looking forward to getting back into the game as it's been a few years.  As my CMC8's end in a 1/8" jack, I'm  thinking I might be stuck with line in - I was just trying to see if there was another option that would allow me to avoid lugging around the battery box.

On a good note, I might have found an R09 for $300 mint with 2x 2GB cards in the Toronto area which will save me a few dollars.   At that price, I'm willing to take it over the MT2.

Any other thoughts?

[paulbaptiste]

I have a question about running various mics directly into my recorders.  Below is a list of the mics and recorders I have.  I'm curious about my options for bypassing the batterybox/pre-amp, in the event I want to run superstealth, or want to run 2 rigs simultaneously (one would be the full rig, the second would possibly be mics -> recorder). 

my mics:
at853 [I plan to get the 4.7k mod done on these eventually]
at943 4.7kmod
ssdsm6

my recorders:
r09
r-1
iriver h120 (rockboxed)

[for running a full rig, here are the batteryboxes/preamps I have, st-9100; sp-spsb-1; PA6-LC (for ssdsm6) . . . but right now I'm interested in going mic -> recorder]

Thanks in advance for comments.

I think it really depends on how loud the show is going to be. I think that the 853 is a great mic but when wired two wire with out any mods distorts rather easily. The 943 mics DO not require this mod.. If you have done it to these mics you have actually degraded the performance. The 853 on the other hand would benefit. From my mod but again you should use your 943 once you unmod them for quiet stuff direct in. And your modified 853 mics for loud shows. So under the right circumstances BOTH your mics could be used with your R-09 for super stealth. The iriver is not a great choice only because of its low plug in power voltage. The r09 puts out 5 volts which is plenty.


Chris

There it is.  I was looking for some info on modding, putting a resistor in your mics for higher spl handling, and also about to advise you on getting an iriver, but it has half the plug in power as your R09 and you don't need to degrade your microphones.  SO simply stealth i think you have the right idea-

[evilchris]

Church Audio Cards > R-09 (mic input)

no pre, and it works surprisingly well for rock shows.

example: http://www.archive.org/details/mofro2008-02-05.stc-11.flac16

[adrianf74]

Okay.

I appreciated all of the feedback that I've received to this on this question.  I ended up with an R-09 courtesy of c-list from a guy who bought one in January, used it for a few recording sessions, and then sold it (it's in mint condition still with the film over the screen) and grabbed it for three bills with a 4GB class 6 SDHC card.  Considering he bought it in January for close to $450 + the SDHC card, I can't complain. 

Now, the question is this: I still have my trusty CMC-8's with SP-SPSB-3 battery box (which uses the mini 9v batteries).  I'm debating whether I'm better dumping this set and picking up the Church Audio Cards as several people have pointed out you can get away with using them on plug-in-power situations in small clubs (very loud) or keeping them as they are pretty good for what they are.

Any thoughts as to the pros and cons?

[Dede2002]

I'm kinda lost here. So the CMC-8 (AT943 - 2 wire, I guess) do NOT need any mods to tape really loud music?
Man, I was under the impression that the 4.7 mod (or whatever) was needed for all AT mics sold by Sound Pros.

Edit: Is the  Sound Pros "low sens mod" option the same thing as the 4.7 mod?

[j.mart]

I'm kinda lost here. So the CMC-8 (AT943 - 2 wire, I guess) do NOT need any mods to tape really loud music?
Man, I was under the impression that the 4.7 mod (or whatever) was needed for all AT mics sold by Sound Pros.

Edit: Is the  Sound Pros "low sens mod" option the same thing as the 4.7 mod?

according to what i've read here, the 943'w distortion has a mechanical origin (diaphragm) and not electronic (FET). unlike the 853's, the 943's can handle way higher SPL better without modification, however they'll reach the point of distortion sooner than the 853's, if the later is low-sens modded (resistor moded). too bad, because i much prefer the 943 sound to tape live music than the 853, or any other cardioid lavalier mic i know of.

[Dede2002]

I'm kinda lost here. So the CMC-8 (AT943 - 2 wire, I guess) do NOT need any mods to tape really loud music?
Man, I was under the impression that the 4.7 mod (or whatever) was needed for all AT mics sold by Sound Pros.

Edit: Is the  Sound Pros "low sens mod" option the same thing as the 4.7 mod?

according to what i've read here, the 943'w distortion has a mechanical origin (diaphragm) and not electronic (FET). unlike the 853's, the 943's can handle way higher SPL better without modification, however they'll reach the point of distortion sooner than the 853's, if the later is low-sens modded (resistor moded). too bad, because i much prefer the 943 sound to tape live music than the 853, or any other cardioid lavalier mic i know of.

