Taperssection.com

Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: aaronji on January 08, 2010, 04:43:06 PM

Title: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: aaronji on January 08, 2010, 04:43:06 PM
Continuation of http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.0)...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: aaronji on January 08, 2010, 04:50:06 PM
Looking at guysonic’s graphs (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123)), it appears to me that the line-in noise on the PCM-M10 is essentially the same as on the R09HR (perhaps fractionally lower), while the mic-in looks considerably quieter.  Nice curve with the plug-in power off too…

And is the gain from the M10 cleaner than from guy’s pre??? ;)

I mentioned this before, but I don't think anyone responded.

The Edirol can sample at 88.2khz - exactly double the CD standard of 44.1.  Sony doesn't.  I don't know if this makes a difference, and if downsampling 88.2>44.1 is easier / better than 96>44.1.

I was listening to Live Trane - the European Tour, and the notes indicate that was 24/88.2 mastering.

It's my understanding that this would make a difference with a simple linear sample rate converter, but not with the asynchronous arbitrary sample rate converters used by many (most? all?) software packages/plug-ins. 

On a related topic, this is a pretty interesting read on the whole issue of sampling rate.  Not for the faint of heart, though!  From Dan Lavry:  http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pdf (http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pdf)

EDIT:  I meant arbitrary, not asynchronous.  Still, I am not sure where I read this...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Jamos on January 09, 2010, 12:31:05 AM
just checking in here...still very happy with my M10.

I've owned and used most of the currently available portable recorders, and between the battery life, the low-noise and high audio quality, and design/ease of use, the M10 wins without a doubt. 

The only ones I like using more are the Sound Devices 7xx recorders.


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on January 09, 2010, 03:17:14 AM
Looking at guysonic’s graphs (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123)), it appears to me that the line-in noise on the PCM-M10 is essentially the same as on the R09HR (perhaps fractionally lower), while the mic-in looks considerably quieter.  Nice curve with the plug-in power off too…

And is the gain from the M10 cleaner than from guy’s pre??? ;) meant arbitrary, not asynchronous.

The term ‘Clean’ in audio really asks two questions about NOISE, and about AUDIO DISTORTIONS.

Using (my own PA-3SX) preamplifier in 09HR tests low frequency showed 'MIC POWER ON' noise is greatly reduced, AND all that high frequency digital garbage is eliminated. 

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/-35dBLOG88.2vs3SXpip.gif)
ALSO, the 09HR audible distortions (call it coloration) of at least acoustic sounds improved (more accurate audio) using the external pre and 09HR LINE input.

Such 09HR deck improvements using an external preamplifier are visually obvious, but verses the very 'clean' lack of noise M10 MIC input (and using mostly only in LOW setting with mic power off) little or no audible lower noise advantages (using external pre) with M10 deck.

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/-35dB NOISE PLOTS 2.jpg)

However, if needing M10’s mic powering turned on, and especially higher input gains than available in LOW mic (this not so likely for most recordists), then external preamplifier LINE input mode may have audible advantage of reduced low frequency noise, and more accuracy (less colored sound) than available from M10 mic input modes.

NOTE: Tests still required to prove M10’s audible colorations, if any, using Sony's mic input.  Same type tests done with 09HR mic vs. line+pre  (illustrated in thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=109703.0;all) might be appropriate for M10.

After doing most all the intentioned M10 deck electrical bench testing, and one urban ambient recording using DSM-6S/EH powered mic working the LOW setting, the only (minor) shortcoming was audible reduction of <20 cycle very low bass sounds.  I think this not an issue as this can be fixed to taste in post edit if deemed required for sound design interests or specialized audiophile type musical recordings.

While my personal favorite field recording configuration remains using the 09HR+external pre for widest bandwidth and 88.2K sampling ability, the M10+DSM mic combination shown below is a close second.  But also feel I’d choose the M10+DSM mic configuration as my first choice for all 24bit/44.1K-96K recording projects.

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/M10combo_small.jpg)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: bucsab12 on January 09, 2010, 03:03:59 PM
Thank you guysonic for all the tests that you ran.

I am a beginner at recording and have only recorded a few shows using a Zoom H2.

I have been trying to decide between the M10 and the HR9 since the M10 came out a few months ago.

The graphs that you posted here are a little too complicated for me.

Can you please tell me (as simple as possible) which recorder is better in terms of audio quality using the following setups:

1. External mics mics>External preamp/battery box>Mic Input (Mic power turned Off)

2. External mics mics>External preamp/battery box>Line Input (Mic power turned Off)

Thank you very much in advance
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 09, 2010, 04:00:41 PM
As in the posts quoted below, I'm having trouble getting a SanDisk 8GB microSD card recognized, also a 16GB card, both working in my mp3 player. I just formatted the 8GB to FAT32 with my PC and still nothing. Can anyone suggest exactly what kind of "Messin' with the menu" I should try? Thanks.


--------------------
From previous posts:

Quote from: gmm6797 on November 09, 2009, 12:52:54 AM

    FWIW, ran this puppy Friday night....
    Put in a brand new 16gb MicroSDHC on my way out the door, got to the show, it was not seen by the unit.  At set break, tried to figure out the issue.
    Put it into 2 different cell phones, which could both see the disk and the 16gb free, back in the M10, nada, messed with it for like 20 minutes, formatted it in one of the phones, nada... put it back in the unit so I would not loose it, and it all of a sudden worked.

    Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.


     "I had a similar recognition problem with an OEM Sandisk 16GB SDHC card.  I can't remember   the  exact details, but it took about 5 minutes of messin' with the menu to get it to see the card.  Once it saw it, and formatted has not been an issue since.  I can now switch out 2, 4, or 16GB cards w/o issue."
------------------------
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: junkyardt on January 09, 2010, 04:44:52 PM
apologies if these questions have been answered already, but i really don't feel like paging through 26 pages of the previous thread to find out. they are pretty specific questions anyway.

from those who have held one in hand, how tight/loose is the level knob on the PCM-M10? as a D50 owner, my main complaint with it is that the knob is very loose and can be moved around by accident too easily. has it been tightened up in the M10 or is it still very loose?

also i always felt that the level adjusting function should have been included as part of the hold feature. has that issue been fixed with the M10?

also, has anyone confirmed whether the internal memory of the M10 has sony's typical encryption or not? i once tried to retrieve a deleted recording from the internal memory of the D50 by trying to get a freeware recovery program (undelete, uneraser, etc.) to recognize it, and no program would read the disk. i found out that these same programs would in fact read the internal memory of other brands of recorders, but that sony puts some sort of encryption on their products so that only they can access it in that way (and of course they want you to mail them the recorder and charge you like $50 per retrieval.)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on January 09, 2010, 08:12:34 PM
I'd like to buy a PCM-M10, but being in Europe I see that prices in the States are much lower. Unfortunately many U.S. based companies over-charge for shipping outside of the States (or they don't offer international sales at all).
Any suggestions for a reliable dealer which offers good prices and trouble-free transactions?
Preferrably someone who also sells the PCM-M10P as the "P" (pro?) model comes in matt black (or white if you have that preferance), and not glossy black as the non-"P" comes in.

I'm also concerned about the AC adapter (charger?) that comes with the unit (but no rechargeable batteries?) -does it come with North American/Japanese prongs, or a socket for plugging an AC cable into, and is it a multi-voltage type (90-240V or similar)?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on January 09, 2010, 08:24:01 PM
from those who have held one in hand, how tight/loose is the level knob on the PCM-M10?
It is feels tighter. More importantly maybe, the diameter of the dial is smaller with less surface exposure on either side (but has improved raised ridges for grip). It is improved over the PCM-D50 but if this is a make-or-break feature, try it out before buying (if you get a chance). Otherwise, offloading the unit second-hand should be a minimal-loss type of situation.

also i always felt that the level adjusting function should have been included as part of the hold feature. has that issue been fixed with the M10?
The levels can be adjusted in HOLD and there is no menu option to lock levels.

also, has anyone confirmed whether the internal memory of the M10 has sony's typical encryption or not? i once tried to retrieve a deleted recording from the internal memory of the D50 by trying to get a freeware recovery program (undelete, uneraser, etc.) to recognize it, and no program would read the disk.

*Both internal and external storage mount as standard (FAT32) USB Mass Storage volumes.
*The files themselves have zero encryption (you can play them natively in any modern operating system, without additional hardware or software).
*Are you sure you had troubles with the PCM-D50 and not some other model? I can't guess why you had this result, except maybe that you told the programs to recover from a different file system (all this having been said, I have not run any recovery software on my units to recover accidental deletions, so perhaps others can chime in with their experience).
* Hi-MD / NetMD / SonicStage and their persistent DRM paranoia in their audio products gave Sony a bad name in audio (and ease-of-use and reliability). I am glad those days are gone with these products - thanks to much of the competition eating away at their market and them re-thinking their strategy.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on January 09, 2010, 08:29:39 PM
Any suggestions for a reliable dealer which offers good prices and trouble-free transactions?
I bought from B&H.
Preferrably someone who also sells the PCM-M10P as the "P" (pro?) model comes in matt black (or white if you have that preferance), and not glossy black as the non-"P" comes in.
This is what's confusing. The standard PCM-M10 is not glossy (at least not the GREY model which Sony calls Black). I haven't seen the PCM-M10P model anywhere. 
I'm also concerned about the AC adapter (charger?) that comes with the unit (but no rechargeable batteries?) -does it come with North American/Japanese prongs, or a socket for plugging an AC cable into, and is it a multi-voltage type (90-240V or similar)?

US-type, not multi-voltage. Get a voltage converter on ebay (cheap) with the appropriate plug to plug the voltage converter into your local power.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on January 09, 2010, 08:51:22 PM
I had a similar recognition problem with an OEM Sandisk 16GB SDHC card.

OEM. Is this an ebay purchase?
As far as I'm aware, Sandisk don't offer bulk OEM-type cards for retail. Ebay is more-often-than-not a counterfeit paradise when it comes to memory.

I had zero issues with an 8GB genuine Sandisk I slot in a few times (to test reliability of detecting the thing); worked every time.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 10, 2010, 12:34:15 AM
Has anyone came across a good priced unit in Europe please??
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 10, 2010, 12:37:34 AM
The 16GB OEM was from a previous post--and that poster got it to work, counterfeit or not. I'm looking for anyone who has had the problem and solved it, because there's nothing in the Sony manual about how to troubleshoot the card slot.

Amusingly, the PCM-M10 is considered "broadcast or professional" equipment by Sony--and its weekend customer support is only for consumer products. I guess radio stations all shut down on the weekends and nothing ever goes wrong. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on January 10, 2010, 01:41:01 AM
The 16GB OEM was from a previous post--and that poster got it to work, counterfeit or not. I'm looking for anyone who has had the problem and solved it, because there's nothing in the Sony manual about how to troubleshoot the card slot.
Detail Menu
Format the memory currently selected in “Memory” setting in the
menu, deleting all the data in the memory and resetting the folder
structure to its default status.
Execute:
“Formatting...” appears and the memory will be formatted.
Cancel*:
The memory will not be formatted.
PNotes
• Do not use your computer to format a memory card you use
with the PCM recorder. Format it with the formatting function
of the PCM recorder.
• Once the memory has been deleted, you cannot retrieve the data
that was deleted.
-------------------


On using a memory card
• When formatting (initializing) a memory
card, make sure to use the PCM recorder to
format it. Memory cards formatted with
Windows or other devices may be
recognized as incompatible media and
cannot be used with the PCM recorder.
• If you format a memory card containing
recorded data, the recorded data will be
deleted. Be careful not to delete important
data.


------------------------------

Format Error •
The PCM recorder has been formatted using a computer. You
cannot perform operations, including recording or playing,
because there is no copy of the control file required for operation.
Format the PCM recorder using the formatting function in the
menu.

--------------------------

Memory Card Error •
An error occurred while a memory card was being inserted into
the memory card slot. Remove and try inserting it again. If this
message persists, use a new memory card.

-------------------------------

A sprinkling of advice from the manual.
There is more, but it's basically the same stuff; start with a blank card with zero files on it, do not format in the computer (and format in the device itself).

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 10, 2010, 09:37:49 AM
Oh, never mind. Manual, p.36

I was putting it in upside-down. The label faces the back of the unit. 

Although it goes right in with the label up, like every other piece of microSD equipment I own...just...D'oh.

Well maybe this exchange will spare someone else this dopey "problem."
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on January 10, 2010, 02:06:06 PM
tekdroid: I also looked at buying from B&H, but quickly moved on because they overcharge on shipping (no wonder they can keep their prices competitive).
I'm considering buying one via eBay (new, "buy it now") as some sellers have the decency to charge no more than the actual shipping costs (while still keeping the recorder competitively priced).

I've done a lot of Google searching and it seems that the "P" model only comes up in the Asia/Pacific region, and then mostly just as an announcements. The only place I've actually seen it for sale is at Expandore in Singapore where it costs US$ 316 (http://www.expandore.biz/product_detail.asp?productid=3767&codeid=&catid=43&brandid=155&formatid=218&start=1) to order, but it quickly became expensive with their shipping costs etc.
I think I'm just going with a regular "non-P" model. It's not worth it just to get the matt black (instead of glossy) and the silly "fur hat" (windshield).

Too bad, but very strange that the AC adapter is 110/120V only. Nowadays when it's so common that people travel devices like these often come with multi-voltage adapters. After all, it's not surprising that someone doing field recording, interviews etc. travel from one region to another.
I personally don't think it's worth the hassle of buying a converter, but rather buy a new AC adapter. Actually I think I already have a multi-voltage AC adapter from Sony for 3V which I've used with a MiniDisc recorder. If the polarity is the same and it outputs enough power I could use it with the PCM-M10.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 10, 2010, 03:48:46 PM
For what it's worth, the adapter has a yellow plug with + at the center and - on the rim.

output:
DC3V/cc3V 1A

I got mine from Beach Camera in New Jersey, $280, free US shipping. You might also try Adorama.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 10, 2010, 04:17:58 PM
Too bad, but very strange that the AC adapter is 110/120V only.

Do you really even need an A/C adapter given how long the batteries last and that it does not recharge internal batteries? I never use A/C adapters with my recorders unless needed to charge an internal battery.

I got mine on a deal like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-PCM-M10-Digital-Audio-Recorder-Matte-Black_W0QQitemZ300377158971QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVoice_Recorders?hash=item45efdfb53b
Then you get 8% cash back and 2% E-bay bucks for a net of under $250 shipped after rebates.. It's matte black too.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on January 10, 2010, 05:18:48 PM
Beach camera doesn't ship outside the U.S. according to their eBay page. I haven't looked at Adorama yet though.
I'm considering buying one from Freq city sound lighting staging (http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-PCM-M10-Digital-Recorder-Warranty-Black-or-Red_W0QQitemZ360200215179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53dd9b1a8b) for US$ 290 plus shipping. And to me here in Europe they only charge US$ 16 for shipping which is a more realistic number than the 60 or 80 bucks others charge!

The AC adapter I already have only outputs 500mA, so I'll have to get another one... if I need it.
Most likely though I'll just use two NiMH batteries and a normal battery charger.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: mloewen on January 10, 2010, 05:48:55 PM
I always forget which way  the micro card goes Too. It fits either way.

 My M10 has had a couple of times when it acted weird.It was on record but levels didn't show.It was turned up all the way. I turned it off and when it came back was fine.

I know it tells you to format the card on the recorder not your computer. I don't know what that would look like if it was a problem with formatting a card?  Probably just not read it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Grey Area on January 10, 2010, 05:58:10 PM
I'm considering buying one from Freq city sound lighting staging (http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-PCM-M10-Digital-Recorder-Warranty-Black-or-Red_W0QQitemZ360200215179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53dd9b1a8b) for US$ 290 plus shipping. And to me here in Europe they only charge US$ 16 for shipping which is a more realistic number than the 60 or 80 bucks others charge!

Is that really worth it? I live in Germany and ended up buying my PCM-M10 locally instead. That $16 shipping in the auction is USPS 1st Class International - despite its glamorous name this is actually pretty much the cheapest, slowest and unsafest shipping method available. Expect to wait for weeks, and there is no tracking, so you will never know where the package is. And if it never shows up, no one will know where it disappeared. I only use it for really cheap stuff, or by mistake when I forgot to read the full auction description. :-)

The safer shipping methods (USPS Global Express etc.) for a package of this size will usually be around $30 to $40, in my experience. Add customs duties and import sales tax and you are close to European prices. And what is the warranty status of a US-bought Sony in Europe?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: aaronji on January 10, 2010, 06:21:57 PM
Oh, never mind. Manual, p.36

I was putting it in upside-down. The label faces the back of the unit. 

Although it goes right in with the label up, like every other piece of microSD equipment I own...just...D'oh.

Well maybe this exchange will spare someone else this dopey "problem."

This cracked me up, because I did the same thing.  A brand new 8 GB and, when that didn't work, the 2 GB from my phone.  It will insert and lock upside-down, unlike with most card slots.  After I read your post, I thought it might be the same thing but I didn't want to embarrass you (or myself) by posting that.  Sitting at dinner with the wife, I decided I should PM you.  When I got home, though, you had posted your "solution"...So, d'oh right there with you!  In retrospect, it is a clever design (microSD one direction and Memory Stick Micro the other)...

I'm considering buying one from Freq city sound lighting staging (http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-PCM-M10-Digital-Recorder-Warranty-Black-or-Red_W0QQitemZ360200215179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53dd9b1a8b) for US$ 290 plus shipping. And to me here in Europe they only charge US$ 16 for shipping which is a more realistic number than the 60 or 80 bucks others charge!

Is that really worth it? I live in Germany and ended up buying my PCM-M10 locally instead. That $16 shipping in the auction is USPS 1st Class International - despite its glamorous name this is actually pretty much the cheapest, slowest and unsafest shipping method available. Expect to wait for weeks, and there is no tracking, so you will never know where the package is. And if it never shows up, no one will know where it disappeared. I only use it for really cheap stuff, or by mistake when I forgot to read the full auction description. :-)

The safer shipping methods (USPS Global Express etc.) for a package of this size will usually be around $30 to $40, in my experience. Add customs duties and import sales tax and you are close to European prices. And what is the warranty status of a US-bought Sony in Europe?

No doubt.  I have generally not saved much buying from the US, unless I go there to pick it up myself...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on January 10, 2010, 09:23:36 PM
tekdroid: I also looked at buying from B&H, but quickly moved on because they overcharge on shipping (no wonder they can keep their prices competitive).
Keep in mind they use trackable delivery. It's not so different from other stores that use the same methods of delivery. I make it worth my while by buying other stuff in addition to the recorder.

I've done a lot of Google searching and it seems that the "P" model only comes up in the Asia/Pacific region, and then mostly just as an announcements. The only place I've actually seen it for sale is at Expandore in Singapore where it costs US$ 316 (http://www.expandore.biz/product_detail.asp?productid=3767&codeid=&catid=43&brandid=155&formatid=218&start=1) to order, but it quickly became expensive with their shipping costs etc.
B&H are now offering the non-P with case thrown in for $275 so it's not so bad (if you consider the case worth something to you).

I think I'm just going with a regular "non-P" model. It's not worth it just to get the matt black (instead of glossy) and the silly "fur hat" (windshield).
Keep in mind the non-P is matte (ie. the GREY unit Sony call Black is matte, not gloss), so there is no difference there. The only difference seems to be included fur, as you say.

Too bad, but very strange that the AC adapter is 110/120V only. Nowadays when it's so common that people travel devices like these often come with multi-voltage adapters. After all, it's not surprising that someone doing field recording, interviews etc. travel from one region to another.
It probably costs them a few cents more so they decided against it :) I agree totally. Same thing with the PCM-D50 I got from the US, and the Hi-MD units I have.

