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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: tekdroid on July 19, 2009, 12:35:04 PM

Title: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on July 19, 2009, 12:35:04 PM
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/resource.solutions.bbsccms-assets-cat-audio-solutions-pcmm10.shtml
http://www.soundonsound.com/news?NewsID=11803

USD$399
Due October.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: deadhoarse on July 19, 2009, 12:58:35 PM
Performance (hopefully) of the PCM-D50, but without the big built in mics? I'm in.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: H₂O on July 19, 2009, 01:48:16 PM
Pretty sweet!

Looks like it lacks the digi-in.

Being smaller a D50 and having a MicroSD slot I think it will give the R-9hr a run for the money!

I wonder how many AA batteries it will take and how long it will run for.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: audBall on July 19, 2009, 01:51:56 PM
Info with video from NAMM:  http://www.bradlinder.net/2009/07/sony-introduces-pcm-m10-handheld-pro.html
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mr qpl on July 19, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
http://emusician.com/news/sony_pcmm10/

another info page, still not real complete

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on July 19, 2009, 04:20:05 PM
At this webpage,

http://www.mingo-hmw.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=87561

there is a size comparison with the D50:

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: desertsky on July 19, 2009, 07:53:46 PM
I wonder why Sony hasn't included the option to record to DSD format in the D50 and new PCM-M10?  Sony themselves developed the DSD audio format, so you'd think they'd support the format in their own portable field recorders.  My Sony PS3 supports playback of DSD audio discs and the VAIO notebook I bought two summers ago includes apps for recording and playback of DSD discs, so it's not like Sony gave up on the format.   I currently use the Korg MR-1 and have been waiting for Korg to come out with a new model with improved battery life and replaces the internal hard drive with flash memory.  If the new Sony PCM-M10 supported DSD format I'd be all over it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Belexes on July 19, 2009, 08:24:16 PM
Info with video from NAMM:  http://www.bradlinder.net/2009/07/sony-introduces-pcm-m10-handheld-pro.html

I think I'll hold on to my D50.  This looks like a budget model for the poor musician.

From the link above:

"I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the primary difference between the PCM-D10 and PCM-D50 is that the new model features cheaper mics, preamps, and other components, although it is still made of metal, which makes this recorder more durable than some of the others on the market. The plastic mic jack doesn't look nearly as sturdy on this model as the metal one on the PCM-D50 though."
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on July 19, 2009, 11:18:14 PM
I'm definitely gonna hold onto my D50 as well.  But I think I'll add one of these to the line-up.  I CAN'T imagine that Sony would skimp on their internal preamp on this model.  I agree the built-in mics probably won't be as good as the D50.  Edit:  It appears to be nearly the exact size of the R-09HR, nice.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: guysonic on July 20, 2009, 06:44:11 AM
While still quite a bit away from shipping (late October?) I think we can count on Sony doing this right with quiet mic input lacking digital noise and fully reliable build.  No info on full features as owners manual is still in-process.  Not looking to be as small as newer R-09HR, but maybe a bit thinner like Olympus LS-10/11.

Like many here I live to know about, bench test, and eventually test drive the newest flash decks coming out.  Especially look forward to this model as Sony rarely disappoints in shipping a fully tested and well engineered deck.

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/NEW SONY PCM-M10.gif)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on July 20, 2009, 06:59:10 AM
Perhaps this is in essence the "RH-2" - if the preamp is as good as the RH-1, it should be a good replacement for those wanting to come out of MiniDisc but stay with Sony (despite everything...).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: colargol on July 20, 2009, 09:06:45 PM
This looks pretty good  :)
I see there's a remote input there... I wish they would come up with a remote like the one that was available for pcm-m1, I've missed that!

Dreaming of things, what if one of these companies (sony, edirol, olympus) came up with a really good recorder without mics and just line input, that would be great ;-)

-Colargol
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Belexes on July 20, 2009, 10:05:03 PM
They are designing these things with musicians in mind, not tapers, thus the inclusion of those internal mics.

At least this one doesn't have a roll cage on it.  :yack:
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: spcyrfc on July 21, 2009, 05:12:02 PM
if the pre's are comprable to the d50 and battery life is the same or at least close, i'll add this to the arsenal, and maybe get rid of the d50, which imo is nearly perfect for open taping.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: manamana on July 25, 2009, 02:43:10 PM
would be perfect with a balanced line in... I need a small deck that can take pro levels.

I hate setting the sax under 20 DB gain to get loud rock shows
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: DSatz on July 25, 2009, 03:10:57 PM
desertsky, just to answer your question, DSD has been "dead in the water" in the professional audio market for some time now--maybe two, three years already?--and as far as I'm aware, Sony has stopped promoting it.

In carefully controlled listening tests it failed to live up to the extravagant claims that were made for its sonic qualities; it turned out not to offer any detectable audible difference from linear PCM. It was far more cumbersome for studios to edit and process, and really just didn't offer any benefit other than to the coffers of certain manufacturers.

So it's gone--not altogether forgotten yet, but not widely mourned, either, I must say.

--best regards
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: a-dub on July 25, 2009, 05:21:16 PM
Being smaller a D50 and having a MicroSD slot I think it will give the R-9hr a run for the money!

Seems like Sony is being a little more flexible in the market. At least there's one less Sony accessory that you have to buy!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: SClassical on July 26, 2009, 10:18:58 PM
The D50 has gone down in price to give way to the upcoming M10...Now you can get a new one in ebay for $299.99...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Kindguy on July 27, 2009, 01:10:07 AM
The D50 has gone down in price to give way to the upcoming M10...Now you can get a new one in ebay for $299.99...

I have a bid in on one of those. Hope i win at that price.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on July 27, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
This device looks great.  Only wish it had XLR inputs w/P48, like the Marantz PMD 661... I would definitely buy one then.  As it is, I don't see much reason to get this over the R-09HR which I already own.  It is nice looking though.  8)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on July 28, 2009, 12:13:13 AM
The D50 has gone down in price to give way to the upcoming M10...Now you can get a new one in ebay for $299.99...

There doesn't appear to be any PCM-D50s selling on ebay for anywhere near that (I just looked). Seems to start at around USD$449, just like it is selling at B&H after requesting a 'better price'...

Seems to me they are adding to the line-up rather than replacing (no optical in or out, no movable mics, plastic mic and headphone jacks and what I'm guessing will be no rotary volume knob...), but time will tell - and of course many will be attracted to the lower-priced model just as they were when the PCM-D50 came out while the PCM-D1 was (and is) still selling.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Kindguy on July 28, 2009, 03:49:18 AM
The D50 has gone down in price to give way to the upcoming M10...Now you can get a new one in ebay for $299.99...

There doesn't appear to be any PCM-D50s selling on ebay for anywhere near that (I just looked). Seems to start at around USD$449, just like it is selling at B&H after requesting a 'better price'...

Seems to me they are adding to the line-up rather than replacing (no optical in or out, no movable mics, plastic mic and headphone jacks and what I'm guessing will be no rotary volume knob...), but time will tell - and of course many will be attracted to the lower-priced model just as they were when the PCM-D50 came out while the PCM-D1 was (and is) still selling.

Several d50's (5) on ebay starting at 299.99 we'll see if I win it at that or not.

Sony PCM-D50 Recorder - NEW!
Item condition:   New
Time left:   1 day 11 hours (Jul 29, 200912:06:54 PDT)
Bid history:   1 BidSee history
Current bid:   US $299.99
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on July 28, 2009, 05:00:39 AM
OK, I didn't see any until visiting ebay.com (instead of com.au, even though I searched worldwide, stores, etc)
I'd be extremely surprised that seller lets them go at that price. Outside of eBay I have seen no real price-slashings.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Matt Quinn on July 28, 2009, 07:59:58 PM

At least this one doesn't have a roll cage on it.  :yack:


LOL

phantom +t
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: sunjan on July 29, 2009, 03:20:41 AM
OK, I didn't see any until visiting ebay.com (instead of com.au, even though I searched worldwide, stores, etc)

Sorry about the threadjack, but this is one of my biggest grievances with ebay.
As tekdroid noticed, even selecting "worldwide" won't show you all results.

Some overseas items are hidden, for no apparent reason. After spending hours with ebay's live support, they admitted items are being hidden from searches if they don't comply to certain payment and shipping options of that particular country (courtesy of last years Paypal/bank transfer shakeup).

Fortunately, there is a workaround. Under Advanced search, select "Only show items located in Any country/region".
Logically, one would assume that this yields the same results as "Worldwide", but it doesn't!

Sample search for "Sony PCM D50" (incl. store inventory)

On ebay.com, using default basic search: 25 auctions, 16 store items = 41
On ebay.com, using Worldwide search: 25 auctions, 18 store items = 43
On ebay.com, using Any country/region: 25 auctions, 22 store items =47

On ebay.com.au, using default basic search: 14 auctions, 18 store items = 32
On ebay.com.au, using Worldwide search: 14 auctions, 18 store items = 32
On ebay.com.au, using Any country/region: 25 auctions, 22 store items =47

So you see, it doesn't really matter which national site you use when you search! As long as you use the "Any country/region" setting, you'll get the same results.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Massive Dynamic on July 30, 2009, 07:42:02 PM
Being smaller a D50 and having a MicroSD slot I think it will give the R-9hr a run for the money!

Seems like Sony is being a little more flexible in the market. At least there's one less Sony accessory that you have to buy!
When I was trying to decide between the Fostex FR-2le and the D-50, it was the cost of CF vs Memory Stick that made the decision easier.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on August 19, 2009, 12:07:03 AM
Didn't see anyone mention this hands-on demo on youtube of the M10 in real life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqLJzFC8Ikw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqLJzFC8Ikw)

Looks pretty good.  8)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: unclelouie on August 19, 2009, 08:27:24 PM

Despite initial reports of $399, B&H is showing it $299 (due in October still).

Those tiny MicroSD cards scare me off of this device. 4GB internal isn't enough, and I really don't want to screw around with MicroSD cards.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on August 19, 2009, 08:50:55 PM

Despite initial reports of $399, B&H is showing it $299 (due in October still).

Those tiny MicroSD cards scare me off of this device. 4GB internal isn't enough, and I really don't want to screw around with MicroSD cards.

Wow, $300 retail is great news!  What's the deal with MicroSD though, have people had bad experiences with it (I can't think of any recorders that use microsd though)?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: unclelouie on August 19, 2009, 09:55:39 PM
Wow, $300 retail is great news!  What's the deal with MicroSD though, have people had bad experiences with it (I can't think of any recorders that use microsd though)?

No other recorders use it. They are miniaturized SD cards that I've only seen used in cell phones.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on August 19, 2009, 10:22:17 PM
The Yamaha Pocketrak CX uses the micro SDHC card.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=5024457&CTID=228500

When I used the CX, I was surprised by how sturdy the micro SDHC
card was.  It's small, but manageable.  Micro SDHC is more expensive
than standard size SDHC.  A 16GB micro SDHC card costs about $45.

Flintstone
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: T.J. on August 19, 2009, 10:23:28 PM
how about a remote control accessory like they had with the M1?  >:D

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on August 19, 2009, 11:19:48 PM
IMHO, the microSDHC cards are just the guts of a full blown SD card... just be a smidge more gentle, and you will be fine... and you can more easily hide an extra in your wallet (in case you need more space in tight quarters)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on August 20, 2009, 08:23:48 AM
It's coming out in a burgandy color too:

(http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/5/1/9/610519.jpg)

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on August 20, 2009, 10:37:25 PM
Some info re: battery life from the senior product manager for Sony's pro audio group:

Quote
Though the final specification is not yet written, product manager Karl Kussmaul, demonstrating a working PCM-M10 on the NAMM Show floor, said that the product will offer battery life conservatively rated at 14 hours or more using AA alkaline batteries; NiMH rechargeables will also be accommodated.

Sounds pretty good, it should last longer with high-capacity NiMH rechargeables. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: a-dub on August 21, 2009, 12:36:01 AM
The burgandy definately looks appealing.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: manamana on August 22, 2009, 12:50:14 PM
Wow, $300 retail is great news!  What's the deal with MicroSD though, have people had bad experiences with it (I can't think of any recorders that use microsd though)?

No other recorders use it. They are miniaturized SD cards that I've only seen used in cell phones.

I've used a sandisk 8GB micro SDHC card in a micro SDHC>SDHC adapter in my r-09 w/ no problems. also in my D60. it's the same as a SDHC card, just smaller.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on August 22, 2009, 05:07:30 PM
Anyone care to speculate on the internal speakers being rotate-able?  Seems possible at least. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on August 22, 2009, 08:48:56 PM
Anyone care to speculate on the internal speakers being rotate-able?  Seems possible at least. 

The mics, you mean?
Yeah, the design gave me the impression that they might be, but I suspect it's just cosmetic, otherwise I think I would have seen them being moved in that Sony demo.

I think it's high time we got some slim Chinese clones of the Sony remote selling for USD $50, Sony's RM-PCM1, that will most likely work with this model. There are plenty of wired shutter releases and infrared remotes on eBay for all types of digital cameras for well under $10, I think there is an opportunity opening up for some third-party goodies for this class of recorders.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jmerin on August 24, 2009, 01:27:30 PM
does this have a digi in??
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on August 24, 2009, 03:04:39 PM
This is exactly what i have been wanting from sony, i will be on board from the start on this one, while the d50 is a very nice unit it was just a bit bulky for me , i predict this will be a big winner in the taper community, open and "not so open", finally it will probably put to rest the last of those holding onto those hi-md decks which are still great but lets face it solid state over discs with the same or better quality is a no brainer
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on August 24, 2009, 03:09:17 PM
This is exactly what i have been wanting from sony, i will be on board from the start on this one, while the d50 is a very nice unit it was just a bit bulky for me , i predict this will be a big winner in the taper community, open and "not so open", finally it will probably put to rest the last of those holding onto those hi-md decks which are still great but lets face it solid state over discs with the same or better quality is a no brainer
Yeah, I would like a smaller rig too.  I've got the D50, Edirol R09, and several MDs.  I find myself grabbing the MD or R09 when I go out for a walk or whatever.  I just want something to slip in the pocket and forget about.  Like a digital camera, it should be small enough to carry everywhere.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on August 24, 2009, 06:15:37 PM
does this have a digi in??

It will not have optical input (or output), but for USD$300 it seems like a sensible omission.
D50 ($450 with fluffy thing) if you need those features.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: junkyardt on August 24, 2009, 10:54:56 PM
i want to know if they've made the level knob tighter/harder to rotate in the M10. my biggest complaint with the D50 is that the level knob is very loose and when stealthing with it and putting it in my jeans pocket, after i've set the level where i want it, the level can easily get changed by the knob moving when sliding it in and out of pocket. it shouldn't be that sensitive/loose imo.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on August 25, 2009, 01:05:08 AM
i want to know if they've made the level knob tighter/harder to rotate in the M10. my biggest complaint with the D50 is that the level knob is very loose and when stealthing with it and putting it in my jeans pocket, after i've set the level where i want it, the level can easily get changed by the knob moving when sliding it in and out of pocket. it shouldn't be that sensitive/loose imo.



I'm with you 100% on that issue!  Have had to resort to small piece of electrical tape to keep it stable when stealthing...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: WiFiJeff on August 25, 2009, 08:34:01 AM
i want to know if they've made the level knob tighter/harder to rotate in the M10. my biggest complaint with the D50 is that the level knob is very loose and when stealthing with it and putting it in my jeans pocket, after i've set the level where i want it, the level can easily get changed by the knob moving when sliding it in and out of pocket. it shouldn't be that sensitive/loose imo.



I'm with you 100% on that issue!  Have had to resort to small piece of electrical tape to keep it stable when stealthing...

This was also an issue with the D1.  Clear Scotch tape also works, and lets you verify that you haven't moved anything.

Jeff
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on August 25, 2009, 11:16:37 AM
This was also an issue with the D1. 

Not completely a deal breaker for me, but definitely would make me reconsider getting an M10 if that is going to be an issue because I'm not down with taping down the dial.  :P
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: T.J. on August 25, 2009, 12:57:20 PM
I think it's high time we got some slim Chinese clones of the Sony remote selling for USD $50, Sony's RM-PCM1, that will most likely work with this model. There are plenty of wired shutter releases and infrared remotes on eBay for all types of digital cameras for well under $10, I think there is an opportunity opening up for some third-party goodies for this class of recorders.

hmm...that looks pretty sweet, but didn't the M1 used to have a remote that allowed you to monitor levels? maybe it would be compatible with this recorder?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: SClassical on August 25, 2009, 11:51:23 PM
M1 didn't come with a remote. It was the D100 that included the remote with the meters. But you can use the D100 remote with the M1 - that's what I used to do. The plug for the remote will not fit the M10 or any of the current/previous Sony solid state recorders.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: aaronji on August 26, 2009, 08:36:45 AM
IMHO, the microSDHC cards are just the guts of a full blown SD card... just be a smidge more gentle, and you will be fine... and you can more easily hide an extra in your wallet (in case you need more space in tight quarters)

I have a microSDHC in my mobile phone; to be honest, it is a little bit of a pain.  They are really tiny.  Sort of difficult to insert/remove, especially if the nails are freshly trimmed!  Maybe Sony has a more accessible slot, though.  And I would hate to drop one in the grass of an outdoor show or the floor of a darkened venue.  I guess you could just leave it in, and transfer straight from the recorder...I think the max card size is 16GB.  Not sure where I saw that*, but I will try to find it...

I hope Darktrain is right about this recorder!  I have seriously considered the D50, but it is a little large for me too.

*Edit to add:  This review on CNET (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10291362-1.html (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10291362-1.html)) says it maxes out at 20GB.  I assume that is 4GB internal plus a 16GB microSDHC.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on August 26, 2009, 09:28:39 AM
The flash memory slot in a cell phone has a little bump.  You have to push the micro SD card past the bump to insert it.  It's difficult by design to pull the card back out past the bump.  Fingernails or tweezers usually are needed to grab the micro SD card.

The Yamaha Pocketrak CS has a spring loaded slot for the micro SD card.  You push to insert, and push to unlock the spring and remove, just like using a standard SD card slot.  It's a lot easier than a cell phone.  No fingernails needed.

Looking at the "Sound on Sound" video, it appears to me that the M10 uses the same type of slot that the Yamaha has.  So there should be no problem inserting and ejecting the memory card.  Finding the micro SD card on the floor of a dimly-lit club after you drop it is another matter!

Flintstone
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: aaronji on August 26, 2009, 10:18:17 AM
My phone has the same spring configuration that you are describing.  But it is recessed such that even when "sprung" the microSDHC is very hard to grasp...Hopefully, Sony designed this recorder a little better!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on August 27, 2009, 07:52:19 PM
The plug for the remote will not fit the M10 or any of the current/previous Sony solid state recorders.

I hope Sony get to releasing some cool remotes. They aren't even trying to impress is my current impression.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: colargol on August 31, 2009, 02:18:44 PM
Hi!

Sony's site (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/ (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/)) says this one's line input will have

"Input impedance: 22k ohms; Minimum input level: 500mV; Rated input level: 2.0V"

while the edirol R-09HR has

"Line input: 15 k ohms, Line input: 2 dBu (Default input level)"

Anyone care to tell me what this means in normal language? Would this enable the M10 to handle a hotter signal than the edirol?

-Colargol
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on August 31, 2009, 06:04:45 PM
Hi!

Sony's site (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/ (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/)) says this one's line input will have

"Input impedance: 22k ohms; Minimum input level: 500mV; Rated input level: 2.0V"

while the edirol R-09HR has

"Line input: 15 k ohms, Line input: 2 dBu (Default input level)"

Anyone care to tell me what this means in normal language? Would this enable the M10 to handle a hotter signal than the edirol?

-Colargol


just based on all of sonys other equipment, yes
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Nick's Picks on September 01, 2009, 08:03:08 AM
It's coming out in a burgandy color too:

(http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/5/1/9/610519.jpg)



oooh, same color as my Skylark.  that seals it.
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2590/58/99/868490091/n868490091_6228128_7019092.jpg)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: aaronji on September 01, 2009, 09:15:22 AM
This thing is pretty small too.  Basically, the same size as the R09HR but a half a centimeter thinner.  Nice.  And much smaller than the D50, although the specs aren't as good...

I am curious if the whole body is aluminum, or if it is just the front/back plates and the center part (silver in the photos) is plastic.  I thought it was all aluminum, but, looking at the photos, it seems I might have been wrong?

Oh, and that's a nice ride, Nick!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jlykos on September 01, 2009, 09:19:07 AM
Hi!

Sony's site (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/ (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/)) says this one's line input will have

"Input impedance: 22k ohms; Minimum input level: 500mV; Rated input level: 2.0V"

while the edirol R-09HR has

"Line input: 15 k ohms, Line input: 2 dBu (Default input level)"

Anyone care to tell me what this means in normal language? Would this enable the M10 to handle a hotter signal than the edirol?

-Colargol


just based on all of sonys other equipment, yes

You may want to look up Guysonic's testing from the D50 and compare the specs of the D50 and the M10 to judge off of that.  If I recall correctly, he said that the D50 could accept a full line level signal, which none of the cheaper portable recorders could.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on September 01, 2009, 11:15:09 AM
I am curious if the whole body is aluminum, or if it is just the front/back plates and the center part (silver in the photos) is plastic.  I thought it was all aluminum, but, looking at the photos, it seems I might have been wrong?

I think I read that the body is mostly/all metal.  Maybe it was that demo from that video. 

If I recall correctly, he said that the D50 could accept a full line level signal, which none of the cheaper portable recorders could.

This will be really useful for patching from a SBD.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: colargol on September 01, 2009, 12:12:44 PM
Hi!

Sony's site (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/ (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/)) says this one's line input will have

"Input impedance: 22k ohms; Minimum input level: 500mV; Rated input level: 2.0V"

while the edirol R-09HR has

"Line input: 15 k ohms, Line input: 2 dBu (Default input level)"

Anyone care to tell me what this means in normal language? Would this enable the M10 to handle a hotter signal than the edirol?

-Colargol


just based on all of sonys other equipment, yes

You may want to look up Guysonic's testing from the D50 and compare the specs of the D50 and the M10 to judge off of that.  If I recall correctly, he said that the D50 could accept a full line level signal, which none of the cheaper portable recorders could.

Well, this is what the Sony site says about the D50:

"Input impedance: 40k ohm; Minimum input level: 450mV; Rated input level: 2.0V"

... so I suppose there's quite a difference between the d50 and the M10

-colargol
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: unclelouie on September 01, 2009, 04:31:58 PM
"Input impedance: 22k ohms; Minimum input level: 500mV; Rated input level: 2.0V"

while the edirol R-09HR has

"Line input: 15 k ohms, Line input: 2 dBu (Default input level)"

Anyone care to tell me what this means in normal language? Would this enable the M10 to handle a hotter signal than the edirol?

in normal language:

1) 22kohm: it's telling you that the input is high impedance, so you can connect a mic without worrying about signal loss. Connecting a low-impedance device to a high-impedance is called "bridging" and it's a good thing. Generally, good quality mics are low impedance (200 ohm, 600 ohm etc.), but cheap mics can be higher, although still less than 22 kohm.

2) 500mV: the minimum input level is how much signal voltage the device needs in order to write something other than zero. If you run a self-powered mic or a preamp, don't worry. Sony makes some mics for pod-casting, like the MS-907, that they'll probably encourage you to use with this thing.

3) 2.0V: the rated voltage, and I'm guessing here so someone may correct this, is probably the voltage rating for clipping the ADC. It should, therefore, be able to handle a line-level signal. (I wonder if this is peak or RMS, my gut tells me peak).

4) 2 dBu: I'm no audio expert, but I belive dBu is used to describe the RMS of the signal. If you don't know, RMS is Root Mean Square, which is a way of describing the magnitude of a varying quantity, or in this case a varying audio signal. When working with audio, I often think of it as the average loudness of the recording. IIRC, most pro audio line output is +4dBu, which means that the signal coming out has an RMS around 1.25V. I always thought that the (American) standard for line level was +4dBu for balanced loads and +2dBu for unbalanced loads so I think this is a normal rating for professional equipment. Guysonic would know better. Anyway, it's basically saying that it can handle a line-level signal.

Frankly, I'm not sure the M10 will give the R-09HR much competition. Edirol makes a great recorder and, as I've said before, the MicroSD card is an immediate turn off for me. They're too easy to lose. Also, while Sony has made great preamps, they must have skimped somewhere on this recorder to make it so cheap:hopefully they kept the same preamp from the D-50, and skimped elsewhere
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on September 01, 2009, 04:44:59 PM
"Input impedance: 22k ohms; Minimum input level: 500mV; Rated input level: 2.0V"

while the edirol R-09HR has

"Line input: 15 k ohms, Line input: 2 dBu (Default input level)"

Anyone care to tell me what this means in normal language? Would this enable the M10 to handle a hotter signal than the edirol?

in normal language:

1) 22kohm: it's telling you that the input is high impedance, so you can connect a mic without worrying about signal loss. Connecting a low-impedance device to a high-impedance is called "bridging" and it's a good thing. Generally, good quality mics are low impedance (200 ohm, 600 ohm etc.), but cheap mics can be higher, although still less than 22 kohm.

2) 500mV: the minimum input level is how much signal voltage the device needs in order to write something other than zero. If you run a self-powered mic or a preamp, don't worry. Sony makes some mics for pod-casting, like the MS-907, that they'll probably encourage you to use with this thing.

3) 2.0V: the rated voltage, and I'm guessing here so someone may correct this, is probably the voltage rating for clipping the ADC. It should, therefore, be able to handle a line-level signal. (I wonder if this is peak or RMS, my gut tells me peak).

4) 2 dBu: I'm no audio expert, but I belive dBu is used to describe the RMS of the signal. If you don't know, RMS is Root Mean Square, which is a way of describing the magnitude of a varying quantity, or in this case a varying audio signal. When working with audio, I often think of it as the average loudness of the recording. IIRC, most pro audio line output is +4dBu, which means that the signal coming out has an RMS around 1.25V. I always thought that the (American) standard for line level was +4dBu for balanced loads and +2dBu for unbalanced loads so I think this is a normal rating for professional equipment. Guysonic would know better. Anyway, it's basically saying that it can handle a line-level signal.

Frankly, I'm not sure the M10 will give the R-09HR much competition. Edirol makes a great recorder and, as I've said before, the MicroSD card is an immediate turn off for me. They're too easy to lose. Also, while Sony has made great preamps, they must have skimped somewhere on this recorder to make it so cheap:hopefully they kept the same preamp from the D-50, and skimped elsewhere

If the preamp is as good (or near) as the D50, this will be great.  The preamps on every other flash recorder are poor, either not enough gain (R09) or noise, glitches, etc in the signal.  This is one aspect where I trust Sony to deliver.  I'll live with inconveniences (micro SD, memory stick) to get a decent analog stage.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: unclelouie on September 01, 2009, 05:46:35 PM
The R-09HR was a big step up from the issues that the R-09 had. I remember some posts of tests that showed some odd spikes way up around 20kHz, but it's inaudible, and way below the noise floor of some of the other recorders like the h2, h4, R-09 etc. Also, the fostex FR-2LE is another great flash recorder that gets overlooked because it ain't exactly small.  As far as tiny recorders go, then yes, the M10 has potential if they stick with the preamp from the D50. I can't deny the importance of a good preamp and low noise floor - especially if you do most of your taping outside a noisy bar. (Which I do)

Incidentally, does anyone know of a page (or thread) that compares ALL the flash recorders in a clear, concise manner? So many new recorders have entered the market over the past year, and most pages I find focus on the R-09, R-09HR, MTII, H2, and H4.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: printguy on September 01, 2009, 05:51:20 PM
Incidentally, does anyone know of a page (or thread) that compares ALL the flash recorders in a clear, concise manner? So many new recorders have entered the market over the past year, and most pages I find focus on the R-09, R-09HR, MTII, H2, and H4.



