Topic: Sony PCM-D100

[H₂O]

Optical out is pcm only - I don't know if the d100 allows DSD audio (converting to PCM first) out of the optical output though

[Mike Davis]

Thanks!

[Belexes]

Interested to hear if anyone jumped from the D50 to the D100 and if there are any dramatic differences. I love my D50.

[Mike Davis]

Optical out is pcm only - I don't know if the d100 allows DSD audio (converting to PCM first) out of the optical output though

OK, I sent this query to Sony Pro Support:

Does the PCM-D100's optical output (S/PDIF) support DSD2.8 playback without degradation of any kind?
 
Similarly, does the optical output (S/PDIF) support LPCM 192kHz/24bit playback without degradation? I'm pretty sure it can transport 192kHz/24bit LPCM, but I'm most concerned about the DSD2.8.
 
Please advise.
 
Thank you!
 
Mike

Here's the reply from Sony:

Hi Mike
 
Yes PCM-D100 optical does output DSD 2.8, LPCM this output is digital data no degradation is present, see attached ops manual page 86
 
Regards, thanks for choosing Sony.

Here's what he was referencing, from page 86 (specifications) of the PCM-D100 Operating Instructions:

Signal-to-noise ratio (S/N)
(Input from the LINE IN (OPT) jack, output from LINE OUT (OPT) jack when recording/playing back) (1 kHz IHF-A)

....DSD 2.8MHz/1bit: 98 dB or above

....LPCM 192kHz/176.4kHz/96kHz/88.2 kHz/48kHz/44.1 kHz 24bit: 96 dB or above (for /S/N 100dB OFF)/100 dB or above (for S/N 100dB ON)
 
 
Total harmonic distortion
(Input from the LINE IN (OPT) jack, output from LINE OUT (OPT) jack when recording/playing back)

....DSD 2.8MHz 1bit: 0.008% or below (1 kHz, 22 kHz LPF)

....LPCM 192kHz/176.4kHz 24bit, 96kHz/88.2kHz/48kHz/44.1kHz 16bit/24bit: 0.006% or below (1 kHz, 22 kHz LPF)

I find it hard to believe that the Optical Out of the the hybrid connector labeled "LINE OUT (OPT)" can actually deliver "DSD2.8 S/PDIF" to an external DAC, as my recent study of this topic has me believing there's no such thing as a 1-bit/2.8MHz mode for S/PDIF.  And if so, why can't I find any DACs that can accept this on an Optical Input?

At best, the PCM-D100's DSD2.8 playback must be getting converted to 192 kHz/24-bit LPCM.  More research is needed, but I think Sony's in-house email answer guy is cluelessly misinterpreting the specs.  They are not broken down to show Analog Line Out specs vs. Optical Out specs.

What do you guys think?
 
Mike

[H₂O]

Their is a protocol called DSD over PCM (some call it DoP) but this is typically run over USB -  from what I have read it requires running PCM at 32bit 384khz or something like that so as to not affect timing - and maybe tied to DSD128 not DSD64 as the sony uses


 I may be wrong on the speed but DoP requires a DoP capable DAC and the only ones I have seen use USB - it is a newer technology

[carlbeck]

This is an interesting topic & I'm glad to see the DSD vs 24 bit argument resurface again. I used to own the Korg MR1000 & to my ears there is a noticeable improvement in sound quality vs 24 bit. In fact it is so noticeable that I have just ordered the Ifi Audio IDSD for my headphone system. It plays native DSD files with no processing, the guys at Ifi Audio really seem to get it. I don't know how many of you spend anytime over at Head-fi but those guys take their listening very seriously & they have a wealth of knowledge in regards to high Rez files. Which brings me to my question, it's the age old question really that doesn't require a specific answer but more of a thought process. Those of you who can or can't hear differences in file types or bit depth, what is your playback system? There is a significant difference in everyone's playback systems & in my opinion it is part of the reason why there are so many different opinions in what one person can hear over another. Again, not a contest on who's got the better playback just a thought. Here's the link for Inano DSD
http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/nano_iDSD.html

[1984]

Aside from the dsd functionality, which I have admittedly not used...am I crazy for thinking the d100 does not sound nearly as good as the d1 at 24/44.1? My d1 got stolen (after 5 years of making solid recordings) and instead of tracking down a replacement, I opted to wait for the d100 release. So far i'm not sure it is a suitable replacement for the d1. My main issue is that the d100 seems to not handle high volumes as well, like say band practice in a small room. In this same room, with the same level settings, same resolution, the d1 would effortlessly produce a flawless rendering, without any -20 cut engaged. The d100 seems to distort a bit at high volumes, even when the meters are in the clear. Also, d100 seems to have more audible noise floor, whereas the d1 self noise was basically non-existent. After years of working with the d1, the d100 feels and sounds "prosumer" to me, rather than pro audio, which is what I was afraid of when I ordered it. I wish I had more time to put it through its paces, maybe I would eventually realize that it is a suitable replacement for the d1. Even the d100 user manual makes no indication of utilizing it for capturing live shows and events...which is another use I have for it. It suggests using it for stuff like recording yourself "practicing" acoustic guitar and recording nature sounds. Good stuff for sure, and stuff I do, but what about a high res recording of the SF symphony? d1...no problem. Any thoughts?