I personally don't think it's worth the hassle of buying a converter, but rather buy a new AC adapter. Actually I think I already have a multi-voltage AC adapter from Sony for 3V which I've used with a MiniDisc recorder. If the polarity is the same and it outputs enough power I could use it with the PCM-M10.

Up to you. I like the sureness of using the manufacturer's included AC adaptor (and not worrying about plugs and socket polarity) and just letting it see the 110V-120V it wants, but there is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.


Earmonger,
The manual could be clearer where they describe how to insert it. Probably the manual's biggest weakness. Had I been in charge of writing it, I would have re-worded that bit. For instance, I would not have written the complete sentence then made the customer read the asterisked * bit. Less clear.

Instead, they should have said: "With the back of the recorder facing you, insert..." for both sentences. I'm sure they could have done that without using any more paper, too.



Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on January 10, 2010, 09:34:07 PM
My M10 has had a couple of times when it acted weird.It was on record but levels didn't show.It was turned up all the way. I turned it off and when it came back was fine.

Little glitches like this is what I hope to not see, but the fact that it happened more than once to you is not a good sign. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Falconidave on January 11, 2010, 12:41:44 AM
My M10 has had a couple of times when it acted weird.It was on record but levels didn't show.It was turned up all the way. I turned it off and when it came back was fine.

Little glitches like this is what I hope to not see, but the fact that it happened more than once to you is not a good sign. Anyone else?

Nope, not mine, it works great!!  No problem with the 16GB Sandisk card I threw at it, formatted in machine, and all is well.  I even tried using the plug-in power going mic-in with some CA-11's at a really loud 2 hour rock show and it performed beautifully!!  I love this deck, everything my D50 has in the size of my cell phone.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on January 11, 2010, 02:16:45 AM
Thank you guysonic for all the tests that you ran.

I am a beginner at recording and have only recorded a few shows using a Zoom H2.

I have been trying to decide between the M10 and the HR9 since the M10 came out a few months ago.

The graphs that you posted here are a little too complicated for me.

Can you please tell me (as simple as possible) which recorder is better in terms of audio quality using the following setups:

1. External mics mics>External preamp/battery box>Mic Input (Mic power turned Off)

2. External mics mics>External preamp/battery box>Line Input (Mic power turned Off)

Thank you very much in advance
M10 seems best choice over 09HR especially for using MIC input modes as M10 shows little (1 spike @~ 10K Hz) or virtually no high frequency digital noise.

Suggest battery box powered mics to ONLY use MIC input jack as M10 has overload resistant MIC input ability to +2 Dbu.

And if using external preamplifiers having active gain, use only the LINE input jack OVERLOAD RESISTANT TO OVER +24Dbu.

Those having memory card problems should remember to ALWAYS format the flash cards INSIDE THE DECK. 
M10 requires special card files to properly operate and you will not get these formatting in any other device. (This mentioned in the user’s manual.)


The REC adjust knob on the unit I tested seemed resistant against accidental movement.  However, most rotating mechanical knobs, at least all without detent stops, are subject to turning resistance variations.  Also realize all the parts & deck made/QA’d in China factories, so very likely some knobs are much tighter than others.  With use/age these knobs usually get a bit looser.  Time will tell if or how fast this occurs.

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/M10RecKnob.jpg)

TIP: Placing a small patch (edge folded) duct tape from deck’s back covering only the knob’s lower portion will capture your REC level adjustments from moving accidentally.  The tape’s short folded-back section allows easy partial removal for adjustment.

TIPS: Suggest (back left edge) MIC input HIGH/LOW sensitivity, MANUAL/AUTO, and (back right edge) DPC ON/OFF slide switches be taped down as these are quite free to move with slightest force.  Both the owner and me found these switches moved way too easily when deck was placed inside/removed from a pocket or handled. 

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/M10Tape.jpg)

The owner did place a brand of gaffer’s/duct tape over these switches, but this tape left massive amounts of clogging adhesive when removed for adjustments.  I cleaned off this residue replacing with much thinner “Duck” brand of duct tape having way better chance of being removed and re-positioned without leaving clogging residue. 

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/DuckTape.jpg)



Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on January 11, 2010, 02:45:16 AM
I even tried using the plug-in power going mic-in with some CA-11's at a really loud 2 hour rock show and it performed beautifully!!  I love this deck, everything my D50 has in the size of my cell phone.
M10 mic 'plug-in-power' feature outputs a maximum of +3 volts with no loading, and 0.5 volts with 1K ohm load. 

I measured slightly less D50 no load mic powering output at +2.8 volts.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: illconditioned on January 11, 2010, 02:50:54 AM
I even tried using the plug-in power going mic-in with some CA-11's at a really loud 2 hour rock show and it performed beautifully!!  I love this deck, everything my D50 has in the size of my cell phone.
M10 mic 'plug-in-power' feature outputs a maximum of +3 volts with no loading, and 0.5 volts with 1K ohm load. 

I measured slightly less D50 no load mic powering output at +2.8 volts.
I've used the Edirol R09, Sony D50 and M10, all with plug in power, with a variety of mics, including the CA-11.

It is nice to have a "two piece" unit.  Simple, and no extra boxes/connections to worry about.

Samples at: http://Soundmann.com.  (Listen to Countryman B3 and Sennheiser KE4.  Those are my favourites.)

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 11, 2010, 06:14:00 AM
guy-can you test for the approximate unity gain setting?

Also it'd be great to know if there is a level below which you would still get clipping if you had to set the level below that point to keep the meters from going over 0 dB. I made a very informal test line in to try to determine this approximately and it looked like that point was probably very low (possibly around 1/10 on the wheel). This ratio to the highest level appears to me to be a good bit lower than on Sony DAT's and MD's which is a good thing.

When I was using a Korg MR-1, I found your testing results of these issues invaluable in making flawless recordings.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on January 11, 2010, 07:03:02 AM
Apart from the Sony protective casing (LPCM-M10G) as seen below, is there any neoprene or similar "skin" like protection which can be kept on all the time to protect against scratches etc. when in use? The Sony casing is nice when dragging it around, but of no help when actually using the unit.
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2461/370x2511.jpg)(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5966/370x251.jpg)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on January 11, 2010, 07:30:49 AM
guy-can you test for the approximate unity gain setting?

Also it'd be great to know if there is a level below which you would still get clipping if you had to set the level below that point to keep the meters from going over 0 dB. I made a very informal test line in to try to determine this approximately and it looked like that point was probably very low (possibly around 1/10 on the wheel). This ratio to the highest level appears to me to be a good bit lower than on Sony DAT's and MD's which is a good thing.

When I was using a Korg MR-1, I found your testing results of these issues invaluable in making flawless recordings.
Going in LINE jack with REC level knob set at #6 and with deck set for LINE (not headphone) output, the LINE output jack signal equaled the input giving unity 'system gain.' 

My impression was lowest stable REC knob setting is about #1.  In other words, suggest that no lower than #1 REC level setting be used to assure not overloading the deck showing maximum signal indications at or near 0 dB VU FS.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 11, 2010, 08:14:05 AM
Great info, guy. Much appreciated. I'm shocked that my informal test sniffed out the correct minimum mic level setting, but I've never had a clue how to determine unity gain. Very informative!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: colargol on January 11, 2010, 12:30:07 PM
Suggest battery box powered mics to ONLY use MIC input jack as M10 has overload resistant MIC input ability to +2 Dbu.

And if using external preamplifiers having active gain, use only the LINE input jack OVERLOAD RESISTANT TO OVER +24Dbu.

Thanks, Guy!
Do you have the corresponding numbers for the R-09HR?
-Colargol
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: bucsab12 on January 11, 2010, 01:37:38 PM
Thank you very much guy for your response.

You stated in an earlier post

Quote
Suggest battery box powered mics to ONLY use MIC input jack as M10 has overload resistant MIC input ability to +2 Dbu.

And if using external preamplifiers having active gain, use only the LINE input jack OVERLOAD RESISTANT TO OVER +24Dbu.

I am sorry in advance if this seems like a stupid question, but being a novice at this hobby, can you please explain the two statements that you made?

Why should I only use the MIC Input for battery box powered mics? Will it damage the Line Input if I will use it or is there another reason?

Why should I only use the Line Input when using an external preamp? What will happen if I'll use the MIC Input when running mics>preamp>MIC In?

I ordered a C-9000 preamp and CA-14 mics from Chris Church and I would like to know what did you mean by those statements because I would like to go mics>preamp>recorder in certain shows, and in others, running mics>custom made battery box>recorder.

From what I understood from your previous post, the M10 is superior to the R-09HR using the MIC Input. Can the same be said for the Line Input?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 11, 2010, 02:39:05 PM
Can't answer all your questions, but the Mic jack puts the signal through a preamp.

If you are putting the signal through a preamp already, then you go through the Line jack.

The idea is that your outboard preamp provides better quality than the built-in one, so you bypass it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 11, 2010, 02:44:54 PM
Why should I only use the MIC Input for battery box powered mics? Will it damage the Line Input if I will use it or is there another reason?

Why should I only use the Line Input when using an external preamp? What will happen if I'll use the MIC Input when running mics>preamp>MIC In?

I think Guy is just recommending always going mic in with a battery box because he feels that there is no danger of overloading the recorder going mic in (the main reason to go line in at a loud show) and you don't need as much gain from the recorder going mic in. There is no danger of damaging the recorder going line in.

Normally it is rare to go mic in with a preamp, again because of the danger of overloading the mic input. However Chris Church once posted this (I save all useful tidbits I read here):

"You can run my preamp into a mic input. At full gain on my preamp but you have to make sure its a low volume show and that you have your mic input way down and slowly bring it up until you have enough gain. That's the benefit of a very low noise preamp. You should then be able to get all the gain you need. Make sure the plug in power is off the recorder. This could be great for acoustic if the recorder's mic input is not too quiet at high gain levels".

If you don't know what you're doing, you could easily overload your mic input by using an external pre into it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on January 11, 2010, 05:05:56 PM
Apart from the Sony protective casing (LPCM-M10G) as seen below, is there any neoprene or similar "skin" like protection which can be kept on all the time to protect against scratches etc. when in use? The Sony casing is nice when dragging it around, but of no help when actually using the unit.
I still have a few of the R-09/09HR 'view cases' tested to also fit the M10 in the various uses of this same case shown below with the M10.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/M10-CASE_COMP-VIEW_1010640.jpg) (http://www.sonicstudios.com/MIC_USE_IN-CASE_1010647.jpg) (http://www.sonicstudios.com/EXT-MIC_CLOSED-CASE_1010663.jpg) (http://www.sonicstudios.com/M10_EXT-MIC_INPUT_1010623.jpg) (http://www.sonicstudios.com/M10+EXT-MIC2_1010661.jpg)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: steventhecat on January 11, 2010, 07:23:36 PM
I am thinking about purchasing the M10 and was wondering how clear the stereo separation is when recording with the internal mics.

How do the omnis compare with the uni-directional mic pairs in other units of this price class (I'm also considering the Olympus LS-10/11)?

Is the difference in stereo imaging negligible due to the quality of the built-in microphones on recorders in this range?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: illconditioned on January 11, 2010, 07:26:25 PM
I am thinking about purchasing the M10 and was wondering how clear the stereo separation is when recording with the internal mics.

How do the omnis compare with the uni-directional mic pairs in other units of this price class (I'm also considering the Olympus LS-10/11)?

Is the difference in stereo imaging negligible due to the quality of the built-in microphones on recorders in this range?

Thanks.
Stereo separation is not very good at all!  But that is to be expected with this arrangement (omni mics, close to each other, no baffle).

It sounds great, clear, low noise, just almost mono.  For impromptu recording, that is fine.  I've also tried a baffle and that helps.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: steventhecat on January 11, 2010, 07:30:47 PM
Thanks for your reply.

Another question: Can the mic input jack handle recording from a stereo mic or an adapter that splits the miniplug to accommodate a stereo arrangement, or does it mix things to mono?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on January 11, 2010, 07:36:09 PM
Guysonic: your case looks very similar to the one from Sony and isn't what I meant.

I would like something similar to this tight-fitting iPod "skin" from Incase (http://www.goincase.com/products/detail/slim-sleeve-cl56236/1) which seems to be made out of heavy-duty rubber, neoprene or something similar (and would prevent scratches and everyday tear and wear when using the PCM-M10 out in the field):
(http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/589/magenta1.jpg)

Not surprisingly they don't have one for the Sony PCM-M10  ;)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on January 11, 2010, 11:47:28 PM
I haven't got one to test but I suspect that the built in mics' stereo width could easily be increased through the use of a mid/side width VST plugin in your DAW such as "Voxengo MSED".
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: sunjan on January 12, 2010, 08:57:41 AM
Do you really even need an A/C adapter given how long the batteries last and that it does not recharge internal batteries? I never use A/C adapters with my recorders unless needed to charge an internal battery.

The cheapest street price in EU right now is €299 + shipping:
http://geizhals.at/eu/a479762.html

If you buy from the US, you can get it for €198 + shipping:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360200215179

The cons, as pointed out earlier: 110V adapter only, potential warranty issues (check with your Sony country rep before ordering), risk paying $$$ in customs.

My general advice when ordering stuff from outside EU: find a friend travelling into EU instead to eliminate the customs risk. If you don't care about AC adapter and trust the Sony warranty, make the maths if it's still worth getting it locally or not.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on January 12, 2010, 09:42:29 AM
In my case I have to pay import duties/tax anyway (I'm in Norway: not part of the EU), so even buying from another European country would incur an import duty. For EU citizens it might make more sense to buy from other EU countries, but for me it might make more sense to buy it from the States.

But I do agree that the warranty issue is a concern. However, I haven't actually seen the PCM-M10 for sale anywhere here (I've searched the web locally, and found many places selling the PCM-D1 and PCM-D50, but strangely not the PCM-M10), so I might be forced to buy it from overseas anyway.

The AC adapter: if bought from that shop in the UK where you found the cheapest price I believe it'll come with a 3-prong UK socket, so it won't be directly usable here (at least not without a travel adapter). The situation would be different if I was to buy it from say Germany where the electrical plug is the same.
Anyone in Europe know the Sony model number of the 220/240V AC adapter with a Germany type AC plug? Maybe it can be ordered as a spare part unless the cost is prohibitively high.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 12, 2010, 01:38:29 PM
Can the mic input jack handle recording from a stereo mic or an adapter that splits the miniplug to accommodate a stereo arrangement, or does it mix things to mono?

The mic jack is stereo.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 12, 2010, 02:02:08 PM
This doesn't directly answer your question, but the sound quality of the LS-10 internals is terrible, at least when recording music. The M10 sounds great.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Grey Area on January 12, 2010, 02:17:02 PM
Anyone in Europe know the Sony model number of the 220/240V AC adapter with a Germany type AC plug? Maybe it can be ordered as a spare part unless the cost is prohibitively high.

Yes, it is AC-ES3010K2, and now I see it actually does 100-240V.

Edited to add: I just googled the model number because I was curious what Sony charges for these things, and it seems there are various nationality versions of it, with different plugs, but all of them having the same model number. Sony logistics must be fun.  ::)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: EvilEye on January 12, 2010, 04:08:23 PM
While my personal favorite field recording configuration remains using the 09HR+external pre for widest bandwidth and 88.2K sampling ability, the M10+DSM mic combination shown below is a close second.  But also feel I’d choose the M10+DSM mic configuration as my first choice for all 24bit/44.1K-96K recording projects.

what is the benefit of 88.2K over 96K.  Easier / more accurate downsampling ?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: steventhecat on January 12, 2010, 07:21:40 PM
Thanks for everyone's input on the stereo separation questions. I went ahead and ordered an M10 through B&H last night. Looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: RichT on January 13, 2010, 10:03:51 AM
I bought one from the seller cr2424 and had it shipped to the UK- reasonable postage, took about 2 weeks

They're getting a bit cheaper in Europe now, pinknoise have them for £269 http://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk/sony-pcm-m10-p-483.html

Very pleased with mine- got a couple of Countryman B3s on the way too


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 14, 2010, 05:30:05 PM
I believe I've discovered an advantage of the M10 over the R-09HR that I haven't seen mentioned before. When I change the recording level on my HR during a performance it leaves tiny gaps in the wave file that make the unedited file sound awful, although often you can edit out the gaps and can't hear the difference. This does not happen with the M10 and (surprisingly), the old R-09.

I know we don't want to change levels during a performance, but occasionally it may be necessary.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 15, 2010, 12:49:01 AM
the r-09 created pops during the recoring if levels were changed. its even stated in the manual.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: blackmikito on January 15, 2010, 01:38:58 AM
I believe I've discovered an advantage of the M10 over the R-09HR that I haven't seen mentioned before. When I change the recording level on my HR during a performance it leaves tiny gaps in the wave file that make the unedited file sound awful, although often you can edit out the gaps and can't hear the difference. This does not happen with the M10 and (surprisingly), the old R-09.

I know we don't want to change levels during a performance, but occasionally it may be necessary.

Very good catch. That is a significant difference between the two units. I definitely have to give the M10 the edge over the R-09HR in that case. Whereas there are workarounds for most of the differences between the two units, you can't work around that one.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 15, 2010, 03:42:37 AM
the r-09 created pops during the recoring if levels were changed. its even stated in the manual.

I see now that you're correct, but it seems to be much more audible in my HR. I never noticed it using the R-09, but noticed it the first time I recorded with the HR. The M10 doesn't seem to do it and my MZ-RH1 never seemed to.

I've don't have the time to study the manuals to all my equipment. I just skim them & study the parts where I have questions. I learn most of what I need to know reading posts here and make much better recordings than I would if I relied on the manuals alone and hadn't discovered this site.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tardis71 on January 15, 2010, 09:11:08 AM
Interesting info fmaderjr ! If the RH9 does have little breaks in the wav when adjusting the volume when recording, that's a deal breaker in itself... I'm loving my M10 I've already recorded a few shows with the internal mics and they sound just as good, if not better than shows recorded with my core sound cards. (I'm waiting on some CA14s and a ugly) Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on January 15, 2010, 09:24:26 AM
the r-09 created pops during the recoring if levels were changed. its even stated in the manual.

I wasn't aware of this. Is it even noticable though when recording a loud source?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 15, 2010, 12:09:11 PM
It should be noticeable recording any source since there are tiny gaps in the wave form.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on January 15, 2010, 01:22:51 PM
How hot of a signal can the M10 take without distorting?

I've been waiting for a small recorder able to handle a +25DbFS signal like the 722, and other pro level devices, can.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 15, 2010, 03:20:48 PM
M10 has overload resistant MIC input ability to +2 Dbu.
LINE input jack OVERLOAD RESISTANT TO OVER +24Dbu.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: neo_fit on January 15, 2010, 07:54:03 PM
So the M10 seems very close to the Olympus LS-11. Has anyone made a direct comparison of the two. I would not be surprised if the LS-11 was better at picking small nuances and had a brighter tone, but what for the lows ?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 16, 2010, 01:18:37 PM
I think one of the main issue ith the m10 is the handling noise to tunrn the level knob. nothing beats the mt for this. theyre on the front and noisless to turn up/down. The m10 doesnt create noise in turning up/down internally but the handling noise is picked up. its 1" away from teh mic. i can't see how to go about this. if the remote had level adj this would be a great recorder.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 16, 2010, 01:37:39 PM
I think one of the main issue ith the m10 is the handling noise to tunrn the level knob.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. This is a non issue for most of us who will use external mics for concert recordings. Even those who will use it at times to make ambient recordings with the internals probably will have no trouble setting the levels in advance.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 16, 2010, 02:33:07 PM
I think one of the main issue ith the m10 is the handling noise to tunrn the level knob.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. This is a non issue for most of us who will use external mics for concert recordings. Even those who will use it at times to make ambient recordings with the internals probably will have no trouble setting the levels in advance.