Try this one: http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/recorders/chart.php

Is it "ALL" the flash recorders out there? No. But it's a good summary nonetheless.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jlykos on September 01, 2009, 06:46:48 PM
Frankly, I'm not sure the M10 will give the R-09HR much competition. Edirol makes a great recorder and, as I've said before, the MicroSD card is an immediate turn off for me. They're too easy to lose. Also, while Sony has made great preamps, they must have skimped somewhere on this recorder to make it so cheap:hopefully they kept the same preamp from the D-50, and skimped elsewhere

From what I understand, the major cost savings is in the microphones and in some components.  The D50 has surprisingly good microphones and while nobody has heard the ones in the M10, I would be very surprised that they would deliver anywhere the same performance given the photos I have seen.  Also, it looks like the M10 has plastic input jacks while the D50 has metal ones.

Some major selling points were that the D50 uses four separate circuit boards (including one dedicated to recording) to minimize interference and two A/D converters for the limiter.  I do not know if this level of "overengineering" will be utilized in the M10.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on September 04, 2009, 07:42:57 AM
Not sure if this is already reported, but the M10 now appears to have a remote as a supplied accessory.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: daku on September 04, 2009, 02:37:11 PM
Not sure if this is already reported, but the M10 now appears to have a remote as a supplied accessory.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/

They also stated that the microphones are omnidirectional so this is more like Marantz PMD620.
I have PCM-D50 and it works fine but recordings need some work in post if I want decent document.
The good thing is that it fits in national geographic NG4567 so I can, go for it always.

The question is also, does it have SBM dithering it can be sweet sometimes...

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on September 06, 2009, 08:51:51 AM
Not sure if this is already reported, but the M10 now appears to have a remote as a supplied accessory.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/

Unexpected! Nice for a freebie. They must be looking to get rid of stock :p
I noticed they added WMA and AAC playback support. MP3 recording support too. I guess they paid out that MP3 recording royalty :p

Happy to hear the headphone output is pretty good (20mW + 20mW into 16 ohms), the D50's is was great and 25mW+ 25mW, apparently. 16GB el cheapo MicroSD should be a joy (would hardly need to take it out).

Key Control sounds interesting.
Digital Limiter and Digital Low Cut Filter. I wonder if they differ.

For sure the mics will be cut-down. I doubt preamp will be.
Internal speaker is cute. Cross-memory recording. Auto-level control feature added, too. Some nice additions to make up for the omissions.

2xAA batteries mean battery life will probably be less than the D50. Am I the only one that thinks Sony should supply no batteries rather than disposables? Gah.

Anyway, I'm excited. Sounds like good value recorder for the masses.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on September 09, 2009, 09:53:50 AM
Guitar Center has a arrival date listed as Sept. 28th, 299.00 and free shipping and you can preorder. Waiting to see if someone is offering the same deal but with a extra card.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: drewloo on September 11, 2009, 09:31:31 AM
Not sure if they've already been doing so but I just got an email from B&H stating they're accepting pre-orders now, shipped first-come first-served. 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/sitem/sku=638090&is=REG&bi=E15
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on September 11, 2009, 02:28:19 PM
Can't wait till someone gets one of these and gives a nice review of it.  8)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: eman on September 11, 2009, 03:07:00 PM
2xAA batteries mean battery life will probably be less than the D50. Am I the only one that thinks Sony should supply no batteries rather than disposables? Gah.
New AA rechargeables are rated 2450mAh, two of them would be 4.9Ah. That's a considerable number of electrons, plus they are easier to change, and you can keep as many as you like in your pocket. I actually look for things that are AA powered as I have so many already, for my bike lights, flashlights, camera, and remotes. Buying "disposables" is borderline criminal as well as stupid in this day and age.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 11, 2009, 04:16:16 PM
2xAA batteries mean battery life will probably be less than the D50. Am I the only one that thinks Sony should supply no batteries rather than disposables? Gah.
New AA rechargeables are rated 2450mAh, two of them would be 4.9Ah. That's a considerable number of electrons, plus they are easier to change, and you can keep as many as you like in your pocket. I actually look for things that are AA powered as I have so many already, for my bike lights, flashlights, camera, and remotes. Buying "disposables" is borderline criminal as well as stupid in this day and age.

You've misread this.  The issue is that the new machine will be powered by 2XAA rather than 4XAA as is the D50, which gets very long recording time with four AAs.  Two may not give as good results.  And the complaint is that Sony gives you two disposable batteries with the recorder, what's the point of that?

Jeff
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: eman on September 11, 2009, 04:48:50 PM
Oh. Nevermind.

But yeah, 2 AA's should be good enough for anyone's musical set, hopefully, then you pull out the next set. Without phantom power it shouldn't suck them down very fast. Worth it, I think, for portability when you are recording only one show/set. Put the disposables in the TV remote I guess where they will last the longest.

I like it, but I really am not too thrilled with mini inputs only. I haven't seen the other side or a list if I/O but doesn't it look like that's all there is? A nice stealth unit, but I'm looking for one that I can use stealth or bit bucket or ideally for everything. The PMD 661 with a mod is looking like that, for twice the $$. Does anyone think it will be possible to take the USB out from a UA5 or something to use this as a bit bucket?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Artstar on September 13, 2009, 12:05:12 AM
New AA rechargeables are rated 2450mAh, two of them would be 4.9Ah.

Not quite. The M10 will be a 3V device, not 1.5V (or 2.4/1.2V when accounting for rechargeables). Therefore, your current capacity will still be 2.45Ah since the batteries will be operating in series, not parallel.

Quote
plus they are easier to change, and you can keep as many as you like in your pocket.

Agreed. Though I prefer to travel light so the less I have in my pockets, the less any metal detector may pick up on at a gig too. In which case, I just change the batteries beforehand if I've done about 24 hours of recording in total.

Quote
Buying "disposables" is borderline criminal as well as stupid in this day and age.

I prefer to use the Energizer lithium AA's rather than rechargeables given their running time. Guilty as charged.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Artstar on September 13, 2009, 12:30:03 AM
For sure the mics will be cut-down. I doubt preamp will be.

I'm going to speculate that it has been. Looking at the specs, signal to noise ratio is 87dB as opposed to 93dB and THD is 0.03% as opposed to 0.01%. That suggests the preamps have been downgraded somewhat or it's the same preamps but just the byproduct of miniaturisation.

The internal mics don't seem to report much on their frequency response beyond their upper and lower limits. It would be nice to see just how flat the curve is. Otherwise, in terms of SPL, the M10 seems to have the upper hand there with 123dB compared to the D50's 120dB.

Quote
Cross-memory recording.

Something which would have been nice with the D50 but I'm happily using an 8GB MS-HC in it so that's sorted that out for me.

Quote
2xAA batteries mean battery life will probably be less than the D50.

Perhaps but depending on how much current it consumes at its lower voltage compared to the D50, I doubt it would be anything significant to be quite honest. Running time is not proportional to voltage requirements but rather current requirements.

Quote
Anyway, I'm excited. Sounds like good value recorder for the masses.

It does look tempting but I'd need to probably test one out before I decide to dive in. If the sound is at least comparable to the MZ-RH1 I used to have, then it may wind up replacing my D50 after all since it's a good compromise between sound and size. Listening back to my RH1 recordings, the D50 has left me a little spoiled in that regard and I've preferred it over my old RH1 in a big way. Otherwise, I'll persist with wearing long thick material shirts to hide the massive lump on my belt! :)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on September 13, 2009, 12:54:23 AM
^^ should be interesting to hear the M10.  If it is anything close to the D50, it will be a great portable.  I'll probably end up with both, the D50 for planned music recording, and the M10 to keep in my bag for impromptu recording.  I think anything equal to or better than minidisc is fine.  After that the limiting factor is the mics.

 Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on September 13, 2009, 06:37:21 AM
Listening back to my RH1 recordings, the D50 has left me a little spoiled in that regard and I've preferred it over my old RH1 in a big way.

Everyone's ears are different, but I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The RH1 sounds fabulous (even in Hi-SP mode). I'd still like to get a D50 sometime for it's features and battery life (and no Sonic Stage), but I wouldn't be expecting to hear any difference in sound, let alone a big one. When done right my RH1 recordings sound as good as my Korg MR-1/MixPre ones.

I think anything equal to or better than minidisc is fine.  After that the limiting factor is the mics.

I'm with Richard.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: SClassical on September 14, 2009, 12:17:32 PM
If we are planning to use external preamp and mics the only thing to worry about the quality of the A/D converter?

From my understanding the only time to worry about the preamp quality is when you plug in basic mic that has a 3.5" connector into the mic-in jack. If running professional mics (that uses XLR and runs on P48) with an external preamp into the line-in of the D10 all we need is the good A/D. If you're not adjusting the mic level on the D10 you don't really care about a noisy internal preamp. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Todd R on September 14, 2009, 03:50:33 PM
You're wrong -- just kidding. :P

Maybe it is just semantics about what you mean that it just needs to have a good A/D stage, but even going line-in, the recorder will have some type of analog circuitry (e.g., op amps) to get the line input level to the correct level for the A/D converter chip to use.  That analog circuitry as well as the A/D chip itself can affect the signal quality.

The external preamp you're talking about using would probably have a greater effect on your resulting recording, but you'd still want to have a good analog front end, as well as A/D conversion, inside the M10.

That said, I think the analog front end and particularly the line-in is very good on the D50, so I think it works great with an external preamp, which is how I use mine.  Hopefully the M10 will have an analog front end that is on par with the D50.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: prof_peabody on September 17, 2009, 03:09:52 PM
Looks interesting.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on September 20, 2009, 06:10:53 PM
OK  I went ahead and preordered my M-10. I was gonna hold off but I couldn't wait.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: koops on September 22, 2009, 09:13:44 AM
Anyone know if the digital limiter is the same one as in the PCM D50?  Also, are there any audio samples on the web at all?  I've had the fortune to use a few portable recorders in the past (Microtrack, R1, H4, H2, R09), mainly for on-location recording, and the lack of a decent limiter is my main issue.  If the mics are as good as these other recorders and the limiter is taken from the D50, I'm definately gonna get one.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on September 22, 2009, 02:10:16 PM
Now available: PCM-M10 microphone frequency response. The pdf is attached below.

Looks like there's a choice of microphone angles.

Here is the site:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on September 22, 2009, 09:11:44 PM
Looks like there's a choice of microphone angles.

Ah, so those mini-domes are movable.
Great news.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Kevin T on September 23, 2009, 10:11:36 AM
Are they ? or did they just re angle the whole unit ?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: JasonSobel on September 23, 2009, 10:22:55 AM
Looks like there's a choice of microphone angles.

Ah, so those mini-domes are movable.
Great news.

Are they ? or did they just re angle the whole unit ?

are you guys interpreting the 0 degrees, 90 degrees, and 180 degree lines on the frequency chart to mean that the mics are moveable?  I don't think that is what it's saying at all.  The graph is just showing the frequency response for sound coming from different angles.  based on the graph, it looks like the internal mics are mostly omni in the lower frequencies, but much more directional (cardiod?) in the upper frequencies.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on September 23, 2009, 10:59:21 AM
are you guys interpreting the 0 degrees, 90 degrees, and 180 degree lines on the frequency chart to mean that the mics are moveable?  I don't think that is what it's saying at all.  The graph is just showing the frequency response for sound coming from different angles.  based on the graph, it looks like the internal mics are mostly omni in the lower frequencies, but much more directional (cardiod?) in the upper frequencies.

I think you're right, the description says the mics are omnis and so it wouldn't make much sense to have them 'swivelable.'
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: aaronji on September 23, 2009, 11:05:32 AM
are you guys interpreting the 0 degrees, 90 degrees, and 180 degree lines on the frequency chart to mean that the mics are moveable?  I don't think that is what it's saying at all.  The graph is just showing the frequency response for sound coming from different angles.  based on the graph, it looks like the internal mics are mostly omni in the lower frequencies, but much more directional (cardiod?) in the upper frequencies.

It says on the Sony site that the mics are omnidirectional...I figured that the decreased response at the higher frequencies was a result of the recorder's relatively large body blocking higher frequencies off-axis.  I read somewhere (not sure where, though) that a perfect omni would have an infinitesimally small diameter, and that, as the diameter increases, the frequency at which off-axis sound is rolled-off decreases.  It looks from the photos like the mics don't face straight ahead, so even 0 degrees is essentially off-axis.  That would explain the graph, assuming I am not missing something!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on September 27, 2009, 11:55:03 AM
Guitar center now says for preorder due in stock  10/15/2009 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: koops on September 28, 2009, 03:15:21 PM
Anyone managed to get hold of the manual yet?  There's a link to a .pdf on the Sony website but it doesn't seem to be working (http://ws.sel.sony.com/PIPWebServices/RetrievePublicAsset/StepID/SEL-asset-177805/original/PCM-M10%20Manual.pdf).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jeffee on September 28, 2009, 08:12:39 PM
Anyone managed to get hold of the manual yet?  There's a link to a .pdf on the Sony website but it doesn't seem to be working (http://ws.sel.sony.com/PIPWebServices/RetrievePublicAsset/StepID/SEL-asset-177805/original/PCM-M10%20Manual.pdf).

Yes.
http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/11777-PCMM10%20Operation.pdf

-Jeff
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on September 29, 2009, 09:47:32 AM
Seeing this pic of the battery compartment surprised me that the M10 is that small. Very nice.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on September 29, 2009, 09:56:00 AM
Seeing this pic of the battery compartment surprised me that the M10 is that small. Very nice.

Yeah, surprisingly small!  Looks comparable to the R-09HR. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: sunjan on September 30, 2009, 06:26:36 AM
Yeah, surprisingly small!  Looks comparable to the R-09HR.

More or less exactly the same size as the R-09HR. I created a sizeasy for them:
http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/25751-Tascam-DR-07-vs-Sony-PCM-M10-vs-Edirol-R-09HR-vs-Sanyo-ICR-PS503RM
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Craig T on September 30, 2009, 10:21:39 AM
That graphic isn't accurate.  I have the r09hr and dr07 and the dr07 is taller/longer.

Yeah, surprisingly small!  Looks comparable to the R-09HR.

More or less exactly the same size as the R-09HR. I created a sizeasy for them:
http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/25751-Tascam-DR-07-vs-Sony-PCM-M10-vs-Edirol-R-09HR-vs-Sanyo-ICR-PS503RM
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: koops on September 30, 2009, 06:52:19 PM
Thanks for the link to the manual Jeff, unfortunately it doesn't specify how the Limiter works (whether it's the same system as the D50) but it looks pretty nifty on the whole.  Just seen they're releasing a white or silver (can't tell) model in Japan - http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_gallery.php?id=18982&img_name=PCM_M10_003.jpg (http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_gallery.php?id=18982&img_name=PCM_M10_003.jpg)

I personally can't wait to read the reviews.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jeffee on October 01, 2009, 12:04:08 AM
Thanks for the link to the manual Jeff, unfortunately it doesn't specify how the Limiter works (whether it's the same system as the D50) but it looks pretty nifty on the whole.  Just seen they're releasing a white or silver (can't tell) model in Japan - http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_gallery.php?id=18982&img_name=PCM_M10_003.jpg (http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_gallery.php?id=18982&img_name=PCM_M10_003.jpg)

I personally can't wait to read the reviews.

I'm glad if it was helpful ..  Yeah, I'm guessing the limiter is the same as the D-50 because the manual says it provides 12 db worth of protection, same as the D-50, but obviously I'm not sure.

One thing I'm a bit skeptical about is that the manual says that a pair of batteries may last around 4 months if you don't even use the unit.  Sometimes I don't use a recorder for awhile, and other times frequently, and I'd rather just leave batteries in like you can with the D-50.  It's just a minor gripe, I know ...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: H₂O on October 01, 2009, 02:25:29 PM
The manual says the unit will last 28hours on 2 AA batteries when recording 24/96
 
That is insane!!  If true that is incredible!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on October 03, 2009, 12:03:08 PM
To hold 28 hours worth of stereo 24/48, You'd need about 30GB of storage space.  A 32 GB MicroSD card was announced by SanDisk a few months ago, and should be shipping by the end of 2009.

So sometime soon you'll be able to hold the capacity to record for 28 hours in a 4.5 in x 2.5 in x 1 inch package, no need to change battery or memory card.  Cool!

Flintstone
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 06, 2009, 10:14:14 PM
The manual says the unit will last 28hours on 2 AA batteries when recording 24/96
 
That is insane!! 

Even half of that would be impressive, but over 20 hours, wow...

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 08, 2009, 10:40:34 PM
I picked up my SONY PCM-M10 today. First impression is that it's very nice. Well-built and nicely designed. All the buttons and switches feel good in use.

Here are a couple of quick recordings.

The piano is an old (1923) Heintzman, a small (5'11") grand. It's creaky, and also hasn't been tuned yet for the change of season.

So my piano's out of tune, and my playing's rusty, etc....

Recorded at 24/96, internal mics, low mic sensitivity setting, manual record, level @ 3.0.

Level may be too low.

The M10 is set on the piano's lowered music stand, facing in towards the strings.

For one recording, the top is down. For the other, it's part way up -- on the half-stick.

http://www.box.net/shared/mc97656je5

http://www.box.net/shared/7rrv33aqpn
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 08, 2009, 11:13:37 PM
I picked up my SONY PCM-M10 today.

Cool, didn't know it was out yet!  Feel free to post some pics.  :P
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on October 08, 2009, 11:14:44 PM
I picked up my SONY PCM-M10 today.

Cool, didn't know it was out yet!  Feel free to post some pics.  :P

And where did you get it?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 09, 2009, 01:19:53 AM
I picked up my SONY PCM-M10 today.

Cool, didn't know it was out yet!  Feel free to post some pics.  :P

And where did you get it?

I got it from here:

http://www.dvsource.ca/
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 09, 2009, 11:59:47 AM
I picked up my SONY PCM-M10 today.

Cool, didn't know it was out yet!  Feel free to post some pics.  :P

Here are a few pics to show the size of the m10:

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: drewloo on October 09, 2009, 08:02:13 PM
 :drool:   thx!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Nick's Picks on October 10, 2009, 07:53:20 AM
thats sexy.
does this sucker have a toslink input like the other sony decks??
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bgalizio on October 10, 2009, 11:36:13 AM
I'd love to hear the line-in compared to the R-09HR. And also some testing to see if it can handle a hot SBD signal.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 10, 2009, 11:42:11 AM
thats sexy.
does this sucker have a toslink input like the other sony decks??

No, unfortunately, just USB -- but it's very fast. Don't know if it was my imagination, but downloading files seemed especially quick.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 10, 2009, 12:24:21 PM
Here's a pretty good carrying case for the M10.

It's a Kodak (model 123-0671) found at my local Canadian Tire store ($9.99), and it's also on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Kodak-Slim-select-digital-cameras/dp/B0013HY3Q6/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1255126661&sr=1-18

It fits the Sony like a glove, and the closer is a magnet rather than velcro. (Not sure if the magnet would affect the memory cards....)

The top has a hole in it, directly between the mic and line inputs, so you can fit an input plug by slightly pushing aside the top of the case.

The sides are open for access to phones/line out, as well as leaving the internal mics exposed for recording while in the case.

And there's a belt loop on the back.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 10, 2009, 01:23:53 PM
Great pics, thanks for posting them!  How is the gain dial in terms of how much resistance to turn it to change levels?  Some people had reported that the D50's gain dial turned too easily so I'm curious how the M10's dial is.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 10, 2009, 05:31:37 PM
Great pics, thanks for posting them!  How is the gain dial in terms of how much resistance to turn it to change levels?  Some people had reported that the D50's gain dial turned too easily so I'm curious how the M10's dial is.

There's actually a lot of resistance, and it wouldn't be easily budged in pocket or case.

Also, part of the frame that encircles the body of the M10 goes over the gain dial, so that only the top and bottom portions of the wheel are exposed.

There's another useful bit: when you turn on the unit, you push the power switch towards you and hold. It takes only a second for the M10 to light up. But when you're turning it off, and you repeat the maneuver of pushing and holding the switch, it takes about three seconds to turn off. So less likely to have it accidentally power down by knocking it.

Of course, there's also a hold switch, which you engage by pushing the power switch in the opposite direction.

One thing to watch out for: the speed control is a switch on the side. I turned it on by accident and got a real scare. My recording of rain sounded like a ring modulated Jamaican steel band on acid.

It was playing back at 30% slower speed, and it gave me a minute of terror thinking I'd have to send the unit back!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 11, 2009, 06:35:31 PM
There's actually a lot of resistance, and it wouldn't be easily budged in pocket or case.

Also, part of the frame that encircles the body of the M10 goes over the gain dial, so that only the top and bottom portions of the wheel are exposed.

Cool, thanks for the info!  Looks like a great little recorder.  If I didn't have the R-09HR I would have a tough time choosing between the two.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: detroitblues on October 13, 2009, 09:53:01 AM
we now have the windscreen for this new model at  gigwigs.com or ebay.     thank you
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on October 14, 2009, 09:13:12 AM
Just got a email from Guitar Center that they are instock so I ordered one, can't wait to get this thing and give it a field test.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Jamos on October 15, 2009, 12:28:01 AM
Nice, I should be picking up mine tomorrow or on Friday...
Just saw that they are selling a "red, glossy" version as well that has a kind of cranberry colored faceplate.

Anyway, I'll post my opinion of it after I get a chance to play with it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on October 15, 2009, 03:58:41 PM
I called my local Guitar Center to see if my preorder was in yet.
it wasnt. He called to see its status and was told they moved the date back to November 11th. (?) I am still hoping I can get it before Dylan on Oct 23.

Update
 I called to find out more and found out they have 20 of the black ones in stock just waiting on the glossy red ones to come in.
I decided to go with a black one I am thinking the red may be a little less stealthy if in veiw.   
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 16, 2009, 04:23:00 PM
I'm going to try out my M10 at a live venue either tonight or tomorrow.

Any suggestions about the best format for posting the results?

I'll probably record at 24/96, but in order to post a recording of any length, I guess I'll have to convert it to MP3.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on October 16, 2009, 04:37:18 PM
Are you going to use the internal mics?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 16, 2009, 04:39:44 PM
I'm going to try out my M10 at a live venue either tonight or tomorrow.

Any suggestions about the best format for posting the results?

I'll probably record at 24/96, but in order to post a recording of any length, I guess I'll have to convert it to MP3.

Ah... no you don't!  If you're posting a band that is on the Live Music Archive, then you can upload 24bit or 16bit flac.  Of course, mp3 would be fine if you're planning to put it on send space or mega upload for people to download from directly. 

Looking forward to hearing your results.  8)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on October 16, 2009, 04:40:40 PM
I just received this unit.  Excellent in all aspects.  I love the "standby" feature.  Just hit record and you're running.  No need to turn it on or off.

Internal mics are amazing.  *Extremely* low noise.  It is quieter than 20dBA, probably much quieter than this.  I can't believe how good this is for ambient recording.

It would be worthwhile to build a combined baffle/windscreen for this thing, to improve stereo separation.

I have not tried mics on loud sources yet.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 16, 2009, 05:40:10 PM
Are you going to use the internal mics?

I may have to because the venue is small and I don't know the band.

I plan to record some of their set without their noticing, and then ask.

I'll bring along an external mic (probably AT822), just in case they don't mind.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 16, 2009, 05:43:56 PM
I guess I'll have to convert it to MP3.

Ah... no you don't!  If you're posting a band that is on the Live Music Archive, then you can upload 24bit or 16bit flac.  Of course, mp3 would be fine if you're planning to put it on send space or mega upload for people to download from directly. 

Looking forward to hearing your results.  8)

How do I put it on the Live Music Archive?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 16, 2009, 05:48:23 PM
How do I put it on the Live Music Archive?

The first step would be to find out if the band is part of the LMA.  Easiest way is to just search for the band's name on the website: http://www.archive.org/details/etree (http://www.archive.org/details/etree)

If they do allow their shows to be uploaded to LMA, there's a standardized way that shows should be uploaded, but that can be found in the taperchat section thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,126960.0.html (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,126960.0.html)

There's a bit of a learning curve, but it is not too bad.  Ask for help from users and two of the LMA mods in this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127621.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127621.0)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 16, 2009, 05:57:56 PM
How do I put it on the Live Music Archive?

The first step would be to find out if the band is part of the LMA.  Easiest way is to just search for the band's name on the website: http://www.archive.org/details/etree (http://www.archive.org/details/etree)


They're not there. So I guess I'll have to upload to another site. Which is the easiest free one that allows large file sizes?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on October 16, 2009, 06:06:11 PM
Quote
It would be worthwhile to build a combined baffle/windscreen for this thing, to improve stereo separation.
Remember that in post-production it is simple to use a VST effect such as Voxengo MSED to widen the stereo image using M/S techniques - as long as there is some separation in the original recording, you can widen it considerably later (or even vary the width in different parts of the performance according to circumstances).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 17, 2009, 02:58:18 AM
I did some recording tonight of bands in a few clubs.

The M10 looks so much like a cell phone, that I think most people who noticed me holding it probably thought I was text messaging.

The M10 has surprisingly little handling noise.

I'll try to post some samples tomorrow.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: patchen on October 17, 2009, 12:34:23 PM
Hi, this is my first post here.  I do mostly field recordings but this forum is a great resource none the less.  Just picked up the pcm-m10 and thought I'd post a couple findings. tests were done with a pcm-m10, a microtrack1, mixpre and pair of AT3031's.

- even though the noise floor is about the same as my microtrack1, it sounds noisier because it's noise is just about perfect white noise which is more audible than the darker noise of the microtrack.

-noise floor sits around -76db using the line in, this is regardless of gain setting.  (Cranking the gain right up does not affect noise floor) ...strange

-limiter sounds a bit more transparant than the one in my mixpre to my ears, I'll be using the sony limiter instead of the mixpre limiter.

-it can take all the level a mixpre can throw at it using the 1/8" tape out. I've found the ideal gain setting to be around the 4 mark on the sony.

-sounds slightly sweeter to my ears than the microtrack1 when testing with complex high frequency sounds, (metal percussion and shaker test).  Good sound quality, though it's obviously no Apogee...

-internal mics are actually decent, though as you would expect the stereo separation is not that great.  Would be good for collecting foley type sounds and 'close' sounds.  Could be good for taping if you widened the image in post a bit with a mide/side processor.