Thanks a lot. Still not sure about buying a pair.
+T

[nameloc01]

Just put mini-xlrs on them and get phantom adaptors. That will end any speculation.

[Liquid Drum]

From what Chris Church said, the CMC-8 (AT933/43) don't need the mod as they can handle the SPL ok. As mentioned already, the diaphragm is what causes the mic to distort, not the FET. As far as I know, its a good idea to use windscreens to try prevent this (I've used them plenty of times with zero distortion).

[Dede2002]

Just put mini-xlrs on them and get phantom adaptors. That will end any speculation.

You're 100% correct. But as a stealth taper, I really need to keep my rig small. 3.5mm plugs is the only thing I can use.
Thanks.

[Dede2002]

From what Chris Church said, the CMC-8 (AT933/43) don't need the mod as they can handle the SPL ok. As mentioned already, the diaphragm is what causes the mic to distort, not the FET. As far as I know, its a good idea to use windscreens to try prevent this (I've used them plenty of times with zero distortion).

So if the problem is the diaphragm ( not the FET), does the  Sound Pros "low sens mod" solves the problem at all?

[Javier Cinakowski]

i much prefer the 943 sound to tape live music than the 853

Have you ever owned a pair of 853's ?  There is not much difference between the two models, but I would take the 853 capsules in any recording situation.  AT uses the same frequency graph for many of the microphones in each series (engineered sound vs unipoint). Their stance is that the sound is the same, but there is a premium price for the smaller Engineered Sound line.  Since the unipoint line was updated there is a slight difference between models frequency plots.  The Unipoint is flatter in the highs and slightly fuller in the lows.  See attached image(U853 in red)

I personally prefer the 853 (new or old) to the 943 capsules.  I think they sound better in every regard.  My opinon only relates to the capsuels of each series, as I havn't found a difference in the sound of the bodies.  The price difference really seals the deal for me....

[nameloc01]

While it is a little bigger, its still quite stealthable.. I do it on a regular basis. Pretty fair "trade-off" IMO.

[adrianf74]

So - as it's been a while since I taped a show - when I bought my CMC-8's back in 2003, there was no "low-sensitivity-mod" available at that time.  If I was to get them modded today, would I be able to use the mics with plug-in power and NO battery box and not run into brick-walling?

I should add that my mics have a 1/8" mini jack as opposed to any sort of XLR connection, obviously.

Many Thanks

[nameloc01]

So you only have mini in? How about xlrs for phantom?  If you went with the adaptors you'd have to get dual xlrs>mini plug cord.

Ps. The AT 8532s are selling for 57.00 each right now.

[Liquid Drum]

From what Chris Church said, the CMC-8 (AT933/43) don't need the mod as they can handle the SPL ok. As mentioned already, the diaphragm is what causes the mic to distort, not the FET. As far as I know, its a good idea to use windscreens to try prevent this (I've used them plenty of times with zero distortion).

So if the problem is the diaphragm ( not the FET), does the  Sound Pros "low sens mod" solves the problem at all?

No, it doesn't. And I guess that even when powering via phantom you would have the same problem. The thing is, the AT933/43 (AFAIK) is apparently supposed to be a lav mic when it was made (I could be wrong though). However, the AT853 is supposed to run via phantom power.

[Javier Cinakowski]

The thing is, the AT933/43 (AFAIK) is apparently supposed to be a lav mic when it was made (I could be wrong though). However, the AT853 is supposed to run via phantom power.

That is kinda backwards and wrong.

The AT933 is a phantom only, contractor exclusive series microphone line, known as Engineered Sound.  There was no lavalier in this line.  The line was updated to inclued a 943 lavalier microphone.  It is identical to the 933, except that it has a groove for a lavalier clip.

The 853 series, known as UniPoint is a slighly larger consumer line, that also includeds options for battery or phantom power.  It was recently updated with better RFI sheilding and slightly better statistics...  This line does not have a lavalier...

Being electret microphones, their phantom requirements are relativly low, making them more versitle at 11v-52v....

The distortion issue is a matter of different capsule design IMO. They are just differnt mics....

[Liquid Drum]

The thing is, the AT933/43 (AFAIK) is apparently supposed to be a lav mic when it was made (I could be wrong though). However, the AT853 is supposed to run via phantom power.

That is kinda backwards and wrong.