Yes with external preamps/mics it wont make a difference.
Yes for ambient recordings it wont make a difference.

I was obviously refering to using it for concert recordings with internal mics where you are stuck with a begining, and end, and a concert in between.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 16, 2010, 05:11:41 PM
I've been doing more live recording and remain quite impressed. At low sensitivity with the limiter on, the built-in mics can handle a full-blast rehearsal.

After putting up for many years with minidisc, this thing is so close to ideal that I have an exceedingly short wishlist.

1) Make the Hold button also lock Recording Level (though the knob is stiff enough and guarded enough so this isn't particularly a problem), Mic Sensitivity and Manual/Auto switches, for in-the-pocket use.

2) Make a remote with a level indicator (backlit) and controls, like the RM-MC40ELK minidisc remote (which, however, lacked a Record button--gotta keep that).

3) Fewer steps for Track mark removal. It takes a lot of presses to get to where you're deleting track marks.  Track marking during recording is nice and smooth, though.

4) Recording level...the knob is obviously as big as it can be. But I do wish there were more subtle gradations available. Another reason to put recording level on the remote, with a scale of 1-50. 

Of course, if there is a PCM-M11 that fixes all this in the next year, I'm going to feel as silly as the people who got the Edirol R09 before the HR version...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: blackmikito on January 16, 2010, 06:36:59 PM
Of course, if there is a PCM-M11 that fixes all this in the next year, I'm going to feel as silly as the people who got the Edirol R09 before the HR version...

The reality is that there will be something within even the next 3-6 months which will probably give everything currently on the market a run for the money.

The NAMM show is going on as we speak, and already there have been no fewer than 6 new portable solidstate recorders debuted. The market for these recorders doesn't just depend on tapers, but on musicians, journalists, tv/video engineers, and those in the speech profession as well.  So, now that the technology has officially arrived, everybody is trying to cash in.

With that in mind, a year from now, everything currently on the market will likely be outshined by at least one of the new models. There will most definitely be something out there with lower input noise levels, digi-in, better internal mics, etc. And the things will probably be cheaper to boot.

Which is why deciding between the M10 and the R-09HR is ultimately a temporary game.  If you're the type who wants "the best thing out there", it's not likely that you'll be holding onto any of these things for longer than 1-2 years.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on January 16, 2010, 07:27:04 PM
Of course, if there is a PCM-M11 that fixes all this in the next year, I'm going to feel as silly as the people who got the Edirol R09 before the HR version...

I dunno: having read about the R-09HR's inability to cope with rec level changes, I'm feeling not very silly at all...

I think the M10 is going to be my next purchase, the only thing that's making me hesitate is the lack of a digi-in.

That said, M10 plus an MT2 would still cost less than a D50 and would have me covered...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 16, 2010, 09:14:28 PM
deciding between the M10 and the R-09HR is ultimately a temporary game.  If you're the type who wants "the best thing out there", it's not likely that you'll be holding onto any of these things for longer than 1-2 years.

The way technology progresses, this will always be the case. But both will be excellent recorders for a few more years at least. I still have a MT 24/96 around and can make absolutely flawless recordings with it and an ST-9100. I just prefer using an M10 or R-09HR due to the ease of use and not having to deal with a battery pack. Even if you only get a year or 2's use out of an M10 or R-09HR, they don't cost a whole lot and if you want to upgrade you can probably sell them for 75% of what you paid (if you bought at a good price).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on January 16, 2010, 10:05:54 PM
Quote from: blackmikito
The reality is that there will be something within even the next 3-6 months which will probably give everything currently on the market a run for the money.

Things don't move that fast in audio, I reckon.

Sony PCM-D50 has been selling for 2+ years. I didn't see anything outshining it at the price when I decided to purchase it approximately 1.5 years after it was released.

There are always new models out but rarely do you get something a leap over what came before in the same price range, especially at sub-USD$300 like this.

Portable recording (and playback) done well is much harder to get right. Just like making a good instrument versus an average one. After using the PCM-M10, like earmonger mentioned, my wish list is pretty small.

It's the competition that must play catch-up at this price point from what I can tell. Improvement in multiple areas to make it worth buying over something else.

I'd be very surprised the competition does most things better in 3-6 months let alone 2 years at the price in a unit of this size or less. To me it's the clear leader in this price range. Yes, you still might get one or two great things in the competition, but over-all, it's the leader. My wants are a good balance of both Recording and Playback (Walkman-style), so again this wins (even though it doesn't go to the level of MiniDisc for Playback modes and other things just yet).

A guilty pleasure of mine is making far more use of Key Control than any sane person should, though. I'm hooked to the point where I don't want to buy anything without it (and this is quite apart from Sony's audio and design expertise making this a very fine unit).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on January 17, 2010, 06:23:34 AM
the r-09 created pops during the recoring if levels were changed. its even stated in the manual.
Some of these all-in-one-codec-IC-recorders have DC offsets audible in recordings (also known as 'zipper noise' noticed during REC level adjustments.  It seems most manufacturers (maybe not Sony) doing component and production quality checks are not testing or rejecting DC shifts due to deck digital (stepped) gain changes; an all DC coupled process operating inside these codec ICs. 

In the past, before extensive use of the all-inside-one codec recorder implementation, things were done using separated IC components maybe using capacitors between some processing circuits. So any DC errors were noticed, and if there at all, less easily passed/or designed to be more controlled to not cause these noise issues.

So you buy a super small/low costing flash recorder model finding offsets making noise with level adjustments.  Some of the same model are noiseless.  And some models never have such issues due to using superior codec ICs or simply rejecting those IC QA tested with too much DC offset issues.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 17, 2010, 07:55:35 AM
To be honest, if i had to lower levels urgently, I'd rather have a clean stepdown rather than gaps or pops in the recording. The M10 does not seem to produce any artifact noises in level adjustments.

Still, the disadvantage remains the manual handling noise one produces manually if one needs to adjust the knob. To be honest, I anticipate with glee the moment when the knob loosens up a bit so that handling noises are rediced.

Today I recorded singing here and there in different chapels and results are pretty satisfactory to excellent . Low sens at 5 level picks up nicley almost at -12db leaving enough headroom for sudden high notes. Noise is extremly low. Note Normalizing a recording at low sens 5 level and same recorded source at High sens level 5 would result in same background noise (which is minimal). The advantage is better headroom in using low sens.

As for stereo separation- im really not a technical person, but the recordings have presence. footsteps moving across from left to right are felt very vividly. Laugh at my comparison, but its the best i can describe. I won't say that left from right is seperated like a hot knife through butter, but the ambience is realistic. The slight disadvantage i see is the response to boomy echo (see below).

People keep saying that the internal mics are quite. I guess it also means the internal preamp is quite too. If I find omnis that have equally low noise and sensitivity as the m10 internal mics for quite performances like chapel singing etc, i'll be more than pleased to add them mic-in, also because the m10 internal mics have a slightly less then excellent response to boomy effect of chapels/halls/organs etc. (This also depends on playback software/hardware.) The low cut filter is there, and it does remove the rumble, but one is always weary to use a low cut filter in recording i guess.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 18, 2010, 08:19:20 AM
I think one of the main issue ith the m10 is the handling noise to tunrn the level knob.  The m10 doesnt create noise in turning up/down internally but the handling noise is picked up.

I just decided to give mine a try and I got NO handling noise at all from turning the record wheel. Just hold the recorder tightly in one hand so you don't create handling noise with that hand and try to turn the wheel with your thumb and forefinger without touching much else with that hand. Tried it a bunch of times and never got any handling noise at all. In contrast, the R-09HR and R-09 create noise in your recording whenever you change the record level even if you are using external mics and even if you can eliminate handling noise.

Another advantage for the M10.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 18, 2010, 08:30:39 AM
yes it's really a matter of .....fingering it well....(sorry i had to), however in stealth it isn't that easy. again, since using external mics, the recorder will not be in bag/pouch, having the level knob looser would help to finger it better (there i go again).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tardis71 on January 18, 2010, 09:30:38 AM
I recorded a show this weekend at a local bar/club and had my M10 on a table about 15 feet in front of the right PA stack and it came out great!! I moved it a few times and adjusted the levels once. No handing noise that I could tell. Music was very loud, but even tho me and a date were talking a bit...you couldn't hear us unless you knew exactly were we were talking. As a grab and go recorder. This puppy is impressive for sure! Still waiting on my CA14s but even with just the internal mics it makes great sounding recordings. Transfer time is low too, 1hour 45min show only took 5min to go from m10 to the computer.
Also I think it will be a long time before the level wheel wears out or becomes loose. You just don't use it that much...you pretty much have it set at 4-5 and then only have to go up or down a bit to set levels...it's not like you're swirling it every 5mins or anything.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 18, 2010, 09:36:23 AM
front of the right PA stack and it came out great!! I moved it a few times and adjusted the levels once. No handing noise that I could tell. Music was very loud, but even tho me and a date were talking a bit...you couldn't hear us

well thats not exactly a chapel situation i was describing :-) where handling is bound to be heard. If i had to find the ideal level setting knob design, I would choose the MT- on the front panel and digitally noisless. It as comfortable as comfortable can be.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on January 18, 2010, 09:48:02 AM
I've had my eyes on the PCM-10, just not gotten around to order it yet (I haven't found it for sale where I am, so I have to go through the hassle of ordering from overseas). Then someone suggested I go for a Zoom H4N instead.

There's been a lot of comparison here between the M10 and Edirol's R-09HR, but no mention of the Zoom. How does the PCM-M10 compare to the Zoom H4N?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: shaggy on January 18, 2010, 10:06:59 AM
Has anyone done any direct comparison to the PCM-D50 line in?  Also, I am not sure if this was mentioned, the limiter feature where it records a track at -20dB below the set levels, is that a feature with the M10?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 18, 2010, 10:18:47 AM
The limiter is different on the M10. Not as sophisticated, but does seem to prevent bad sounding clipping if you don't go over 0 dB by more than -12 dB.

For 24 bit recording, having a limiter is not that important because you can aim to have your levels peak around -12 dB or so.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 18, 2010, 11:31:22 AM

There's been a lot of comparison here between the M10 and Edirol's R-09HR, but no mention of the Zoom. How does the PCM-M10 compare to the Zoom H4N?

The Zoom is much bigger and has shorter battery life. But it does have XLR inputs and phantom power, and does surround-sound recording, not just stereo.

http://reviews.cnet.com/portable-audio-devices/zoom-h4n/4505-6450_7-33483153.html

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/zoom-h4n-review.html

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 18, 2010, 11:47:52 AM
The Zoom ......does have XLR inputs and phantom power, and does surround-sound recording, not just stereo.
But if these things are not important to you, I'm sure that either the HR or M10 would be a far better choice for field recording.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on January 18, 2010, 01:25:48 PM
In contrast, the R-09HR and R-09 create noise in your recording whenever you change the record level even if you are using external mics and even if you can eliminate handling noise.

I've never experienced that problem with my r09.  Though I usually prefer to use a preamp and make the gain changes on the front end.   And even then, I tend to make any gain changes between songs.  Otherwise post-process mid-song leveling is a hassle.

Needing to lock the knob with tape, and the inability to set the recorder gain exactly, are negatives for how I use a recorder.  I'm not sure what they were thinking in putting a knob on a "pocket" recorder.  Does the display show the gain setting as the knob is adjusted?

I'd really like to hear a v3 > m10 vs. v3 > microtrack comp on some bass intensive material.  I posted those comps in the past with the r09, and the r09 was generally preferred over the v3 a/d.

Regarding the earlier discussion about the lifespan of these recorders being short due to the advance of technology, I disagree.   You don't see 722 owners hoping for the next advance in tech.  The only thing I want beyond the r09 is even better sound quality; an a/d that is closer to the 722, and the 722's 25DbFS signal handling.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: bgalizio on January 18, 2010, 01:49:45 PM
In contrast, the R-09HR and R-09 create noise in your recording whenever you change the record level even if you are using external mics and even if you can eliminate handling noise.

I've never experienced that problem with my r09.  Though I usually prefer to use a preamp and make the gain changes on the front end.   And even then, I tend to make any gain changes between songs.  Otherwise post-process mid-song leveling is a hassle.

I have never seen the gaps when changing volume on the R09 or R09HR. Like Freelunch, I try to change the level only between songs, or not at all, but I was not aware that this was an issue. Can anyone else confirm it? Is it tied to a specific firmware for either device?

The way I see it: the gain knob is a neg vs. the R09HR. The battery life is a plus. If the ADC is similar, and the ability to take a hot signal is also similar, then there is no reason for me to switch (price is now the same everywhere). For people looking to get either the M10 or the R09HR, it looks like a toss-up depending on what features are important to you.

If anyone has both the R09HR and M10, I would love to hear a line-in sample comparison. Also, if anyone can confirm which recorder can take a hotter signal (without distortion, digital attenuation, etc.), that would be very helpful.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 18, 2010, 02:12:10 PM
I have never seen the gaps when changing volume on the R09 or R09HR. Like Freelunch, I try to change the level only between songs, or not at all, but I was not aware that this was an issue. Can anyone else confirm it? Is it tied to a specific firmware for either device?

I guess it's not a big issue in practice, since we all try to change levels between songs. I never noticed it with my R-09 either but noticed it the first time out with the HR.

You don't need to rely on anyone else to confirm. It's easy to test it for yourself. Just record your own voice with the internals, then check out the wave file in an audio editor by zooming in on the part where you changed levels. It happens with the externals also, so test for that as well if you want to be sure. I have the latest firmware in both my R-09 & R-09HR. I can't remember if the R-09 actually left gaps, but it did make noise. The HR definitely left tiny gaps. You have to zoom way in to see them, but you can definitely hear the problem.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: bgalizio on January 18, 2010, 02:48:36 PM
I have never seen the gaps when changing volume on the R09 or R09HR. Like Freelunch, I try to change the level only between songs, or not at all, but I was not aware that this was an issue. Can anyone else confirm it? Is it tied to a specific firmware for either device?

I guess it's not a big issue in practice, since we all try to change levels between songs. I never noticed it with my R-09 either but noticed it the first time out with the HR.

You don't need to rely on anyone else to confirm. It's easy to test it for yourself. Just record your own voice with the internals, then check out the wave file in an audio editor by zooming in on the part where you changed levels. It happens with the externals also, so test for that as well if you want to be sure. I have the latest firmware in both my R-09 & R-09HR. I can't remember if the R-09 actually left gaps, but it did make noise. The HR definitely left tiny gaps. You have to zoom way in to see them, but you can definitely hear the problem.

Understandable. I think we do need it confirmed, though, as I have never seen an issue with my recordings.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: page on January 18, 2010, 02:52:37 PM
I have never seen the gaps when changing volume on the R09 or R09HR. Like Freelunch, I try to change the level only between songs, or not at all, but I was not aware that this was an issue. Can anyone else confirm it? Is it tied to a specific firmware for either device?

I guess it's not a big issue in practice, since we all try to change levels between songs. I never noticed it with my R-09 either but noticed it the first time out with the HR.

You don't need to rely on anyone else to confirm. It's easy to test it for yourself. Just record your own voice with the internals, then check out the wave file in an audio editor by zooming in on the part where you changed levels. It happens with the externals also, so test for that as well if you want to be sure. I have the latest firmware in both my R-09 & R-09HR. I can't remember if the R-09 actually left gaps, but it did make noise. The HR definitely left tiny gaps. You have to zoom way in to see them, but you can definitely hear the problem.

Understandable. I think we do need it confirmed, though, as I have never seen an issue with my recordings.

I think his point is just that anyone with a unit can verify it, it's not like you need load resistors or something out of the ordinary. You could send a loud sign wave and adjust the volume on it so that you have constant signal. Generate one in Audacity and send it out to the recorder.

The R-44 does it as well (someone reported it in the second thread for that recorder), I wonder if they are using similar components.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 18, 2010, 03:09:22 PM
I think his point is just that anyone with a unit can verify it, it's not like you need load resistors or something out of the ordinary.
Correct! Plus I wouldn't want to ask someone else to do it for me when it was so easy to test for it myself and be able to see & hear the results first hand.

Obviously not an issue at all for someone who leaves the recorder at unity gain and changes levels with a preamp, as I usually do. However, the first time I used my HR, I was doing acoustic and wanted a bit more gain the my littlebox could provide. So I goosed up the levels during the piano into and that's how I noticed the issue. Normally I'd have waited until the first song was done to change levels, but I had a backup recorder running and just went ahead with the change.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: bgalizio on January 18, 2010, 05:01:17 PM
I think his point is just that anyone with a unit can verify it, it's not like you need load resistors or something out of the ordinary.
Correct! Plus I wouldn't want to ask someone else to do it for me when it was so easy to test for it myself and be able to see & hear the results first hand.

Obviously not an issue at all for someone who leaves the recorder at unity gain and changes levels with a preamp, as I usually do. However, the first time I used my HR, I was doing acoustic and wanted a bit more gain the my littlebox could provide. So I goosed up the levels during the piano into and that's how I noticed the issue. Normally I'd have waited until the first song was done to change levels, but I had a backup recorder running and just went ahead with the change.

I understand. My point is that it isn't a problem for me. I have not seen this issue. I have also not heard of it until this thread. So, I wanted to know if it is a widespread problem, or unique to your unit/firmware/whatever. If other people test or claim one way or another, we will see.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 18, 2010, 05:31:49 PM
For what it's worth, I have an R09 and just tried raising and lowering the input volume with white noise (city traffic) and heard no clicks or pops.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 18, 2010, 06:01:24 PM
I stand corrected as to the R-09. I just tested again and couldn't hear a problem. The manual warns of a problem, but if there is one, it seems to be negligible.

The R-09HR, however, sounds awful where you are changing the gain. You can just record your voice with the built ins and hear how bad it sounds. Not a problem in practice ffor me, though, as I usually change gain with a pre and leave the HR at unity gain.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 19, 2010, 12:40:32 AM
The point is simple. People keep using blanket terms when in truth everyone is indicating different situations.

The R-09 makes pops when adjusting levels. Its on the manual and you can hear it if you record a bit of quite music or amient and push up levels. I owned an r-09. Usually it is negligagle because usually one is recording something not dead air. If one is recording ambient noises and normalizing the pops can be heard. So it depends on what youre doing with it. So a blanket phrases like "its negligable"  or its not there are not appropriate.

The R-09HR apparently produces something similar. I havnt owned one.

The M10 which is the subject of this thread produces no digi noise BUT
1) you're bound to produce handling noise. Its manual adjustment. If you manage to do it without noise, then you are a spirit. The hollow grey case around the screen makes a loud abrasive noise by itself when you touch it. A strip of thin smooth adhesive tape reduced the noise by 80%.

2) the knob itself on the inside touches against the level adjustment knob cover on the inside. That causes a swoshing noise half an inch from the mic. Dont say its not there or it "negligable" or "keep levels the same" or "use a pre" or "10 feet away from the stacks wil cover it".  i know.. we all know. Specifically in quite recordings when one requires to adjust, it can be heard.  I am specifically writing about quite performances. I wish they didnt put that cover on the knob. A solution i see is to open the m10 and file beneath the arch cover beneath the knob or cut off that arch altogether. there simply isnt space to handle the knob. Its logic. everone owned a radio some time or another. knobs are usually fre to rotate not enclosed snuggly in casing especially if they are 1/2" from the mics.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 19, 2010, 04:30:57 AM
No use arguing. I do hear it on ambient recordings now, but I never make them so never think in that direction.

By the way, the HR produces a much worse noise than the R-09. It sounds awful no matter what you're recording.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on January 19, 2010, 12:48:04 PM
I must say that I really resent the current trend for recording devices with integral mics. I can only regard them as space-occupying, budget-sapping near-irrelevant add-ons.