-overall very user friendly and intuitive operation, also, this thing reeks of class even though it is mostly plastic.  (only the front facia is metal)

In my opinion the only major caveat is the noise floor, if you've got a recording with peaks of -12db and then normalize it in post, all the sudden your noise is in the -60db's, which to me is audible.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 17, 2009, 01:07:41 PM
Here are some selections from recordings made of local bands last night.

Used internal mics only, 24/96, no limiter.

I did the edits as well as some panning and gain adjustments in Audacity. I could not figure out how to export the files as 24 bit, so these are 16 bit files.

1. "earle" - Sitting far back from the band. M10 on the table.

http://www.box.net/shared/pov51ac7gz

2. "anderson" - organ & drums duo. Stood quite close but to one side, holding M10.

http://www.box.net/shared/qbekg2kkti

3. "sutherland" - R&B horn band. Stood about 20 feet back and to the side, again holding the M10.

http://www.box.net/shared/t0uk0oj8vm

(I think when I raised the gain in Audacity on this last one, #3, that I may have introduced some distortion.)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Craig T on October 17, 2009, 03:10:05 PM
-noise floor sits around -76db using the line in, this is regardless of gain setting.  (Cranking the gain right up does not affect noise floor) ...strange

Disappointing.  I'd like to see a confirmation of this noise spec.  The R09HR and DR07 are both significantly better when running line-in.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: xpander on October 18, 2009, 07:31:08 AM
Internal mics are amazing.  *Extremely* low noise.  It is quieter than 20dBA, probably much quieter than this.  I can't believe how good this is for ambient recording.

Richard, care to compare to D50 in this regard, since you have that one also?

I have used D50 internals for almost a year now. While they are really sensitive and sound ok, I find the noise floor just a tad too high for real ambient (field) recording...unless its somewhat louder sources like birds nearby, cars, thunder etc. I run gain around 4.5, above that and the hiss is getting too noticeable for more silent sources.

No problems at all with the line in, it's the noise of the internal mics I'm interested in, compared to M10.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on October 18, 2009, 11:34:41 AM
if the PCM-M10 has preamp noise that can be detected under some circumstances, it will still be useful for recording for most Tapers Section folks.

A while back, Digifish posted a comparison of the Edirol R09HR recording using its internal preamp, and using the same mics with a high quality external preamp.  The results demonstrate the difference in self-noise between "quiet" and "very quiet" preamp. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=105893.msg1443847#msg1443847

But as we have learned, the R09HR does work very well for recording live music in the typical club venue. 

Richard ("illconditioned"), at one time you had an R09HR.  How do your think the PCM-M10 compares to the Edirol in self-noise, and in other ways?

Flintstone

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on October 18, 2009, 12:53:07 PM
if the PCM-M10 has preamp noise that can be detected under some circumstances, it will still be useful for recording for most Tapers Section folks.

A while back, Digifish posted a comparison of the Edirol R09HR recording using its internal preamp, and using the same mics with a high quality external preamp.  The results demonstrate the difference in self-noise between "quiet" and "very quiet" preamp. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=105893.msg1443847#msg1443847 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=105893.msg1443847#msg1443847)

But as we have learned, the R09HR does work very well for recording live music in the typical club venue. 

Richard ("illconditioned"), at one time you had an R09HR.  How do your think the PCM-M10 compares to the Edirol in self-noise, and in other ways?

Flintstone
I never had an HR.  Right now I've got an R09, D50 and M10.  I'll measure the M10 noise and get back to you.  My initial impressions (internal mics) is that this thing is *incredibly* quiet.  Something like 18 or 20dBA.  I highly suspect the OP measurements are in error, but I need to test to be sure.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: patchen on October 18, 2009, 03:19:54 PM

-noise floor sits around -76db using the line in, this is regardless of gain setting.  (Cranking the gain right up does not affect noise floor) ...strange


BTW, this is with the line in.  I have not tested the noise level of the internal mics or mic pre.  I would love confirmation of this spec tho' cause if I have a faulty unit I'd like to know...
It just seems strange for there to be broad band white noise that just sits there at -76db regardless of gain setting...

EDIT; -76db is the peak readings, it's about -85db rms according to wavelabs meters
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 18, 2009, 07:07:58 PM
Here is an excerpt from a recording I made this morning of a local high school string quartet (2 violins, viola, and string bass rather than cello), playing in a very noisy restaurant.

I used an AT822 plugged into the mic input of the M10, about 8 ft from the group, close to center.

It was recorded at 24/96, but the file has been converted to 16/44.1.

It's not a great recording, but it may give an idea of what the M10 sounds like with an external mic .

http://www.box.net/shared/pda9pah103
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bucsab12 on October 18, 2009, 10:17:46 PM
Can the owners of the PCM-M10 please tell us how is the recorder, battery wise? Did Sony really achieve what they were claiming (28 hours on two AA batteries, if I remember correctly)? Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on October 18, 2009, 10:36:47 PM
Can the owners of the PCM-M10 please tell us how is the recorder, battery wise? Did Sony really achieve what they were claiming (28 hours on two AA batteries, if I remember correctly)? Thank you in advance.
I haven't used it a lot, but the battery is still lasting.  A couple of hours recording, connecting to USB, playing in the menus, and it is still registering "full".

It has a great "standby mode", so you never have to really turn it off.

Get this recorder if you're sitting on the fence.  You can't go wrong.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Jamos on October 18, 2009, 10:54:01 PM
My first impressions are that the noise level is quite low using the buit-in mics. 

I have not tested the line level input yet.

When I picked it up, my vendor was saying that he was a little disappointed that "it felt so plastic".  He was comparing it to what the D-50 felt like.  Now I'll agree that the D-50 felt a little more solid (also twice the size), but if you've owned any of the other small recorders (R-09, Zoom, Tascam, etc.) I think you'd agree that the M10 feels a little more refined. 

I think this is the closest thing to a D-8 or M-1 that we've seen yet.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bucsab12 on October 18, 2009, 11:12:32 PM
It doesn't surprise me that his recorder is a solid one, based on previous Sony recorders which have been great but it has just made my choice a lot tougher... After reading about 100 pages about the Edirol R-09HR, I was getting ready to order one but then I saw Sony is coming out with this recorder so I decided I will wait and see what people think about it.

I don't think I will use the internal mics though as I have bought a pair of CA-14's and a ST-9100 preamp so I will probably use the Line In socket in most situations. May also use the Mic In if the internal preamp is really as good as the one on the PCM-D50. So now my choice comes down to these two recorders.

Which recorder do you think will give me better results when using external mics? Maybe I will just have to wait till the PCM-M10 will be studied a little more in order to take a calculated decision...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 18, 2009, 11:18:52 PM
Which recorder do you think will give me better results when using external mics? Maybe I will just have to wait till the PCM-M10 will be studied a little more in order to take a calculated decision...

The R-09HR has a good track record used by countless tapers, so I think if you go with it now it would be a safe choice that you wouldn't regret.  It's definitely a quality and very solid recorder.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: patchen on October 18, 2009, 11:33:48 PM
Can the owners of the PCM-M10 please tell us how is the recorder, battery wise? Did Sony really achieve what they were claiming (28 hours on two AA batteries, if I remember correctly)? Thank you in advance.
I haven't used it a lot, but the battery is still lasting.  A couple of hours recording, connecting to USB, playing in the menus, and it is still registering "full".

It has a great "standby mode", so you never have to really turn it off.

Get this recorder if you're sitting on the fence.  You can't go wrong.

  Richard

I haven't logged a lot of record time either.  I've recorded probably 2hrs total, and have played back about as many files and mp3s as well.  So perhaps 5hrs use? My battery meter still says 100%  My guess is that this machine likely shares some of the power saving technology of Sony's Minidisc series.  The portable minidisc players from Sony always had uncanny ability to last forever on a single AA battery.  This is a great 'point and shoot' machine that slips easily into the pocket (about the size of an iphone but slightly thicker) and is very user friendly.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 19, 2009, 08:45:26 AM
Can the owners of the PCM-M10 please tell us how is the recorder, battery wise? Did Sony really achieve what they were claiming (28 hours on two AA batteries, if I remember correctly)? Thank you in advance.

I think I've used it close to ten hours and the battery indicator shows full. These are the original in-the-box batteries.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 19, 2009, 09:09:56 AM
My first impressions are that the noise level is quite low using the buit-in mics. 

I have not tested the line level input yet.

When I picked it up, my vendor was saying that he was a little disappointed that "it felt so plastic".  He was comparing it to what the D-50 felt like.  Now I'll agree that the D-50 felt a little more solid (also twice the size), but if you've owned any of the other small recorders (R-09, Zoom, Tascam, etc.) I think you'd agree that the M10 feels a little more refined. 

I think this is the closest thing to a D-8 or M-1 that we've seen yet.

I agree. The way this unit looks, feels and operates puts it in a different class from the other small recorders. The R-09 seems like a toy in comparison, and ugly to boot.

I wish the internal mics were cardioids instead of omnis, but it may make the unit more versatile as is, and the recordings have been quite clean.

I used a TCD-D3 for many years (until the battery packs died and Sony stopped support) and I also agree this will be a good replacement -- especially with the Micro SD card option.

BTW, I am using a Lexar 8GB Micro SDHC card with the M10 without a problem.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 19, 2009, 09:21:11 AM
This is a great 'point and shoot' machine that slips easily into the pocket (about the size of an iphone but slightly thicker) and is very user friendly.

As I said elsewhere, most people when they've seen the M10 sitting on a table or in my hand think it's a cell phone. Especially because of the large display and the build quality.

Maybe someone will make a skin for it that has a fake QWERTY keyboard to cover the controls....
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: stober on October 19, 2009, 11:22:18 AM
still no digital in huh? It will never be as good as a D-8 or M-1 just having a little mini line in like that.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: patchen on October 19, 2009, 11:37:31 AM
Could any of the other owners perhaps confirm the noise spec for me?  I've now tested it at all sample and bit rates, as well as with the mic and line inputs.  My machine _always_ has some residual noise down at -76db even with the gain set to '0', which by the way effectively turns the input off.  To test you can just plug in a dummy cable to the line input, or plug the other end into something that is creating no noise, set the gain to '0' and record a few seconds, checking the noise floor in an audio editing program. I want to make sure this is an across the board thing before I contact technical support, cause it seems like something might be off with my machine.  I'd be very appreciative if someone would check this for me. :)

For me this kind of makes the unit unusable for making line in recordings because as I said, the minute you boost the recording with normalization or limiting you've got what is to me, very audible white noise hanging out in the background.  I love this unit on the whole, but this could be a deal breaker for me...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 19, 2009, 12:13:35 PM
still no digital in huh? It will never be as good as a D-8 or M-1 just having a little mini line in like that.

The D50 has digital in. Perhaps that's a more exact comparison.

My TCD-D3, which made some great recordings, required an external box for digital I/O, that I bought and hardly used.


Now that you can transfer your recorded files digitally to a computer via USB and memory card, digital I/O seems redundant, unless you're using a preamp with digital out.

For most situations, I like to take advantage of the handy small size of a unit like the M10, and keep the set-up to a minimum, i.e., no external preamp.



Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 19, 2009, 12:42:50 PM
Could any of the other owners perhaps confirm the noise spec for me?  I've now tested it at all sample and bit rates, as well as with the mic and line inputs.  My machine _always_ has some residual noise down at -76db even with the gain set to '0', which by the way effectively turns the input off.  To test you can just plug in a dummy cable to the line input, or plug the other end into something that is creating no noise, set the gain to '0' and record a few seconds, checking the noise floor in an audio editing program. I want to make sure this is an across the board thing before I contact technical support, cause it seems like something might be off with my machine.  I'd be very appreciative if someone would check this for me. :)

For me this kind of makes the unit unusable for making line in recordings because as I said, the minute you boost the recording with normalization or limiting you've got what is to me, very audible white noise hanging out in the background.  I love this unit on the whole, but this could be a deal breaker for me...

I plugged into the M10 line in from a cable connected to my stereo which was not turned on.

I set the rec level to "0" and recorded 30 secs.

The downloaded file was opened in Audacity (the only audio software I have working now since upgrading to Snow Leopard) and I don't see any noise.

Here is 15 secs of the file if you'd like to check it yourself. I recorded at 24/96, but I converted it to 16/44.1 in Audacity.

http://www.box.net/shared/chro9lyezv
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: patchen on October 19, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
Thanks Dogmusic,
It is now confirmed.  Your machine exhibits the same noise floor as mine.  White noise hanging out around -76db.  Not a problem for tapers recording PA's I imagine but for anybody gathering quiet sounds it will be an issue unless they record with no headroom, any normalization will pull the noise floor right up.... My original microtrack is much quieter and I guess I will have to keep using it for when I want absolute fidelity.  Too bad...  Thanks again for running the test Dogmusic!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 19, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
It would be interesting to see how the M10 and R-09HR compare in terms of noise floor. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 19, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
Thanks Dogmusic,
It is now confirmed.  Your machine exhibits the same noise floor as mine.  White noise hanging out around -76db.  Not a problem for tapers recording PA's I imagine but for anybody gathering quiet sounds it will be an issue unless they record with no headroom, any normalization will pull the noise floor right up.... My original microtrack is much quieter and I guess I will have to keep using it for when I want absolute fidelity.  Too bad...  Thanks again for running the test Dogmusic!

Would you clue me in as to how you measured the noise floor? I magnified the wave form down as close as possible and I couldn't see anything.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on October 19, 2009, 04:57:25 PM
I just got my unit and its official, this is a winner, perfect size and feels like its built like a brick, easy controls and with sonys reputation of producing small quality recording devices i am sure this will be no different if not better, looks like the Marantz PMD620 will be headed for backup unit duties now or sold and it is the only piece of gear i have continuosly owned for almost 2 years and if you  know me then you know thats no small feat(holding onto to gear for any length of time that is)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: chrise on October 19, 2009, 05:26:15 PM
I magnified the wave form down as close as possible and I couldn't see anything.

That sounds odd.  Surely you'd expect to see some noise.  If there's really nothing there, it sounds like you've somehow got an empty file of zeros.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on October 19, 2009, 05:27:01 PM
It would be interesting to see how the M10 and R-09HR compare in terms of noise floor.
OK, I just measured the noise floor, both the Edirol R09 and the Sony M10.  I put a 1.2k resistor to short the mic inputs, turned off plug in power, set mic gain to minimum (and low sens).  I got a reading of approx -76dB (peak).  It seems like the bottom three or four bits are noise.

This confirms my earlier suspicions that there is really no point in recording 24bit on these.  If you record 24bits, you're just getting an extra 8 bits of noise!

I've tried this on my other recorders too.  Has anyone actually got a lower noise floor?  How about so-called professional gear, like Apogee MiniME or Grace V3?

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: patchen on October 19, 2009, 05:56:27 PM
Thanks Dogmusic,
It is now confirmed.  Your machine exhibits the same noise floor as mine.  White noise hanging out around -76db.  Not a problem for tapers recording PA's I imagine but for anybody gathering quiet sounds it will be an issue unless they record with no headroom, any normalization will pull the noise floor right up.... My original microtrack is much quieter and I guess I will have to keep using it for when I want absolute fidelity.  Too bad...  Thanks again for running the test Dogmusic!

Would you clue me in as to how you measured the noise floor? I magnified the wave form down as close as possible and I couldn't see anything.

With wavelab you can zoom in and see it, also the peak meters show it as well. If I boost the gain 12db I can hear it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: patchen on October 19, 2009, 06:15:23 PM
It would be interesting to see how the M10 and R-09HR compare in terms of noise floor.
OK, I just measured the noise floor, both the Edirol R09 and the Sony M10.  I put a 1.2k resistor to short the mic inputs, turned off plug in power, set mic gain to minimum (and low sens).  I got a reading of approx -76dB (peak).  It seems like the bottom three or four bits are noise.

This confirms my earlier suspicions that there is really no point in recording 24bit on these.  If you record 24bits, you're just getting an extra 8 bits of noise!

I've tried this on my other recorders too.  Has anyone actually got a lower noise floor?  How about so-called professional gear, like Apogee MiniME or Grace V3?

  Richard

Quite telling, it must be true that it is  resolving less than 24bits as this would explain the persistence of the noise floor even with the gain turned all the way down.  My original Microtrack1 fairs much better in this regard with a reading of about -86db peak.  10dbs is Pretty huge and I'm surprised at the difference here.  Looks like I'll still have to rely on that that buggy, annoying POS for critical recordings.  Damn...  Do you know if this is the same with the D-50 or any of the other mid price units?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on October 19, 2009, 07:41:51 PM
Some preamps exhibit the least noise with the volume turned up.
Can you try the same experiment with the resistor shorting the cable,
and the volume turned all the way up?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: NineEyes on October 19, 2009, 09:51:38 PM
I'm surprised guysonic hasn't asked somebody to send him an M10 to bench test.  I'd pay $20 to see him compare the noise specs of the M10 to the D50.  Guy???  Are you out there?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 20, 2009, 09:27:21 AM
This table shows relative noise specs for the mic inputs of a number of recorders.

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

I believe it has been mentioned elsewhere in this Forum but I forget where.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bucsab12 on October 20, 2009, 10:43:06 AM
I am sorry about the noob question but I am not sure that I undersood the table in the link that Dogmusic specified.

Please correct me if I am wrong but from what I understood, the Olumpus LS-10 and LS-11 have the quietest mic inputs with the lowest floor noise (even better then the PCM-D50)?

Which of these recorders in the table has the best Line input? Is it specified in the table?

I will really appreciate it if someone could explain briefly what each column in the table means because I am lost...

Thank you very much in advance
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on October 20, 2009, 01:42:51 PM
The Avisoft table talks about mic input only. The recorder that posted the best (that is, the least audible) results for mic preamp noise when volume is at maximum is the Sound Devices 722.  The Sony PCM-D50 has better results than the Olympus LS-10 or Edirol R-09HR.

These tests are mostly relevant to people who are recording very quiet subjects. (That's why the test volume is set to maximum).  In the environment where concert tapers record, the background noise level is high enough to mask the differences between most recorders.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bucsab12 on October 20, 2009, 01:52:35 PM
Thank you flintstone for correcting me. I was looking at the "Dynamic Range at max gain" column instead of at the "Equivalent Input Noise (EIN) impedance: 150 ohms" column. Can you please tell me what does the "Dynamic Range at max gain" mean?

Thanks again
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Jamos on October 20, 2009, 03:16:17 PM

The Sony PCM-D50 has better results than the Olympus LS-10 or Edirol R-09HR.


I was sort of counting on the new M10 to follow in the footsteps of the D50 in this regard.
Hopefully someone can do some definitive testing on it soon so we will all know.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bucsab12 on October 20, 2009, 03:26:07 PM
I understand now that the chart only states the noise floor of each recorder when using the microphone input. So it really compares between the internal preamp of each recorder. Is that correct?

What about the line input? Is there any difference in noise between different recorders when using that socket or is it always the same because the signal it is not going through a preamp?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dbxp on October 22, 2009, 12:45:21 AM
If indeed the preamp is bypassed, the line-in contributes very little to the noise floor. Typical post line-in amps do have much higher EIN than the preamps. However, due to limited gain from this point on, it will not show up much in the final output at all.

Searching for "cascaded noise figures" should come up with many nice tutorials on this.

I'm wondering about any comparisons out there of PCM-M10 versus Olympus LS-11?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on October 24, 2009, 02:00:25 PM
My pcm-m10 has a small glich.
When I first got it displayed the elapsed recording time or how much was left while it was recording  (I forget which).
Now it  displays the date. the time remaining is displayed small under the battery indicator.

It still records fine. I was wondering if this happen to anyone else?
I am wondering if it is a software problem that could be fixed with a down load. I will check with support before I return it.

Like I said it works but it is reassuring to glance and see the numbers changing when recording.
Mark


 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 24, 2009, 03:04:10 PM
My pcm-m10 has a small glich.
When I first got it displayed the elapsed recording time or how much was left while it was recording  (I forget which).
Now it  displays the date. the time remaining is displayed small under the battery indicator.

It still records fine. I was wondering if this happen to anyone else?
I am wondering if it is a software problem that could be fixed with a down load. I will check with support before I return it.

Like I said it works but it is reassuring to glance and see the numbers changing when recording.
Mark

Did you try pressing the "DISPLAY" button? (It's on the right, directly below the display itself.)

Repeated pressings will cycle through a number of different time indication choices. (page 113 of the manual)

You may have pressed it inadvertently.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on October 24, 2009, 03:17:54 PM
Just used mine last night for a show and really like the way it operates, it was a open show but i can see it will now be great for "not so open" gigs as well
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on October 24, 2009, 03:56:48 PM
My pcm-m10 has a small glich.
When I first got it displayed the elapsed recording time or how much was left while it was recording  (I forget which).
Now it  displays the date. the time remaining is displayed small under the battery indicator.

It still records fine. I was wondering if this happen to anyone else?
I am wondering if it is a software problem that could be fixed with a down load. I will check with support before I return it.

Like I said it works but it is reassuring to glance and see the numbers changing when recording.
Mark

Did you try pressing the "DISPLAY" button? (It's on the right, directly below the display itself.)

Repeated pressings will cycle through a number of different time indication choices. (page 113 of the manual)

You may have pressed it inadvertently.

 Thanks Dogmusic
I cant believe I missed that...Duh
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on October 25, 2009, 12:55:52 AM
Okay, just ordered mine from Sweetwater.  Should be in my hands by Weds.  I'm excited about his recorder and hopeful it will be comparable to my D50 in a compact size.  I love being able to use the "mic in" to power my mics, and avoid using a pre-amp, and get excellent results.  Anybody aware of any micro card issues?  Which are preferred, any deals on 16GB sizes?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on October 25, 2009, 08:49:02 AM
Analysis of the sample posted -

                        Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -3   -3
Max Sample Value:   6   6
Peak Amplitude:   -76.32 dB   -76.32 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   .003    .003
Minimum RMS Power:   -91.02 dB   -90.88 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -90.01 dB   -89.9 dB
Average RMS Power:   -90.5 dB   -90.42 dB
Total RMS Power:   -90.49 dB   -90.41 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

Seems respectable to me off the top of my head - in line with expectations, though the testing method may be incorrect.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Jamos on October 25, 2009, 06:53:39 PM
Anyone have an M10 they can do without for a couple weeks to send to GuySonic for testing?

He's done great tests on decks in the past, measuring mic & line input noise levels, mic plug-in-power voltages, and other useful things.

I've been in touch with him and he would love to run some tests on this new deck, but I'll be needing mine for the next couple weeks.  If I didn't, I would send it to him.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on October 25, 2009, 06:57:40 PM
Anyone have an M10 they can do without for a couple weeks to send to GuySonic for testing?

He's done great tests on decks in the past, measuring mic & line input noise levels, mic plug-in-power voltages, and other useful things.

I've been in touch with him and he would love to run some tests on this new deck, but I'll be needing mine for the next couple weeks.  If I didn't, I would send it to him.
I'd like to hear tests too, but I'm in love with mine.  Cannot give it up.  I'm still using the same set of batteries.  The powersave on this thing is incredible!

Maybe someone would send a D50 to him.  You know, after they upgrade to the M10 :).

 Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: kfrinkle on October 25, 2009, 07:10:48 PM
Average price on this little nugget of yumminess?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: drewloo on October 25, 2009, 07:20:43 PM
3 bills.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on October 25, 2009, 08:03:56 PM
Anyone have an M10 they can do without for a couple weeks to send to GuySonic for testing?

He's done great tests on decks in the past, measuring mic & line input noise levels, mic plug-in-power voltages, and other useful things.

I've been in touch with him and he would love to run some tests on this new deck, but I'll be needing mine for the next couple weeks.  If I didn't, I would send it to him.
I'd like to hear tests too, but I'm in love with mine.  Cannot give it up.  I'm still using the same set of batteries.  The powersave on this thing is incredible!

Maybe someone would send a D50 to him.  You know, after they upgrade to the M10 :).

 Richard

You really consider it an "upgrade" over the D50 Richard?  That's awesome!  Mine should be here Weds.  I think I'll break it in on Monte Montgomery and then a mellow Rik Emmett acoustic show coming up next month.

David
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Belexes on October 25, 2009, 08:31:12 PM
I still think this is a budget D50 missing some bells and whistles. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on October 25, 2009, 09:46:53 PM
Anyone have an M10 they can do without for a couple weeks to send to GuySonic for testing?

He's done great tests on decks in the past, measuring mic & line input noise levels, mic plug-in-power voltages, and other useful things.

I've been in touch with him and he would love to run some tests on this new deck, but I'll be needing mine for the next couple weeks.  If I didn't, I would send it to him.

It's alright. We can wait two weeks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on October 25, 2009, 11:00:31 PM
I still think this is a budget D50 missing some bells and whistles.
Yes, that is what I'm saying.  It seems pretty much the same, less the Cardioid mics and the Digital in.  But I never used these.  So, it is the best recorder for me...

 Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on October 25, 2009, 11:17:08 PM
Yes, that is what I'm saying.  It seems pretty much the same, less the Cardioid mics and the Digital in.  But I never used these.  So, it is the best recorder for me...

 Richard

Didn't realize the D50 had directional mics.  Would have been cool if the M10 did too, although I don't think I will ever use internal mics for taping anything.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on October 25, 2009, 11:57:17 PM
One thing I noticed while perusing the manual is that the M10 does cross-memory recording.  You fill up the internal 4GB and is automatically starts recording on the memory stick.  This it totally cool!!  The D50 did not have that feature!! I think the M10's mics are adjustable are they not?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on October 26, 2009, 12:24:23 AM
One thing I noticed while perusing the manual is that the M10 does cross-memory recording.  You fill up the internal 4GB and is automatically starts recording on the memory stick.  This it totally cool!!  The D50 did not have that feature!! I think the M10's mics are adjustable are they not?
M10 mics are fixed omnis, pointing out the front, one on each corner of the case.  I actually like the built in mics.  They have reasonable detail and are very quiet (< 20dBA I would guess).  This is better than most cheap mics out there.

I will probably end up using the internals for ambient recording around the house, but plug in Countryman B3 or similar for music recording.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Belexes on October 26, 2009, 08:34:17 AM
I still think this is a budget D50 missing some bells and whistles.
Yes, that is what I'm saying.  It seems pretty much the same, less the Cardioid mics and the Digital in.  But I never used these.  So, it is the best recorder for me...

 Richard

That makes sense.  I have used the internals and digi-in every once in a while.  Sony wanted to get into the $300 market and here it is, but I'm holding onto my D50 for now especially since I also have the HR in the gear bag.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tardis71 on October 28, 2009, 08:44:14 PM
Thanks for all the info on this recorder! Any chance someone could upload photos comparing the size of the M10 to say a D8 or rh1 minidisc ? Or just holding it in your hand....or in a shirt/coat breast pocket?
Just would like to see the size of the thing!
I know it's 4.5 x 2.5 so that should be the size of an iphone?
No worries if not! Just thought I'd like to see some.
Thanks in advance if you do post one! ;)
ps. Any thoughts on how it would sound recording a club show, if you did just pop it into your shirt front pocket with the mics sticking out?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on October 28, 2009, 08:52:08 PM
If you look back to October 8 there are pics posted.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tardis71 on October 28, 2009, 08:55:47 PM
If you look back to October 8 there are pics posted.