[Egor]

Aside from the dsd functionality, which I have admittedly not used...am I crazy for thinking the d100 does not sound nearly as good as the d1 at 24/44.1? My d1 got stolen (after 5 years of making solid recordings) and instead of tracking down a replacement, I opted to wait for the d100 release. So far i'm not sure it is a suitable replacement for the d1. My main issue is that the d100 seems to not handle high volumes as well, like say band practice in a small room. In this same room, with the same level settings, same resolution, the d1 would effortlessly produce a flawless rendering, without any -20 cut engaged. The d100 seems to distort a bit at high volumes, even when the meters are in the clear. Also, d100 seems to have more audible noise floor, whereas the d1 self noise was basically non-existent. After years of working with the d1, the d100 feels and sounds "prosumer" to me, rather than pro audio, which is what I was afraid of when I ordered it. I wish I had more time to put it through its paces, maybe I would eventually realize that it is a suitable replacement for the d1. Even the d100 user manual makes no indication of utilizing it for capturing live shows and events...which is another use I have for it. It suggests using it for stuff like recording yourself "practicing" acoustic guitar and recording nature sounds. Good stuff for sure, and stuff I do, but what about a high res recording of the SF symphony? d1...no problem. Any thoughts?

Could you, please, upload dsd samples of d100? recording chord playing D-G-Cadd9? I mean bright simple chords. Please!!!!! There is no acoustic guitar recording of d100 on web!

[noam]

My main issue is that the d100 seems to not handle high volumes as well, like say band practice in a small room. In this same room, with the same level settings, same resolution, the d1 would effortlessly produce a flawless rendering, without any -20 cut engaged. The d100 seems to distort a bit at high volumes, even when the meters are in the clear. Also, d100 seems to have more audible noise floor, whereas the d1 self noise was basically non-existent. ... d1...no problem. Any thoughts?

Did you use the D1 and D100 with the built in mics or external ones?

Noam

[1984]

I used the built-in mics...which have worked well for my purposes over the years. I'm actually really disappointed that the d100 has performed so badly with the live band recordings, because it has a ton of features which would be great to have that i'll miss when going back to a d1 or d50 (32GB, DSD, etc..). The d100 actually does sound incredible when recording quieter sources, so it's super frustrating that it can't handle the loud stuff too, like the older models could. So close to greatness!

Just to be sure before returning the d100, I took it out to a loud show in SF last night and tried to see what i could get. From 20' from the stage, input set around 2-3, meters never clip..and the results were the worst sounding recording I've ever made with a Sony PCM recorder. Full of weird pops and distortion uncharacteristic of the line.

I saw another thread on here by someone else having the same problem with recording loud shows.

[AB52]

Sounds like the preamps do not have a lot of headroom or it is meant to be used in that circumstance with an input pad on (does it have that feature?)  Try it with the input pad on.

[yates7592]

I don't know if Sony has deliberately changed the ability of the internal mics to handle high SPL, but at least two people here seem to have issues. Whilst the manual gives little away, the Sony press release info did state that the internal mics are "highly sensitive", pandering to the nature recorders. It would have been helpful if they had put some numbers to this so that punters can make their own minds up. Thinking about it now, I did a very brief test run with the internal mics just outisde my house. It was quite a windy day but the dawn chorus was in full swing, and the levels were clipping occasionally even with the 20dB pad engaged. I thought nothing of it at the time.

However, it is a superb deck when using external mics, no question.

[Egor]

I used the built-in mics...which have worked well for my purposes over the years. I'm actually really disappointed that the d100 has performed so badly with the live band recordings, because it has a ton of features which would be great to have that i'll miss when going back to a d1 or d50 (32GB, DSD, etc..). The d100 actually does sound incredible when recording quieter sources, so it's super frustrating that it can't handle the loud stuff too, like the older models could. So close to greatness!

Just to be sure before returning the d100, I took it out to a loud show in SF last night and tried to see what i could get. From 20' from the stage, input set around 2-3, meters never clip..and the results were the worst sounding recording I've ever made with a Sony PCM recorder. Full of weird pops and distortion uncharacteristic of the line.

I saw another thread on here by someone else having the same problem with recording loud shows.

Could you, please, upload some guitar files using built in mics? There is no audiosamples of d100 in the internet

[1984]

Sorry I returned the d100 to b&h..I don't know if my experience using the built-in mics to record high SPL sources are indicative of what most users can expect (maybe my unit was defective?) but there was no way that thing was going to work for what I need it for most of the time, which is recording bands. I think the comment about the preamps not having a lot of headroom is a possibility...hopefully if this is a real problem for enough people it will prompt Sony to make some changes to their design.

In the meantime, found a good deal on a slightly used D1..

[AB52]

I would not be surprised if the preamps are not as good as the D1.  If using the digital in, it should be as good as any (and better than the D1 since the D1 does not have a digital input.)
But without the digital in - it appears the jury is out on that one.