And that's not to mention the flurry of sub-standard recordings they encourage, stealthed from someone's shirt pocket...

M10 minus internal mics plus digital-in = my current ideal.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: aryolkary on January 19, 2010, 12:57:54 PM
That is really not a considered attitude. Tons of users find them not only usable but necessary. Internal mics aren't the reason for the lack of digital input. It is common for people to only consider their own use, specially in specific related forums.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 19, 2010, 01:03:16 PM
To be honest, I consider the M10 to be the FIRST recorder good for shows using internal mics. I never liked the recent r-09/HR or zoom uploads.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 19, 2010, 01:11:14 PM
To be honest, I consider the M10 to be the FIRST recorder good for shows using internal mics. I never liked the recent r-09/HR or zoom uploads.

Here's where we totally agree. The R-09's internals suck for music and the M10's are great. I'll probably never plan on using it for that, but it'll do great if you need it to. Only problem with internals for a low profile concert is where to put the recorder so the sound doesn't get muffled and of course a lack of stereo separation (which I don't care all that much about if the sound is good).

I almost got to use the internals for an impromptu jam session last week but 2 of the band members got pissed off at each other and it never came off. I packed the M-10 & a little tripod just in case and it almost came in handy.

The only other good option, IMO is the R-09 Micsketeer mod, which also sounds great and gives you a choice of card or omni caps. It wouldn't be nearly as good for low noise stuff (think R-09 + CA-11's without a preamp) but probably would be better for ear crushingly loud stuff. The M10 is rated to go up to 124 dB, which is great, but the Micskteer will go way over that (think next to the stacks at a metal show). 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pool on January 19, 2010, 01:41:11 PM
the only thing i can disagree on is staying close to the stacks :-) while i do not wish it on anyone in any possible way, life can change within the space of a one hour show. those who get hurt dont speak about it much after. believe me and take care.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on January 19, 2010, 01:47:39 PM
We agree here as well. I never stack tape and generally bring ear plugs to loud shows.

I just meant that the Micsketeer would be better at that for people who want to do it. I don't think stack tapes sound too good anyway, but may be the lesser of 2 evils at shows with extremely talkative crowds.

Once I forgot my earplugs to a Link Wray show in 2003. I made some out of candle wax and napkins I got from the table we were seated at and they worked amazingly well.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on January 19, 2010, 01:56:31 PM
That is really not a considered attitude. Tons of users find them not only usable but necessary. Internal mics aren't the reason for the lack of digital input. It is common for people to only consider their own use, specially in specific related forums.

???

I have no idea what a 'considered attitude' is... And I don't quite understand your link between digital inputs and internal mics...

I really cannot imagine why internal mics would ever be necessary apart from for people conducting interviews and wanting unfettered portability or in situations where external mics have failed/been forgotten.

For me, the internal configurations on these budget recorders really seem to be too fraught with compromises to be considered a decent option: (presumably) cheap mics, which are generally omnis, minimally spaced and in direct contact with the recorder and thus likely to be subject to handling noise. Plus the fact that your placement options are highly likely to be limited by the fact that mics and recorder are effectively one unit.

I think a big difficulty is that these 24 bit recorders seem to make people think that they are a one-stop solution for high quality recording. Which is not to say that it's impossible to make a listenable recording with internals, just that I suspect that a cheaper recorder plus relatively cheap external mics + a bit of thought could easily give a much better recording.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ehren on January 19, 2010, 03:48:56 PM
That is really not a considered attitude. Tons of users find them not only usable but necessary. Internal mics aren't the reason for the lack of digital input. It is common for people to only consider their own use, specially in specific related forums.

???

I have no idea what a 'considered attitude' is... And I don't quite understand your link between digital inputs and internal mics...

I really cannot imagine why internal mics would ever be necessary apart from for people conducting interviews and wanting unfettered portability or in situations where external mics have failed/been forgotten.

For me, the internal configurations on these budget recorders really seem to be too fraught with compromises to be considered a decent option: (presumably) cheap mics, which are generally omnis, minimally spaced and in direct contact with the recorder and thus likely to be subject to handling noise. Plus the fact that your placement options are highly likely to be limited by the fact that mics and recorder are effectively one unit.

I think a big difficulty is that these 24 bit recorders seem to make people think that they are a one-stop solution for high quality recording. Which is not to say that it's impossible to make a listenable recording with internals, just that I suspect that a cheaper recorder plus relatively cheap external mics + a bit of thought could easily give a much better recording.

How many recordings have you made with the internal mics of the Sony M10?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on January 19, 2010, 04:35:25 PM
How many recordings have you made with the internal mics of the Sony M10?

Not one. But unless Sony have managed to alter the laws of physics that pertain to stereo imaging and sound waves' travel through air, I suspect that the internal mics are going to represent a hefty compromise.

But aside from that, surely the option of being able to run your mics at (or above) head height while still being able to monitor/alter levels makes external mics a no-brainer?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: page on January 19, 2010, 05:02:47 PM
I find it quietly promising for the M10 that on TS.com (which is a big user base that primarily uses external mics) the biggest conversation debate we seem to be having is over the attached mics compared to some discussions about recorders which have power issues, or bad gain stages, or any number of other problems.

That's quietly impressive to me.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on January 19, 2010, 05:14:31 PM
That's quietly impressive to me.

Early days yet... ;)

From what I've heard, the M10 does seem to be getting very close to the stealth ideal and pending any horror stories I'll be keen to pick one up.

Then again, it seems like problems can sometimes take a good while to become apparent...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on January 19, 2010, 05:17:29 PM
I find it quietly promising for the M10 that on TS.com (which is a big user base that primarily uses external mics) the biggest conversation debate we seem to be having is over the attached mics compared to some discussions about recorders which have power issues, or bad gain stages, or any number of other problems.

That's quietly impressive to me.

Until someone actually produces a comp on audio quality, it's all just hype to me ;)

The rumor I've heard is that the m10 has weak bass response.  We've yet to hear how well it handles intense bass at high signal levels, among other things.

Do any m10 owners have access to a v3?  That's the ideal comp platform; comparing the m10 source to the a/d in the v3.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: darktrain on January 19, 2010, 05:20:31 PM
Its a great unit, thats all there is to say, it has everything you really need in small handheld and IMO is superior to any other handheld made to date, those that are digging to find reason not to get it are just missing the boat on this one. But i guess thats why TS is here. I got a question for all those that "need" a digi connection.......WHY is that a big deal, i have been on this board for a while now and always hear "no digi" in is a deal breaker, or they missed on that but i don't think i have ever read why anyone really needs it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on January 19, 2010, 05:32:07 PM
those that are digging to find reason not to get it are just missing the boat on this one.

I got a question for all those that "need" a digi connection.......WHY is that a big deal, i have been on this board for a while now and always hear "no digi" in is a deal breaker, or they missed on that but i don't think i have ever read why anyone really needs it.

I'm not sure if it's 'digging to find a reason' but I think that money is tight for most at the moment... I've always felt that the best return for money invested in a rig comes with that invested in the mics so I'm always wary of spending elsewhere for what might be a minimal return. Plus, TS is littered with stories of gear that didn't live up to initial promise (or indeed initial user reports), the R-09HR rec level issue being the most recent.

As for the digi-in issue, surely it's simply so that a preferred ADC can be used? Personally, I'd want it for my UA-5 so I could use the one box as phantom supply and pre-amp (and have the option of quick and dirty matrices). Plus I'd be wanting to use it (the digital input) for digital transfers of old DATs.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ehren on January 19, 2010, 05:32:25 PM
How many recordings have you made with the internal mics of the Sony M10?

Not one. But unless Sony have managed to alter the laws of physics that pertain to stereo imaging and sound waves' travel through air, I suspect that the internal mics are going to represent a hefty compromise.

But aside from that, surely the option of being able to run your mics at (or above) head height while still being able to monitor/alter levels makes external mics a no-brainer?

I agree with you completely, but I don't think the internal mics take anything away from the M10. I recorded a loud rock band with the internals just for kicks and it came out SURPRISINGLY good. I'll never use the internals for a serious taping situation, but they sound pretty darn good all on their own. Of course the image is zilch, but the box itself offers a lot of quality.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: page on January 19, 2010, 05:35:51 PM
Then again, it seems like problems can sometimes take a good while to become apparent...

Right, there are some age-related problems that we don't pick up on till later. Plus, there were some tests that we didn't think about doing till we found the problems elsewhere. So as time goes on, we start testing new gear with more tests (like the dropped samples during volume changes, who was checking that 5 years ago?). Some of the issues with the korg mr-1 (in the power area) weren't discovered until later, but we have a better idea of what "might" be wrong and can start looking at testing that earlier if we want to.

I find it quietly promising for the M10 that on TS.com (which is a big user base that primarily uses external mics) the biggest conversation debate we seem to be having is over the attached mics compared to some discussions about recorders which have power issues, or bad gain stages, or any number of other problems.

That's quietly impressive to me.

Until someone actually produces a comp on audio quality, it's all just hype to me
;)

The rumor I've heard is that the m10 has weak bass response.  We've yet to hear how well it handles intense bass at high signal levels, among other things.

Do any m10 owners have access to a v3?  That's the ideal comp platform; comparing the m10 source to the a/d in the v3.

1) I agree, until we comp stuff in a reasonable manner, the best we get is perceptions.
2) The V3 or SD7 series are great platforms since they are readily available and fairly well known.

Its a great unit, thats all there is to say, it has everything you really need in small handheld and IMO is superior to any other handheld made to date, those that are digging to find reason not to get it are just missing the boat on this one. But i guess thats why TS is here. I got a question for all those that "need" a digi connection.......WHY is that a big deal, i have been on this board for a while now and always hear "no digi" in is a deal breaker, or they missed on that but i don't think i have ever read why anyone really needs it.

Realistically, it's not for me personally. I think we as a community have become conditioned to think cheap units are "get what you pay for" when compared to Nagras or 7xx units. I'd like a digi-in, as there are occasions when I use one (like patching or transfers), but it's not a deal breaker when you look at other things that can go wrong.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on January 19, 2010, 05:42:28 PM
I agree with you completely, but I don't think the internal mics take anything away from the M10. I recorded a loud rock band with the internals just for kicks and it came out SURPRISINGLY good. I'll never use the internals for a serious taping situation, but they sound pretty darn good all on their own. Of course the image is zilch, but the box itself offers a lot of quality.

It seems that the M10's internals are impressing everyone and I suppose that has to be a good thing. Plus I must admit to have been very pleased to have internal mics on my R-09 when I've wanted to quickly record my baby daughter's various gurgles and giggles over the last few weeks.

I think what provoked my original comment was a couple of rather lacklustre recordings on Dime where I ended up thinking that if the recorder didn't have internals, the taper would probably have picked up a set of Church mics and got a pretty nice tape instead...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ehren on January 19, 2010, 05:53:56 PM
I agree with you completely, but I don't think the internal mics take anything away from the M10. I recorded a loud rock band with the internals just for kicks and it came out SURPRISINGLY good. I'll never use the internals for a serious taping situation, but they sound pretty darn good all on their own. Of course the image is zilch, but the box itself offers a lot of quality.

It seems that the M10's internals are impressing everyone and I suppose that has to be a good thing. Plus I must admit to have been very pleased to have internal mics on my R-09 when I've wanted to quickly record my baby daughter's various gurgles and giggles over the last few weeks.

I think what provoked my original comment was a couple of rather lacklustre recordings on Dime where I ended up thinking that if the recorder didn't have internals, the taper would probably have picked up a set of Church mics and got a pretty nice tape instead...

Well, yes, I think the Church mics perform as well as mics costing thousands more in some instances; they are possibly the ultimate deal in concert taping history. That said, if someone can't educate themselves on how to properly record a concert we can hardly hold Sony responsible. (I know that isn't exactly what YOU said, just trying to make a point.) The M10 is a sexy piece of gear, it feels a lot like the old M1 to me, and that's a good thing IMO.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on January 19, 2010, 06:08:38 PM
possibly the ultimate deal in concert taping history.

Maybe Chris could have that embossed onto the side of all his gear...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Todd R on January 19, 2010, 06:10:22 PM
Its a great unit, thats all there is to say, it has everything you really need in small handheld and IMO is superior to any other handheld made to date, those that are digging to find reason not to get it are just missing the boat on this one. But i guess thats why TS is here. I got a question for all those that "need" a digi connection.......WHY is that a big deal, i have been on this board for a while now and always hear "no digi" in is a deal breaker, or they missed on that but i don't think i have ever read why anyone really needs it.

I still feel like I want a digi-in on a recorder, but it isn't as big a necessity as it had been for me.  In my case though, up until recently, I owned a V3 which I had for ~7 years.  The V3 is a very nice piece of gear with a A/D stage that I personally like.  If a cheap recorder that could be had that was reliable, bit perfect, and took a digital input, it wouldn't matter to me if they made it with crappy analog stages since I could avoid them and use the V3. 

Now I don't have the V3, but I still do use my Sony D50 to transfer DATs.  So I still am using the digital input of a recorder.  But since I no longer use the V3 and since I still will probably have at least one digi-in recorder (I now have the D50 and the R44), the digital input isn't as important as it once was.  That said, it gets to what Freelunch said -- we need to do some testing and comps to be sure the analog stage sounds good.  I'd be optimistic about the m10, since I like the analog stage of the D50.

So short answer -- having digi-in is good for doing DAT transfers, and also allows a taper to spend the big money on an external pre/AD and not worry about the quality of the analog stage of the recorder.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ehren on January 19, 2010, 09:22:24 PM
Its a great unit, thats all there is to say, it has everything you really need in small handheld and IMO is superior to any other handheld made to date, those that are digging to find reason not to get it are just missing the boat on this one. But i guess thats why TS is here. I got a question for all those that "need" a digi connection.......WHY is that a big deal, i have been on this board for a while now and always hear "no digi" in is a deal breaker, or they missed on that but i don't think i have ever read why anyone really needs it.

I still feel like I want a digi-in on a recorder, but it isn't as big a necessity as it had been for me.  In my case though, up until recently, I owned a V3 which I had for ~7 years.  The V3 is a very nice piece of gear with a A/D stage that I personally like.  If a cheap recorder that could be had that was reliable, bit perfect, and took a digital input, it wouldn't matter to me if they made it with crappy analog stages since I could avoid them and use the V3. 

Now I don't have the V3, but I still do use my Sony D50 to transfer DATs.  So I still am using the digital input of a recorder.  But since I no longer use the V3 and since I still will probably have at least one digi-in recorder (I now have the D50 and the R44), the digital input isn't as important as it once was.  That said, it gets to what Freelunch said -- we need to do some testing and comps to be sure the analog stage sounds good.  I'd be optimistic about the m10, since I like the analog stage of the D50.

So short answer -- having digi-in is good for doing DAT transfers, and also allows a taper to spend the big money on an external pre/AD and not worry about the quality of the analog stage of the recorder.


Well Todd, my Littlebox is on it's way, it will be interesting to hear how the Littlebox>M10 sounds. I'll be taping NMAS and Govt' Mule next month.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: page on January 19, 2010, 10:22:08 PM
Its a great unit, thats all there is to say, it has everything you really need in small handheld and IMO is superior to any other handheld made to date, those that are digging to find reason not to get it are just missing the boat on this one. But i guess thats why TS is here. I got a question for all those that "need" a digi connection.......WHY is that a big deal, i have been on this board for a while now and always hear "no digi" in is a deal breaker, or they missed on that but i don't think i have ever read why anyone really needs it.

I still feel like I want a digi-in on a recorder, but it isn't as big a necessity as it had been for me.  In my case though, up until recently, I owned a V3 which I had for ~7 years.  The V3 is a very nice piece of gear with a A/D stage that I personally like.  If a cheap recorder that could be had that was reliable, bit perfect, and took a digital input, it wouldn't matter to me if they made it with crappy analog stages since I could avoid them and use the V3. 

Now I don't have the V3, but I still do use my Sony D50 to transfer DATs.  So I still am using the digital input of a recorder.  But since I no longer use the V3 and since I still will probably have at least one digi-in recorder (I now have the D50 and the R44), the digital input isn't as important as it once was.  That said, it gets to what Freelunch said -- we need to do some testing and comps to be sure the analog stage sounds good.  I'd be optimistic about the m10, since I like the analog stage of the D50.

So short answer -- having digi-in is good for doing DAT transfers, and also allows a taper to spend the big money on an external pre/AD and not worry about the quality of the analog stage of the recorder.


Well Todd, my Littlebox is on it's way, it will be interesting to hear how the Littlebox>M10 sounds. I'll be taping NMAS and Govt' Mule next month.

This is ultimately my plan. If I were going to augment my 722 (cause I'm not going to get rid of it, thats blasphemy), this is what I'd do, hence why I'm paying attention to both products...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Todd R on January 19, 2010, 10:42:47 PM

Well Todd, my Littlebox is on it's way, it will be interesting to hear how the Littlebox>M10 sounds. I'll be taping NMAS and Govt' Mule next month.

Excellent! :coolguy:  I'll be interested how that sounds, LB> Sony D50 is my one of my 2ch recording options I've been using a lot and I really like it.

Does your littlebox have an 1/8" out and RCA outs?  If so, we could run a comparison of the M1 and D50 line inputs by using those two outs on your LB. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Todd R on January 19, 2010, 10:54:51 PM
This is ultimately my plan. If I were going to augment my 722 (cause I'm not going to get rid of it, thats blasphemy), this is what I'd do, hence why I'm paying attention to both products...

I understand the feeling of blasphemy.  I did it though, and also took the blasphemous step of selling my beloved V3 as well.  From the money from the sale of my SD box and my V3 (and after much gear buying and selling), I finally landed a PSP2, an Oade R44, a littlebox, and a pair of gefell m210 hypers.  Though I often miss both my SD and V3, having a 4ch recorder, 2 preamps, and one of the best pair of hypers out there was a pretty good tradeoff.

Anyway, that's the great thing about the littlebox -- at its pricepoint, you don't have to sell your favorite gear to get one.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Jamos on January 20, 2010, 12:00:49 AM
Between the D50 & the M10, it should cover everyone's needs...

If you need a digi-in (and still like to have a reliable, clean analog in), get a D50
If you don't need a digi-in, go for the M10

I wonder if they'll eventually alter the D50...?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ehren on January 20, 2010, 10:33:11 AM

Well Todd, my Littlebox is on it's way, it will be interesting to hear how the Littlebox>M10 sounds. I'll be taping NMAS and Govt' Mule next month.

Excellent! :coolguy:  I'll be interested how that sounds, LB> Sony D50 is my one of my 2ch recording options I've been using a lot and I really like it.

Does your littlebox have an 1/8" out and RCA outs?  If so, we could run a comparison of the M1 and D50 line inputs by using those two outs on your LB.

Yes, my Littlebox does have 1/8" our and RCA outs. Lets do that comp!!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on January 23, 2010, 10:10:47 AM
Trying to decide between Micro-SD or M2 Memory Stick...
Micro-SD cards are cheaper as someone has pointed out earlier here, but do they work in the same way as Mini-SD cards, meaning there are adapters available, so they'll physically fit as standard SD cards in a card reader?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: flintstone on January 23, 2010, 11:46:39 AM
Most MicroSD cards are packaged with an SD card adapter.  It's easy to insert the MicroSD card into the adapter, and then plug the combination into a standard USB card reader or an SD slot in your computer. 

Alternatively, leave the MicroSD card installed in the M10, and use the USB cable included with the recorder to link the M10 to computer.

The MicroSD slot in the M10 is different than the MicroSD slot in a cell phone.  Push the MicroSD card into the spring-loaded slot in the M10 to insert it.  Push again to unlock the card.  The spring in the slot will push the card out to the point where you can grab it. 