Cool thanks! wow! it's tiny. Still would like to see it beside a D8..but no big deal!
Carry on sir's! ;)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on October 28, 2009, 09:09:50 PM
Yes it is small. I recorded a concert last week with mine. I put a sock in my pocket to get the mics up out of pocket. turned out fairly well. I just ordered some Church audio cA-14s to use with it. Hoping I wont need a battery box.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on October 28, 2009, 09:36:32 PM
Got mine today, LOVIN' it!!!!  Rock solid little machine.  I can see why people(man) might think it's a cell phone...  Can't wait to try it out.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on October 30, 2009, 06:40:12 AM
I just ordered some Church audio cA-14s to use with it. Hoping I wont need a battery box.

It may work fine most of the time w/o a box, but you're likely to run into at least occasional trouble doing so. Chris recommends at least 5 volts plug in power for the CA-14's and I'd be shocked if the M10 provides anywhere near that. I would test it on something very loud that you don't care about before recording anything critical without a box.

Adding one of the tiny Church Audio boxes to the chain really doesn't add that much bulk to the system and would eliminate the risk of occasional distortion.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: georgeh on October 31, 2009, 04:14:00 PM
so has anyone picked one of these up, or ordered one? I'd be interested in hearing some recordings or comments. Personally I'd probably avoid this due to the internal mics, but if it sounds decent for acoustic music, then may be worth picking up.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on November 01, 2009, 02:22:50 AM
so has anyone picked one of these up, or ordered one?

Um, yeah a bunch of people have.  Just look back a few posts.  ;)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: xpander on November 01, 2009, 05:19:39 AM
M10 mics are fixed omnis, pointing out the front, one on each corner of the case.  I actually like the built in mics.  They have reasonable detail and are very quiet (< 20dBA I would guess).  This is better than most cheap mics out there.

I will probably end up using the internals for ambient recording around the house, but plug in Countryman B3 or similar for music recording.

Richard

Richard, have you done any comparison between the mics of M10 and D50 yet? Both set the same way and recording the same source at same levels (meter reading), I wonder which one actually has less noise and/or is more sensitive?

Any low level source would reveal fast if theres noticeable difference in that regard...if you'd have time or interest for this kind of test, I'd appreciate it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: georgeh on November 02, 2009, 11:38:55 AM
so has anyone picked one of these up, or ordered one?

Um, yeah a bunch of people have.  Just look back a few posts.  ;)

whoops, bit of a stoner move on my part. guess i got caught up reading early reviews instead of seeing if there was a page two.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dbxp on November 02, 2009, 11:58:16 AM
Here is a test recording of mine with internal mics:

http://www.box.net/shared/ovixz0us3t

It was recorded with 24/96 but normalized to 0 dB and converted to 16/44.1. The recording had about 9 dB of headroom so factor in about 9 dB of noise floor increase during normalization. Still the very slight ambient noise dominated electronic hissing. The mic sensitivity was set to low and the unit was placed on the right hand flat area of the music desk of a Steinway grand piano, pointing into the soundboard at a 45 degree angle.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on November 02, 2009, 01:14:30 PM
Sold my backup R09hr and just ordered a PCM-M10.... if it gets here by Friday, I hope to run a comparison between my other R09HR and the M10
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bgalizio on November 02, 2009, 01:30:44 PM
Sold my backup R09hr and just ordered a PCM-M10.... if it gets here by Friday, I hope to run a comparison between my other R09HR and the M10

I would love to hear a line-in comparison of the two recorders. Just hook them up to your CD player at home and record! (Bonus if you have a commercial SACD or DVD-A for 24bit recording comparison).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on November 02, 2009, 05:22:17 PM
Here is a test recording of mine with internal mics:

http://www.box.net/shared/ovixz0us3t

It was recorded with 24/96 but normalized to 0 dB and converted to 16/44.1. The recording had about 9 dB of headroom so factor in about 9 dB of noise floor increase during normalization. Still the very slight ambient noise dominated electronic hissing. The mic sensitivity was set to low and the unit was placed on the right hand flat area of the music desk of a Steinway grand piano, pointing into the soundboard at a 45 degree angle.

Always a pleasure to hear Bach, especially so evenly played. Thank you, dbxp. Is that a Steinway "M"?

The PCM-M10 again seems to me to come off quite well using the internals.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dbxp on November 02, 2009, 08:59:29 PM
Thanks Dogmusic for the kind words. While I'm no Steinway expert, it's probably a model A, as it's a solid 6 footer. I myself have very limited musical capabilities and it's my high school son who takes piano lessons playing in a classroom of the conservatory here. The rooms there all have basic acoustic treatment. Bigger rooms have hardwood floors and sound-absorbing ceilings while smaller rooms have additional two sound absorbing walls. That, plus frequent tuning and regulation of the pianos, usually makes the instrument much better sounding than what we can achieve at home.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on November 02, 2009, 09:30:33 PM
I would love to hear a line-in comparison of the two recorders. Just hook them up to your CD player at home and record! (Bonus if you have a commercial SACD or DVD-A for 24bit recording comparison).

The only other high-end equipment I own is a 722... but I always like "live field" comparisons, as that is how I use my gear 100% of the time
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bgalizio on November 03, 2009, 05:28:10 AM
I would love to hear a line-in comparison of the two recorders. Just hook them up to your CD player at home and record! (Bonus if you have a commercial SACD or DVD-A for 24bit recording comparison).

The only other high-end equipment I own is a 722... but I always like "live field" comparisons, as that is how I use my gear 100% of the time

I understand. But this test will help us R-09HR owners on whether the M10 is an upgrade, crossgrade, or downgrade.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Craig T on November 03, 2009, 08:22:34 AM
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=529501
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=529502
http://www.archive.org/details/dso2009-11-07.mk4-8.nbox.flac16

Schoeps mk4+mk8 (m/s)> NBox+> Sony PCM-M10

http://www.archive.org/details/kdtu2009-11-01.ca14c.st9100.flac16

Church Audio CA-14(cards,NOS)> ST-9100v4.3> Sony PCM-M10
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on November 03, 2009, 06:20:58 PM
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=529501
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=529502

Schoeps mk4+mk8 (m/s)> NBox+> Sony PCM-M10

http://www.archive.org/details/kdtu2009-11-01.ca14c.st9100.flac16

Church Audio CA-14(cards,NOS)> ST-9100v4.3> Sony PCM-M10

Sounds pretty damn nice...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on November 05, 2009, 09:19:23 PM
A few weeks back, I borrowed a Zoom H4 to record the sound of rain. I ended up doing a lot more environmental ambient recordings. After I gave the zoom back, I ordered the Sony M10.

I just got the M10 today. I'm shocked at how little handling noise there is compared to the Zoom, and I'm not even using the included remote yet. Sound quality does seem to be noticeably better than the Zoom. In particular, the noise floor seems a lot lower, even after normalizing a very quiet recording.

The size and form-factor are roughly similar to an older smart phone or mp3 player. No one will mistake it for a cell phone, but it could easily be mistaken for a weird MP3 player.

The only negative is that it doesn't seem to recognize eject events from my Mac. But it didn't complain when I pulled the USB cable, either.

Does anyone sell a windscreen for the M10 yet? The Sony screen doesn't seem to be available anywhere.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 05, 2009, 10:56:33 PM
There are windscreens for sale on ebay for the PCM-M10 one for 19.99 and another for 23.99 . there is also an offical Sony windscreen for 62.99.

 I decided to make my own but had a hard time finding faux fur that was long enough. Then I found distinctivefabrics.com they have a 3 inch pyle and if you join their web site they will send you 3 free swatches (no charge for postage even) samples 5 X 3 1/2 " plenty big enough to make a windscreen just get a short piece of elastic and you can make a cheap or free windscreen.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on November 06, 2009, 07:21:14 AM
No one will mistake it for a cell phone, but it could easily be mistaken for a weird MP3 player.

Actually, I already had a couple people think that it was a cell phone who were surprised to find out what it was.

The only negative is that it doesn't seem to recognize eject events from my Mac. But it didn't complain when I pulled the USB cable, either.

I haven't had any problems with the M10 and my Mac. Did you try ejecting it from a finder window? If you have a memory card inside it, then two icons will appear on the desktop and both should be ejected.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on November 06, 2009, 09:08:42 AM
I haven't had any problems with the M10 and my Mac. Did you try ejecting it from a finder window? If you have a memory card inside it, then two icons will appear on the desktop and both should be ejected.

I ejected it from my mac. Ten minutes later, the connecting logo was still spinning on the Sony. I'm not using a memory card yet.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on November 06, 2009, 09:23:29 AM
I haven't had any problems with the M10 and my Mac. Did you try ejecting it from a finder window? If you have a memory card inside it, then two icons will appear on the desktop and both should be ejected.

I ejected it from my mac. Ten minutes later, the connecting logo was still spinning on the Sony. I'm not using a memory card yet.

Mine does the same. That spinning is a little disconcerting and it would've been better to have a definite "disconnected" indication.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on November 06, 2009, 10:09:21 AM
anyone know how many volts in the plug-in power?

also - this has a digital limiter, the r09hr says it has an analog limiter.  not sure what the difference is, and if you'd even use one in a stealth situation.  I never used AGC, but I did use the clip setting on my rockboxed IRiver, which actually works.

I was all ready to pull the trigger on an r09hr, until this came out, now I'm on the fence.  My sense is either one would be great, but I'd use this primarily for stealth - so ease of use, low key lighting, easily visible controls, etc.  you've got to love the IRiver remote, which shows you the levels right on it.

The M-10 looks like it has forward facing mics with clip indicators right on them, so if you're clipping, you'd be blinking.  I'd generally use separate mics (AT853) but I'm surprised at the results people have been getting from the built ins...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on November 06, 2009, 10:35:35 AM
anyone know how many volts in the plug-in power?

The brick says 3V, 1A. I haven't taken a scope or multimeter to it to verify, though.


also - this has a digital limiter, the r09hr says it has an analog limiter.  not sure what the difference is, and if you'd even use one in a stealth situation.  I never used AGC, but I did use the clip setting on my rockboxed IRiver, which actually works.

The O'Reilly (http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/10/sony-pcm-d50-recorder-review.html?page=2) D50 review explains how the sony digital limiter works. In a nutshell, Sony records at both the normal level and several dB lower. When it detects clipping, it smoothly and seamlessly splices in the quieter wave. I have not verified this on my M10, though.

AGC is turned on out of the box, so my previous comments where I compared the noise level of the M10 to the Zoom H4 reflected on recordings with AGC turned on. I've since tried manual recordings and definitely hear some noise both from handling and on the foloor when the record level is turned way up. The out-of-the-box sound is amazing. I expect it will take a day or two for me to figure out how to best make a manual recording.

The M-10 looks like it has forward facing mics with clip indicators right on them, so if you're clipping, you'd be blinking.  I'd generally use separate mics (AT853) but I'm surprised at the results people have been getting from the built ins...

It actually has two sets of lights on each mic. One for -12 dB and another for clipping. I believe you can turn the lights completely off in the menu to avoid distracting musicians.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on November 06, 2009, 10:38:02 AM
One more thing:

The M10 names your recording with the current date and a recording number. If you delete recordings, the M10 keeps incrementing the recording number. If you format the unit, as you would after moving data to your PC, the number is reset back to zero.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on November 06, 2009, 11:39:01 AM

also - this has a digital limiter, the r09hr says it has an analog limiter.  not sure what the difference is..

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/10/sony-pcm-d50-recorder-review.html?page=2
The O'Reilly (http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/10/sony-pcm-d50-recorder-review.html?page=2) D50 review explains how the sony digital limiter works. In a nutshell, Sony records at both the normal level and several dB lower. When it detects clipping, it smoothly and seamlessly splices in the quieter wave. I have not verified this on my M10, though.




that is SO cool....
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on November 06, 2009, 12:23:47 PM
not sure if the limiter circuit is the same as the D50.

from the m-10 instruction manual

http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/11777-PCMM10%20Operation.pdf

=============================
z On the limiter circuit
• The limiter circuit functions to keep the signal level below the
maximum input level. When a loud sound is input suddenly, the
excess part of the sound is automatically set within the range of
the maximum input level in order to prevent distortion.
• The limiter circuit of the PCM recorder does not compensate
for clipping when audio over 12 dB is input. In this case, sound
may be distorted.
===================================
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on November 06, 2009, 12:42:01 PM
not sure if the limiter circuit is the same as the D50.

from the m-10 instruction manual

http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/11777-PCMM10%20Operation.pdf (http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/11777-PCMM10%20Operation.pdf)

=============================
z On the limiter circuit
• The limiter circuit functions to keep the signal level below the
maximum input level. When a loud sound is input suddenly, the
excess part of the sound is automatically set within the range of
the maximum input level in order to prevent distortion.
• The limiter circuit of the PCM recorder does not compensate
for clipping when audio over 12 dB is input. In this case, sound
may be distorted.
===================================

This sounds the same.  I'm still not sure how this works in practice.  I've got both the PCM-D50 and M10, so I will try it eventually.  When I get time.

What I'm wondering is if the signal suddenly drops by 12dB or if it is gradual.  And if there is any marker in the file.  Ideally a marker in the file would allow us to reconstruct that lost dynamic range, effictively converting the 16bit recorded file to a 18bit file, where the 2 extra bits are the headroom afforded by the limiter.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on November 06, 2009, 01:26:56 PM
apparently, it patches the -20db piece, then normalizes it to 0db.

pretty cool.

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/10/sony-pcm-d50-recorder-review.html?page=2

=====================================
One of the most talked about features of the expensive Sony PCM-D1 is its unique limiter. It works like this: the recorder creates two audio files during recording. One is written to memory, another — recorded 20dB down — is held in a buffer. If peaks exceed zero (i.e., maximum digital level), the recorder grabs a portion of the safety track and writes it to memory. I am happy to say that the D50 shares this feature.
PCM-D50 Limiter Waveform
Fig. 1: Instead of distorting when you record too loud, the D50 deftly swaps in a parallel safety track captured at a lower level and then normalized to zero (top arrow).

How does sound? To be honest, it works so well I didn't know it was engaged. I'm so used to hearing poorly implemented dynamics processors drastically ducking the audio and then sucking the levels back up that at first I thought my review unit wasn't functioning properly!

To test it, I purposely slammed the levels, causing the red LEDs to flash like Rudolph's nose (hey, it was just before Christmas). Listening back, I didn't hear any clipping, but I didn't hear any pumping, either. So I imported the files into my DAW and inspected the waveforms under the microscope. I expected to see a 20dB drop whenever the limiter wrote the safety track to memory; when I didn't, I contacted Sony. It turns out everything was just fine; when the safety track kicks in, it's boosted until its peaks are just below zero. (See Figure 1.)

Sure, slam the level too hard and you'll clip the waveform. And with no user-selectable threshold and only three release times (153ms, 1 second, and 1 minute) you have limited control. But the PCM-D50 limiter isn't a conventional limiter (dynamics signal processor). As a result, it doesn't require extensive parameter controls (threshold, release, hold time, etc.) to operate transparently, and that makes it easy to use. This is far and away the most useful limiter I have ever encountered on a portable device.

Fig. 1: Instead of distorting when you record too loud, the D50 deftly swaps in a parallel safety track captured at a lower level and then normalized to zero (top arrow).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on November 06, 2009, 01:32:56 PM

apparently, it patches the -20db piece, then normalizes it to 0db.

pretty cool.

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/10/sony-pcm-d50-recorder-review.html?page=2 (http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/10/sony-pcm-d50-recorder-review.html?page=2)

I believe it is -12dB.

Anyway, what do you mean by "patch in" and "normalize"?  I'm looking for a precise description (ie., algorithm).

From what I can tell by the circuitry (I saw the schematic from the service manual), it has two ADC streams, a regular one and a -12dB attenuated one.  If the levels clip, it just "switches in" the lower sensitivity version, presumeably for a fixed time (1sec, 10sec, 1min, selected from the menu).  I was hoping to be able to be told where the switch is done.  Maybe you can guess from the abrupt "step" in the waveform.  I tried this, but could not find it.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on November 06, 2009, 02:09:59 PM
all that info came from the oreilly review (link above).  I don't really know how it works.

see highlighted revisions.  apparently he went looking for the level drop in the wave form and couldn't find it, because the alternate -20db patch somehow gets normalized to 0db on the fly....(see waveforms in Fig 1 above)

 ???

I'm interested in finding out if this circuit is also in the m10
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on November 06, 2009, 02:42:15 PM
the limiter is described somewhat differently in the d-50 and m-10 manuals. 

also, promotional materials describe the d-50 as having a "dual path limiter" - not so in the m-10 materials,

so I suspect the m-10 does not have the same limiter circuit,  ??? which is a bummer...

If Richard or someone could get the m-10 service manual, I suspect there'd be only one A/D stream.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on November 06, 2009, 02:57:47 PM
anyone know how many volts in the plug-in power?

also - this has a digital limiter, the r09hr says it has an analog limiter.  not sure what the difference is, and if you'd even use one in a stealth situation.  I never used AGC, but I did use the clip setting on my rockboxed IRiver, which actually works.

I was all ready to pull the trigger on an r09hr, until this came out, now I'm on the fence.  My sense is either one would be great, but I'd use this primarily for stealth - so ease of use, low key lighting, easily visible controls, etc.  you've got to love the IRiver remote, which shows you the levels right on it.

The M-10 looks like it has forward facing mics with clip indicators right on them, so if you're clipping, you'd be blinking.  I'd generally use separate mics (AT853) but I'm surprised at the results people have been getting from the built ins...

You can disable all the led's
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on November 07, 2009, 01:07:26 AM
If the limiter in any recording device is operating in the digital domain in almost any way, there's not much point in using it unless you do not intend to post-process the recording (in other words, if you are simply going to listen to it as is, then there's a point, but as soon as you pass it through a DAW, then there's no point).

For any 'dual path' system to be worthwhile to someone intending to post-process the recording, then it would have to operate in the analog domain, which would mean that you'd have to have two preamps per channel, one working with less gain than the other.  Then if the preamp with the higher gain clipped, you could use the one with the lower gain.  I believe this is done with some systems but only for mono recording - you have the right channel operating at (say) 12dB less gain than the left channel, so you have something to fall back on if the left channel clips.

In the R-44 (for comparison) the limiter works by the lowering the preamp gain by 12dB (whenever the limiter is switched on) and then in the digital domain, digital limiting is applied followed by 12dB of digital gain.  There is absolutely no logical difference between this and simply setting the analog gain 12dB down manually yourself, and then applying a VST limiter in your DAW afterwards with 12dB of makeup gain.

Bear in mind that once the signal has been digitised in the recorder it's simple for the processing to look ahead at the data and limit the level entirely seamlessly.  Limiting in the analog domain is that much harder to achieve (perfectly) because the analog circuitry typically doesn't "know" that a peak has been encountered until after the fact.

I don't want to restart the endless arguments about the merits of 16 bits vs 24, but it's generally agreed that 'under-recording' using 24 bits, then normalising later, means that any need to limit or otherwise compress normal musical signals toi avoid analog clipping goes out the window, due to the very large dynamic range in the digital domain that 24 bits provides.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: xpander on November 07, 2009, 04:11:57 AM
Both D1 and D50 have two A/Ds (AK5358s in D50). Right after the usual analog input stages, the signal is split into two paths, both running their own A/D stages, one set for normal recording levels, one running 20dB lower. System controller selects the appropriate line to be committed into memory according to limiter settings.

Like Richard already pondered, I don't think there's any normalizing happening there, but rather a switch between the stages, depending on the (clipping) levels. Also, manual states that levels over 12dB (?) will clip even while the limiter is on....which makes sense in that configuration.

This extra set of A/D circuitry was the first thing I thought they must've taken out of the M10 in order to get it physically smaller and even with lower power consumption than D50...those features don't come for free, after all. Service manual would confirm this, but I quess nobody has one yet?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on November 07, 2009, 05:42:35 AM
Quote
Both D1 and D50 have two A/Ds (AK5358s in D50). Right after the usual analog input stages, the signal is split into two paths, both running their own A/D stages, one set for normal recording levels, one running 20dB lower. System controller selects the appropriate line to be committed into memory according to limiter settings.
It's hard to see the utility of that system - the problem that remains when recording using 24 bits is not digital clipping but analog clipping.  I'm not saying it doesn't work (in typical scenarios) but I don't see how it can!  :)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on November 07, 2009, 07:23:42 AM
One more thing:

The M10 names your recording with the current date and a recording number. If you delete recordings, the M10 keeps incrementing the recording number. If you format the unit, as you would after moving data to your PC, the number is reset back to zero.

That incremental recording number attached to the date will automatically start from "_01" again on the next day, even if you don't format.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: xpander on November 07, 2009, 07:45:46 AM
Quote
Both D1 and D50 have two A/Ds (AK5358s in D50). Right after the usual analog input stages, the signal is split into two paths, both running their own A/D stages, one set for normal recording levels, one running 20dB lower. System controller selects the appropriate line to be committed into memory according to limiter settings.
It's hard to see the utility of that system - the problem that remains when recording using 24 bits is not digital clipping but analog clipping.  I'm not saying it doesn't work (in typical scenarios) but I don't see how it can!  :)

Hmmm. I don't have all the details exactly, as I don't have the service manuals myself...just two little pieces of schemas. Anyways, as far as I can tell..and what I was trying to tell is that the input limiting is "built in" at analog stages in D50, right in front of the ADs.

Nothing but external limiter in front of the recorder would prevent clipping the input stages if you'd have strong enough source. Next option would have something built into pre-amp stages like here, in a way. And the last, manipulating the already digitalized signal, which is kinda moot. Right?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on November 07, 2009, 10:35:15 AM
I cooked up a simple sine wave in Logic this morning, and ran the signal out from my macbook to the M10. I adjusted the output volume on my mac so that the M10 "over" lights lit up during the loudest part of the test tone.

You can examine the test tone (http://sites.google.com/site/niobitepropaganda/sonym10/Sinewithenvelope.aif?attredirects=0&d=1) and the M10 recording (http://sites.google.com/site/niobitepropaganda/sonym10/091107_01.WAV?attredirects=0&d=1).

I don't see any deformation in the shape of the sine wave in the M10 recording. The is some "bounce" to the amplitude of the sine wave at the beginning and end of the loud section.

I'm not sure what (if anything) this says about the M10s limiter.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on November 09, 2009, 12:52:54 AM
FWIW, ran this puppy Friday night....
Put in a brand new 16gb MicroSDHC on my way out the door, got to the show, it was not seen by the unit.  At set break, tried to figure out the issue.
Put it into 2 different cell phones, which could both see the disk and the 16gb free, back in the M10, nada, messed with it for like 20 minutes, formatted it in one of the phones, nada... put it back in the unit so I would not loose it, and it all of a sudden worked.

Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on November 09, 2009, 12:58:53 AM
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=129071.new#new

comparison of 722 to r09hr to m10
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on November 09, 2009, 12:41:18 PM
FWIW, ran this puppy Friday night....
Put in a brand new 16gb MicroSDHC on my way out the door, got to the show, it was not seen by the unit. 

[...]

Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.

What brand, model, and speed class was your MicroSDHC card?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on November 09, 2009, 08:38:34 PM
FWIW, ran this puppy Friday night....
Put in a brand new 16gb MicroSDHC on my way out the door, got to the show, it was not seen by the unit.  At set break, tried to figure out the issue.
Put it into 2 different cell phones, which could both see the disk and the 16gb free, back in the M10, nada, messed with it for like 20 minutes, formatted it in one of the phones, nada... put it back in the unit so I would not loose it, and it all of a sudden worked.

Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.

I had a similar recognition problem with an OEM Sandisk 16GB SDHC card.  I can't remember the exact details, but it took about 5 minutes of messin' with the menu to get it to see the card.  Once it saw it, and formatted has not been an issue since.  I can now switch out 2, 4, or 16GB cards w/o issue.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on November 10, 2009, 12:17:17 AM
Sandisk 16gb card as well: http://www.meritline.com/sandisk-16gb-microsdhc-card---p-32630.aspx
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Artstar on November 10, 2009, 09:59:21 AM
Put it into 2 different cell phones, which could both see the disk and the 16gb free, back in the M10, nada, messed with it for like 20 minutes, formatted it in one of the phones, nada... put it back in the unit so I would not loose it, and it all of a sudden worked.

Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.

If it's anything like the PCM-D50 the question then is, did you format the card as soon as you plugged it in or did you think it would just work with the card as is? If you didn't perform the format, then the card did not have the respective folders created in it. Without those folders, the recorder will not write to the card. Not having an M10 myself, I can't confirm this but I am assuming it's much like it's D50 brother which I know for a fact I had to do. If anything, it's always good practice to format any memory card in its respective gear anyway.

Or was the problem that it didn't even see the card to allow for a format?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: sdong on November 10, 2009, 10:01:05 AM
Quote
Both D1 and D50 have two A/Ds (AK5358s in D50). Right after the usual analog input stages, the signal is split into two paths, both running their own A/D stages, one set for normal recording levels, one running 20dB lower. System controller selects the appropriate line to be committed into memory according to limiter settings.
It's hard to see the utility of that system - the problem that remains when recording using 24 bits is not digital clipping but analog clipping.  I'm not saying it doesn't work (in typical scenarios) but I don't see how it can!  :)

Hmmm. I don't have all the details exactly, as I don't have the service manuals myself...just two little pieces of schemas. Anyways, as far as I can tell..and what I was trying to tell is that the input limiting is "built in" at analog stages in D50, right in front of the ADs.

Nothing but external limiter in front of the recorder would prevent clipping the input stages if you'd have strong enough source. Next option would have something built into pre-amp stages like here, in a way. And the last, manipulating the already digitalized signal, which is kinda moot. Right?

This sounds misleading. The D50 does not 'switch depending on limiter settings'.
It simply digitizes TWO signals. One 20db down (or is it 12db, im not sure atm).
Both are digitized into some buffer memory. Normally, the 'normal level' AD is written to card memory.
Once the normal input get overloaded, the processor *replaces* the previous x seconds (depending on limiter speed settings) of what gets written to card with the signal from AD 2, or more precise, with whats in the temporary memory buffer of AD2 (which records 20db down from normal level). Crossfading is used at the start/end of the little snippet, and the -20db recorded snippet is also normalized of course, to keep the level difference as low as possible.
Really quite simple actually, and very useful.
It does indeed sound like the M10 does something different - something less 'costly' to produce i guess, one DA etc..

Oh and , concerning the M10, has anyone done a comparison to the D50 yet ??
I'd be very interested how it compares, specially noise-level wise...
Cheers
Oh and hi everybody. Just signed up. Been a field recorder for a long time, first with MDs, then R09 and nowadays with a D50 - internal mics and okm.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on November 10, 2009, 03:51:20 PM
If it's anything like the PCM-D50 the question then is, did you format the card as soon as you plugged it in or did you think it would just work with the card as is? If you didn't perform the format, then the card did not have the respective folders created in it. Without those folders, the recorder will not write to the card. Not having an M10 myself, I can't confirm this but I am assuming it's much like it's D50 brother which I know for a fact I had to do. If anything, it's always good practice to format any memory card in its respective gear anyway.