The AT933 is a phantom only, contractor exclusive series microphone line, known as Engineered Sound.  There was no lavalier in this line.  The line was updated to inclued a 943 lavalier microphone.  It is identical to the 933, except that it has a groove for a lavalier clip.

The 853 series, known as UniPoint is a slighly larger consumer line, that also includeds options for battery or phantom power.  It was recently updated with better RFI sheilding and slightly better statistics...  This line does not have a lavalier...

Being electret microphones, their phantom requirements are relativly low, making them more versitle at 11v-52v....

The distortion issue is a matter of different capsule design IMO. They are just differnt mics....

Thanks for the correction.

[Javier Cinakowski]

no problem.  I am jsut trying to help.  I have spent an embarasing amount of time researching AT.....

T+

[paulbaptiste]

So you only have mini in? How about xlrs for phantom?  If you went with the adaptors you'd have to get dual xlrs>mini plug cord.

Ps. The AT 8532s are selling for 57.00 each right now.

where are these at?  looking through the sp site.  I just really wanna get some 853 bodies to run w/ the caps i have now.

[nameloc01]

The 8532s are phantom power battery belt packs. One per mic, they were up until just recently like 170.00 each, SP is selling them for 57.00 each. Apparently AT has stopped making them or at least this version. I just ordered a set friday.

[paulbaptiste]

just curious, why carry around 2 batt packs, what advantage does that have over the ps2 in your signature?

and +T on the explaining your post, i found it right after i posted.

[Sunday Driver]

From what Chris Church said, the CMC-8 (AT933/43) don't need the mod as they can handle the SPL ok. As mentioned already, the diaphragm is what causes the mic to distort, not the FET. As far as I know, its a good idea to use windscreens to try prevent this (I've used them plenty of times with zero distortion).

While we are the topic...does anyone know if the FET electronics (inside the "body") in the AT943 series are the same as those found in the AT853 series?

[Sunday Driver]

The 8532s are phantom power battery belt packs. One per mic, they were up until just recently like 170.00 each, SP is selling them for 57.00 each. Apparently AT has stopped making them or at least this version. I just ordered a set friday.

Do you plan to use these with a phantom power source (without the battery in the box) or off the battery supply of the "belt pack"? I really want to see how far you could push 853s using the 8531 or 8532 on battery power with no phantom source before they distort.

[nameloc01]

No, these actually are phantom power boxes,one per mic. The advantage over my ps2 is the spl handling is a little higher and the output signal is balanced (ps2 is not)

[Sunday Driver]

Oh, the slightly older 8531 boxes that I have do not provide phantom power. When you put the battery in, it is strictly sending supply voltage to the mics. When you remove it, it acts as a phantom adapter, similar to the AT 8533. If the 8532 really sends phantom power to the mics, I need two of these. 

[nameloc01]

Well, it obviously doesn't send 48v to the mics, but apparently the mics can handle the highest spls with these and unlike the denecke, the outbound signal is balanced. But yes,when the batteries are removed you can plug them into a separate phantom supply and they will act as phantom adaptors so the mics don't get FUBAR. I was hoping mine would arrive today,as I am taping CLUTCH tonight,but I ordered a custom cord so It will be a few more days. Shit.

[Sunday Driver]

OK, thanks, that's pretty much what I figured. In fact, it's probably the same as running a "three wire battery box", except in the AT box you get a transformer for a balanced output signal. I'm going to run both and compare the gain loss soon.

[clevbrowns]

Well, it obviously doesn't send 48v to the mics, but apparently the mics can handle the highest spls with these and unlike the denecke, the outbound signal is balanced. But yes,when the batteries are removed you can plug them into a separate phantom supply and they will act as phantom adaptors so the mics don't get FUBAR. I was hoping mine would arrive today,as I am taping CLUTCH tonight,but I ordered a custom cord so It will be a few more days. Shit.

How'd it go? I was at the Peabody's show and once again, Clutch did not disappoint.

[nameloc01]

Well, the 8532s didn't arrive yet, so it was 853>ps2>m100.
CLUTCH kicked ass as usual but that audience was out of control,way too much moshing..did you happen to see Neil roll his eyes and shake his head? It was very irritating, I was back, kinda in line with the board,but in the middle of the floor and still kept getting knocked around. (I did throw a few shoves to a couple of the repeat assholes) I actually left about 10 minutes early,I couldn't take it anymore. I think the recording came out well, I will listen to it tonight when I get home.
It was nice though, since I had a "TM" tic,I got a free CLUTCH poster drawn and signed by Derek Hess. I hate Peabodys.