MicroSD cards cost about $10 for 4GB, $20 for 8GB, and $50 for 16GB.  I'd look for a card that has class 6 speed and a lifetime warranty.  You don't need class 6 speed for audio recording, but it does transfer files faster, and you may wish to use the card in a video recorder sometime.

Flintstone
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: mloewen on January 23, 2010, 11:49:19 AM
Yes there are many different adapters for the micro sd cards do a search on ebay for them.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: su6oxone on January 23, 2010, 12:06:13 PM
Trying to decide between Micro-SD or M2 Memory Stick...

If you can use either, I can't think of any reason to get the M2 over a micro-SD.  I have an M2 for my PSP and it costs significantly more than a comparable micro-SD. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 23, 2010, 09:39:23 PM
And learn from my mistake. The microSD card has to be inserted with its label--the brand name and capacity--facing the back back of the PCM-M10.

It will snap in facing the front, but the PCM-M10 won't read it. This caused me considerable angst until I looked at the manual, and the graphic on the back of the PCM-M10.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pafnuzzi on January 24, 2010, 02:07:53 PM
Maybe it was posted already but anyway here is my question:

How much power does the M10 gives out to external mics on the mic in?

Thanks pafnuzzi
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: illconditioned on January 24, 2010, 03:04:51 PM
Maybe it was posted already but anyway here is my question:

How much power does the M10 gives out to external mics on the mic in?

Thanks pafnuzzi
2.8v through a 4.7k resistor.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pafnuzzi on January 24, 2010, 04:55:39 PM
Hi

Thanks but what means through the resistor. You mean the the 4.7k mod in the mic?

pafnuzzi
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: TaperedMind on January 29, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
Any help appreciated on either of 2 questions:

1) does microSD card class matter recording on M10?  Is class 2 HC OK, or should you use a higher class?

2) re LCF low cut filter on the M10.  When it is on does it filter BEFORE the mic pre-amp?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on January 30, 2010, 12:20:59 PM
I'm having zero problems with a SanDisk Class 2 8MB card.

I'd be curious, too, about the answer to your second question--maybe you could ask Sony?

I will say that this preamp is way more robust about bass than, for instance, Sony's minidisc preamps. I've recorded rock shows with Mic-in (at Low Sensitivity) without overload,  though with a fairly low-sensitivity mic. And the built-in mics are supposed to be good to 124dB, which bears out my experience recording a band rehearsal with them.

High sensitivity does distort, and I do still bring the battery box and go line-in when I can.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: shaggy on January 30, 2010, 07:16:18 PM
If isn't too much trouble for an owner with both units, do a line-in comp between a D50 and a M10 with with a good clean signal from a few commercial sourced CDs, please?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: TaperedMind on January 30, 2010, 07:56:59 PM
   Many thanks, earmonger.  That's really valuable to know.
 
How do you decide between low-sensitivity and line-in?  My recordings at high OR low always sound soft to me.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: dbxp on February 01, 2010, 01:24:16 AM
Continued to be impressed by the clarity and quality of the casual non-professional recordings made by M10 with just the internal mic. The same piece as I posted a while ago but played on a more percussive Yamaha C-2 piano captured with detailed texture of the instrument in my view:

http://www.box.net/shared/46eix227ex
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on February 01, 2010, 02:38:48 AM
Continued to be impressed by the clarity and quality of the casual non-professional recordings made by M10 with just the internal mic. The same piece as I posted a while ago but played on a more percussive Yamaha C-2 piano captured with detailed texture of the instrument in my view:

http://www.box.net/shared/46eix227ex
Sounds very good indeed!
I am curious about deck settings, mic-deck placement position, if raw or edited recording. 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: dbxp on February 01, 2010, 11:48:00 AM
No processing other than normalizing the -12 dB signal to 0 dB and converting 24 bit 48k sampling to 16 bit with sampling rate unchanged. The original 24 bit sounded even better to my ears but it's a too big a file for uploading.

The M10 placement actually was not ideal --- just sitting on the right hand music desk of the piano, pointing slightly inward. Had it been recorded from the side of the piano, it would have had more even notes in my experience, especially stronger bass, but the main task of the day was to take the piano lesson and it's a pre-lesson warm-up in a practice room.

Other than the M10, much credit is from the piano and the room. The room was acoustically optimized for the grand piano practice, actually almost a room built within a room. Vocals in these piano practice rooms of the conservatory actually sound like crap but they do have entirely different treatments for that purpose as well.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: kleiner Rainer on February 01, 2010, 05:40:34 PM
Howdy,

since I am curious by profession (electronics engineer), I connected my trusty Tektronix scope to the remote interface of my PCM-M10. This is what I found:

Connector:
 
4-pole 3.5mm plug
tip = cathode "Recording" LED in remote
ring 1 = data
ring 2 = ground
sleeve = +3V, anode "Recording" LED

data protocol:
 
Sony SIRC, unmodulated (i.e. lacking the 40kHz carrier),
Start bit + 20 data bits: 7 command bits, 5 device address bits, 8 extra bits (all LSB first)

The following commands are sent in the sequence "start bit - command bits - device address - extra bits":

TMARK: $48-$1A-$E4 (S-0001001-01011-00100111)
STOP:  $18-$1A-$E4 (S-0001100-01011-00100111)
PAUSE: $19-$1A-$E4 (S-1001100-01011-00100111)
REC:   $1D-$1A-$E4 (S-1011100-01011-00100111)

Interestingly, the device address is in the group for Blu-ray recorders, as listed on this page:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/sony/

The missing commands between "PAUSE" and "REC" are (at least in the Blu-ray recorders): $1A, "PLAY", $1B, "<<" and $1C, ">>".
Maybe they are implemented in the M10?

Since I cannot guarantee that my findings are 100% correct, proceed with caution and use the information presented here at your own risk.

Greetings,

Rainer
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 01, 2010, 05:55:14 PM
Quote
Continued to be impressed by the clarity and quality of the casual non-professional recordings made by M10 with just the internal mic. The same piece as I posted a while ago but played on a more percussive Yamaha C-2 piano captured with detailed texture of the instrument in my view:
Thanks for the sample.  Feeding it through my DAW software, I confirmed my suspicion that recordings from the M10 will very often benefit from stereo widening such as provided by the Voxengo MSED vst effect.  Adding an extra 6 to 8dB of width really brings the sound to life - IMHO - and in this sample it very clearly shows the alignment of the piano in relation to the recorder.  Curiously, it appears also to brighten the sound somewhat, as if reducing some HF phase cancellations from the close proximity of the omni mics to each other (wild guess there).

Sony would have done well to have provided a "width" option in the M10 menus, replicating electronically the function available in other models which have movable mics.  In terms of the processing required in the unit, it would have been very easy to do.  Normally I wouldn't recommend recording with an effect but in this case, any width manipulation can be reversed very simply later (unlike, for instance, recording with some sort of reverb).  Personally if I had an M10 (and I'm very tempted!) I would add about 6dB of width to all recordings, so it's a pity that can't be done at the outset.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: parhamm on February 02, 2010, 12:34:46 AM
Does anyone have experience using the PCM-M10 with a 64-bit Windows XP machine?

The manual says 64-bit XP is not supported... Does this mean the included SoundForge software won't work, or that you can't even connect the M10 via USB to simply download recorded files?

Any help with this issue will be much appreciated as I am deciding to buy an M10 or not... Thanks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: dbxp on February 02, 2010, 10:02:00 PM
While I can't vouch for the enclosed edition of SoundForge's 64-bit XP compatibility, for file transfers, M10 is simply treated as a USB drive and thus is OS agnostic. I usually transfer to Linux machines because that's what I use often. There is always Audacity that's very capable and free for all operating systems so it really shouldn't be a concern even if SoundForge doesn't work on your computer.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: gatorglenn on February 04, 2010, 02:51:11 PM
Continued to be impressed by the clarity and quality of the casual non-professional recordings made by M10 with just the internal mic. The same piece as I posted a while ago but played on a more percussive Yamaha C-2 piano captured with detailed texture of the instrument in my view:

http://www.box.net/shared/46eix227ex

That sounds pretty good. I found a good deal on a PCM-M10 and am going to order one. It seems to be good recorder for me to try out.

Thanks,
Glenn
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 04, 2010, 07:01:44 PM
I've widened the two piano files that DBXP posted.   What you hear is the original for 20 seconds, then the next 20 seconds is widened, the next 20 seconds original, and so forth.  In the widened bits the centre channel has been reduced by 2dB and the side channel gain increased by 4dB, making a total widening of 6dB.  I've used mp3 256kbps for ease of downloading.

What is most obvious is a hardening of the sound, though the increased left/right resolution should also be noticeable particularly in headphones.  I think what may be going on is that in maths terms, I've created a cardioid pair from the omnis, and you therefore lose some of the omni warmth.  However, it means that there's a solution for anyone having misgivings about the M10 omni mics and who hankers after the more conventional cardioid crossed pair sound.

It would be interesting to try this with something more in the way of an ambient recording - can anyone point me towards a link to a sample?

The processed files are here (the first is the piano recording first posted a couple of weeks back, the second is the one posted in the last few days) -

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/M10%20MS%201.mp3
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/M10%20MS%202.mp3
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: dbxp on February 04, 2010, 10:24:27 PM
Thanks for Ozpeter's stereo enhancement experiment. It's quite an eye (ear?) opener. Some notes that seemed to have some coloring of timber appeared to be helped as well. Those coloring were recording artefacts that were not obvious in the actual environment, possibly due to the non-ideal microphone placement.

The second piano was actually a Yamaha C-3 upon further checking.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: headroom on February 05, 2010, 07:36:50 AM
Howdy,

since I am curious by profession (electronics engineer), I connected my trusty Tektronix scope to the remote interface of my PCM-M10. This is what I found:

Connector:
 
4-pole 3.5mm plug
tip = cathode "Recording" LED in remote
ring 1 = data
ring 2 = ground
sleeve = +3V, anode "Recording" LED

data protocol:
 
Sony SIRC, unmodulated (i.e. lacking the 40kHz carrier),
Start bit + 20 data bits: 7 command bits, 5 device address bits, 8 extra bits (all LSB first)

The following commands are sent in the sequence "start bit - command bits - device address - extra bits":

TMARK: $48-$1A-$E4 (S-0001001-01011-00100111)
STOP:  $18-$1A-$E4 (S-0001100-01011-00100111)
PAUSE: $19-$1A-$E4 (S-1001100-01011-00100111)
REC:   $1D-$1A-$E4 (S-1011100-01011-00100111)

Interestingly, the device address is in the group for Blu-ray recorders, as listed on this page:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/sony/

The missing commands between "PAUSE" and "REC" are (at least in the Blu-ray recorders): $1A, "PLAY", $1B, "<<" and $1C, ">>".
Maybe they are implemented in the M10?

Since I cannot guarantee that my findings are 100% correct, proceed with caution and use the information presented here at your own risk.

Greetings,

Rainer

Hi Rainer do you know if the PCM 50 D has the same Pinout and Data for the Remolte like the 10D ? Because I want to sync 2 50`s with Pin 1+2 for both, tip and sleeve only from one machine...
txn
Title: Remote for D50
Post by: kleiner Rainer on February 05, 2010, 01:38:18 PM
Hi Headroom,

since I do not know anything about the remote interface of the PCM-D50, I can only speculate:

- connect both ground contacts (obvious...)
- it seems unwise to me to connect two power sources together, so I would use power for the remote only from one recorder
- since it is not known whether the data line from Remote to recorder is unidirectional or bidirectional, I would use two schottky diodes (for example 1N5711) to separate the two data lines from the recorders.

It would be interesting to see a schematic from the service manual of those recorders (back in my MD days I had them from minidisc.org...) to verify my claims ;-)

Greetings,


Rainer
Title: Re: Remote for D50
Post by: headroom on February 05, 2010, 01:45:47 PM
Hi Headroom,

since I do not know anything about the remote interface of the PCM-D50, I can only speculate:

- connect both ground contacts (obvious...)
- it seems unwise to me to connect two power sources together, so I would use power for the
remote only from one recorder
- since it is not known whether the data line from Remote to recorder is unidirectional or bidirectional, I would use two schottky diodes (for example 1N5711) to separate the two data lines from the recorders.

It would be interesting to see a schematic from the service manual of those recorders (back in my MD days I had them from minidisc.org...) to verify my claims ;-)

Greetings,


Rainer
javascript:void(0);

I have the service manual 50D send me your Email and the pdf is coming
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: kleiner Rainer on February 05, 2010, 02:48:06 PM
Hi headroom,

here it is:

dg1smd(at)vfdb(dot)net

(we should make it not too easy for the spambots ;-) )

Greetings,

Rainer
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: gatorglenn on February 06, 2010, 04:14:45 PM
I got my new PCM-M10 last night via FedEx. Played with it a little bit. Wow this thing is small. It looks great and a couple of quick test recordings using the built in mics sound pretty good. I wish I would have had this in 2008 for some good concerts that I went to then.   :D

Glenn
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on February 07, 2010, 09:37:39 PM
Just curious how many here have been a tad unsatisfied with the quality control of Sony's LCD on the PCM-M10?

So far I've seen 2 units with display anomalies I have never seen on a monochrome LCD before, let alone any Sony product, so I've decided to put this out there to gauge how many units are suffering from this. It seems they are having quality control issues on such a (seemingly) basic part of the device (if my experience is anything to go by).

Here's what I'm talking about (look for the brighter spots):
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9624/brightspot.jpg)
(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7215/brigtherspot.jpg)
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5301/brightspotdarkspot.jpg)

It's only noticeable when the unit is in a fairly dark environment and the backlight is on. Otherwise, the unit in daylight is perfectly fine.

The last pic has a slightly darker patch pretty close to the brighter spot, too. Maybe at this point I'm looking for faults, but those brighter spots are very noticeable and IMO shouldn't make it past the factory door.

What I have noticed (as a general observation and perhaps feedback to Sony) is that the whiter spots have varied in size and position on the two diffrerent units I've seen this on; they have been on different areas of the display and are not exactly the same shape on each of them. This particular unit has two such brighter spots, whereas the other unit I saw it on had just the one (but it was larger).

Both were bought from separate retailers.

I would not even mention this had I not seen it on two different units, so I'm guessing it may be fairly common (or I'm just unlucky, hah!).
Anyone else seen this?



Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on February 08, 2010, 06:17:16 PM
Dont think mine has anything like that.

(looking at it in the dark)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ehren on February 08, 2010, 10:51:18 PM
My display seems to be ok.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on February 09, 2010, 05:54:37 AM
I received my unit only a few days ago and as far as I can see there are no spots on the display.

I have to say that I'm very happy with my PCM-M10. It's even more cute and compact than first thought and I can see it being used a lot. The only thing I think could be better is the speaker which is very weak unless you're in a very quiet environment. But it's not a dealbreaker.

I've just tried connecting the unit via the USB cable to my Mac and have a question: the files are named with the date, but not the recording time. But they're date-stamped of course.
Now, most of my files need editing (they're baby sounds with a lot of silence in between), but if I resave the file I lose the original recording timestamp, so how do you solve this problem, and what kind of software do you recommend? I've tried opening/editing the files with Twisted Wave (link) (http://twistedwave.com/).
(I could of course rename each file to include the recording time, but that would be a lot of work with frequent use of the recorder).

Another thing: is it possible to remove those folders inside the unit (FOLDER01 etc.)? I've tried to put them in the trash when connected to my computer, but they reappear again when disconnected.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on February 09, 2010, 12:23:10 PM
What I'd like to know is how the thing *sounds* compared to the v3's built in a/d.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on February 09, 2010, 01:54:20 PM
The only thing I think could be better is the speaker which is very weak unless you're in a very quiet environment. But it's not a dealbreaker.
You need to use headphones to really hear what's going on anyway, and the headphone amp is excellent. I guess they could have made the thing the size of a boom box and put a really great speaker in there, but you can't have everything....
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tim in jersey on February 09, 2010, 03:59:58 PM
.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: colargol on February 10, 2010, 12:41:38 PM
Hi!

Just tried my M10 for the first time last night, it works like a dream.... Got that good taping feeling I haven't had since I stopped using my old M1. Now if Sony could just come out with one that has a nice little remote with levels, I would be completely satisfied. If not, I think I might actually stay with the M10 for quite a while...

I know it's a matter of personal preference, but in my point of view, having the opportunity to adjust levels easily without being concerned with the hold button, is great...

-Colargol
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on February 10, 2010, 03:39:03 PM
I love the M10 too, but I got no good taper feeling using my D100 (an M1 without defeatable SCMS). It took forever to load a tape, was a nuisance to get the recording into the computer), and every 2 years like clockwork I'd start getting dropouts and have to pay Pro-Digital $200+ for repairs. I got my M1) for $240 (after cash back & E-Bay bucks)  and don't expect to ever have to repair it. It will probably work for years and then I'll probably just junk it.

Personally I don't care about a remote. No need to check levels if recording in 24 bit (at least after checking an early peak or 2 to verify they're peaking around -12 dB or so).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 11, 2010, 05:16:55 AM
I came across http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1696395#msg1696395 whree Dogmusic uploaded a short bit of organ and drums duo, and I've reduced it to an mp3 as it was, and also with 8dB of widening applied.  The two versions are in the zip file below, only a 1MB download.

As with the piano sample, I personally think it opens out the sound considerably.  Note again that I am not using any eq, just widening, but the wider sound emerges with much more sparkle - sounds "righter" to me, but I wasn't there at the time!

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Anderson.zip

Hope you don't mind me monkeying with your original sample, Dogmusic.  Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 11, 2010, 04:51:51 PM
I've thought through what's going on here. 

Omnidirectional mics are more omnidirectional at low frequencies than at high frequencies.  So a closely-spaced pair of omnis, even if mounted at say 90 degrees to each other, will obtain very little stereo separation at low to mid frequencies.   But at higher frequencies, each mic is more sensitive to sounds arriving from in front of the mic than at the side (the published Sony spec for these mics clearly shows that).  So the M10 records higher frequencies with greater stereo separation than lower frequencies.

So, using an MS VST plugin, if you separate the side signal from the mid signal and listen to these individually, the side signal (the difference between left and right) is much brighter than the mid signal because it's derived from the on-axis sounds arriving at each mic.  When you process the mid and the side back to normal left and right, but with extra side to widen the image, you're adding more of the high frequency on-axis (per mic mounted at 90 degrees) component, and thus the whole sound is brighter.

Feeding an M10 recording through a stereo image display (without widening) you can see clearly that the HF components spread out significantly more than LF components.

In an accurate stereo image, if you had a kick drum and a cymbal at say 45 degrees to the recorder, they would sound as if they were both in the same place.  The M10 would make them sound like the kick drum was more in the middle and the cymbal was more accurately loacated at the side.  Emphasise the width using an MS plugin and the kick drum will tend to stay where it was, and the cymbal will tend to move further sideways, and will sound brighter.

So, a bit of a question mark hangs over the accuracy of the M10's stereo imaging (with the built in mics) at least in theory, but that doesn't mean that it won't sound pleasant enough in practice.

Mine should arrive today - the "P" model.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: illconditioned on February 11, 2010, 05:13:53 PM
Another cool idea would be to put a baffle between the mics.  I made a crude one using some heavy rubber-back carpeting, approx 8" diameter circle.

I've since moved away from that because I don't (really) like the sound of the internal mics.  They sound good, and have very low noise.  They just don't sound *great* like some of the other mics I'm using.  If I'm recording music and I want others to listen, I want better sound.

I think where the M10 works is for ambient recording, like family visiting, children playing, etc.  In these applications the low self noise can be a real advantage.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 12, 2010, 09:08:57 AM
After a few hours playing with the M10(P) I'm on the whole impressed - it's a very well thought out piece of kit and the controls and display are a pleasure to use. 