Or was the problem that it didn't even see the card to allow for a format?

I believe the main issue was that the unit didnt recognize the card as being present.  All SD cards come formatted now... but, how can I get the folder structure on there with out a format, as I dont know the structure to create it manually... which came 1st the chicken or the egg?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: labello on November 10, 2009, 04:42:04 PM
Sony PCM M10 Input Noise Comparision

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on November 10, 2009, 08:37:39 PM
Here are the numbers from the Avisoft web page

Sony PCM-M10
EIN -120dBu  unweighted, -122 dBu A-weighted

Edirol R-09HR (Mic Gain High) 
EIN - 115dBu unweighted, -118 dBu A-weighted

Edirol R-09HR (Mic Gain Low)
EIN  - 100 dBu unweighted,  -103dBu A-weighted

The test results have a margin of error of + or - 2 dBu
so the Sony is a bit quieter than the R-09HR.  Whether you
can hear this difference depends on your subject, and particularly
the noise level your mic produces.  Loud band, won't hear it. 
Quiet ambience, probably can hear it if you're using a quiet mic.

Looking a bit further, we find:

Sony PCM-M10 clipping level -57dBu

Edirol R-09HR (Mic gain High) clipping level -43dBu

Edirol R-09HR (Mic gain Low) clipping level -22dBu

This means the Sony is pretty likely to clip (or be forced to use
its limiter to avoid clipping) when recording a loud band.
The R-09HR is less likely to clip.

Flintstone

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: labello on November 10, 2009, 08:46:29 PM
and another link:

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-battery-life.html
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on November 10, 2009, 09:51:19 PM
Here are the numbers from the Avisoft web page

Sony PCM-M10
EIN -120dBu  unweighted, -122 dBu A-weighted

Edirol R-09HR (Mic Gain High) 
EIN - 115dBu unweighted, -118 dBu A-weighted

Edirol R-09HR (Mic Gain Low)
EIN  - 100 dBu unweighted,  -103dBu A-weighted

The test results have a margin of error of + or - 2 dBu
so the Sony is a bit quieter than the R-09HR.  Whether you
can hear this difference depends on your subject, and particularly
the noise level your mic produces.  Loud band, won't hear it. 
Quiet ambience, probably can hear it if you're using a quiet mic.

Looking a bit further, we find:

Sony PCM-M10 clipping level -57dBu

Edirol R-09HR (Mic gain High) clipping level -43dBu

Edirol R-09HR (Mic gain Low) clipping level -22dBu

This means the Sony is pretty likely to clip (or be forced to use
its limiter to avoid clipping) when recording a loud band.
The R-09HR is less likely to clip.

Flintstone

I just ran the m10 last night for metallica going mic in(no pre or bb) with the pad on and using my hlsc-1's(4.7k mod) with absolutely great results, i was in a great spot and it was really loud, the gain was at about 2.5, nice crisp solid recording, no signs of clipping whatsoever, extremely pleased, so much so I am selling the PMD620(which was awesome for running mic in)and taking the M10 for a full time run.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dbxp on November 11, 2009, 01:21:02 AM
Thanks flintstone for posting the link. Indeed great EIN for a smaller recorder.

IMHO, -57dBu clipping level is not a disadvantage. It shows that the pre-amp has a solid 50ish dB of gain that can handle dynamic mic's with ease. Similarly, the Sony D50 has -58 dBu of clipping level.

Simply dial down the level control to avoid clipping. It is true that the best EIN is always measured at the maximum gain. But a properly designed amplifier chain has limited noise floor degradation with attenuation right before A/D.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on November 11, 2009, 02:45:37 AM
Just home from taping Metallica tonigh (as well as others this week) and I have a couple of comments:
* tape over the auto levels button for 2 reasons
   #1 when you hit (or accidentally hit) the button, there is a second or so mute while it switches the record mode)
   #2 the auto levels seems to be pretty horrible sounding
* even if the over lights are not coming on, you could be hitting the 0 (zero) level of peak

Other thoughts:
* I miss the R09hr screen which stays on but very very low, so you can see the levels in the dark better
* a 4hr show and a 3hr show on a practically brand new set of Thomas Dist 2700 mah batteries, and batter meter still shows full
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on November 11, 2009, 08:35:50 AM
* tape over the auto levels button for 2 reasons

Isn't there a hold button on the M10?

* a 4hr show and a 3hr show on a practically brand new set of Thomas Dist 2700 mah batteries, and batter meter still shows full

Impressive! :o
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on November 11, 2009, 08:51:18 AM
* tape over the auto levels button for 2 reasons

Isn't there a hold button on the M10?

* a 4hr show and a 3hr show on a practically brand new set of Thomas Dist 2700 mah batteries, and batter meter still shows full

Impressive! :o

Actually this is the third show(Metallica) i have run on the stock batteries and have run for over 8 hours and the battery meter is still full(carried a backup set just in case)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Craig T on November 11, 2009, 09:34:31 AM
Sony PCM M10 Input Noise Comparision

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

Am I correct in assuming the avisoft measurements are of the mic input and do not apply to the line input?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Artstar on November 11, 2009, 10:30:27 AM
I believe the main issue was that the unit didnt recognize the card as being present.

Fair enough then. Perhaps formatting it again on a PC card reader might've been one way to get the card to be seen and then format it again in the M10 itself? Anyway, sounds like it was more of a glitch than a drama, thankfully.

Quote
All SD cards come formatted now... but, how can I get the folder structure on there with out a format, as I dont know the structure to create it manually...

They generally do come formatted though not with the folder structure Sony's gear requires. You can take a look at a card from another recorder and recreate it on your PC with a card reader though it would be so much easier to just perform the format on the M10 if it likes your card to begin with. :)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Artstar on November 11, 2009, 10:32:05 AM
* tape over the auto levels button for 2 reasons

Isn't there a hold button on the M10?

My thoughts exactly. Surely Sony wouldn't break their long standing tradition of including a hold button on their portable gear, would they?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: kfrinkle on November 11, 2009, 10:34:09 AM
There is a hold button, at least according to the manual.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on November 11, 2009, 10:37:29 AM
"the avisoft measurements are of the mic input and do not apply to the line input"

Correct.  Raimund Specht tested mic input only.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on November 11, 2009, 10:39:08 AM
There is a hold button, at least according to the manual.

Yes the hold button is also the on off button which you slide up to hold and slide down and hold for a couple seconds to turn off/on
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on November 11, 2009, 11:44:12 AM
Actually this is the third show(Metallica) i have run on the stock batteries and have run for over 8 hours and the battery meter is still full

That's really incredible... a pair of batteries may be enough to do a weekend festival.  8)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 11, 2009, 12:07:32 PM
There is a hold button, at least according to the manual.

Yes the hold button is also the on off button which you slide up to hold and slide down and hold for a couple seconds to turn off/on

You can still change the auto/manual , mic sensitivity, and record level with the hold on. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on November 11, 2009, 12:09:56 PM
You can still change the auto/manual , mic sensitivity, and record level with the hold on.

Too bad, that's a weakness of the R-09HR too.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on November 11, 2009, 12:15:53 PM
There is a hold button, at least according to the manual.

Yes the hold button is also the on off button which you slide up to hold and slide down and hold for a couple seconds to turn off/on

it would take a lot of messing around to turn that dial or to move the mic sens and auto/man switch, in my opinion not an issue, this is the best little machine like this so far and just built rock solid, and i don't feel the lights coming on for a few seconds when you press a button is big deal either with everyone checking there pnones and texting these days, i regularly check them and i generally feel security doesn't notice it any more than a phone, hell at the Metallica show in Indy in Oct i had a security guy facing me about 3-4 ft away(i was first row by a entrance to the floor) the whole show i went about my business and he never took a second look.

You can still change the auto/manual , mic sensitivity, and record level with the hold on.
[/quot
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 11, 2009, 12:21:47 PM
You can still change the auto/manual , mic sensitivity, and record level with the hold on.

Too bad, that's a weakness of the R-09HR too.

I like that I can adjust them without taking the hold off.  The switch is not likely to be accidentally tripped in my experience. These are the settings you will mostly need to adjust after recording is in progress.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dennisrtyler on November 11, 2009, 01:01:13 PM
would any of you m10 owners be willing to do a quick test for me? i need to know how clearly the internals pick up speech from 10 ft. away. thanks!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: prof_peabody on November 11, 2009, 02:06:29 PM
You can still change the auto/manual , mic sensitivity, and record level with the hold on.

Too bad, that's a weakness of the R-09HR too.

Input level is NOT adjustable when the hold is engaged on the R-09HR.  All the other options are easily locked with a piece of scotch tape.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Nick's Picks on November 11, 2009, 03:43:42 PM
does that tape come stock?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: H₂O on November 11, 2009, 05:15:11 PM
That's really incredible... a pair of batteries may be enough to do a weekend festival.  8)

The manual says it can record for 22 hours or so on one set of AA batteries at 24/96.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Artstar on November 11, 2009, 06:47:46 PM
You can still change the auto/manual , mic sensitivity, and record level with the hold on.

Ah, I see now! It's not a button. It's a latching slide switch. In which case, if it's anything like the slide switches on my D50, then it'll be no threat in its leather case if somebody ever makes one for it. I saw Sony's idea of a carrying case for it and it's a friggin' box rather than a leather case with a belt clip like my D50's case. Disappointing!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on November 11, 2009, 10:25:48 PM
then it'll be no threat in its leather case if somebody ever makes one for it. I saw Sony's idea of a carrying case for it and it's a friggin' box rather than a leather case with a belt clip like my D50's case. Disappointing!

I found a case that fits the M10 like a glove, and it's cheap.

It's a Kodak (model 123-0671) found at my local Canadian Tire store ($9.99), and it's also on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Kodak-Slim-select-digital-cameras/dp/B0013HY3Q6/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1255126661&sr=1-18

See pics of it earlier in this thread at Reply #110 on the page linked here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.105

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 11, 2009, 11:20:19 PM
 I have two cases for my M 10. A Lowepro I got at Best Buy that I had for a camera . It has places to store batteries and a memory card adapter.My other one I found at Dollar Tree it stretches to fit perfectly with the top sides cut out so the mics are not covered. The second one fits into the first one snug.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gmm6797 on November 11, 2009, 11:47:15 PM
I have gaffers tape over all 3 of the external switches, as they all can be changed while the deck is running.

The volume will also turn while in use, but that is a good thing.

On my R09hr, never had once of the 5 switches move on me in "hat" mode, and I ran that puppy for some 16 months and probably 100+ shows
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: labello on November 12, 2009, 01:51:56 AM
good review of the M10

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/sony-pcm-m10-review.html
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Artstar on November 12, 2009, 09:03:22 AM
I found a case that fits the M10 like a glove, and it's cheap.

It's a Kodak (model 123-0671) found at my local Canadian Tire store ($9.99), and it's also on Amazon:

Very nice and thank you for the info. I just had a brainwave when I saw your photos though. It seems the unit is no bigger than my old MZ-R50 MD unit. In which case, I still have my leather cases from Servired which I could still use with this beast perhaps! If they don't work out, I'll definitely take the Kodak option. Thanks again man.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 13, 2009, 09:24:48 PM
The manual is available under the Resources tab on this page, for those who haven't downloaded it yet:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PCMM10/B/

So far no one has mentioned:

Track Mark and Divide - two different things
What I love about this unit, after reading the manual (which is of a very high standard; I'm a big fan of Sony excellent manuals which they always put a lot of effort in) is the fact that Track Mark is a separate feature to Divide. Previously (PCM-D50) you had to Divide to easily get to a point you wanted to get to, which means the file was physically split in two, each division getting a different suffix added to its name. No way around it. But now you can Track Mark and only optionally Divide tracks (if you want to). Track Marks can also be deleted easily (again without physical changes to the WAV file). The only downside I see is that Track Marks can only be located in STOP mode, not while playing back. I'm guessing PLAY would skip between actual files as usual.

Anyway, great!

You can also PROTECT tracks. (Page 64)
So even when you delete a whole folder worth of rubbish, the Protected track(s) won't be deleted. Nice time-saver and an easy way to free up memory if you needed some in a hurry. Better usability is always welcome.

Adding a TAKE or KEEP to a file name also sounds like a nicer way to manage content! (Page 62)

Playback Modes
PCM-D50 had A-B Repeat and Repeat 1 (to play a track repeatedly). That's it. The PCM-M10 offers far more Playback Modes (Page 51 and 52). Nice to see more effort being put into this.

Key Control sounds interesting. Anyone tried it? Thoughts?

I also like the fact that if the unit is dropped, the battery cover may become detached, rather than deformed / damaged presumably. (Page 12). I also like that the NiMH batteries can be selected in-menu for more accurate battery life measurements.

All this means is I will get an early Christmas present.

The only niggling worry is talk of MicroSD cards not being recognised. According to the manual (and I hate to state the obvious), the cards have to be inserted as shown on Page 36. But more tellingly it also states on that page:
-------------
• If a memory card is not recognized, remove
it and then insert it into the PCM recorder
again.

-------------
Which suggests to me that they are aware of this being a possibility. Maybe a necessary compromise to have both types of cards work in the same slot? Which is a shame, because who wants Memory Stick Micro over MicroSD. Perhaps there are Sony loyalists out there with a stack of M2 cards that need to be re-purposed!

 





Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: su6oxone on November 13, 2009, 09:37:51 PM
good review of the M10

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/sony-pcm-m10-review.html

Quote
The battery life of the PCM-M10 is truly amazing, beyond outstanding. It lasted 43 hours (that's right, 43 hours) during our battery life test.

 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 13, 2009, 10:23:51 PM
That battery life test isn't really what I want to see.
* They recorded in 128K MP3 on the PCM-M10 (supposedly to avoid them replacing a card with another one). I would have put a second card in and continued recording a second time, giving a total recording time. After all, the recorder stops after recording, so even if you are sleeping you will know it recorded for the length of the time on one card and shut itself off.
* The PCM-D50 and PCM-D1 units (that can't record MP3), they used 16bit/22.05KHz settings (presumably to more closely match the data rate of MP3). But possibly one of the most rarely-used settings on a recorder like this, if we are being realistic.
* They used disposable batteries.

Hardly realistic for most people living in 2009.

I would prefer a far more realistic scenario:
* 24bit / 96KHz, perhaps standard 16bit/44.1 and other standard quality settings
* 2000mAh+ NiMH rechargeables.
* Monitoring with headphones and without (mentioning any specifics like volume level and headphone make/model here).

I think comparing the manuals of the PCM-D50 and PCM-M10 gives a good guide of the improvement in battery life over the PCM-D50 (which was excellent itself). So that's great to see. Maybe taking out the optical circuitry, slightly reducing the power of the headphone amp, change of mics and general focus on power consumption with its smaller 2-battery design really brought the best out of the engineers.

Sony states 37 hour battery life recording MP3 at 128k using their own rechargeable batteries, with no monitoring "...using methods proprietary to Sony."  Heh..

More realistic quality settings with monitoring makes the battery life drop to a mere EXCELLENT :)
(but using the Limiter, Low-Cut Filter plus monitoring at the same time will all probably bring that down some, too)


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on November 14, 2009, 10:55:10 AM
"That battery life test isn't really what I want to see. "

So buy 16 recorders and do your own comparison test  :D

The Wingfield Audio battery test is a real contribution.  These are the only published results I can find that compare battery life of most all of the pocket-size audio recorders under controlled conditions.  This produces an accurate picture of how the recorders compare to each other in battery power consumption. 

Flintstone
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on November 14, 2009, 04:15:59 PM
"the noise floor of the M10 line input is approximately -92 dBu(A)"

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/message/38976
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on November 14, 2009, 06:27:59 PM
Re: battery life.

I just left my recorder in pause-record mode for 12hrs and it went down one half bar (at most).  Incredible.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on November 14, 2009, 10:42:31 PM
It's as well that this model is not available in Australia as I'm seriously tempted, despite the fact that these days I'm doing very little recording. 

Having followed the Minidisc road from the very first portable model to the last (fortunately for my bank balance I didn't buy every model in between, only some) this seems to be the natural successor to that sadly-ended product line.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: JM Charcot on November 15, 2009, 04:10:56 AM
Is it possible to upgrade the firmware (like on the R09..) or is it blocked like on the D50?

JM.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 15, 2009, 05:56:50 AM
Is it possible to upgrade the firmware (like on the R09..) or is it blocked like on the D50?

JM.

I guess it would be nice (larger 32GB SD card support comes to mind for the future; it currently supports up to 16GB) but I'm guessing the firmware won't be user-upgradeable. Bad if there are any bugs, I guess. The PCM-D1 was lacking in this regard, too - and still remains hampered by small stick support last I checked. For the money that model sells for, you'd expect more.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on November 15, 2009, 02:36:11 PM
Here is an excellent show I taped Friday night using the M10 and AT943 cards into a CA ST-9100 going "line-in".  The deck performed admirably, easy to read screen for checking levels, and it really does look like a cell phone in the dark.

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=276355

David
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 17, 2009, 08:31:18 PM
B&H just dropped the price of the PCM-M10 by $10 to $289.95.
Regular one is being listed as $289.95 after "adding to cart".
Red one is being listed as $289.95 without having to add to cart.
I'm sure I saw it somewhere else for $279.95, though.

Anyway, nice little sweetener, but I think throwing in the wind muff would be a better idea, eh :)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on November 18, 2009, 12:03:19 AM
Anyway, nice little sweetener, but I think throwing in the wind muff would be a better idea, eh :)

I'd be happy if B&H actually sold the windscreen.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: e.maynard on November 18, 2009, 11:56:39 AM
Quick question to any of you PCM-M10 owners.
Does the use of a dynamic mic create the kind of noise as heard in the Wingfield samples? Or do they have a bad cable over there?

Thanks!

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: svend on November 19, 2009, 07:59:20 AM
Quick question to any of you PCM-M10 owners.
Does the use of a dynamic mic create the kind of noise as heard in the Wingfield samples? Or do they have a bad cable over there?

Thanks!

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples

For a first test I plugged my in-ear phone Sennheiser CX 300-II (16 Ohm) into the mic input and recorded at max input gain: The background noise was close to white, did definitely not sound like computer/display cross talk :-)

Svend
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: udovdh on November 19, 2009, 10:12:44 AM
Did the Sonicstudio guy already do a review of the Sony M10?
I would be interested to learn about the real performance of this unit w.r.t. audio: SNR, THD, spectrums, input sensitivity, etc, etc.
Not just the specs, but the real values.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on November 19, 2009, 05:12:56 PM
Paging Guysonic!

Would you be interested in testing a stock Sony PCM-M10?

Flintstone
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: guysonic on November 20, 2009, 03:20:03 AM
Waiting for a kind PCM-M10 loan for doing the usual input tests.

Anyone up for a two week loan?

Email me at guysonic@aol.com
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: acidjack on November 23, 2009, 10:34:00 AM
Yeah, surprisingly small!  Looks comparable to the R-09HR.

More or less exactly the same size as the R-09HR. I created a sizeasy for them:
http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/25751-Tascam-DR-07-vs-Sony-PCM-M10-vs-Edirol-R-09HR-vs-Sanyo-ICR-PS503RM

This is really helpful. I am trying to decide whether to go the M10 route. Not sure it makes that much sense for me since it's about the R-09HR's size and I can run an external pre....
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on November 23, 2009, 04:26:03 PM
What's the deal on the "cross-memory" recording - ie, it starts recording on the internal memory, then overflows to the card.

does it appear as one track when you plug it into USB?  for that matter, does it show up as a mass storage device on USB?

can you set it to record direct to the SD card, bypassing the internal memory?

also, this does 48 and 96.  I see the Edirol R-09HR also does 88.2, which I read somewhere converts better / easier / more accurately to 44.1 (truth?)  any opinions?

thanks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 23, 2009, 04:33:59 PM
You can set it to record on either internal or the card and it will switch over to the other when full.
I have not done this yet but I would think it would be seperate files. I think it would be seamless when it switches over to the other memory with nothing missing of the recording.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: anr on November 24, 2009, 12:54:47 PM
I've been thinking about one of these to replace a rather dilapidated RO-9, but Sony UK want a whopping £310, which is well over $400 by my reckoning. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: RichT on November 24, 2009, 01:04:19 PM
I've been looking out for one of these in the UK too, only UK dealer I've found advertising it is this:
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/product/42953-sony-pcm-m10-portable-recorder.html
£460 !!! (more than the D-50)
=US$762  :o
almost double the US RRP

thomann in germany have got it at $=£ http://www.thomann.de/gb/sony_pcm_m10_anthrazit_bundle.htm
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Flashmd on November 24, 2009, 01:32:19 PM
Unfortunately ANR...worldwide sales have always resulted in price fluctation that sometimes is plain unavoidable.

I do have plans to order the PCM-M10 for it's smaller footprint, but do have a question regarding whete or not it will produce the same "gapless track division" I so appreciate with my PCM-D50. Any idea for those that have one handy, whether the tradition lives on with the PCM-M10, thanks.

Gordon
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: kfrinkle on November 24, 2009, 01:33:44 PM
I would like to know how 'easy' it is to turn the volume knob that does not lock with the lock button....
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on November 24, 2009, 03:41:29 PM
Value added tax means higher prices in countries outside USA.
We gt low prices for gear.  They get universal health care, no cost
or low cost universities, public transportation that works, and so on.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: prof_peabody on November 24, 2009, 03:47:55 PM
Value added tax means higher prices in countries outside USA.
We gt low prices for gear.  They get universal health care, no cost
or low cost universities, public transportation that works, and so on.

Not to mention that USA gets 10% worse care than most western countries for about 25% more than it costs in other countries.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 24, 2009, 04:08:44 PM
Concerning the volume control not locking  I feel like it isnt a problem with the guard around it. I have not had any issues with the voulme changing when it is in my pocket. When I need to adjust the level it is easy to do,so I would not want it to lock.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on November 24, 2009, 04:54:16 PM
Is it a digital volume control or proper analogue?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 24, 2009, 08:21:48 PM
I believe its analogue not like the H2 Zoom . Ill let the more technical
guys answer about the details of that. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Falconidave on November 24, 2009, 11:31:19 PM
Unfortunately ANR...worldwide sales have always resulted in price fluctation that sometimes is plain unavoidable.

I do have plans to order the PCM-M10 for it's smaller footprint, but do have a question regarding whete or not it will produce the same "gapless track division" I so appreciate with my PCM-D50. Any idea for those that have one handy, whether the tradition lives on with the PCM-M10, thanks.

Gordon

The very same gapless track division as the D50.  I've recorded several shows with my M10 and I love it.  The only thing I don't know yet is whether or not the plug-in power provided is sufficient to power my AT's and Church microphones.  I guess we'll have to wait for Guysonic to do his test.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Flashmd on November 25, 2009, 01:49:07 AM
Thanks Dave,

Gapless division between tracks is a hot issue for DAP users and myself. I also have the R-09HR and LS-10..both interrupt track after track very annoying. That is one of the reasons I still prefer Minidisc format for it's seamless playback, very flexible editing for sure :) Well looks like I'll be plucking down the dollars for this PCM-M10. It seems to be the all around favorite in my book. With regard to PIP Dave, I hope it has the Mic drive for your setup.

Take Care,

Gordon
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Grey Area on November 25, 2009, 03:52:01 AM
Gapless division between tracks is a hot issue for DAP users and myself.

I'm more of a listener than a taper, so I'm also interested in this gapless ability. It might not be the kind of "gaplessness" I'm looking for, though - the PCM-M10 may not create a gap in the audio data when dividing tracks, but does it also play the tracks seamlessly, without a break in the playback? And if so, does this also work for mp3-files? The latter is usually the big issue for listeners, as the mp3-format is prone to gaps due to the way it encodes the data, and regrettably few DAP-makers ensure their players can play the tracks without short pauses inbetween.

Cheers,
Björn
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: bucsab12 on November 25, 2009, 05:13:26 AM
On the Zoon H2 I used to have, there was the gap issue after the 2 GB file size has been reached. I think Zoom released a software fix for this recently.

Can anyone tell me if the same problem happens on the Edirol R09-HR? Is there a gap between the two files or does it start recording the second file right after the first one has ended?

Thank you
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Flashmd on November 25, 2009, 07:46:22 AM
On the Zoon H2 I used to have, there was the gap issue after the 2 GB file size has been reached. I think Zoom released a software fix for this recently.

Can anyone tell me if the same problem happens on the Edirol R09-HR? Is there a gap between the two files or does it start recording the second file right after the first one has ended?

Thank you

Regarding R09-HR... The recorded file that is Split both at 2GB Limit or Manually, remains seamless. However... during playback on R09-HR, there is a Gap at the Split point. I verified the fact the file remains seamless by Combining the Split files using the new Ver. 2.0 Firmware update from Edirol for the R-09HR. This update is a fine addition to this recorder.

Hope this clears up any misleadings:)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ekib on November 25, 2009, 07:49:23 AM
Can you still use Sonic Stage software with this unit ?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: hoppedup on November 25, 2009, 08:17:43 AM
Can you still use Sonic Stage software with this unit ?

It looks like it has Soundforge Audio Studio packaged with it. It also came with the D50. It doesn't have all the features of Sound Forge, but it's worked well enough for me.

I only use Sonic Stage to transfer/convert those *&^%$ .oma files from my Hi-MD to PC. Don't know why you'd want or need to use it with this unit.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 25, 2009, 08:37:16 AM
Can you still use Sonic Stage software with this unit ?

Oh no, now you've done it. You said it.
The S word.

The world will start to implode in 1... 2....
"Unchain me!", your audio cries.
"Copy me like a data file", sez another.
"Free me!" sez the WAV file.

They do get scared and start speaking like crazies when the S word is mentioned. Please consider their sensitivities.

There there, little audio files. The world is safe.
For now.
 >:D
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: RichT on November 25, 2009, 09:23:15 AM
Value added tax means higher prices in countries outside USA.
We gt low prices for gear.  They get universal health care, no cost
or low cost universities, public transportation that works, and so on.
we're on 15% VAT rather than 163% - I've found another dealer advertising that same price now, it really is silly.  You can get a PCM-D50 for £430
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on November 25, 2009, 10:39:37 AM
I like the upgradeable firmware of the Edirol.  The Sony is locked down, right?

Also, anyone comment on any advantage of an 88.2 Sampling Rate over 96?  Edirol has both, Sony only 96.  I don't know if the easier math makes for a better downsample from 88.2->44.1   ???
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ekib on November 25, 2009, 02:12:57 PM
Can you still use Sonic Stage software with this unit ?

It looks like it has Soundforge Audio Studio packaged with it. It also came with the D50. It doesn't have all the features of Sound Forge, but it's worked well enough for me.

I only use Sonic Stage to transfer/convert those *&^%$ .oma files from my Hi-MD to PC. Don't know why you'd want or need to use it with this unit.

Because it's an easy and simple piece of software . And the latest version automatically converts any HI MD file to WAV anyway.