Some minor quibbles - I'm very surprised that there's no margin reset button nor peak hold setting - both margins and peaks reset automatically after about one second.  There should be a menu option to set the peak hold time, with infinite hold provided for, and with the record button acting as a reset button (it currently has no function once you are recording).

The auto level feature is actually a preset level (about '3' on the knob) and it appears to turn on the limiter.  So that's good insofar as there's no pumping of background noise - when things are quiet it doesn't raise the level, it simply rapidly limits any peaks.  But as the preset level is somewhat conservative, if you are recording something quiet you're going to have to up the level in post production.

The backlight can be turned on (for the preset length of time) simply by pushing down the power button.  However, don't do that for too long else it will happily switch off during recording.  They should have required one to deliberately press "stop", then turn off.

If replaying, and you stop or pause for more than 10 minutes, the M10 will go to sleep but then wake up at the exact point you left it.  Once turned off, it comes back on at the start of the last played track.

If you put nested folders into the recorder from your PC, it "flattens" them into a single list of all folders (which is fine by me).

Transfer speed seems a bit on the slow side but I might try optimising it for speed rather than for quick removal, in Windows.  [Edit - tried that and it seemed to make no difference.  Transferring mp3 tracks to the recorder runs at about 3.5MB/s, from the recorder at 5MB/s]

And those built in mics... there's no getting away from the fact that stereo imaging is poor.  I'm not quite sure what Sony had in mind when they specified the mics.  Sound quality is good and low noise, but the imaging would preclude doing anything much with the recording.  Sound pickup is much the same whether you talk (or play) towards the display face or the front edge, or even from the rear.  This means that it's very forgiving about which way you point it, but unless the sound source is very close, stereo separation is rather limited, and you are likely to pick up a lot of what you don't want (eg room acoustic or audience round you).  Personally I'd be more likely to make serious use of a Zoom H2 built in mic recording.

The "P" model has a dead kitten windscreen and a carrying bag included, but otherwise I think it's identical to the normal version.  Colour is matte dark grey, close to black.

All in all, a very sexy and pro-looking piece of kit, which will probably take the place of my RH-1 Hi-MD recorder (and others) unless I particularly need the tiny size of that one.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: mloewen on February 12, 2010, 08:32:03 PM
 I use the display button to turn the light on . But with the battery life I prefer to just leave the the light always on, less chance of noise from handling it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 13, 2010, 12:35:46 AM
On the naturerecordists list I've seen a suggestion that the M10's stereo image can usefully be manipulated using separate eq of the mid and side.  For instance, reducing the level of the low frequencies in the centre of the M10 sound would also have the effect of increasing the proportion of side channel heard, thus making for a wider sound.  And at the same time one could boost the low frequencies in the side channel if the brighter sound isn't to your taste.

Here's a link to a VST plugin (free) which can be used to manipulate the eq of mid and side channels -

http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-phase-eq/

- you'd probably find that a basic MS widening VST would then not be required, but google for Voxengo MSED if you do still need a free one.

[Edit - if you don't want to read the manual for the Matthew Lindsay VST, simply select the "MS Enhancement" preset and you'll be impressed right away].

As for the keeping the backlight on all the time - heh, indeed one has to develop a different attitude to battery life with this recorder!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on February 13, 2010, 06:49:19 AM
On the naturerecordists list I've seen a suggestion that the M10's stereo image can usefully be manipulated using separate eq of the mid and side.

Here's a link to a VST plugin (free) which can be used to manipulate the eq of mid and side channels -

http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-phase-eq/ (http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-phase-eq/)

- you'd probably find that a basic MS widening VST would then not be required, but google for Voxengo MSED if you do still need a free one.

Is there anything similar around which works for Mac computers?
The above only works with Windows.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 13, 2010, 07:12:15 AM
I guess you'd have to rummage through the KvR or Gersic VST databases.  I think freebies tend to be more PC than Mac however...

Meanwhile, a small 'discovery' - to my surprise the T.mark button functions with mp3 files. Mp3 files don't normally allow markers to be included (in other hardware and software).

Looking at the innards of the such a marked mp3 file, I saw a reference to SFMarkers, or the like, which prompted me to install the Sound Forge software included with the recorder.  And indeed, it shows the markers I created in the mp3 file.  I've got no particular plan to use Sound Forge in preference to any of the other audio software that I have, but if I did want to record in mp3 and did want to use markers, then I might well use SF for that purpose.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on February 13, 2010, 07:16:16 AM
I use the display button to turn the light on .

I tend not to do that, as it cycles the time readout between elasped/remaining/clock/whatever, which I don't want.  FWIW I've just been pressing any of the main buttons which do nothing during record.  That is, any of:

- up/fwd
- down/back
- record
- play

These are also abit easier to press quietly than the little buttons under the display.


Quote
But with the battery life I prefer to just leave the the light always on, less chance of noise from handling it.

Good point.  I wonder whether the battery still lasts (relatively) well with light-always-on.  Will try.

Had mine 2 weeks and recorded a fair bit.  The battery indicator is still showing completely full :)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on February 13, 2010, 10:19:15 AM

I'm very surprised that there's no margin reset button nor peak hold setting - both margins and peaks reset automatically after about one second.  There should be a menu option to set the peak hold time, with infinite hold provided for


Yep - that would be nice!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on February 13, 2010, 03:54:41 PM
I have some problems with folders on my PCM-M10. According to the manual you can create your own recording folders in addition to (and instead???) of the existing 10 preset folders that came with the unit.
Well, I create new folders when connected to my Mac, but no folders show up when the unit is disconnected and I scroll through by pressing the "folder" button and up/down.

I hope I haven't messed things up, because in the hope of deleting the "FOLDER01" etc. I deleted them all including the "MSGLISTA.MSF" file once. After that I reformatted the unit. I also deleted the .EXE file that was included inside the unit (since I don't use Windows I had no use for it).
If I've cause the problems myself, and this is the reason why I can't see my own folders, is there a way to reset the unit?
I have noticed that the files I deleted (except the .EXE file) reappear, so obviously that's some sort of default system. And recording/playback also works fine, but like I said I can't seem to create and use my own folders.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 13, 2010, 03:59:48 PM
The only folders I have created have been made by dragging an mp3 folder tree into the unit.  But if I'm in one of those folders and then press 'record' the M10 switches to the first of its own folders.  So maybe folders you create yourself are set "read only" - and if they contain no files it would then be logical for them not to show up.

Short answer - try creating (dragging in) folders already containing files.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on February 13, 2010, 04:09:11 PM
Aha! ¨
Just tried it -Yes, the folders I created (while connected to my computer) show up only if they already contain an audio file.
I was instead hoping to create a bunch of folders (e.g. "Lectures", "Environmental", "Notes", "Music" etc.) which would help me have things better organized when doing my own recordings.

But if I select one of those folders I created with a file in them, then press "Rec" the recording jumps to "FOLDER01" instead!
So the only place you can record your own stuff is in one of those 10 folders, and you can't rename them?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 13, 2010, 04:14:21 PM
Looks like that's the case.

As you've discovered, indeed folders with no audio content don't show.  Add an audio file and the folder appears.  Add a text file.  Then use the "delete" menu option to delete the contents of the folder.  The audio file(s) get deleted, but the text file and the folder itself remains.  So it doesn't delete something that you couldn't see was there, which is good.

Later I may try installing Reaper onto the M10 itself.  I've tried it with other devices so there should be no problem.  It would enable you to connect the M10 to any PC that happens to be to hand and then to edit the recordings on the device without needing a program on the PC itself.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on February 13, 2010, 05:23:43 PM
So it doesn't delete something that you couldn't see was there, which is good.

Yes... but..  I have been in situations where I unknowingly began recording on a card with insufficient free space.   I looked before the show, and saw no files on the card.  So I thought I was fine.  However, Jpeg files were taking up space.  They were not visible because the recorder would only display wav's.  And because the recorder would not delete anything other than wav's, I was unable to remove them at the set break.  I think I ended up using the SD card from my camera, but it was a brief crisis.   You'd think I could delete them using the camera, but no... They were in a 'misc' folder that the camera would not access.  Sometimes you really do need the ability to delete other file types.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on February 13, 2010, 05:37:07 PM
According to the manual you can create your own recording folders in addition to (and instead???) of the existing 10 preset folders that came with the unit.

No - as you've figured, you can only record to the standard 10 folders.

Any other folders are just for playback.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 13, 2010, 05:37:46 PM
Quote
Yes... but..  I have been in situations where I unknowingly began recording on a card with insufficient free space.

Fortunately the M10 display always shows available running time calculated according to the current recording format.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: micmij on February 15, 2010, 12:24:05 AM
Hi there,

Thanks for all the invaluable information in this thread and on this site!

I have a bit of a problem with my M10...  I got a friend to pick one up whilst he was visiting Japan (I'm in Australia and there's no indication of when it will be released here - so thought it was an opportunity to save on shipping costs) and it turns out that it is locked to the Japanese language.  After trying to translate the Japanese manual vs the English manual, asking a Japanese friend and even contacting Sony Japan I've had it confirmed that the language menu option that's on the US model just does not appear on the Japanese model.

I'm not sure if any one here knows, but from my experience with Sony MD players (that I had previously purchased in Japan and changed the language on!) it was possible to put the players in a 'service' mode that allowed you to access deeper, service-type options within the menu system.  I wonder if anybody knows of such a thing on the M10 and, if so, whether there is an option to turn on the language selection within that?

I've still managed to use it without too many problems as most of the buttons are fairly self-explanatory, and I can figure my way arouond the menu system translating the Japanese manual against the English one, but it would make the little beauty a little more useable if I could get the English language mode happening.

Any help would be appreciated!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Grey Area on February 15, 2010, 05:02:07 PM
I don't know if there is a service mode like that, maybe there is. However, my PCM-M10, bought in Germany, has a language selection in the detail menu, giving a choice between English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, and Polish - and not Japanese. If yours is Japanese and does not give you a language selection, then this could be a sign that the Japanese model uses a different firmware. If they used the same, Japanese would likely be in the language selection among the others. As far as I know, Sony regularly does this with their mp3-players, where Japanese versions "speak" only Japanese.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on February 15, 2010, 05:05:59 PM
I have a bit of a problem with my M10...  I got a friend to pick one up whilst he was visiting Japan (I'm in Australia and there's no indication of when it will be released here - so thought it was an opportunity to save on shipping costs) and it turns out that it is locked to the Japanese language.

Congrats on your PCM-M10, but sorry to hear about your language issues.
I don't know if this helps, but there's an eBay seller in Japan called "Ace_of_bicycle2004" who sells among many things Japanese Sony PCM-M10 units (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300357473611). The unit is clearly shown with Japanese labelling of the buttons, but I would assume that when selling it to other countries there would be very little interest if the language can't be changed. Maybe you can contact this seller and ask if it's possible, and how.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on February 15, 2010, 09:20:18 PM
...I'm in Australia and there's no indication of when it will be released here...

http://www.sony.com.au/product/pcm-m10
I'm guessing soon if it isn't already, but it probably doesn't help you, sorry.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: micmij on February 16, 2010, 12:39:34 AM
Thanks for all the replies  :)

Grey Area - the US manual shows those language selections (less Polish) plus Russian, Japanese, Korean, Chinese x2 and Thai.  So there must a few firmwares going around.

CatScan - good idea, I'll give that a go.

tekdroid - I just spotted that, too. Although, it retails for twice what I paid for mine.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on February 16, 2010, 09:01:03 AM
You're welcome  :D
yes, looks like there are different firmwares available, because I ordered mine from the States, but the only languages I can choose between are: English, Spanish and French.
According to the cardboard box it seems to be for the US/Canada market.

Oh, I found out that you can check which version firmware you have by holding in the STOP button for several seconds (while the unit is on). Mine shows version 1.00. Makes me wonder if Sony will release updates and if the unit will get any improvements. Does anyone here have the right contacts at Sony and can ask?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 16, 2010, 04:33:28 PM
My Australian model (the expensive one...) shows firmware 1.00 also but the language choices are extensive.  There are sometimes hidden keypress combos to switch localisation in such devices but I've not found anything yet - apart from the odd behavior of the 'record' button which, if held down for long enough, does not put the M10 into record mode.  But doesn't appear to do anything else.  In the manual it discourages you from holding down 'record' for some reason.

Pressing record and play at the same time starts recording instantly I notice.  I also came across the facility to turn on repeat by holding down the 'play' button during playback, but rechecking the manual, that's in there.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: micmij on February 16, 2010, 05:55:34 PM
Ozpeter,

Out of interest, when and where did you get yours?  I had a look around at the main Sony places here in Sydney about a month ago and it wasn't around, and nobody seemed to know anything about a release date for it...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 17, 2010, 01:51:26 AM
I got mine from Videoguys in the Melbourne eastern suburbs, on Friday just passed.  $599, gulp.  But then again, going price of an RH-1 Hi-MD recorder is about $20 more (in Australia) so...

It's interesting to compare the size of the M10 vs RH-1.  The latter is thinner but squarer.  Its surface area is actually probably the same.  And as the RH-1 has no mic at all, to be fair you have to factor in some kind of mic attached to it.

All in all I see the M10 as the logical progression from Hi-MD.  Now I have 3 different Hi-MD portables jostling for space in the cupboard - from which they may very rarely emerge, but I think they've in essence been made redundant.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 17, 2010, 05:12:15 PM
To keep this in the M10 'archive' here I'll double post the following from another thread -

I've just tried recording my ultrasonic rat deterrent device at a distance of 1 metre using my shiny new Sony PCM-M10 set to 24/96.

The ultrasonic sweep tone emitted by the device shows very clearly in a spectral display of the recording, right up to 48kHz.

The recording can be downloaded at http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/M10%20ultrasonic.WAV
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: micmij on February 17, 2010, 05:32:10 PM
I got mine from Videoguys in the Melbourne eastern suburbs, on Friday just passed.  $599, gulp.
What the heck, it's a beautiful piece of equipment, anyway, isn't it?  It is a little annoying how expensive these things are here in Oz, though.  I could understand when the exchange rate was so poor, but now...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2) Some Piano Samples
Post by: aryolkary on February 18, 2010, 07:59:29 PM
Hi, been a happy user of the Sony for a few months now.
Here are some piano recordings, internal mics, mostly recorded in mp3 320kpbs, some were recorded in 16bit 44khz wav. With an upright, a small room and the lack of mic placement expertise, this is as good as I could get:

Higher quality (audio only)
http://www.esnips.com/web/aryolkary (http://www.esnips.com/web/aryolkary)

Youtube link (to hear it with lesser quality, more artifacts, but in the end what most people will listen to)
http://www.youtube.com/aryolkary (http://www.youtube.com/aryolkary)

No processing or effects were added. Some reverb would be nice though, too dry sounding, specially when comparing it with grand piano recordings (in halls or studios).
Regards,
Ary
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tardis71 on February 18, 2010, 10:52:40 PM
Here's a song by the Lee Boys I recorded about a month ago with my M10 using the internal mics.
It was at Smith's Olde Bar sitting in the tables on the right side about 20 feet from the stacks.
Record is just setting on the table pointing up in the direction of the stacks. No editing was done to it. Is converted to 128 mp3 tho. Sounds better as wav..and even better once eq-ed. But It will give you an idea of that the internals can do. Sound was pretty loud... enjoy!

Click here for Lee Boy's Superstition MP3 recorded with M10 Internal mics (http://home.comcast.net/~mastermindmusic/leeboys-2010-01-17Atlanta.mp3)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 19, 2010, 03:42:58 PM
Very interesting sample, tardis71.  I took the liberty to take a sample from it with the first 20 seconds unchanged, then another 20 seconds run through the "Phase EQ" effect I mentioned before (which applies widening EQ using MS techniques) - for me, much more clear, wide and open with the effect applied.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/leeboys%20widened.mp3 (1MB, 40 seconds only).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tardis71 on February 19, 2010, 03:52:52 PM
Wow! very cool! sir! ;-) I'll have to check that plug in out.
 8)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 19, 2010, 03:59:15 PM
For ease of reference re that plugin here's an edited quote from a couple of pages back -



Here's a link to a VST plugin (free) which can be used to manipulate the eq of mid and side channels -

http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-phase-eq/

if you don't want to read the manual for the Matthew Lindsay VST, simply select the "MS Enhancement" preset and you'll be impressed right away

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Kevin T on February 19, 2010, 07:15:09 PM
Wow

I was leaning towards getting an M10 but the internals leave me wanting. Just the opposite of my H2 you either get heaven or hell. With The M10 is just always oddly vanilla with out major post bandaids :)   
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: johnw on February 21, 2010, 10:53:13 AM
Anyone know what unity is on this? I read through the threads and couldn't figure that out, so sorry if I missed it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tardis71 on February 21, 2010, 11:03:25 AM
Wow

I was leaning towards getting an M10 but the internals leave me wanting. Just the opposite of my H2 you either get heaven or hell. With The M10 is just always oddly vanilla with out major post bandaids :)   

Hummm Heaven or Hell or a strong vanilla steady as she goes? I would think I would rather have something dependable and vanilla over the chance of getting Hell...no? 
Keep in mind that my recording was done on the side...not in the middle of the room.
All in all a pretty good recording for just plunking down a 2x4inch recorder on a table. It would have sounded better for sure if it was at the soundboard. But I'm still in the testing out phase. I have no doubt that the m10 with it's internals can make even better recordings. It's gonna depend on the live mix mostly and were you record from. As to my recording...that was pretty close to the live sound... I'd say if anything I was too close...Plus the mix was really loud. But everything is very clear and who doesn't do post eq to make even the best original recording sound even better? I've heard H2 recordings and I'll take the M10 over any of them. imho! ;-)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: MikeMannZ on February 21, 2010, 12:13:38 PM
Wow

I was leaning towards getting an M10 but the internals leave me wanting. Just the opposite of my H2 you either get heaven or hell. With The M10 is just always oddly vanilla with out major post bandaids :)   

Whoa the H2 over the m10...... ???
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on February 21, 2010, 02:22:36 PM
But everything is very clear and who doesn't do post eq to make even the best original recording sound even better?

Yuck.  The best recordings don't need EQ or post.

Any most of us here don't do EQ or post.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: page on February 21, 2010, 02:28:40 PM
But everything is very clear and who doesn't do post eq to make even the best original recording sound even better?

Yuck.  The best recordings don't need EQ or post.

Any most of us here don't do EQ or post.

agreed.

Some don't do EQ cause they have gotten good at what they do or believe it's accuracy for better or worse that means something. Some don't do EQ cause they are ignorant in how to or are apathetic towards it.

But most of us can agree the best recordings still don't need EQ though.  :)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on February 21, 2010, 02:33:09 PM
Anyone know what unity is on this? I read through the threads and couldn't figure that out, so sorry if I missed it.
Posted reply copied below in this thread, but easy to miss so here's another view:

Quote from: fmaderjr on January 11, 2010, 03:14:00 AMguy-can you test for the approximate unity gain setting?

Also it'd be great to know if there is a level below which you would still get clipping if you had to set the level below that point to keep the meters from going over 0 dB. I made a very informal test line in to try to determine this approximately and it looked like that point was probably very low (possibly around 1/10 on the wheel). This ratio to the highest level appears to me to be a good bit lower than on Sony DAT's and MD's which is a good thing.

When I was using a Korg MR-1, I found your testing results of these issues invaluable in making flawless recordings.

GUYSONIC REPLIED: Going in LINE jack with REC level knob set at #6 and with deck set for LINE (not headphone) output, the LINE output jack signal equaled the input giving unity 'system gain.' 

My impression was lowest stable REC knob setting is about #1.  In other words, suggest that no lower than #1 REC level setting be used to assure not overloading the deck showing maximum signal indications at or near 0 dB VU FS.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tardis71 on February 21, 2010, 03:11:22 PM
Point taken...yeah I didn't need EQ for my AKG 414 recorded shows...but I mostly do stealth so that's really what type recordings I was thinking of when I made that statement. So yes, for my Core Sound and other Mini mic recordings...EQ almost always made them better...imho! I'm talking about small mics that are comparable to the M10 mics. The Internals on the M10 are not 414s! ;-) But they are pretty good for a 2x4 all in one recorder!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: johnw on February 21, 2010, 03:46:07 PM
Thanks guysonic. Mine should be here soon. Excited about trying this after owning the D50 for a year or so.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 21, 2010, 03:58:12 PM
Quote
Whoa the H2 over the m10......
The H2 is designed as a four-capsule mic array with built in recorder.  Use it for anything else and you quickly run into its limitations (eg horrific mic input noise when using external mics). 

The M10 is designed as a recorder with mics added just in case you need to use them.   It's best for voice recording applications where you want to grab sound from all round eg at a meeting.  For concert use it will be recording audience noise from all directions, and room reflections too, rather than providing any focus on the band. It has a very good mic preamp for using external mics, which is the preferred option where possible.

That's my take.   Show me any precedent for a well regarded stereo mic using closely spaced omni capsules and I'll eat my words.  Any discussion of mic technique using omni capsules will suggest a minimum spacing of 40cm (IIRC).  The M10 mic layout is a design compromise.  You can make a recording that appears to sound good but the stereo imaging doesn't stand up to close examination, whereas the stereo imaging of the H2, particularly when using all four capsules, is very good.  The M10 is, none the less, all round a very nice device.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: MikeMannZ on February 21, 2010, 04:14:05 PM
Quote
Whoa the H2 over the m10......
The H2 is designed as a four-capsule mic array with built in recorder.  Use it for anything else and you quickly run into its limitations (eg horrific mic input noise when using external mics). 

The M10 is designed as a recorder with mics added just in case you need to use them.   It's best for voice recording applications where you want to grab sound from all round eg at a meeting.  For concert use it will be recording audience noise from all directions, and room reflections too, rather than providing any focus on the band. It has a very good mic preamp for using external mics, which is the preferred option where possible.

That's my take.   Show me any precedent for a well regarded stereo mic using closely spaced omni capsules and I'll eat my words.  Any discussion of mic technique using omni capsules will suggest a minimum spacing of 40cm (IIRC).  The M10 mic layout is a design compromise.  You can make a recording that appears to sound good but the stereo imaging doesn't stand up to close examination, whereas the stereo imaging of the H2, particularly when using all four capsules, is very good.  The M10 is, none the less, all round a very nice device.

So let me ask you this.  If you were buying a recorder solely for recording a band in a live situation with the units internal mics... you would choose the h2 over the m10?  If not either of these recorders then which?

Mike
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 21, 2010, 04:26:32 PM
Quote
So let me ask you this.  If you were buying a recorder solely for recording a band in a live situation with the units internal mics... you would choose the h2 over the m10?  If not either of these recorders then which?
Heh, I asked for that, didn't I?!

Firstly, I much prefer the user experience of the M10 and I'd have to force myself to focus on the final outcome rather than on which I'd prefer to be using.

If it's a loud band the M10 will, I think, clip before the H2 would, but I need to double check on that.

If it's a stealth recording, the M10 is more discreet (eg you can turn off all lights and indicators).

The M10 battery life means you don't have to even think about it.  The H2 is no disaster in that department but you would be silly not to start with really fresh batteries.

I record classical music rather than rock, so that skews my requirements.

I guess the overall answer is that I'd probably use the H2 if the best end result was the priority, but I would wish I was using the M10.

As for what's best given a wider choice of device, I'd bow to others' greater hands-on experience.  The R09 or the H4N??  Assuming that you don't have a huge amount of cash to spend.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: MikeMannZ on February 21, 2010, 04:48:12 PM

I guess the overall answer is that I'd probably use the H2 if the best end result was the priority, but I would wish I was using the M10.


The h2 uses 2 cardioids and 2 omnis so the overall result would be more well rounded?  The M10 would provide more low end (from what I gather) and less to none stereo image?  I've heard a ton of internal mic stuff from the m10 and gotta say quality wise (to my ears) I like it much more than what I hear coming out of the h2.

Does the M10 provide plug in power?  or do I need a ps to hook up some Deluxe Audio Technica Miniature Binaural microphones?

Mike
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on February 21, 2010, 11:30:14 PM
Does the M10 provide plug in power?  or do I need a ps to hook up some Deluxe Audio Technica Miniature Binaural microphones?

Mike

Plug-in power provided. And a cute feature--when you plug in the mics, it asks if you want to turn on the plug-in power.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 22, 2010, 08:46:41 AM
Quote
The h2 uses 2 cardioids and 2 omnis so the overall result would be more well rounded
The H2 uses 2 pairs of cardioids (or so I've always understood).  One pair is 90 degrees, the other pair 120 degrees, so you can get different results from front and back, or record both and mix to taste in postproduction. 

http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=11501 is pretty relevant I think, to avoid wandering too far from the M10 in this thread :)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on February 22, 2010, 10:42:02 PM
Has anyone found a tight-fitting protective case or "skin" like the one I asked about earlier (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1723230#msg1723230), or something even better (I'm open for suggestions)?
I really need something to protect the unit while using it (recording or getting ready to record; situations where a box to put it in really isn't very helpful).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: colargol on February 24, 2010, 11:59:52 AM
I use the display button to turn the light on . But with the battery life I prefer to just leave the the light always on, less chance of noise from handling it.

I tested this with my GP 2700 mAh rechargeables just to see if leaving the light on meant much battery-wise, and it recorded for 24 hours and 37 mins in 44.1 khz 24 bits on internal mics. Pretty impressive!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: johnw on February 24, 2010, 04:59:49 PM
Finally got my M10 today. First impressions are that it is much smaller than I was expecting. Way way smaller and much lighter than the D50. It also feels pretty cheap and plasticky, not nearly as solid feeling as the D50, much more like the R-09HR. The display is great and the menu is about as easy to navigate as the D50. The line in on the top sucks and seems flimsy and prone to breaking. I hope it is soldered to the board like the R-09HR and not like the R09. The power/hold switch is pretty sweet. You have to hold it back for 3 seconds to power off, so that shouldn't be a problem. I wish it had a light button like the D50, but can live without it. The door for the card is a better design than the D50 and doesn't rattle. All in all, pretty sweet unit with almost all of the nicer features of the D50, but in a much smaller package for a slightly cheaper price.

Here's a few comparison shots of the M10 with a 722, iphone and Nbox.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4037/4385160613_a0939b0db3.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2744/4385160467_daf5c714a6.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4385924340_fef8042283.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4385161097_5a74d146d0.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4385161203_7743667c76.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4385161367_2a1850bf7b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2704/4385161489_c776b1ed7b.jpg)

Almost the exact same footprint as the iphone and about twice as thick.

EDIT:
Here's an old one of my Nbox and D50 for comparison:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2488/3745826937_241f8ba52c.jpg)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: page on February 24, 2010, 11:54:43 PM
damn john, that's sexy
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: mloewen on February 25, 2010, 08:08:48 PM
Has anyone found a tight-fitting protective case or "skin" like the one I asked about earlier (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1723230#msg1723230), or something even better (I'm open for suggestions)?
I really need something to protect the unit while using it (recording or getting ready to record; situations where a box to put it in really isn't very helpful).
I found 2 camera bags at a local Dollar Tree store that are perfect size to put in for my pocket or the case I keep all my gear in or to clip it to my belt. There was also a Kodak case some has pictures of on part 1 of this thread>
Title: live sample
Post by: Napo on February 26, 2010, 04:47:51 AM
Here a sample of a live recording in a concert hall. It is Bill Frisell trio and the sound of his guitar comes out pretty good.

Please note that:
- recording at 96/24 (duration around 3 minutes)
- internal mics
- I was handhelding the device
- you may need to increase the volume to appreciate the sample in full (no post edit applied).
- the file is 89 mega, downloadable for the next 7 days at https://www.yousendit.com/download/RmNEV0o5dEM1bmhjR0E9PQ 
 
My ears are satisified with the result. Two problems remain: the stereo image is almost not existing; the bass frequency tends to be booming at times.

Grateful for your feedback.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on February 26, 2010, 07:07:41 AM
It also feels pretty cheap and plasticky, not nearly as solid feeling as the D50, much more like the R-09HR.

I disagree. I think both the M10 and R-09HR feel very solid and feel great in your hand (unlike the R-09, Zoom products, and the MT24/96). For the price, were you expecting it to be built like a MixPre?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: darktrain on February 26, 2010, 10:09:11 AM
It also feels pretty cheap and plasticky, not nearly as solid feeling as the D50, much more like the R-09HR.

I disagree. I think both the M10 and R-09HR feel very solid and feel great in your hand (unlike the R-09, Zoom products, and the MT24/96). For the price, were you expecting it to be built like a MixPre?


I agree the M10 felt very solid, it was just a smaller version of the D50 and looks like they were made of the same stuff, all the other recorders except the pmd620 felt "hollow" and cheap
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: johnw on February 26, 2010, 10:17:54 AM
Everyone has an opinion, that's just mine. The reason I brought it up is because I've seen it described/advertised as having an aluminum enclosure and that is misleading. The faceplate may have some aluminum, but certainly not the sides and most of the back. EDIT: The official Sony product page only states durable construction for the M10. They state that the D50 is constructed of lightweight metal (aluminum).

Having owned and used an R-09HR, D50 and now an M10, I would describe it as very much like the R-09HR which is not advertised as having an aluminum enclosure. The D50 is very solid, has some weight to it and would appear to be mostly aluminum. EDIT: I agree that it looks like the D50, but don't believe they share the same materials in their construction.

I think the price closely matches the build quality and I would not expect much more. If I wanted a more substantial unit and was willing to sacrifice on size, I would pay another $150 and go with the D50.

I have never owned or used a MixPre, so I can't comment on that.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: johnw on February 26, 2010, 10:31:17 AM
D50 weight 366g with 4AA (266g without)bats)
M10 weight 187 with 2AA (137g with out bats)
Weight of AA battery about 25g

D50 size 378.5 cm3
M10 size 167.8 cm3

Density (cm3/g)
D50 1.4
M10 1.2

Density is about the same. Either way, I don't plan on returning it or dropping it. So long as the 3.5mm line input jack lasts for 2-3 years, I'll be happy with it.
Title: Re: live sample
Post by: guysonic on February 27, 2010, 11:47:33 PM
Here a sample of a live recording in a concert hall. It is Bill Frisell trio and the sound of his guitar comes out pretty good.

Grateful for your feedback.
For what it is, actually sounds good.  Here is what it looks like analysing a portion normalized.  Not much bass below 40, but didn't mention settings on the deck so maybe bass filter was used, or mics lack low end, or both.  Not much above 15K Hz either, but typical of mics and PA speakers.  Phase plot shows interesting higher frequency shifts making the recording sound not so mono at times.

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/SP_M10micBillFrissel.gif)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Napo on February 28, 2010, 12:09:21 PM
WoW, Guysonic; that was a heck of analysis for a newbie like me.

A need a clarification on 'Not much bass below 40, but didn't mention settings on the deck '. Is the deck which you refer to, my PCM-M10? I do not believe it is possible to set bass for the recording on the M10.

I have also noticed the abence of bass. In other situations when I was recording at high record level, the bass were coming rather booming. My question: How the mics catch the low frequency, is it linked to the recording level?
Best from Italy
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on February 28, 2010, 12:24:37 PM
Is the deck which you refer to, my PCM-M10?

Yep

Quote
I do not believe it is possible to set bass for the recording on the M10.

There is a "bass cut" option in the menu. 


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Napo on February 28, 2010, 01:15:21 PM


Quote
I do not believe it is possible to set bass for the recording on the M10.

There is a "bass cut" option in the menu.
[/quote]

If you refer to the low cut filter (LFC) it was not 'on' during the recording.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on February 28, 2010, 02:07:01 PM
If you refer to the low cut filter (LFC) it was not 'on' during the recording.

Yep - that's what was being asked.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 28, 2010, 09:08:46 PM
Quote
Phase plot shows interesting higher frequency shifts making the recording sound not so mono at times.
This is a consequence of closely spaced omni mics - they are inevitably mono at low frequencies and more stereo at high frequencies (unless the mics are uniformly omni at all frequencies, which Sony themselves state is not the case). 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: johnw on March 01, 2010, 12:28:35 PM
after finally using this i am very happy with it. it clips with very little distortion on line in, sounds great and is easy to conceal
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Napo on March 04, 2010, 04:51:31 AM
Quote
Phase plot shows interesting higher frequency shifts making the recording sound not so mono at times.
This is a consequence of closely spaced omni mics - they are inevitably mono at low frequencies and more stereo at high frequencies (unless the mics are uniformly omni at all frequencies, which Sony themselves state is not the case).

As a confirmation of Ozpetek's point, here a recording of some shells playing sound (excerpt of Cage' s Elements). recorded in a concernt hall, 94/24, no bass cut filter, M10 internal mics.
2 minutes clip (95 Mega) DLable for the next seven days
https://www.yousendit.com/download/RmNCZ280NHY4NVd4dnc9PQ
(no post edit)

 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: M-chen on March 10, 2010, 11:56:08 AM
Hi all,

as one of the first users of M10 here some suggestions from my side.
Because I do not want to carry a seperate audio player with me, I use it as MP3 player also. Doing that, I found some suboptimal “features”.

First, the time shown in the display is not always correct for some songs. It is sometimes much longer (e.g. more than ten minutes for a song which is only 4 minutes in reality). As a result, during play the indicated time is running much faster than real time. I tried to find out, if this behaviour happens only when playing songs encoded in variable bit rate, which was my first thought. But no, the same effect appears for titles encoded in fixed bit rate, no matter which bitrate is used. Not that good.
Second, for a serious listener there is an important demand for playing FLAC files, maybe even OGG. Why is this missing? Much worse and cheaper players do have this capability. O.k., this device is not really a pure audio player, but nevertheless this is much appreciated!
Third, as mentioned by Sony, I tried to play back songs encoded in AAC. No matter which encoder I used, they could not be played back. And I tried several ones. So I really do not know, which encoder one has to use for that, if it is possible at all. Any ideas?
Fourth, because of the strange menu structure it is totally annoying playing back albums. The songs in a folder will be played according to the file date, not according to the song name. To get the sequence you want, you need to modify the file date with software tools, which is a lot of additional work to perform. Stupid engineering here. Sony could have changed that for files on the SSD card at least. Or, better, let the customer decide which one is prefered by adding a feature in the menu.

It’s not a trick, it’s a Sony. Or, in other words, it’s not a bug, it’s a feature  :)
I only hope that a future software update will fix the problems soon.

Beside the complaints above, I am very impressed by the other features, especially the quality of recordings and during playback. The installed headphone amplifier is great, it drives even difficult headphones with ease. And there must be a really good DAC used. Does anyone know which one? I wish I could see the schematic or even the service manual one day...

Best wishes,

Martin
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on March 13, 2010, 02:39:38 AM
First, the time shown in the display is not always correct for some songs. It is sometimes much longer (e.g. more than ten minutes for a song which is only 4 minutes in reality). As a result, during play the indicated time is running much faster than real time. I tried to find out, if this behaviour happens only when playing songs encoded in variable bit rate, which was my first thought. But no, the same effect appears for titles encoded in fixed bit rate, no matter which bitrate is used. Not that good.

Doesn't sound good at all. I want them to improve playback usability too, because I would *love* to use a unit like this like I use MiniDisc (complete with good remotes). There is no reason why this unit can't do playback better, except economic and segmentation / business reasons.

Second, for a serious listener there is an important demand for playing FLAC files, maybe even OGG. Why is this missing? Much worse and cheaper players do have this capability. O.k., this device is not really a pure audio player, but nevertheless this is much appreciated!

Agreed! FLAC support would be really, really, really logical for a unit like this. I would also like to see Ogg Vorbis. It would cost them $0 in royalties.

Third, as mentioned by Sony, I tried to play back songs encoded in AAC. No matter which encoder I used, they could not be played back. And I tried several ones. So I really do not know, which encoder one has to use for that, if it is possible at all. Any ideas?

I mentioned this in the past but I tried just one file and had the same disappointing experience. The PSP plays the same file fine. I haven't tried again since I don't normally listen to lossy audio and consider the feature a bonus, not a requirement.

Fourth, because of the strange menu structure it is totally annoying playing back albums. The songs in a folder will be played according to the file date, not according to the song name. To get the sequence you want, you need to modify the file date with software tools, which is a lot of additional work to perform. Stupid engineering here. Sony could have changed that for files on the SSD card at least. Or, better, let the customer decide which one is prefered by adding a feature in the menu.
The playback isn't ideal and I think they are just doing what's required to compete with others in the portable recorder segment. I don't think they are really interested in Walkman-type playback features, but I wish they would be.

It’s not a trick, it’s a Sony. Or, in other words, it’s not a bug, it’s a feature  :)
I only hope that a future software update will fix the problems soon.

Beside the complaints above, I am very impressed by the other features, especially the quality of recordings and during playback. The installed headphone amplifier is great, it drives even difficult headphones with ease.
Indeed, it is a really fantastic unit where it counts. I love listening to it with difficult headphones! I am not holding my breath for a software update, though. I could always be surprised, but I doubt that will happen.

And there must be a really good DAC used. Does anyone know which one? I wish I could see the schematic or even the service manual one day...

Best wishes,

Martin

I have no idea on the DAC, but - like you - my ears like it.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tugs on March 13, 2010, 02:49:45 PM
Can somebody help me?

Im looking to pick this unit up for use in college recording lectures. This will be done in a small to medium-size setting (maybe 30ish desks), potentially with some ambiant laptop tap-tapping from me and surrounding students. I will most likely strive to just use the internal mics, but I don't know how it'll fare. I will most likely need to keep it hidden/inconspicuously face down on desk, so Im not sure of an external mic is a possibility (I will obviously consider this if it's gonna be essential).

Can anyone with experience/learned knowledge on this weigh in with some advice? Perhaps that will be a suggestion of another recorder for this purpose, I dunno...

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on March 13, 2010, 03:10:31 PM
It is a rather expensive recorder for what you intend to use it for.  There is a chance of theft, loss, or being dropped.  I'd get something less expensive, and consider a used recorder.  In regard to going unnoticed, you could put the recorder in a fabric sleeve or glove.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on March 13, 2010, 03:22:36 PM
The design of the M10 mics makes it unfussy about placement (or at least as unfussy as any such recorder is likely to be) and the internal mics are very sensitive.  There's a limiter to help contain unexpected peaks when the lecturer cracks the one joke of the term.  So it should be as suitable as any other recorder, if the price isn't too big a problem.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tugs on March 13, 2010, 03:26:03 PM
It is a rather expensive recorder for what you intend to use it for.  There is a chance of theft, loss, or being dropped.  I'd get something less expensive, and consider a used recorder.  In regard to going unnoticed, you could put the recorder in a fabric sleeve or glove.

Thanks for the feedback...

Im aware it's quite expensive for the purpose intended, but this is gonna be a serious dimension of my study (will be making detailed typed notes from and listening to repeatedly), and with interface/quality/compatability/playback speed + pitch control etc considered; I think it's a good buy. It also looks like a smartphone/has stealth mode etc, which helps somewhat if it's visible.

My query is just based on the audio recording quality though. It's gonna need to be able to pick up firmly spoken word volume at about 4 rows back in a classroom (on average, don't wanna sit up front).

The design of the M10 mics makes it unfussy about placement (or at least as unfussy as any such recorder is likely to be) and the internal mics are very sensitive.  There's a limiter to help contain unexpected peaks when the lecturer cracks the one joke of the term.  So it should be as suitable as any other recorder, if the price isn't too big a problem.