Anyone here used HI MD also and used the new PCM-M10 instead ?
I still don't see any reason why I should retire my MZ RH1 over the new PCM-10.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: hoppedup on November 25, 2009, 02:45:15 PM
Anyone here used HI MD also and used the new PCM-M10 instead ?
I still don't see any reason why I should retire my MZ RH1 over the new PCM-10.

I have and still use Hi-MD. And I have a PCM D50. A few reasons to use a PCM-M10 instead:

1. You can record with more bit depth and higher sampling rate
2. You can get a microSD card and record lossless audio for hours rather than 94 minutes
3. You have more control over gain/levels
4. No disc swaps
5. Records wav files that don't require proprietary software to import

Why I keep my Hi-MD:

1. Stealthy as hell
2. I have more mics than recorders, so I can run it as a backup
3. Convenient for acts under 94 minutes
4. It makes great recordings
5. I found this website a few weeks too late and paid way too much for it

If you're happy with what you have, there really is no reason to change. I will retire my HiMD when it dies of mechanical failure or the Li-Ion battery quits.




 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 25, 2009, 04:57:21 PM
Anyone here used HI MD also and used the new PCM-M10 instead ?
I still don't see any reason why I should retire my MZ RH1 over the new PCM-10.

1) no mechanical noise at all means integrated mics are possible with zero chance of undesirables. It also means never being concerned with muffling the sound of your unit with close-up quiet recordings
2) far higher power headphone output, useful for monitoring (and listening) with a wider range of higher-impedance (and/or less sensitive) hi-fi headphones, rather than being limited to lower-impedance (and usually worse-sounding) 'phones
3) native drag-n-drop for audio files, no conversions necessary
4) speed of copying audio files to (and from) virtually any modern PC is like comparing a car to a snail (Hi-MD), and with no intermediary conversion software needed on any machine to do so
5) 24 bit audio allows far more 'wiggle room' with levels
6) on-board display and controls (buttons, etc) and indicators are better (but it would be nice to see some MD-type remotes)
7) battery life is far better (but then again these units still are bigger)
8) storage capacity and low cost of media means you can record at the highest quality continuously without worrying about disc swaps or hunting out new Hi-MDs in shops (MicroSD is far more popular than Hi-MD ever was)
9) far more stable non-OLED display (that doesn't fade with use) that can be seen in the sun just as visibly as traditional LCDs too (because it is one)
10) far more bit-rate and sampling-rate choices
11) faster editing of audio files on-unit

I still love my Hi-MD units for their small size, optical ins, remotes, playback modes and editing/titling features - some of which the new recorders don't have.

Sony's current recorders (and the PCM-M10) remind me so much of old-school Sony: innovation and solid hardware without the DRM paranoia - and now with far more reasonable pricing aimed at the masses. It's been a long while since I have been this excited about a product range from Sony.

(I currently make love to the PCM-D50 daily).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Nick's Picks on November 26, 2009, 04:35:43 AM
ewe.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Nick's Picks on November 26, 2009, 04:36:26 AM
but I like the potential of the d50/d10 option.  the optical input is what I'd like for future needs , though there are only a small handful of decks that would utilise it and be worth while...but if the preamp is clean on it...., then I dont really care about digital inputs and the d10 will do just fine.  especially since it seems to be as well liked (at least thus far) as the R9HR, does some things better...maybe some things worse.  been freakin' years since I've owned a Sony recording deck.   YEARS....., like 12.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ekib on November 28, 2009, 04:56:09 PM
Anyone here used HI MD also and used the new PCM-M10 instead ?
I still don't see any reason why I should retire my MZ RH1 over the new PCM-10.

I have and still use Hi-MD. And I have a PCM D50. A few reasons to use a PCM-M10 instead:

1. You can record with more bit depth and higher sampling rate
2. You can get a microSD card and record lossless audio for hours rather than 94 minutes
3. You have more control over gain/levels
4. No disc swaps
5. Records wav files that don't require proprietary software to import

Why I keep my Hi-MD:

1. Stealthy as hell
2. I have more mics than recorders, so I can run it as a backup
3. Convenient for acts under 94 minutes
4. It makes great recordings
5. I found this website a few weeks too late and paid way too much for it

If you're happy with what you have, there really is no reason to change. I will retire my HiMD when it dies of mechanical failure or the Li-Ion battery quits.

Quote
1) no mechanical noise at all means integrated mics are possible with zero chance of undesirables. It also means never being concerned with muffling the sound of your unit with close-up quiet recordings
2) far higher power headphone output, useful for monitoring (and listening) with a wider range of higher-impedance (and/or less sensitive) hi-fi headphones, rather than being limited to lower-impedance (and usually worse-sounding) 'phones
3) native drag-n-drop for audio files, no conversions necessary
4) speed of copying audio files to (and from) virtually any modern PC is like comparing a car to a snail (Hi-MD), and with no intermediary conversion software needed on any machine to do so
5) 24 bit audio allows far more 'wiggle room' with levels
6) on-board display and controls (buttons, etc) and indicators are better (but it would be nice to see some MD-type remotes)
7) battery life is far better (but then again these units still are bigger)
8) storage capacity and low cost of media means you can record at the highest quality continuously without worrying about disc swaps or hunting out new Hi-MDs in shops (MicroSD is far more popular than Hi-MD ever was)
9) far more stable non-OLED display (that doesn't fade with use) that can be seen in the sun just as visibly as traditional LCDs too (because it is one)
10) far more bit-rate and sampling-rate choices
11) faster editing of audio files on-unit

I still love my Hi-MD units for their small size, optical ins, remotes, playback modes and editing/titling features - some of which the new recorders don't have.

Sony's current recorders (and the PCM-M10) remind me so much of old-school Sony: innovation and solid hardware without the DRM paranoia - and now with far more reasonable pricing aimed at the masses. It's been a long while since I have been this excited about a product range from Sony.

(I currently make love to the PCM-D50 daily).

Thanks for the pro's and con's !
Very interesting to read !

Quote
1. You can record with more bit depth and higher sampling rate
2. You can get a microSD card and record lossless audio for hours rather than 94 minutes

Do you really hear the difference ? I ask because when I used to record with DAT I never heard the difference between LP and SP at all. And I have a very good High End Audio set to compare
I have always felt the biggest difference are the mic's. Whatever is used to record is almost second rate. Especially recording digital I don't think there is that much difference ( at least what your ears really can hear , there will be a difference when you look at technical specificatons ).
So to me a recorder has to be practical. It seems this new SONY PCM-M10 seems very easy to work with.
Still I would feel kind of funny about not having an original "masterdisc"( or in the old days mastertaper).

Does the PCM-M10 has an analog line out ?
Also does this unit have a "low" ( or -20DB ) mic setting ?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: hoppedup on November 28, 2009, 05:11:43 PM
Do you really hear the difference ? I ask because when I used to record with DAT I never heard the difference between LP and SP at all.

I think Hi-SP sounds fine and I may use it in the future. But not likely.

I share most everything I record, so I like recording in a lossless format. The first recording I made was in Hi-SP and I still listen to it often. It sounds great. But now I can record 24/48 for around 8 hours with an 8gb card. So I do.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 28, 2009, 10:00:08 PM
Does the PCM-M10 has an analog line out ?
Also does this unit have a "low" ( or -20DB ) mic setting ?

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PCMM10/B/
Under the Resources tab, there's the manual. This and more are answered. It's a great read, actually. I enjoy the Sony manuals.

Yes to analogue output (page 58 and 59)
HI / LOW sensitivity switch for mic  (page 42-43)

Oh and I forgot to mention other benefits over MD: PRE-RECording feature (allows 5 seconds to be buffered when in PAUSE-RECORD mode) can avoid those "I missed it" moments and the great Limiter on the PCM-D50 can save your buttski if you have it turned on during a loud passage. Low Cut Filter is also useful, too - especially if your mics don't have one.

Anyway, you may be curious about some of the differences between the PCM-M10 and PCM-D50. I mostly list these for my own amusement (I'll be buying it anyway, it's just that I really do want to get it with the windscreen, and ... well, that windscreen is a bit thin on the ground...but see the bit at the end for windscreen talk)


Sony PCM-M10 compared to Sony PCM-D50:
* smaller size (uses 2x AA versus 4x AA)
* more battery life
* built-in speaker
* hand strap and carrying pouch included
* AUTO record level feature added (in addition to Manual)
* added ability to record MP3 and playback AAC and WMA
* remote control bundled (to match some of the competition)
* slightly reduced headphone output (20mW + 20mW into 16 ohms versus 25mW or more on PCM-D50, but still far better than 5mW [or less] used on all Hi-MD
* no optical in or outs
* fixed integrated (omnidirectional) mics versus movable integrated (cardiod) mics
* MicroSD support and Memory Stick Micro [M2] support (rather than Memory Stick Pro Duo)
* bass enhancement feature added (I guess they don't like to call it Mega Bass) (page 56)
* plastic mic and headphone output sockets versus metal on PCM-D50
* VOLUME buttons versus VOLUME dial on PCM-D50 (recording level dial still present)
* ability to change the Display Mode during playback (ie. take the Level Meters off and display more file info instead) - Pages 49 and 50
* more Playback Modes (page 51 and 52)
* ability to choose battery chemistry in-menu for (supposedly) more acccurate battery life measurements (Page 12 and 13)
* ability to choose between 11 languages for the menu display (Pages 18-19)
* option for Cross-memory recording added (Page 39 and 40)
* Low Cut Filter (LCF) only has ON or OFF feature and it's in-menu not a physical switch. Manual doesn't say what frequency it works at (PCM-D50 gives you a choice of 75Hz and 150Hz and a physical switch for quick ON and OFF).
* LIMITER apparently dumbed-down in PCM-M10 and works in a more advanced (and useful) fashion in the PCM-D50 (if I'm reading early impressions correctly)
* Key Control feature added (Pages 55 to 56)
* TAKE and KEEP feature added (page 62 - 63)
* PROTECT feature added (Page 64)
* ability to copy tracks between internal and removable memory (page 65-66)
* headphone / Line Out jack integrated (and switchable setting in-menu) rather than separate jacks
* Backlight button is menu-selectable: (10sec, 60sec, Always-ON, OFF) but dedicated LIGHT button is missing on unit
* HOLD switch is integrated with POWER switch. Powering on now takes a slide of 1 second on the POWER switch and 2 second slide to POWER OFF rather than just being a regular switch that may be accidentally switched when gripping the unit (though this must be very rare given how the PCM-D50 is designed; it's not very conducive to accidental switchings)
* added the ability to add Track Marks (Pages 60-62) as a separate feature to Dividing a track
* more friendly messages for the masses (see the graphic on Page 24)
* T-MARK (Track Marks) now have precedence over Divide (Divide button is missing on front and is now a menu-item). Divide can no longer be performed during recording, but its use has pretty much been replaced by the much more flexible Track Mark. Track-marking also gives the option to Divide any Track Marks you have.
* FOLDER and MENU function are now two separate buttons. Good. Previously these were shared on the same button with a quick press and a longer press separating their functions.
* Dedicated DELETE button added


So Sony giveth and they taketh away, too. But they've done a lot here and it's a great value product, I feel. Sony has looked at the competition and decided on a strong set of features while taking some of the (arguably) less-important ones away (yay for competition).

Windscreen talk
As an aside, the manual hints at the elusive PCM-M10P on the first page (listing the model number there) as well as on Page 9 and Page 92. This model apparently comes with the AD-PCM2 windscreen bundled.

When will we see it? Who knows.
Sony, any word?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jeffee on November 28, 2009, 11:04:42 PM
Wow!  That is a great and very helpful comparison.  Thanks!

I really love my pcm-d50.

-Jeff
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: darktrain on November 28, 2009, 11:32:01 PM
Does the PCM-M10 has an analog line out ?
Also does this unit have a "low" ( or -20DB ) mic setting ?

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PCMM10/B/
Under the Resources tab, there's the manual. This and more are answered. It's a great read, actually. I enjoy the Sony manuals.

Yes to analogue output (page 58 and 59)
HI / LOW sensitivity switch for mic  (page 42-43)

Oh and I forgot to mention other benefits over MD: PRE-RECording feature (allows 5 seconds to be buffered when in PAUSE-RECORD mode) can avoid those "I missed it" moments and the great Limiter on the PCM-D50 can save your buttski if you have it turned on during a loud passage. Low Cut Filter is also useful, too - especially if your mics don't have one.

Anyway, you may be curious about some of the differences between the PCM-M10 and PCM-D50. I mostly list these for my own amusement (I'll be buying it anyway, it's just that I really do want to get it with the windscreen, and ... well, that windscreen is a bit thin on the ground...but see the bit at the end for windscreen talk)


Sony PCM-M10 compared to Sony PCM-D50:
* smaller size (uses 2x AA versus 4x AA)
* more battery life
* no AC adaptor bundled
* built-in speaker
* hand strap and carrying pouch included
* AUTO record level feature added (in addition to Manual)
* added ability to record MP3 and playback AAC and WMA
* remote control bundled (to match some of the competition)
* slightly reduced headphone output (20mW + 20mW into 16 ohms versus 25mW or more on PCM-D50, but still far better than 5mW [or less] used on all Hi-MD
* no optical in or outs
* fixed integrated mics versus movable
* MicroSD support and Memory Stick Micro [M2] support (rather than Memory Stick Pro Duo)
* bass enhancement feature added (I guess they don't like to call it Mega Bass) (page 56)
* plastic mic and headphone output sockets versus metal on PCM-D50
* VOLUME buttons versus VOLUME dial on PCM-D50 (recording level dial still present)
* ability to change the Display Mode during playback (ie. take the Level Meters off and display more file info instead) - Pages 49 and 50
* more Playback Modes (page 51 and 52)
* ability to choose battery chemistry in-menu for (supposedly) more acccurate battery life measurements (Page 12 and 13)
* ability to choose between 11 languages for the menu display (Pages 18-19)
* option for Cross-memory recording added (Page 39 and 40)
* Low Cut Filter (LCF) only has ON or OFF feature and it's in-menu not a physical switch. Manual doesn't say what frequency it works at (PCM-D50 gives you a choice of 75Hz and 150Hz and a physical switch for quick ON and OFF).
* LIMITER apparently dumbed-down in PCM-M10 and works in a more advanced (and useful) fashion in the PCM-D50 (if I'm reading early impressions correctly)
* Key Control feature added (Pages 55 to 56)
* TAKE and KEEP feature added (page 62 - 63)
* PROTECT feature added (Page 64)
* ability to copy tracks between internal and removable memory (page 65-66)
* headphone / Line Out jack integrated (and switchable setting in-menu) rather than separate jacks
* Backlight button is menu-selectable: (10sec, 60sec, Always-ON, OFF) but dedicated LIGHT button is missing on unit
* HOLD switch is integrated with POWER switch. Powering on now takes a slide of 1 second on the POWER switch and 2 second slide to POWER OFF rather than just being a regular switch that may be accidentally switched when gripping the unit (though this must be very rare given how the PCM-D50 is designed; it's not very conducive to accidental switchings)
* added the ability to add Track Marks (Pages 60-62) as a separate feature to Dividing a track
* more friendly messages for the masses (see the graphic on Page 24)
* T-MARK (Track Marks) now have precedence over Divide (Divide button is missing on front and is now a menu-item). Divide can no longer be performed during recording, but its use has pretty much been replaced by the much more flexible Track Mark. Track-marking also gives the option to Divide any Track Marks you have.
* FOLDER and MENU function are now two separate buttons. Good. Previously these were shared on the same button with a quick press and a longer press separating their functions.
* Dedicated DELETE button added


So Sony giveth and they taketh away, too. But they've done a lot here and it's a great value product, I feel. Sony has looked at the competition and decided on a strong set of features while taking some of the (arguably) less-important ones away (yay for competition).

Windscreen talk
As an aside, the manual hints at the elusive PCM-M10P on the first page (listing the model number there) as well as on Page 9 and Page 92. This model apparently comes with the AD-PCM2 windscreen bundled.

When will we see it? Who knows.
Sony, any word?

Actually the M10 does come with  a ac power adapter
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 28, 2009, 11:36:44 PM
Mine did not come with a windscreen.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 29, 2009, 12:25:25 AM
Actually the M10 does come with  a ac power adapter

Excellent. More reason to get the PCM-M10. I always like that option.

The PDF manual doesn't list it. If memory serves, I think even with the PCM-D50 they had other territories where the AC Adaptor wasn't included but other items like a case would be (again, if memory serves).

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 29, 2009, 12:42:32 AM
Mine did not come with a windscreen.

Right. Probably because your model doesn't end in P, right (ie. PCM-M10P)? I haven't seen that selling anywhere but it's mentioned in the manual.

The good thing with the PCM-D50 now is it's bundled with the windscreen at B&H for not-too-much more dollars. Well, ok, maybe $160 more dollars, but it's a fine unit!  :p

Then again, there's always the option to make your own.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on November 29, 2009, 01:08:44 AM
There are windscreens for sale on ebay for the PCM-M10 one for 19.99 and another for 23.99 . there is also an offical Sony windscreen for 62.99.

 I decided to make my own but had a hard time finding faux fur that was long enough. Then I found distinctivefabrics.com they have a 3 inch pyle and if you join their web site they will send you 3 free swatches (no charge for postage even) samples 5 X 3 1/2 " plenty big enough to make a windscreen just get a short piece of elastic and you can make a cheap or free windscreen.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: flintstone on November 29, 2009, 01:27:21 AM
Thanks, tekdroid, for the comparison of the D50 and M10!

Let's add Cross-Memory Recording to the features the M10 has and the D50 lacks.

We should also note that the M10 has a higher level of mic preamp noise than the D50 has, although the difference would be noticeable only when recording a very quiet source with mics that also have very low self-noise.

Flintstone
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on November 29, 2009, 07:18:21 PM
Quote
* fixed integrated mics versus movable
Cardiod vs omni should also be mentioned (which is why the M10 mics don't move - not much point with omnis).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 29, 2009, 08:16:56 PM
Quote
* fixed integrated mics versus movable
Cardiod vs omni should also be mentioned (which is why the M10 mics don't move - not much point with omnis).

Excellent point which I totally overlooked.
I've edited the post to say that, and I've also taken out my bit about it not including an AC adaptor, 'cause apparently it does (at least in the US model, I presume).



This Sony press release states that the PCM-M10P (Professional) model [Professional meaning simply bundled with windscreen] will be selling in November:
http://www.sony-asia.com/pressrelease/asset/345750/section/regionalpressreleases

It also states matte 'black' finish instead of gloss on the Consumer [non-P] version. The black description I always found confusing 'cause all models look grey to me, and they all looked matte.

Whoever did the image editing on that page may make the reader believe that the P version of the unit is larger, too.   ;)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on November 29, 2009, 08:40:37 PM

...if you join their web site they will send you 3 free swatches (no charge for postage even) samples 5 X 3 1/2 " plenty big enough to make a windscreen just get a short piece of elastic and you can make a cheap or free windscreen.

I plan to make a long-haired version of the Sony eventually, and I have some long fur sitting around here from previous experiments that I will use. It would be nice to get Sony's version also, for not too much additional cost - assuming they offer that. Even though their fur is short it's useful for light breezes (if the AD-PCM1 is any indication).

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Ozpeter on December 01, 2009, 05:10:14 PM
The "P" version appears to be coming to Australia, unlike the plain version - and no doubt they will be jacking up the price due to the colour change and windshield.  Might resort to eBay for the non-pro version at a sensible price.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on December 01, 2009, 06:09:38 PM
ozpeter,
Yeah I've actually been this close to ordering the non-P. I guess I was waiting to see if B&H will be offering the P version at a reasonable cost, much like they are bundling the PCM-D50 with the AD-PCM1 for a good price, all things considered. I'm starting to think it probably won't happen before Christmas, if at all.

I'm very tempted...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tardis71 on December 01, 2009, 10:00:45 PM
Whoooo! my M10 came today! I'm really looking forward to recording with this bad boy!
Just playing around with it...I don't think anyone should worry about the record dial moving while in a pocket or something. It's pretty stiff! (that's what she said) Normal brushing up against it doesn't move it at all. You really have to try and turn it to get any movement. I'm not worried at all.
 ;D
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: colargol on December 01, 2009, 10:07:36 PM
Hi!

Can anyone recommend any good micro-sd cards to go with this unit?
I have used sandisk Ultra II sd cards for the r09hr, but those don't seem to be available as micro sd...
Thanks!

-c
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Flashmd on December 01, 2009, 10:30:51 PM
To All,

Finally received the little rascal PCM-M10. Now this recorder is as practical as expected...small enough to avoid ripping my jean pocket as the D50 has nearly done. Don,t need to dress it up with a hat like my D50 to keep the slightest wind from wrecking a sound performance.

The internals are very flat and render a lower noise floor by an estimated 6db if not more, compared to the D50. And of course, all the other additional features lacking with it's older sibling.

Now sure there are a few things not welcome, but that maybe biased due to my being used to the D50. Such as the horizontal row of option switches. They are a bit close together... so one must be careful during selection. Something has to give somewhere in design, to keep the size down.

I could say more but like describing a new movie to a curious friend, best save some action seens for your own excitement, to enjoy.

I will add this one little detail not brought up much in these forums...it is much easier to remove memory card despite it's Micro specification, compared to the quirky placement on the D50. Okay nuff said...........Merry Xmas coming.

Gordon

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Flashmd on December 01, 2009, 10:45:15 PM
Hi!

Can anyone recommend any good micro-sd cards to go with this unit?
I have used sandisk Ultra II sd cards for the r09hr, but those don't seem to be available as micro sd...
Thanks!

-c

To concerned,

Just from my breif experience with M10 the last couple of days.. the SanDisk Micro SDHC Model SDSDQB-4096-AW11, purchased at Walmart, has performed well with no problems. I also borrowed my son's Sony 4GB Micor for his PSP...of course works fine too.

Gordon
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on December 03, 2009, 12:16:18 AM
I got a sandisc 8 gig from VIDEOGAMECIB.COM on ebay 20.00 works great.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on December 11, 2009, 01:20:32 PM
I have the hotness in my mitts.

I wanted to write so much, but I think I might spare you all for now (sort of). Needless to say, this is a FANTASTIC unit. Definitely one of the better ways to spend USD $300.

Already it's quite easy to just forget about picking up the PCM-D50 and going with this. I'm loving the more 'Walkman' feel a smaller unit gives more than anything else.

I love the Key Control feature for changing the key of your audio. Useful and fun. I love the Bass enhancement feature for getting more oomph from those tiny capsules people put in their ears. I love that they are aiming this device more at the hungry masses. Both Bass enhancement and Key Control can be heard in real-time simply by selecting the option you want in their menus while a track is playing, before having to commit to any changes. Nice.

It's as if the PCM-D1 / PCM-D50 got together with MiniDisc/HI-MD and some old-school Walkman. That's what it feels like to me. This means good.

Model selling in USA comes with NO CARRYING POUCH but comes with an AC Adaptor and carry strap (the online manual is slightly different to the printed manual). Languages you can choose from are also limited to English, Spanish and French with this model (again the printed manual is correct and different to the online manual).

Rec Remain time appears permanently on the main screen now without having to press DISPLAY to find it. Great enhancement!

Slightly more text can fit on the screen at one time on the PCM-M10. Little changes here and there. Detail Menu really reminds me of MD/Hi-MD more Advanced menu. A melting-pot of influences.

Ergonomics: great. Buttons under the LCD are hard to accidentally press. They are shaped well for thumbs (concave and angled). Delete key recessed, aiding usability in less-than-optimal conditions. Raised dots on Volume and MIC input locations. Good ergonomics. The unit itself is very easy to hold and handle one-handed. Remote is pretty basic but has a long cord and is only useful for recording / track marking, not playback. PCM-M10 turns on with the backlight on (and then turns off after 10 seconds by default), much like a mobile phone and unlike the PCM-D50 (which required you to press the LIGHT button when you wanted it and always powers-on without the light).

Recordings are good. Mics are good. Different, but good.
Right now my PCM-D50 and PCM-M10 are having a nice chat about life in China.

There are some comments about the (extremely) tacky silver paint on this unit (it isn't metal), but I might leave that for another day of whinging.

In the meantime I'll leave you with some of the thinking behind the development of the PCM-D1, ancestor to this fine PCM-M10:
http://www.sony.net/Fun/design/activity/product/pcm-d1_01.html

We mustn't forget where we came from.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: gearscout on December 13, 2009, 12:17:42 PM
Well, I was in Berlin for the anniversary of the Fall of the Wall and my PCM-D50 went missing.  It was the night of MTV's Euro Music Awards.  Just gone out of my bag.  The Sennheiser shotgun was still there.  I don't even care to think whether it was nicked or (gasp!) I dropped it silently to the floor somewhere in the little black soft pouch where I always stored it.

Now, I'm confronted with either replacing that one...or maybe shifting to the M10.  I already have the Zoom H2 and the Olympus LS-10.  I'm using the Olympus now for most of my work. 

I so LOVE the PCM-D50.  But from what I read on this thread, the M10 has some very attractive attributes of its own.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on December 13, 2009, 01:51:42 PM
Well, I was in Berlin for the anniversary of the Fall of the Wall and my PCM-D50 went missing.  It was the night of MTV's Euro Music Awards.  Just gone out of my bag.  The Sennheiser shotgun was still there.  I don't even care to think whether it was nicked or (gasp!) I dropped it silently to the floor somewhere in the little black soft pouch where I always stored it.

Now, I'm confronted with either replacing that one...or maybe shifting to the M10.  I already have the Zoom H2 and the Olympus LS-10.  I'm using the Olympus now for most of my work. 

I so LOVE the PCM-D50.  But from what I read on this thread, the M10 has some very attractive attributes of its own.
If you don't need digital in, I would go for the M10.

Much smaller and still great sound.  I also prefer the mics on the M10 to the D50.  They are omni, but the sound is much more natural, at least to me.  I wouldn't use built in mics for concert recording, but capturing acoustic music, street performers, interviews, or ambient sounds, they are quite good.  I've also experimented making a small baffle for the M10.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I love the power save mode of the sony.  You can leave them on all the time (in lock mode) and the batteries last forever.  If you need to be ready sooner, you can even leave in pause-record mode.  The batteries will hold that for 12hrs or more easily, so "full day" recording is quite convenient.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on December 14, 2009, 02:53:23 AM

I so LOVE the PCM-D50.  But from what I read on this thread, the M10 has some very attractive attributes of its own.

Sorry to hear about your PCM-D50 :(
By far, the build on the PCM-D50 is so much better than the PCM-M10. The PCM-M10 just has a metal face, the rest is plastic with a capital P. Not that I mind, but Sony should re-consider using silver paint to simulate metal on a device in its pro line-up (of all things). The whole perimeter of the device won't hold up to wear and tear gracefully. The POWER/HOLD switch and REC LEVEL knob are all-plastic coated in silver paint :(

To their credit, the knob has more useful ridges for more grip, but is smaller to offset the ease of that, somewhat - but still feels good and will be really difficult to accidentally move, as others have mentioned.

If we open the memory card door we can see the plastic underside is really grey. Would it have killed them to just leave it uncoated grey? Or offer plastic in any other colour (white, red, brown, green, blue, orange, whatever) except silver? I look at the PCM-D50's quality lustrous metal and then look at the PCM-M10 and can't help but being reminded of the cheapest toy. I don't mind plastic at all, but painting it silver... ugh. The size of the device is really welcome, though. Can't be stressed enough. In fact the main things for me are:

* dedicated FOLDER, MENU and DELETE buttons
* track-marking (far more flexible than mandatory slicing and dicing of files with DIVIDE. Divide can be performed on every track mark if you wish, too.
* size
* display showing recording time remaining permanently on the main screen (love it)
* Key Control (you can give your voice a sex change with this thing too, which is fun)
* Protect feature
* remote
* in-built speaker (tiny but does the job)
* bass enhancement is something that pretty much says "yes, go forth and use it as a Walkman, Joe Customer".

MiniDisc may not be dead, but this is the closest thing to killing it (recent price cuts pretty much tell me it may be the end of the road, too). The lack of drive mechanism and the rest must make devices like this a lot more lucrative to make, too (same can be said for their video cameras).

LCF and Limiter both work well. External mic, you get offered the choice of Plug-In Power or not. All familiar stuff. You will love the size of this unit.

Display
I prefer text display on the PCM-M10. For example, if "decision" is written on the display, on the PCM-D50 every letter is evenly-spaced regardless of letter width. One the PCM-M10, letters like "i" don't have huge gaps between them and other letters. It's more pleasing to read.

headphone output
The headphone output on this unit is noticeably less loud than the PCM-D50, but that only matters if you like to listen loud and/or are using high-impedance/low-sensitivity headphones. I prefer the meat in the PCM-D50 here, but the PCM-M10 is not bad by any means.

Sonically it's a very fine recorder! I'd have no problems substituting this unit for the PCM-D50 at all. But I do prefer the movable mics in the PCM-D50, though.

MP3, AAC
There are other small differences in-use, but they are mostly minor interface things I won't mention. I don't record in MP3 but that's new. An AAC file I tried in it didn't work (they say not all encoders are supported, but this AAC file worked fine in the PSP...). Anyway, those are some things people will find useful but they are essentially nice bonuses to me, not much else.

The main points to take home versus the PCM-D50:
* build quality nothing like it (The PCM-D50 is so well-built, it would be hard to match many devices against it. I regard it as nothing less than a Sony classic)
* sounds great
* faux silver
* no optical digital in or out
* small (extremely good)
* MicroSD (!)
* useful remote for recording

Sony simply deserve the business this round. Thank god the competition made them move their butts (finally) to offer something like this. They deserve to be rewarded and I hope they sell bucketloads - but I hope the tacky silver paint stays on.

I would hate to be their competition selling at this price point (or indeed MiniDisc)





Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: JasonSobel on December 14, 2009, 07:30:21 AM
Would it have killed them to just leave it uncoated grey? Or offer plastic in any other colour (white, red, brown, green, blue, orange, whatever) except silver?

they also sell it in red, if the silver plastic doesn't quite do it for you:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FR/ (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FR/)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: pool on December 14, 2009, 05:36:24 PM
Can I ask:
Does the Sony PCM-M10 record in 16 bit?
Does it accept rechargables?
What is linear Linear PCM. I owned an R-09. It linear PCM the same as wavs for windows??
When it splits tracks it the transition seemless like the r-09 and unlike the Microtrack?

thanks
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - vs. Sony PCM-D50
Post by: gearscout on December 14, 2009, 07:22:42 PM
Tekdroid,

Thank you, Thank YOU!  Very nice summary of some of the main differences between the units.  I appreciate that you took quite a bit of time to list them.

I admit, I'm torn between the smaller M10 and just buying a replacement for the D50.  Since I already have the Olympus LS-10, I have a lightweight, small recorder.  But the dedicated Folder button and other options you point out make some strong points for the M10.

Again, many thanks to you and others for your thoughtful comments.  It will make my decision easier.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on December 15, 2009, 12:53:24 PM
Can I ask:
Does the Sony PCM-M10 record in 16 bit?
Does it accept rechargables?
What is linear Linear PCM. I owned an R-09. It linear PCM the same as wavs for windows??
When it splits tracks it the transition seemless like the r-09 and unlike the Microtrack?

thanks

Yes to all of the above, plus it records as high as 24/96 as well as 16 bit.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Test123 on December 15, 2009, 03:13:40 PM
I have a question about the M10. If I transfer a recording to a computer does the track marks appear as well?

I am looking for a replacement for MD. One of my clients records football games on MD. When a big play happens he pushes the track mark button. After the game he takes the disk and goes to each mark, rewinds a little and re-records the highlight using Adobe Audition. It would be great to take the whole game file, open it in Audition and be able to see the marks.

We purchased a Marantz PMD-661 which does allow you to see the marks but only using their PDM Mark Editor software which is not really an editor...

Thanks...

t123
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on December 15, 2009, 03:28:59 PM
I have a question about the M10. If I transfer a recording to a computer does the track marks appear as well?

Yes-someone previously posted that they would show up in your audio editor and I just double checked. They show up as cue markers in Audition 3.0.

It's a great recorder. You should get one. I love Hi-MD but with this you don't need Sonic Stage(!), battery life is phenominal, and with a $40 16 GB Micro-SD card, you can have 20 GB of memory. Don't worry about losing the card. Just leave it in the machine and use the machine as the card reader. Built in mics are outstanding too, if you ever have occasion to need them.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: pool on December 16, 2009, 01:09:40 AM
I will require stealth without external mics or preamp because i will be taping in close settings, unamplified music. I heard samples of the d50 on dime and it sounded very clean to me. (check out Craig Wedren torrent) but i havent come across ones with the m10 yet to compare preamp noise.

To my ears if the samples here
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#avoid
were recorded as they should be, with the M10 it is has now become acceptable (pre-amp wise) to tape quite performances with internal mics.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on December 16, 2009, 01:33:43 AM
they also sell it in red, if the silver plastic doesn't quite do it for you:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FR/ (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FR/)

Right (and white is also available - or will be - in other territories), but what I'm talking about is the sides of the device, not the front or back. Tacky silver-coated plastic. I admit I am far more sensitive to this than the Average User, but I really can't stand the whole metal-on-plastic aesthetic - for both cosmetic (cheap-toy-look) and practical considerations (wear and tear).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on December 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AM
To my ears if the samples here
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#avoid
were recorded as they should be, with the M10 it is has now become acceptable (pre-amp wise) to tape quite performances with internal mics.

IMO that test is pretty worthless for picking a recorder that would make good recordings with its internal mics, except for ruling out truly bad internal mics like the FR2-LE. However the M10 does have very quiet internal mics which also make very realistic recordings of acoustic music. Someone posted a sample of themselves playing piano and it sounded phenomenal.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Artstar on December 20, 2009, 02:19:14 AM
Can't wait for mine to arrive. Ordered it earlier this week from Musician's Friend along with some drum hardware too and got a 16GB Sandisk Ultra microSDHC card for it. My PCM-D50 is here on backup but I have the feeling that once I get the M10, the D50 will be up for sale on eBay. I just don't need anything that big if the M10 really does perform as well as the D50 does.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on December 20, 2009, 08:36:40 AM
Just checked B&H and it looks like they are bundling the Sony LCPCMM10G carry case with the PCM-M10 now. Bah, I just missed out on this.

The case looks interesting. Would like to see some user pics.
Title: Watch Out Removing the Micro SDHC card
Post by: fmaderjr on December 22, 2009, 10:05:31 AM
I was planning to leave my 16 gig card in the machine permanently, but I needed to remove it so I could use the machine as a card reader. Wanting the card to pop out as far as possible for easy gripping, I pushed the card back into the machine as far as I could and quickly removed my finger. To my shock, the card shot 3 feet in the air and flew across my desk. I was equally shocked that I found it immediately. Could easily have lost it. Removing cards from other machines with this technique always worked fine. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: mloewen on December 22, 2009, 07:38:47 PM
I bought a card reader for my sdhc for around 99 cents on ebay (postage included) and I love it. Its so small and I can use it as a flash drive to transfer info.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: unclelouie on December 22, 2009, 08:18:11 PM
I was planning to leave my 16 gig card in the machine permanently, but I needed to remove it so I could use the machine as a card reader. Wanting the card to pop out as far as possible for easy gripping, I pushed the card back into the machine as far as I could and quickly removed my finger. To my shock, the card shot 3 feet in the air and flew across my desk. I was equally shocked that I found it immediately. Could easily have lost it. Removing cards from other machines with this technique always worked fine. 

Flying MicroSD cards! Although that's been my biggest concern about this device, I suppose it's a non-issue with built-in USB.
Title: Re: Watch Out Removing the Micro SDHC card
Post by: xpander on December 23, 2009, 08:23:16 AM
Wanting the card to pop out as far as possible for easy gripping, I pushed the card back into the machine as far as I could and quickly removed my finger. To my shock, the card shot 3 feet in the air and flew across my desk. I was equally shocked that I found it immediately. Could easily have lost it. Removing cards from other machines with this technique always worked fine.

I wish the same would work with my PCM-D50, but unfortunately it ain't. No matter how far I push the card and how fast I release my finger from it, the card will not come out enough for me to get a proper grip of it. Instead, I have to use pliers every time to get the card out. It seems they kinda compensated that on M10!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: aaronji on December 28, 2009, 06:51:05 PM
Everyone has been saying that the PCM-M10 has amazing battery life…Well, I would say that is the understatement of the year!  I ran mics > BB > recorder at 16/44.1 with an 8 GB microSD and the cross-memory recording function on.  The thing kept on running until the memory was full…Almost 19 hours (18h46m).  And that was with the backlight (and LEDs) on continuously*…

I should mention that these are the batteries that came packaged with the recorder, and that I had used them for about an hour prior to my test.  After the 19 hour run, the battery indicator was still reading half, although it dropped to ¼  after transferring the files, re-formatting both the internal and external memories, and making another 15 minute test recording. 

The transfer speeds were a little slow (16m15s to transfer the 1.99 GB and 1.7 GB files from the internal memory and 28m for the 3 x 1.99 GB and 1.38 GB files from the microSD), but a card reader copied the data from the microSD much more quickly.

Also, the split that occurs switching from one memory source to the other with cross-memory recording appears seamless, from both listening to the merged file and examining the wav.  Incidentally, the recorder treats the two memory sources independently with respect to naming files.  This might give rise to two files with the same name… 

*Not sure how much difference the backlight makes, but Sony says in the manual “When you select “Always-ON,” the batteries will be consumed quickly. When you use the PCM recorder with batteries, we recommend you select other options than “Always-ON.”
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: kfrinkle on December 28, 2009, 08:44:52 PM
I jumped in and bought one of these on that B&H Photo sale... Can't wait to get it and test it out!  I am getting tired of the poor MT battery life issues, and this is the first big purchase I have made in over a year...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: Napo on December 29, 2009, 11:35:13 AM
Hi, there;

has any of you used the limiter function? I tried to record a theater drama and the voice of the actors were recorded too low and the music in between too loud.

Another question: can the limiter function be used together wit Low Cut Filter ( in the backrow someone was wisphering all the time!

So far my PCM-M10 audio recorder has been a piece of cake and I ma having fun to learn how to audio edit/mix my recordings with the SoundForfe soft included in the package.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on December 29, 2009, 02:29:26 PM
has any of you used the limiter function?

Manual says limiter prevents audible distortion if you don't go over 0 dB by more than 12 dB. I don't know about 12 dB but I made a quick test with my voice and it did prevent audible distortion and sounded OK as long as you weren't going over by a good bit. I suggest testing it on your home stereo.

I'm going to leave the limiter on, since it appears to help in some cases. Since I will try to set levels so that it shouldn't kick in at all, what's the harm in having it turned on? If I screw up and go over, it may help. However if you set your levels real high to try to compress your recordings (making the music not as much louder than the dialog), it's a sure bet to sound awful. You shouldn't try to use a limiter for this-you have to take care of this in post even though it could be a lot of work. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: CatScan on January 01, 2010, 08:26:26 PM
Happy New Year!  :D
I'm new to this forum after having found it a few days ago when searching for an effective way to transfer "legacy" recordings (non Hi-MD) over to my computer rather than the time-wasting and quality degrading way of re-recording its ouput in realtime on the computer (or to pay $$$ for a new Sony MZ-RH1 Hi-MD recorder which will allow for digital transfers via Sony's SonicStage software).

I need something that just works instead of limiting my creativity, so a solid state recorder seems to be the thing for me, and so far the PCM-M10 seems to be the one to go for.
I'll be using it to record environmental/nature sounds, speech (interviews, lectures, my baby's first words etc.) for the most part.

I do however have some questions which I didn't find answers to earlier in the thread:

1) Voice activated recording:
The 5 second pre-record memory buffer will be most welcome for a variety of situations (like waiting for my kid to say something), but does the recorder also have a voice activated recording feature? That would fully "automate" a situation like that. I know that some other recorders have this function (Zoom H2 and H4n as far as I can remember), but none that have both.

2) Memory card types:
Why are people complaining about the use of Memory Stick Micro (M2) and Micro SD cards?
Are they inferior and unreliable compared to other types of memory cards, or is it just because people are afraid of losing them because of their minute size?
Since you can choose between two card types with the PCM-M10, should I go for a Memory Stick Micro or a Micro SD card?

3) Data transfer speed:
I read somewhere that transferring recordings to a computer takes ages. Is this true? Remember, audio transfers is what prompted me to put MiniDisc recorders behind me.
I was hoping a solid state audio recorder would be something like a digital camera (where transfers are really quick).
Does it make a difference (speed-wise) if I connect the PCM-M10 to the computer via USB or put its memory card into a USB 2.0 card-reader?

4) Firmware:
Is it possible to upgrade its firmware, in case Sony comes up with improvements or new features?
I see others have asked about this before, but nothing other than estimated guesses came up as replies.

5) Macintosh support:
I've been burnt by this in the past; Sony, as a manufacturer of PCs running Windows, haven't done much to support Mac users (more so to keep us away). The PCM-M10 is said to work with Macs as well as PCs, and I suppose that's just because the recorder happens to act as a "mass storage" unit via USB, right?
Will I run into any unpleasant (or pleasant!) surprises being a Mac user?
By the way, does it come with any Mac software at all? Sound Forge which is supplied with it certainly won't work on Macs.

6) "Pro" and "consumer" versions:
I read about the "pro" version (PCM-H10P) (http://www.sony-asia.com/pressrelease/asset/345750/section/regionalpressreleases) earlier in the thread and elsewhere, but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere. I did notice that it says "regional press release", being Asia/Pacific, so perhaps it's not a worldwide thing.
Anyway, a matt black recorder (pro) is much more desirable than the glossy black (consumer) version. Does anyone know if they've done anything about the painted silver on its sides which several people have complained about here, making it look "cheap"? Does the "pro" version come like that as well? And what about the price difference and availability?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on January 01, 2010, 08:43:51 PM
1) Voice activated recording:
The 5 second pre-record memory buffer will be most welcome for a variety of situations (like waiting for my kid to say something), but does the recorder also have a voice activated recording feature? That would fully "automate" a situation like that. I know that some other recorders have this function (Zoom H2 and H4n as far as I can remember), but none that have both.

As far as I know, there isn't a voice activated recording function. However, an 8GB card will give you 8 hours of recording time at 24bits and 44.1k, so you could just leave it recording all the time.

2) Memory card types:
Why are people complaining about the use of Memory Stick Micro (M2) and Micro SD cards?
Are they inferior and unreliable compared to other types of memory cards, or is it just because people are afraid of losing them because of their minute size?
Since you can choose between two card types with the PCM-M10, should I go for a Memory Stick Micro or a Micro SD card?

Historically, Sony's Memory Stick products have been much more expensive than competing technologies. Many people have cameras that use SD cards, so it would have been nice if Sony went with SD instead of MicroSD. I bought an 8 GB MicroSDHC card and haven't had any trouble.

3) Data transfer speed:
I read somewhere that transferring recordings to a computer takes ages. Is this true? Remember, audio transfers is what prompted me to put MiniDisc recorders behind me.
I was hoping a solid state audio recorder would be something like a digital camera (where transfers are really quick).
Does it make a difference (speed-wise) if I connect the PCM-M10 to the computer via USB or put its memory card into a USB 2.0 card-reader?

It is an exaggeration to say that USB transfers take ages. I find that transfers are noticeably faster when using a fast memory card adapter, but USB transfers aren't all that bad.

4) Firmware:
Is it possible to upgrade its firmware, in case Sony comes up with improvements or new features?
I see others have asked about this before, but nothing other than estimated guesses came up as replies.

Unknown.

5) Macintosh support:
I've been burnt by this in the past; Sony, as a manufacturer of PCs running Windows, haven't done much to support Mac users (more so to keep us away). The PCM-M10 is said to work with Macs as well as PCs, and I suppose that's just because the recorder happens to act as a "mass storage" unit via USB, right?
Will I run into any unpleasant (or pleasant!) surprises being a Mac user?
By the way, does it come with any Mac software at all? Sound Forge which is supplied with it certainly won't work on Macs.

I use my M10 with a mac. The M10 shows up as a mass storage device, exactly as you'd expect. The only issue I've run into is that Logic, SoundTrack Pro and Audacity all fail to see the track markers.

6) "Pro" and "consumer" versions:
I read about the "pro" version (PCM-H10P) (http://www.sony-asia.com/pressrelease/asset/345750/section/regionalpressreleases) earlier in the thread and elsewhere, but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere. I did notice that it says "regional press release", being Asia/Pacific, so perhaps it's not a worldwide thing.
Anyway, a matt black recorder (pro) is much more desirable than the glossy black (consumer) version. Does anyone know if they've done anything about the painted silver on its sides which several people have complained about here, making it look "cheap"? Does the "pro" version come like that as well? And what about the price difference and availability?

I suspect the only difference is the paint and the wind screen. I've got the glossy dark red M10, and no one seems to pay any attention to it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on January 02, 2010, 03:28:45 AM
I think people are afraid of losing the memory cards. If you buy a big one and leave it in the machine permanently, that wouldn't be a problem.

I almost lost mine:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1717762#msg1717762

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: CatScan on January 02, 2010, 09:34:06 PM
1) Voice activated recording:
The 5 second pre-record memory buffer will be most welcome for a variety of situations (like waiting for my kid to say something), but does the recorder also have a voice activated recording feature? That would fully "automate" a situation like that. I know that some other recorders have this function (Zoom H2 and H4n as far as I can remember), but none that have both.

As far as I know, there isn't a voice activated recording function. However, an 8GB card will give you 8 hours of recording time at 24bits and 44.1k, so you could just leave it recording all the time.

Are there any recorders out there with both these features?

5) Macintosh support:

I use my M10 with a mac. The M10 shows up as a mass storage device, exactly as you'd expect. The only issue I've run into is that Logic, SoundTrack Pro and Audacity all fail to see the track markers.

That's disappointing, because track markers would, for me, be very useful.
Any Mac audio editing software which does support this? I assume it's fully supported in the Windows software that comes with the recorder though  :P
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: jamesmcn on January 03, 2010, 12:56:05 AM
That's disappointing, because track markers would, for me, be very useful.
Any Mac audio editing software which does support this? I assume it's fully supported in the Windows software that comes with the recorder though  :P

I usually just split the files in the M10 before transferring them. The naming scheme of the split files makes it easy to distinguish between components of an original take and other takes.

It must be possible to extract the markers out of the WAV file, I just don't know how to do it yet. (I haven't tried very hard)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: aaronji on January 03, 2010, 07:13:12 PM
Anyway, a matt black recorder (pro) is much more desirable than the glossy black (consumer) version. Does anyone know if they've done anything about the painted silver on its sides which several people have complained about here, making it look "cheap"? Does the "pro" version come like that as well? And what about the price difference and availability?

I think it was really only one person commenting on the silver...It might not be optimal, but it isn't a real concern either, in my opinion.  Sony had to cut some corners to hit the price range they were targeting...

As far as the matte/gloss thing goes, in Europe it seems the readily available version (without wind screen) is matte black.  Actually, I wouldn't really call it black, for that matter.  More of a dark grey.

3) Data transfer speed:
I read somewhere that transferring recordings to a computer takes ages. Is this true? Remember, audio transfers is what prompted me to put MiniDisc recorders behind me.
I was hoping a solid state audio recorder would be something like a digital camera (where transfers are really quick).
Does it make a difference (speed-wise) if I connect the PCM-M10 to the computer via USB or put its memory card into a USB 2.0 card-reader?

It is an exaggeration to say that USB transfers take ages. I find that transfers are noticeably faster when using a fast memory card adapter, but USB transfers aren't all that bad.

"Ages" might be an exaggeration, but it definitely isn't speedy.  As I mentioned a few posts back, it took me 28 minutes to transfer the data from a full 8 GB card.  Using a reader (actually, microSD > SD adapter > card reader), it only took 6m35s to transfer the same fileset...I usually only have a gig or two to move at a time, so the transfer rate isn't that much of a factor, but the USB speed is pretty slow.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on January 03, 2010, 08:18:55 PM
It must be possible to extract the markers out of the WAV file, I just don't know how to do it yet. (I haven't tried very hard)

Adobe Audition sees them and I assumed a number of other windows editing programs do also.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: CatScan on January 04, 2010, 05:03:10 AM
Adobe Audition sees them and I assumed a number of other windows editing programs do also.

Yes, but as you say it's a Windows application and therefore won't work on my Mac  :(
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on January 06, 2010, 01:05:17 AM
1) Voice activated recording:
The 5 second pre-record memory buffer will be most welcome for a variety of situations (like waiting for my kid to say something), but does the recorder also have a voice activated recording feature?
No it doesn't.

Since you can choose between two card types with the PCM-M10, should I go for a Memory Stick Micro or a Micro SD card?
I went with  MicroSD 'cause they're cheaper (and can easily be converted to the ubiquitous SD card with a simple adaptor if you want to re-purpose the card in a camera or whatever). Up to you, though. I'd imagine both would be identical as far as operation of the recorder is concerned (though I suppose you can get different cards in different speed grades which may make some minor difference with the speed of copying files over to/from computer).

3) Data transfer speed:
I read somewhere that transferring recordings to a computer takes ages. Is this true? Remember, audio transfers is what prompted me to put MiniDisc recorders behind me.
I was hoping a solid state audio recorder would be something like a digital camera (where transfers are really quick).
Your expectations are right.

Does it make a difference (speed-wise) if I connect the PCM-M10 to the computer via USB or put its memory card into a USB 2.0 card-reader?
Depends on the reader, I guess. But I think it would be minimal. Put it this way, it's very easy to forget MiniDisc and SonicStage after handling the PCM-M10 (at least as far as getting content on the computer easily and quickly). MiniDisc still has some nice things I would like to see in solid-state recorders, but for recording itself, you may end up thinking "What's a MiniDisc?" after using one of these.

4) Firmware:
Is it possible to upgrade its firmware, in case Sony comes up with improvements or new features?
I see others have asked about this before, but nothing other than estimated guesses came up as replies.
I doubt this would be possible (for the user), but you never know. Sony hasn't allowed any of their pro recorders to be user-upgradeable, as far as I am aware.

The PCM-M10 is said to work with Macs as well as PCs, and I suppose that's just because the recorder happens to act as a "mass storage" unit via USB, right?
Correct.

Will I run into any unpleasant (or pleasant!) surprises being a Mac user?
Not sure.

6) "Pro" and "consumer" versions:
Does anyone know if they've done anything about the painted silver on its sides which several people have complained about here, making it look "cheap"? Does the "pro" version come like that as well? And what about the price difference and availability?

*puts up hand at being one to complain about the silver paint*
The device itself is built solid, so don't get me wrong. Face of the unit is metal. Back and sides are all-plastic but it feels solid, not like it's about to fall apart or anything.

As a professional (or semi-pro) device, the market here doesn't need to be wowed with a faux silver finish, I reckon. Bumps and knocks and scratches tend to be far more evident on coated plastics. Then again I think they can also do without the bundled disposable batteries for the intended market, but those are just my thoughts, nothing more. They should have simply stuck with uncoated plastic for a pro device. Silver coatings are for kids toys (if that).

For me to be pretty vocal about this suggests that the main ingredients are indeed pretty darn good (and they are).

Some mysteries remain (like why Sony call a GREY unit a BLACK unit) but apart from that, things are excellent and I welcome Sony back to sanity with open arms. It is pretty much the recorder I dreamed about owning when I got my first MiniDisc unit in the nineties. I wanted no mechanical noise, uncompressed audio, heaps of storage, great battery life, good display with back-light and a pretty compact size. It took way too long but I welcome Sony back with enthusiasm and look forward to offerings in coming years.

*smaller size
*pocketable recording remotes that also do playback well
*instant start-up time

are the next logical progressions they should make, I reckon.

Smaller size. I want half the current size. It should be do-able, even if the battery life suffers a bit.

Instant start-up. Waiting 8 seconds or so for the recorder to initialise seems like it can really be improved, I reckon. Especially when you look at the advanced buffers DSLRs use. Instant or near-instant start-up would be great to catch those unexpected moments when the recorder is OFF.

Pocketable remotes. Think MiniDisc, except with a nice REC button (which most didn't have) and detachable short and long cables. I want to use the device as a killer playback AND recording device without compromise. Those flat card remotes...man, I just can't express too much love for them...

Those are my thoughts for the future.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on January 06, 2010, 06:44:18 AM

*smaller size
*pocketable recording remotes that also do playback well
*instant start-up time
are the next logical progressions they should make, I reckon.

Smaller size. I want half the current size. It should be do-able, even if the battery life suffers a bit.

Instant start-up. Waiting 8 seconds or so for the recorder to initialise seems like it can really be improved, I reckon. Especially when you look at the advanced buffers DSLRs use. Instant or near-instant start-up would be great to catch those unexpected moments when the recorder is OFF.

Pocketable remotes. Think MiniDisc, except with a nice REC button (which most didn't have) and detachable short and long cables. I want to use the device as a killer playback AND recording device without compromise. Those flat card remotes...man, I just can't express too much love for them...

Those are my thoughts for the future.

I agree with you it's a great machine, but I don't need any of these things.

I wouldn't even want it half the size-might make the button layout cramped and hard to operate. Any recorder that is light in weight & slips easily into a shirt pocket is small enough for me. If it were half the size you might be forced to rely on the remote and I don't really care for remotes for recording functions myself (and if I did want one, it would have to show your levels and be able to adjust levels-not just start the recording). Since I only use the M10 to record bands, I don't need instant start up either. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: page on January 06, 2010, 10:09:12 AM
It must be possible to extract the markers out of the WAV file, I just don't know how to do it yet. (I haven't tried very hard)

Adobe Audition sees them and I assumed a number of other windows editing programs do also.

You're looking for editors that will read the meta-data (sometimes referred to as iXML) which is where the cue markers are stored. On the mac, I think Wave Editor by Audiofile Engineering is one such editor that will, enabling the software to get them to show up is something that eludes me (but I normally use audacity and track everything in post).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: kfrinkle on January 06, 2010, 10:12:24 AM
Got my M10 yesterday, took it out of it package and looked at it for a bit, looks like a really nice piece of equipment.  I just don't have any shows coming up to test it with.....  I am going to try to tape some on campus concerts with the built in mics, see how it does.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: blackmikito on January 06, 2010, 02:00:11 PM
Thanks to everyone who has posted info on the M10.

So far, based on what I've read, the major differences between the M10 and the R-09HR are that:

1. The M10 has much longer life on battery power.
2. The level control on the M10 is still moveable after the "Hold" feature is activated. Whereas on the R-09HR this feature is de-activated when that unit is placed on "Hold".
3. The M10, like other Sony products, will not be eligible for firmware updates. Whereas the R-09HR is.
4. Design-wise, users are complimenting the size of the unit (a hair slimmer than the R-09HR), however there are some complaints regarding the layout of the unit and that the buttons on the front panel are not as distinct as they could be. i.e. The buttons are all the same size and shape, and are in a cluster on the front. So trying to accurately use them in a dark setting will be problematic without having spent a lot of time memorizing which button does what. Whereas the front panel of the R-09HR has a central "Record" button, and the other buttons around it are distinct in shape.

There are other differences I'm sure, but those were the main ones that stuck out to me. Ultimately, I think that any new product that comes out should be superior to what's currently out there. Otherwise, it's a step to the side, or it's a step down. I think the noted differences thus far suggest that the Sony M10 has not outdone the R-09HR.  Line-in noise tests remain to be seen. But, the likelihood is that the M10 isn't "dead quiet" either, and that the overall specs of the unit are going to be about the same (or in the same ballpark) as the R-09HR.

Sure, the battery life is impressive on the M10. But the battery life is perfectly fine on the R-09HR. It is the rare taper who goes all out and does a 8-hour marathon in one sitting. And even if you're going to be taping an all-day festival, chances are you'll be using an open/larger rig, probably with a different recorder, and taking breaks. And how hard is it to roll with extra batteries anyway?

I think that the M10 as described so far is an alternative recorder, but not really an upgrade to what's currently out there. Ultimately, the lack of firmware updates, the moveable input level when on Hold, and the orientation of the buttons on the front are enough to make me stick with the R-09HR. 

NAMM is right around the corner, so who knows what might be coming out.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on January 06, 2010, 02:27:10 PM
I think that the M10 as described so far is an alternative recorder, but not really an upgrade to what's currently out there. Ultimately, the lack of firmware updates, the moveable input level when on Hold, and the orientation of the buttons on the front are enough to make me stick with the R-09HR. 

I agree the recorder is an alternative and not an upgrade, but I don't think anyone claimed otherwise. If you already have an HR and like it, there's no need to sell it and get the Sony. But if you're trying to decide which of the 2 to buy, both have a lot to offer.

However:
1) How often do some of us have to write that the movable record level when on hold is not a disadvantage. It is NOT going to move by accident. I think it a plus, not a minus.
2) Did anyone have a problem the the D50 not having firmware upgrades? Sony design their products so they work optimally right off the bat.
3) You don't usually have to rely on feel to start a recorder-there's usually some light. If you want to start it while it's in your pocket, put a couple bits of gaffers tape in appropriate spots to help you find the key recording buttons.
4) The M10 has a 5 second record buffer which the HR does not have.


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: CatScan on January 06, 2010, 04:56:24 PM
That's great news as Wave editor (http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/waveeditor/) is actually an audio editor I've been considering buying.

Regarding the start-up delay of the PCM-M10 (and all other solid-state recorders as far as I know): what's the reason for this? This could be a problem, but maybe there's a sleep mode which will allow it to quickly wake up, or maybe (with the excellent battery life) I could just leave it on even when I strictly don't need to, but "just in case".
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: blackmikito on January 06, 2010, 05:11:38 PM
I think that the M10 as described so far is an alternative recorder, but not really an upgrade to what's currently out there. Ultimately, the lack of firmware updates, the moveable input level when on Hold, and the orientation of the buttons on the front are enough to make me stick with the R-09HR. 

I agree the recorder is an alternative and not an upgrade, but I don't think anyone claimed otherwise. If you already have an HR and like it, there's no need to sell it and get the Sony. But if you're trying to decide which of the 2 to buy, both have a lot to offer.

However:
1) How often do some of us have to write that the movable record level when on hold is not a disadvantage. It is NOT going to move by accident. I think it a plus, not a minus.
2) Did anyone have a problem the the D50 not having firmware upgrades? Sony design their products so they work optimally right off the bat.
3) You don't usually have to rely on feel to start a recorder-there's usually some light. If you want to start it while it's in your pocket, put a couple bits of gaffers tape in appropriate spots to help you find the key recording buttons.
4) The M10 has a 5 second record buffer which the HR does not have.

Good points. However, I do think that when gadgets like these come out, that it actually is a matter of deciding how they stack up against what is currently out there, and then figuring out if something truly is "better". Because, if they're not "better", then the alternatives tend to be pointless and not worth risking the $$$ on. If for no other reason than the fact that they don't have the proven track record that the unit already out there does.

If I was in the market for a new recorder, I think that the M10 falls short of a standard set by units like the R-09HR. The only true advantages I've heard so far are that the internal mics in the M10 might be quieter (but still noisy), and that the battery life is exceptional. Neither of those things matter to most, I think.

But it's the design differences that I think make the M10 less desirable. Not everyone tapes in the same conditions, so the more flexibility and intuitive design a unit has the better. Rather than make buttons that stand out, in different shapes, they made them pretty much all the same, and in a cluster. That's a drawback.  You could be hitting Record, or you could be hitting Stop.  There is no learning curve with the layout of the R-09HR. Once levels are set, you could operate that thing blindfolded.

And there is a difference between a volume level that "won't move" and one that "can't move", when the "Hold" button is engaged. Everyone has been at shows where there's been pushing or tight crowds involved, or where there isn't a lot of light. And regardless of how one packs their bag, or stores their recorder, things can get in the way and move things around. Sure, you can fix it down with tape, but that becomes an unnecessary workaround, especially when there is a comparable recorder already out there that doesn't need tape to achieve the same results. If there is a "Hold" function on a machine, then it should freeze everything. If it doesn't, then what was the point of having a "Hold" button on there in the first place?

As for the 5-second buffer, the press out there states that this is useful so that you don't accidentally miss a moment or two before you officially start recording. I'm not clear on how this works or why it would truly be useful. Is the buffer automatically engaged when the unit is turned on? Or do you have to engage a "pre-record" mode (i.e. like the Sony DAT portables) where you are first hitting record, and then hitting Play? What about the levels? If you have to pre-engage the pre-record function, then what makes that any different than having just hit Record as soon as you turn the unit on? Without time travel, you're always going to miss the sounds that occurred before you thought to pick up and turn on your recorder. And memory cards have huge storage capacity these days, so there's no longer the need to "conserve tape" anymore, waiting just before the lights go down before hitting record, so that you have enough room to get the whole show. With as big as memory cards have gotten, you can pretty much just turn the recorder on as soon as you leave your car (even your house, for that matter), and then keep it on as you enter the venue if you wanted to.

I know it's nit-picking to a significant degree. But it's the same process that has been ongoing since the R-1 and the Microtrack came out a few years ago. Each year brings a new set of recorders, each with slightly different features. Recorders are no longer the huge expense that they were back in the days of DAT, but $300 is still a chunk of change to be casually spending, so the more info we can share with each other the better.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on January 06, 2010, 05:29:26 PM
Regarding the start-up delay of the PCM-M10 (and all other solid-state recorders as far as I know): what's the reason for this?

Don't know but I know it reads both the internal and external memory on the PCM-D50 and PCM-M10 when starting up.

I'd love for them to throw out the internal memory and spend that money on ram buffers and optimising start-up with just the one card (if they had to keep costs their manufacturing costs the same or similar).

Internal Flash memory does allow for second copies of content in the unit on the PCM-M10 (which is good and well) but I'd much prefer it not to be there for faster start-up. Or simply having two removable slots for the same features (very do-able in 2010 since the memory card slots are so small). It amazes me we accept slow start-up for these audio recorders but don't for digital cameras (even budget ones are ready to snap away furiously very soon after start-up).

This could be a problem, but maybe there's a sleep mode which will allow it to quickly wake up, or maybe (with the excellent battery life) I could just leave it on even when I strictly don't need to, but "just in case".

Both are possible. It still would be great to be spoiled by "instant record" after pressing the REC button twice or holding it down for half a second or so, straight from the OFF state.

The way I see it, we don't have to rely on the constraints of mechanicals with these devices, so they should be faster (& most digital cameras have to focus yet are pretty fast, but these recorders don't and are pretty slow).

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: CatScan on January 06, 2010, 05:42:14 PM
Great to hear about the sleep mode.
I'll be recording my baby daughter which means long sections without anything (or anything interesting) then all of a sudden something I must have. I guess I could just turn the unit on then, put the PCM-M10 in the crib, put it (the recorder that is) to sleep, and when something interesting pops up I have 5 seconds to react in order to press the rec (or pause?) button. Almost as good as voice activated recording together with that 5 second pre-recording buffer.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: fmaderjr on January 06, 2010, 06:49:21 PM
blackmikito-

All your points are good ones. On second thought, I guess the 5 second buffer isn't with much because you may as well just start recording early, given battery life and cheap media cards.

I do think the internal mic is excellent and it is very quiet, but I probably won't wind up using it much.

There are reports that the M10's line in may not be a quiet as we hoped, so if I was recording a lot of quiet stuff, I'd definitely go the the HR for sure until more samples come out.

I like the M10's display much better and the fact that the mic and line in jacks are on the top instead of the side.

I bought the M10 first, then was able to buy a mint condition HR (w/ no accessories but the wall wart) for $115 on E-Bay (Buy It Now). I must admit that I'll be using the HR for critical recordings and have sold my Korg MR-1. I Like the M10 a lot though.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: taperwheeler on January 07, 2010, 03:49:55 PM
"And there is a difference between a volume level that "won't move" and one that "can't move", when the "Hold" button is engaged. Everyone has been at shows where there's been pushing or tight crowds involved, or where there isn't a lot of light. And regardless of how one packs their bag, or stores their recorder, things can get in the way and move things around. Sure, you can fix it down with tape, but that becomes an unnecessary workaround, especially when there is a comparable recorder already out there that doesn't need tape to achieve the same results. If there is a "Hold" function on a machine, then it should freeze everything. If it doesn't, then what was the point of having a "Hold" button on there in the first place? "

I think it's great to be able to 'hold' or lock my unit in record mode but have some flexibility in increasing volume if needed.  To each his own...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: blackmikito on January 07, 2010, 04:46:22 PM
I think it's great to be able to 'hold' or lock my unit in record mode but have some flexibility in increasing volume if needed.  To each his own...

I agree, it's completely up to preference. What might not work for me, could work for someone else great. But, with the feature as it is, I don't think it is so much a question of the unit having extra flexibility, so much as it is an issue of the design denying the user from having the option to fully lock the unit. The unit is either on "Hold" or it isn't. If they had made the unit with a "two stage" hold, where one stage freezes everything except the input level knob, and then a second stage that freezes everything + the input level knob, then that would make sense. 

Having a "halfway" hold is like having no hold at all, imo. Because if one can say "it's unlikely that you'll accidentally move the input knob when the unit's on hold", then why not just also assume that you won't be accidentally hitting "Stop" when recording without the unit on Hold?

There is also the issue of running a preamp in front of the M10. If the unit can't fully Hold, then you have to worry about the levels on your pre, as well as the levels on the recorder. If the M10 had a full Hold, then you can just worry about the levels on the pre, and stash the recorder away in full confidence.

In the rare instance that I've had to turn levels up/down mid-show, I've never had a problem de-activating Hold, correcting levels, and then re-engaging Hold.   




Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: aaronji on January 07, 2010, 06:56:56 PM
I think it's great to be able to 'hold' or lock my unit in record mode but have some flexibility in increasing volume if needed.  To each his own...

I agree, it's completely up to preference. What might not work for me, could work for someone else great. But, with the feature as it is, I don't think it is so much a question of the unit having extra flexibility, so much as it is an issue of the design denying the user from having the option to fully lock the unit. The unit is either on "Hold" or it isn't. If they had made the unit with a "two stage" hold, where one stage freezes everything except the input level knob, and then a second stage that freezes everything + the input level knob, then that would make sense.

You could also say that the R09HR is flawed because it only has a "one stage" hold, with no option for leaving the levels accessible....

Having a "halfway" hold is like having no hold at all, imo. Because if one can say "it's unlikely that you'll accidentally move the input knob when the unit's on hold", then why not just also assume that you won't be accidentally hitting "Stop" when recording without the unit on Hold?

If the stop button was well recessed/shielded, and difficult to inadvertently manipulate, like the volume wheel, then maybe this would be a more valid comparison...

There is also the issue of running a preamp in front of the M10. If the unit can't fully Hold, then you have to worry about the levels on your pre, as well as the levels on the recorder. If the M10 had a full Hold, then you can just worry about the levels on the pre, and stash the recorder away in full confidence.

In that instance, why wouldn't you stick a piece of gaffers tape over the level wheel?  After all, you can set it at unity, tape it, and control levels with the pre...

In the rare instance that I've had to turn levels up/down mid-show, I've never had a problem de-activating Hold, correcting levels, and then re-engaging Hold.   

But pushing record in the dark is more of a hassle than flipping that little hold switch on the back of the HR, adjusting levels, and hitting the little switch again (as per your previous post)?

Everybody has their likes/dislikes.  At this point, though, it is a little premature, in my opinion, to declare that the M10 "falls short of a standard set by units like the R-09HR".  It has a lot of nice features, including built-in memory (which is good insurance in the event of a card problem); a large, legible screen; great battery life; pretty decent build quality; and a simple, intuitive design (which would be easy to operate in the dark, by the way).

Maybe the M10 suffers from some terrible audio flaw that has yet to come to light, but, otherwise, it is a pretty nice recorder and certainly a strong competitor for the R09HR.  Of course, I am still waiting for that D50 build quality in an M10 sized package with flawless audio...

 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: blackmikito on January 07, 2010, 07:39:42 PM
Everybody has their likes/dislikes.  At this point, though, it is a little premature, in my opinion, to declare that the M10 "falls short of a standard set by units like the R-09HR".  It has a lot of nice features...
 

You're right, it does have nice features. But being that this is a taping board, these features are being discussed with regards to useability by your average taper and how the unit matches up to other available units when looking at the same criteria. Don't get me wrong, there's no doubt that the M10 will be able to record a show successfully. And, if one doesn't mind the lack of hold on the level input, etc. there's no reason anyone can't use it with ease after some practice and workarounds.

But that misses the point. If there are things that this unit can do that another can't, they should be evaluated. Same goes when looking at units that can do things that the M10 can't.

It may sound like I'm being a killjoy, but it isn't premature to be pointing these things out, especially in this context. When the MT came out, it had all the promise in the world. The size, phantom power, higher resolution capabilities, digi-in, etc. But there were very obvious design flaws which, although possible to workaround, weren't ideal for tapers. These were pointed out on the board as soon as the literature on the unit was made available, and again when the first round of owners had reported on their experiences. Nevertheless, people here kept buying them, and soon you had several MT owners running around with battery sleds to compensate for the faulty powering, and finding tricks to keep the unit from self-shutting down etc. You still have people here using them as bit buckets, but not as the "all-in-one" that the unit was supposed to be.

But that was when the MT was one of the few solid states out there of its size. There wasn't anything else to choose from that offered the same set of specs. So, those workarounds were easier to deal with. Which is why people are still using them as bit-buckets, because there still isn't anything in that price range that can do digi-in.

So, when comparing the M10 to others in it's class, that's where I think that the unit's worth falls a little short.

This may sound like a lot of fluffing for the R-09HR. But, I'm no different that anyone else when it comes to wanting the newest products out there. Believe me, I'm waiting for something in the pricerange that will do digi-in and will have all of the features that these recorders have, too. For me, the M10 looked very promising (they all do when they first get announced), but there are already recorders out there just like it that already do the same job just as well, and which I think would work better for more people.  More distinct Hold feature, clearer button design, etc.

Line-in noise tests, and the like remain to be heard. But the reports from those who already have them show that the unit isn't reporting anything drastically different from the other solid states out there.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: CatScan on January 07, 2010, 08:06:30 PM
For me, the M10 looked very promising (they all do when they first get announced), but there are already recorders out there just like it that already do the same job just as well, and which I think would work better for more people.  More distinct Hold feature, clearer button design, etc.

The Edirol R-09HR has been mentioned, but I'm curious as to which other recorders you're referring to which do the job just as well (assuming you mean in the same price range as well). I still haven't quite decided if I should go with the PCM-M10 or not.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: blackmikito on January 07, 2010, 11:24:51 PM
For me, the M10 looked very promising (they all do when they first get announced), but there are already recorders out there just like it that already do the same job just as well, and which I think would work better for more people.  More distinct Hold feature, clearer button design, etc.

The Edirol R-09HR has been mentioned, but I'm curious as to which other recorders you're referring to which do the job just as well (assuming you mean in the same price range as well). I still haven't quite decided if I should go with the PCM-M10 or not.

I was referring to the R-09HR. But, depending on your needs there is the MT 2 and the Tascam DR units. But the best of the lot so far is still the R-09HR, imo.

Best combination of features, design, and it has a proven track record. A new recorder in it's price range would have to beat it's specs and design.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on January 08, 2010, 01:16:03 AM
One problem, mentioned by Guysonic, I believe, is analog noise on the R09HR.  This is probably not audible in the recording, but I just tend to distrust a rig with any analog glitches.  I think the reason the original R09 had no glitches is because it is based on a single (Burr-Brown) chip, which includes preamp/adc/mpeg/etc.

Coming back to the Sony, I really like the battery life and powersave mode.  This a true field recorder.  You can leave this thing in pause-record for 12hrs if you need to...

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: guysonic on January 08, 2010, 02:10:14 AM
One problem, mentioned by Guysonic, I believe, is analog noise on the R09HR.  This is probably not audible in the recording, but I just tend to distrust a rig with any analog glitches.  I think the reason the original R09 had no glitches is because it is based on a single (Burr-Brown) chip, which includes preamp/adc/mpeg/etc.

Coming back to the Sony, I really like the battery life and powersave mode.  This a true field recorder.  You can leave this thing in pause-record for 12hrs if you need to...

  Richard


True MIC input of R-09HR has very low level digital noise showing chance of coloring acoustic recordings, but this disappears LINE input using external preamp. 

As a result, 09HR remains my current choice with PA-3SX pre.  See graph below, and more information in the tech review at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm)
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/-35dBLOG88.2vs3SXpip.gif)


Sony M10 noise performance is virtually identical to D50, but actually has a far less digital noise showing.  However, M10 very low frequency response rolls off quicker so M10 noise is actually a bit greater (~3 DB @20 Hz higher) than D50

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/-35dB NOISE PLOTS 2.jpg)

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/-35dbu_n.gif)

I'm still working with a TS member's loaned M10 and hope to finsh the report this week if at all possible.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: dogmusic on January 08, 2010, 07:30:37 AM
Looking at the two recorders of the current discussion, as a recordist not a stealthist, I like the layout of the M10 better. It's clearer, and the buttons are more like a recorder and less like a remote control (as on the R-09HR). The inputs and other functions are more accessible. It looks better and feels better in the hand.

There may be slight differences in recording quality, (and I think they are probably only slight), but sometimes the pure enjoyment of using a well-designed piece of equipment is part of the recording experience.

The R-09HR may be a bit superior sonically, but, IMHO, it's really ugly.

(BTW, these photos are not intended to show relative size.)

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: tekdroid on January 08, 2010, 09:37:40 AM
More distinct Hold feature, clearer button design, etc.

I actually prefer the PCM-M10's button design. In-use, you probably will too (IMO). I know it's fashionable to dog on Sony (and frankly sometimes they really deserve it), but this is a great unit. Let me talk a bit:

1) the display is miles ahead of the Edirol on detail. The at-a-glance info is much better. The scrolling is less. There is simply more pixel detail allowing more to be shown at any one time, or simply shown more clearly. There is simply less menu-diving, generally-speaking. Compare and contrast. Look at PDF manuals back-to-back. Look at pics. See which one comes across as the toy in the display / usability department.

2) The Edirol's manual even warns, "A small amount of noise may be heard from the
display during normal operation
". Sony's doesn't 'cause they use a traditional LCD and traditional backlight that is noiseless.

3) Right under the LCD on the Sony there are dedicated DELETE and DISPLAY buttons (among others), using buttons that were designed with the finger in mind (with adequate surface area), not little cylindrical shapes scattered all over the surface like on the Edirol. Delete button is flatter than all the others, too, allowing you to 'learn' the position of others easier relative to this, too. (Incidentally the DELETE key is flatter than the web pics show, this must have been a sensible late-minute production change). Anyway, these dedicated buttons and better ergonomics and layout equal an enthusiastic YES PLEASE from me.

4) AAC and WMA support in addition to WAV and MP3. Nice bonus to expand the playback possibilities on the unit. The Edirol has no support for AAC and WMA playback.

5) Key Control and Pre-Recording. Yes please. I think these are far more useful than Reverb. A unit without at least one of them after having tried them? No thanks.

6) VOLUME control on the Sony allows easier up/down toggles of VOLUME. On the Edirol it's 2 separate gapped buttons that require more controlled finger movement. There is a raised dot on the Sony VOLUME control too, letting you know which side you are manipulating even if the unit is upside-down. It's the little things, and Sony's keep-your-finger-on-it volume toggle wins.

7) People are saying the Sony has quieter mics. I haven't tried the Edirol, but this doesn't surprise me because I think they are pretty darn good. For convenience, nothing beats recording then and there on your little unit. It's nice to know it isn't an area totally overlooked to please the accountants.

9) REC LEVEL dial is a great thing. I consider it a bonus to be able to manipulate the levels in HOLD and I consider it a bonus to have a REC LEVEL dial instead of buttons. Sony can consider every possible recording scenario by making HOLD behaviour menu-selectable, as mentioned (but I doubt I'd use it). The dial is actually very hard to accidentally move; it's well-protected and has just the right stiffness (it's not loose in motion like you may expect and doesn't protrude from any surface to make accidental brushings or movements possible in 99.8% of cases, I would guess). You need to try it.

10) Button layout. Keep in mind words don't do the Sony justice:

       [>>]                  [pause]                    [rec]
      / /                                                    / /
  [<<]                     [stop]                    [play]        [track mark]

REC: top-right button.
TRACK MARK: bottom-right button, further out.

Both dead-easy to feel anytime, anywhere, any place, anytime, without thinking. Always on the right means you simply reach for the right-edge of the unit and find them there. Rows are not symmetrical, which is great. Track Mark always has a re-assuring space above it (where the flush ACCESS light lives). REC is on the top row to the left of that space. Again, VERY easy to feel your way. Much better in use than in these words here.

PLAY: joined via a 'I can feel it' deep groove as you slide your finger down. PLAY also has a raised dot on it. Unmistakable feel.
STOP: right next to PLAY.
PAUSE: right next to RECORD.

Completely logical.

|<< and >>| are only totally out of the way, to the left, and also joined 'by feel' by a deep groove that you can feel as you slide your finger down (middle buttons have no groove, only the outer right and left ones do, so you always know where you are).

Lovely button design. Takes all of 2 glances to work out.


When you think about it, you only need to really manipulate 4 buttons for recording. |<< and >>| are ignored. 5 if you count the lovely TRACK MARK.

I dislike 4-way / 5-way navpads in a cluster on the Edirol. I think they're more inclined to get accidental pressings. Not to speak of the shape and scattering of the smaller buttons and switches on the Edirol, which are OK but just aren't when you compare it to a design that is just simply better and has more useful buttons by default (I can accept this is subjective to a certain degree, so take my likes for what they are).

11) Sony has the speaker in a better position (facing more towards you in most situations, rather than pointing down at your hand or the table as it rests on these..)

12) MIC and LINE inputs are on the top-section (preferable to me, but may not be to others or in all situations, but then again I think most situations it is preferable, and that's what matters to me). One also has a tactile raised dot for the total-in-the-dark-have-to-plug-it-in-and-don't-know-which-is-which scenarios). Not to mention the fact that Sony cleverly didn't make them the same colour.

13) Peak stereo LED indicators on the unit are totally worlds apart (and positioned better) from the poor (and sad) Edirol PEAK LED.

14) Battery life

I can go on...

With all this said, the Edirol is superior to me here:
1) The ability to rename files / create folders / move tracks on-unit (great stuff!)
2) Remote does more.
3) USB port is covered (I think all exposed ports should have those rubber pull-out/stick-in plugs to protect their cleanliness and prepare them for a long, fruitful life, especially in less-than-nice places)
4) has some switches the Sony only has in-menu (but IMO the switches are badly-positioned and harder-to-learn-the-position-of compared to Sony's more accessible-on-the-side switch positioning)
5) is user-upgradeable (but the benefit of this is debatable...it's just a nice 'what if' blanket)
6) the option to turn ON and OFF the peak-hold on the level meters (usefulness debatable)
7) 3 low-cut frequency settings (Sony, just one!)
8) Perhaps one or two other things I am missing...

In my estimation, the Edirol (and others) have a new competitor and the new competitor should have them sweating in nearly every area that matters.

The talk of the Sony not making the grade is amusing to me - but I'm open to what else Sony is doing wrong here that they could learn from their competition (at the same or similar price-point).

Just some thoughts to chew on...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: illconditioned on January 08, 2010, 11:41:00 AM
Just to continue here...

I've tried a lot of recorders (Edirol R09, Sony PCM-D50, M10, Tascam DR07, etc), probably everything except the Edirol 09HR.

The M10 is the one I carry around, on, but in Lock mode.  I use the built in mics for ambient stuff (17dBA self noise!) and I run Countryman B3 on plug in power for music.  One recorder and it does everything.

I would not replace the Edirol HR if I already had one, but if they were the same price, I would go for the Sony.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: EvilEye on January 08, 2010, 02:21:08 PM
I mentioned this before, but I don't think anyone responded.

The Edirol can sample at 88.2khz - exactly double the CD standard of 44.1.  Sony doesn't.  I don't know if this makes a difference, and if downsampling 88.2>44.1 is easier / better than 96>44.1.

I was listening to Live Trane - the European Tour, and the notes indicate that was 24/88.2 mastering.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: CatScan on January 08, 2010, 03:21:20 PM
I think I found an answer to one of my own questions I posted here: if there are any recorders that have both pre-recording and voice activated recording. According to the Tascam DR-100 manual (http://www.tascam.com/products/dr-100;9,12,3717,19.html), it can do both!

However, it's bigger than the PCM-M10, more expensive, the external mic inputs are underpowered and I believe I read somewhere that the input amps are quite noisy as well, meaning (for me) that so far it doesn't beat the PCM-M10 specs. I'm hoping someone finds out that the PCM-M10 has firmware which can be upgraded so that there's a posibility such features can be added as a bonus later on.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW
Post by: aaronji on January 08, 2010, 04:43:59 PM
Seems like time to start a part two of this thread...http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.0)