Is there not a problem with the auto limiter in that it lowers the sensitivity when there are peaks, but fails to higher it back to the level it was at before? I read that somewhere...

If that's the case, it would most likely be a good idea to pick a suitable recording level and sit in the same place every week or somethin.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on March 13, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
The M10 has an auto mode which fixes the level at a quite low value (3/10 I think) and then limits any peaks above that.  IMHO it's really only worth using if you have no idea about level setting.  However, if you set your level manually, you can turn on the limiter yourself, if you wanted to set the level quite high but still be reasonably protected against peaks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on March 14, 2010, 12:29:14 AM
If you can hear the lecture, so can the PCM-M10.

I'm sure one of its intended markets is as a recorder for broadcast interviews.

The high-sensitivity setting on the built-in mics is more sensitive than your ears. Play with the manual level during the orientation lecture, find a setting you like and use it for the rest of the semester.

To isolate it from noise, set it on something soft. And don't bang on the laptop keyboard.

--------

The reason people are suggesting that the PCM-M10 is overkill for lectures is because you don't need full-spectrum hi-fi recording for voice. You could get an iPhone app or a cheaper recorder like the Tascam DR-07 or Zoom H2. The Zoom can make the microphone pickup pattern more directional; the PCM-M10 mics are omni.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: MikeMannZ on March 14, 2010, 09:41:58 AM
My query is just based on the audio recording quality though. It's gonna need to be able to pick up firmly spoken word volume at about 4 rows back in a classroom (on average, don't wanna sit up front).

I've used mine in a very large room 6 rows back sitting on a mini tripod on the floor....behind people sitting on the floor (yoga center class room thing).  It picked up everything just dandy, even mumbling by the speaker.  I had the mic sensitivity set to low and the input on 6, in hindsight I should have used the high setting with the limiter set.  I normalized the recording and everything sounds fabulous, but never really listened to the raw recording because I knew where I had gone wrong.

Is there not a problem with the auto limiter in that it lowers the sensitivity when there are peaks, but fails to higher it back to the level it was at before? I read that somewhere...
If that's the case, it would most likely be a good idea to pick a suitable recording level and sit in the same place every week or something.

I'll let you know in a couple of days.  I have to record another talk on Tuesday and will use the limiter.  One think I did notice if you have a speaker whose voice tends to fluctuate in volume (as mine did) and you have the input set on the higher side you'll easily peak out.  Another trouble I had was other people moving around.  If someone adjusted the way they were sitting or turned a page in their notebook, it could be heard.  It wasn't terrible, but definitely audible.  I would say if you are going to sit in the same spot every time you'll easily be able to find settings that work for you.  I've used the edirol R-09HR in this same situation and had much more floor noise from the internal mics.  It's probably my inexperience with the unit, but the Sony didn't exhibit an exaggerated noise floor to the newbie like myself.   

Mike
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on March 14, 2010, 02:57:10 PM
Is there not a problem with the auto limiter in that it lowers the sensitivity when there are peaks, but fails to higher it back to the level it was at before? I read that somewhere...

No.

(well, mine doesn't behave like that)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tugs on March 14, 2010, 04:26:56 PM
Cheers for the replies guys...

Im definitely growing more confident about its ability to record speech as it's heard by the human ear, which is great news.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on March 14, 2010, 05:06:41 PM
Im definitely growing more confident about its ability to record speech as it's heard by the human ear, which is great news.

There are a lot of <$50 recorders that do that very well.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tugs on March 14, 2010, 05:26:35 PM
Im definitely growing more confident about its ability to record speech as it's heard by the human ear, which is great news.

There are a lot of <$50 recorders that do that very well.

Can you sugest one with decent size flash memory/digital pitch & speed control for faster re-listening/pre-record buffer/auto limiter?

Thanks
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on March 15, 2010, 01:40:55 AM
Okay...so I pulled the trigger today and purchased the deck from B&H.  i wil be getting it in about a week and have a show to tape right after I receive it.

Can someone give me the basic settings that I should use?

I will be running DPA 4061's > Church Audio 9100 > M10 (Line In)

I read that unity gain on the M10 was #6 on the dial and I think I run in low mic sensitivity.  I plan on running 24/96.

Can anyone who has used the deck give me the quick rundown on all the setting i should try.

I have read through numerous posts but was hoping someone could give a concise answer to this one...

I presume there is a seamless split @ 2GB...correct?

Thanks
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on March 15, 2010, 06:05:01 AM
As the 'cursor' bar passes each menu item, there's an info bar (white letters on black background) at the top of the screen, showing the current setting for the current item.  Scroll through and adjust to your personal preference if what's shown on the info bar is not to your liking.

When it comes down to it, there's really very little to adjust, and what there is is down to personal preference and the circumstances of the gig.  You've already said how you want the format set.  I think you're right about the level.

I'd be inclined to have almost everything set "off".  As you pass the "detail menu" option, select it to see the submenu stuff there.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Artstar on March 18, 2010, 05:09:23 PM
Okay...so I pulled the trigger today and purchased the deck from B&H.  i wil be getting it in about a week and have a show to tape right after I receive it.

A fine choice. You'll love it, I'm sure!

Quote
I presume there is a seamless split @ 2GB...correct?

I haven't had a chance to really put it through its paces to answer all your other questions but I can definitely say that like its PCM-D50 sibling, the 2GB file splits are indeed seamless. You'll have no problem there.

I've had it for about 1.5 months and popped its cherry in the live recording scene on the second week with my (also virgin) Core Sound cardioids - battery box fed to line in. The performance of it was good in terms of quality though I may consider designing an external preamp for future recordings given the low level I got out of it - peaks at -24dB at the level setting of 8 which I thought was going to be enough compared to my usual setting of 7 on my PCM-D50 (for -12dB peaks) with the Core Sound binaurals and the same battery box.

I haven't decided yet as I don't like the idea of having to pocket another thing too when out and about.

I'm going to another metal concert tomorrow night and will probably end up turning the recording level all the way to 10 this time to see how much more gain (and noise) I'll get from doing that. Hopefully this time, I'll be able to look at the unit and see if it will tickle the -12dB LEDs as per all my other recordings.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on March 19, 2010, 09:29:32 AM
I caved and bought an M10 from B&H. Now I have way too many decks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tim in jersey on March 21, 2010, 02:39:51 AM
Has anyone tried mounting the internal memory using Linux? Results?

Also, a bit confused concerning micro SD vs. micro SDHC... I'm admittedly out of the loop, but they both appear to be the same form factor. Will micro sdhc work in the M10?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on March 21, 2010, 06:57:46 AM
SDHC micro on not-micro cards are essential above 4GB in any event - and therefore they do work in the M10.  Old solid-state media devices tend not to be SDHC compatible.  Anything recent is almost certainly SDHC compatible.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) on March 21, 2010, 08:03:25 AM
Has anyone tried mounting the internal memory using Linux? Results?

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to read the card with Linux. It should come up as an external drive.

I'm not sure if the M10 comes up as a external drive (although I suspect it does). Worse comes to worse you could use a card reader, which is what I prefer to do anyway because I have found them to be faster than hooking up the recorder as an external drive (not to mention easier IMO).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tim in jersey on March 21, 2010, 11:03:04 AM
Has anyone tried mounting the internal memory using Linux? Results?

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to read the card with Linux. It should come up as an external drive.

I'm not sure if the M10 comes up as a external drive (although I suspect it does). Worse comes to worse you could use a card reader, which is what I prefer to do anyway because I have found them to be faster than hooking up the recorder as an external drive (not to mention easier IMO).

I think you misunderstood me. By Internal memory, I meant the recorder, not the removable card...

And yeah, I prefer using a card reader too.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on March 24, 2010, 03:16:53 PM
just checking in. I may decide to start saving for one of these bad boys. B&H lists it at a very attractive $275 and I would be able to run two sets of mics and two recorders simultaneously. no reason for that but what the hell.  8)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on March 24, 2010, 03:29:23 PM
B&H gives you a nifty case for it as well when you buy the M10 from them.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tugs on March 24, 2010, 04:32:27 PM
Pardon my ignorance but what is/who are B&H?

EDIT: Never mind, found em

EDIT EDIT: Thanks Belexes
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on March 24, 2010, 04:48:43 PM
Pardon my ignorance but what is/who are B&H?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on March 24, 2010, 05:30:01 PM
Pardon my ignorance but what is/who are B&H?

If you don't know, it's best you don't find out. You will save money not knowing. trust me.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tugs on March 24, 2010, 08:20:53 PM
If you don't know, it's best you don't find out. You will save money not knowing. trust me.

It's $299 on B&H as far as I can see. I'm based in Europe so had never heard of em before tonight... Im currently looking at two sellers in the US that have it for $275 + about $30 shipping to Europe. I won't need it until September so it may have come down in price, or something better will be released.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on March 24, 2010, 10:00:38 PM
I bought my M10 from B&H a week ago for $274 and it came with the free case ($30 Value).  Free Shipping and no tax!  :o

I have never once had a problem buying from B&H...although I have never had an issue so I don't know what their customer service is like.

They've been great for me for the past several years...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on March 25, 2010, 06:03:45 PM
I have waited and am (so far) surprised nobody has received units with the LCD anomalies I experienced and posted about further back in this thread. Basically, uneven brighter dots and/or patches on the LCD as seen when the backlight is on in a dark environment.

I guess I was just very unlucky to receive 2 units like that. They were returned to the retailers (at my expense).

I'm happy to report no such issues with some additional PCM-M10s I bought (touch wood). This unit, as predicted, is shaping up to be the performance leader in this price range (and beyond), and my issues with the LCD quality control are gone in these recent purchases.

I am still interested in hearing from those that encounter these issues, because I'm finding it hard to believe I am the only one :)

As mentioned above, I have nothing but good things to say about B&H and how they handle customer service. Sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes it takes longer to sort out a problem than I'd like (especially given the volumes they handle), but as far as I'm concerned, all these things are well within tolerance level and they will continue to be my first choice when buying electronics (as long as the exchange rate stays favourable ;)

I could mention another New York store and how they differ in customer service, but won't embarrass them here. Suffice to say I won't be dealing with them again.



Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on March 25, 2010, 06:27:37 PM
This unit, as predicted, is shaping up to be the performance leader in this price range (and beyond),

Has anyone posted a comp using a high quality pre-amp and high end mics?   How about testing to verify how well it handles hot signals, especially at the lowest gain settings?

How the thing actually sounds using real mics is really the most important thing for many of us.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on March 25, 2010, 06:37:59 PM
what exactly do you mean by "real" mics?  I could try running Studio Projects C4's > BM2P+ > M10 to check it out if that qualifies next show I go to.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on March 25, 2010, 07:11:02 PM
what exactly do you mean by "real" mics?  I could try running Studio Projects C4's > BM2P+ > M10 to check it out if that qualifies next show I go to.

By real, I mean not internals.   And hopefully on a demanding source that has a complex soundstage.  A PA recording would be useful, but not as useful as stage lip, etc.   But a recording alone, with no other gear to compare, is hard to judge.

A good way to do the comp is with a v3 and a bitbucket.  That way, the built-in a/d in the v3 could be directly compared to the m10, and on the same song.  I think the UA5 would allow the same style of comp - digi to one recorder, analog to another.  Though I am less familiar with how the ua5 and bmp+ ua5 sound.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on March 25, 2010, 07:17:46 PM
Freelunch,
Sounds like you have very specific concerns and needs/wants that can pretty much only be answered and assessed by you, right?

It surprises me you don't just buy the unit and assess things yourself. What have you got to lose? If you don't like it, return it.
If you do, keep it. Seems to me you have been curious about this thing for a while.

If your assessment takes a while and you pass the return date for the store, sell it. I doubt you'd even lose $50 - and you'd have every performance question answered on your own terms, in your own time.
Again, what have you got to lose?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on March 25, 2010, 08:21:12 PM
Yeah...I don't have a V3.  I generally do not run stage lip unless it is an all instrumental band and then I would run my DPA 4061 omnis and not run anything through the BP2P+.

Sounds like tekdroid may have the right idea in having you pick one up or finding someone that has the specific gear you are looking to compare.  ???
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on March 25, 2010, 11:14:25 PM
Are you talking about line-in operation?  If so, the best test would be simply running a CD player line-out into it, using a familiar CD (eg Dark Side of the Moon I guess) and then you'd have a source of known quality to compare with.  My view is that the chances of hearing significant differences between almost any portable recorder's line inputs these days are close to zero.  The only way to check whether the difference relates to the use of different sources or the use of different recorders is to use a known source.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: EvilEye on March 27, 2010, 12:37:09 PM

I love mine.  $274 from B&H / no tax / no shipping / free sony case.
build quality is great, imo, super easy to use.  sure, I'd like a couple
more features, a more rugged case, whatever, but really.....we're talking $300.
I paid twice that for my Sony D8 DAT - also my  Fostex FR2LE.

here's a stealth job, AT853>Battery Box>m10.  I didn't even have to
read the manual.

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=294595
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on March 27, 2010, 01:29:37 PM
Freelunch,
Sounds like you have very specific concerns and needs/wants that can pretty much only be answered and assessed by you, right?

I don't think my emphasis on how good a recorder actually sounds compared to other products is all that unique.   Your comment that it is "shaping up to be the performance leader" made me hope someone had posted a comp that actually establishes that.  At some point we'll have enough recordings to establish how good the m10 actually is.

Quote
It surprises me you don't just buy the unit and assess things yourself. What have you got to lose? If you don't like it, return it.
If you do, keep it. Seems to me you have been curious about this thing for a while.

There is a big difference between a recorder being very good and actually being "better".  I don't jump on bandwagons unless I have a solid reason.  The low noise floor specs of the m10 are very encouraging, but that alone does not assure great sound.


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on March 27, 2010, 01:32:02 PM
Are you talking about line-in operation?  If so, the best test would be simply running a CD player line-out into it, using a familiar CD (eg Dark Side of the Moon I guess) and then you'd have a source of known quality to compare with.  My view is that the chances of hearing significant differences between almost any portable recorder's line inputs these days are close to zero.

We've done a lot of these comps here, and I don't want to take this thread in an off-topic "best ways to do a comp" direction.  Live sources (that have not been through an a/d) are best.   And while useful for some types of tests, commercial CDs are typically too compressed and processed to be entirely relevant.  The v3 comp scenario is very good. I was reminded that the psp2 has balanced and unbalanced outs.  So a recorder like the 722 could be run on the balanced outs, and compared with a handheld on the unbalanced.

And regarding hearing differences between portable recorder line in..  The differences are typically easily heard, especially on good playback.  What I want is 7xx quality a/d performance (or better).  On challenging material, the gap between the handhelds and the 7xx is still quite significant.  And the sound quality differences between the various handhelds can also be significant.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: aaronji on March 27, 2010, 01:53:31 PM
I'd be curious to see the results of those types of comparisons also.  But expecting a $275 recorder to match the performance of a $1500 pre (V3) or a (nearly) $2000 recorder (SD702) is setting a pretty high bar!  Not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think Sony designed this thing to compete with that type of really high-end gear...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: illconditioned on March 27, 2010, 07:45:02 PM
I'd be curious to see the results of those types of comparisons also.  But expecting a $275 recorder to match the performance of a $1500 pre (V3) or a (nearly) $2000 recorder (SD702) is setting a pretty high bar!  Not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't think Sony designed this thing to compete with that type of really high-end gear...

While it may not be as good as a professional device, the difference between retail and pro gear is getting narrower.
What I can say is the mics will make way more difference than the recorder, so don't let the recorder get in the way until you've got the best mics possible.
I can also say that there are not "glitches" in the analog section of the Sony products.  You can turn the gain way up and there will be no buzzes, hums or beeps.  And the self noise is low.
I've been tempted to get a V3 or something and I'm always thinking, I could spend the money instead on a good set of mics.
My next project is to try some 1/2" omni "measurement mics", namely ACO-pacific capsules.  Apparantly these are some of the best sounding mics out there, used by several companies for classical music recording.

  Richard
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on March 27, 2010, 09:07:37 PM

I don't think my emphasis on how good a recorder actually sounds compared to other products is all that unique.
I don't think it's unique either, but your demands on how it's tested are.

For the past few months I've seen some posts of yours in M10 threads and saying things to the tune of m10 being "an unknown quantity" and how nobody's ever done a proper comparison, essentially to your standards.

If your interest was genuine, am I being unfair in suggesting that you would have bought one? Because the impression I get is you like poo-pooing something you have not heard. It comes across in your tone. If I am wrong on this, please don't take offence. Your position pretty much is that other devices may be better than the PCM-M10 because it hasn't been tested to my standards yet, right?

  Your comment that it is "shaping up to be the performance leader" made me hope someone had posted a comp that actually establishes that. 
Basically, you are suggesting "where's the proof?" here, and you expect it on a silver platter. All so you can make a (presumably) safe purchase? Am I right? Is that the main concern?

"This unit, as predicted, is shaping up to be the performance leader in this price range (and beyond)..."
I stand by that 100%. Plus I wouldn't want to say anything to the contrary to shatter your illusions that I am from Sony.

That's my opinion, yes. After buying several units and hearing them, yes. Do you have evidence or opinions to the contrary? If so, share them if you are that way inclined. Test them to your exacting standards if you want.

But really it's getting tiring hearing from a person who constantly suggests the unit has not been tested properly yet doesn't do anything to have his seemingly genuine concerns about the unit answered. And you know these questions can only really be answered by you, right?

I still can't escape the feeling that if you had genuine interest, you would have bought one by now at no or very little risk to your financial position.

At some point we'll have enough recordings to establish how good the m10 actually is.
At some point we'll all be dead, too. As I said before, what is stopping you from answering every question in your head about the PCM-M10?

There is a big difference between a recorder being very good and actually being "better".  I don't jump on bandwagons unless I have a solid reason.  The low noise floor specs of the m10 are very encouraging, but that alone does not assure great sound.

Your tests will alone will answer all your questions and you know this. Third parties on the web posting their samples won't. You will never be satisfied. YOUR tests will with your own equipment.

Again, it's unclear to me whether you even have a genuine interest in the model (because if you did, I'd think you would have bought one by now, made your own tests and made your own decisions). It's been a good few months that the unit has been selling now. It's a known quantity.

Love,
Your Sony employee

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on March 27, 2010, 09:41:54 PM
I think people may have a hard time believing something made by a manufacture from anything from microphones to televisions to game consoles to audio recorders would be able to make just ONE of those things very well. I had no interest in the m10 until last week specifically because of this but after reading many positive reviews and very few known negative things, I decided to try it out for myself and get one.

I wholeheartedly agree with Richard on the fact that the mics would make the recording difference (and mic placement) so spending $1500 on a pre-amp like the v3 is not something I see myself doing. On top of that, the v3 has digiout and the specs for the m10 don't seem to have any kind of digi in, indicating a digi pre-amp is a waste of cash money...in MY opinion.

Now for a real question regarding the m10.
The internal 4 gig is a real nice feature of this device. It's not some 512 MB chip or even 2 gigs, its 4 damn gigs! at the highest recording available on this device, you'll be able to get just under two hours. I also like the fact it doesn't take the proprietary memory cards like its older brother, D50. The m10 can take those tiny (and they are smaller than some people's finger nails) SD cards. Who uses what size of what brand?

I don't think we will be able to conclusively conclude that the m10 is perfect for everyone. It seems half the people on this board like mods (specifically of the fr2le) and others (like me) don't really hear the difference. We hear different things that may or may not be there so just listen to the music and the lyrics.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: gregh on March 28, 2010, 05:12:55 AM
Just to pop in with my ignorant take - I tend to be with ozpeter (and maybe others) in thinking that 'even the bad stuff is good' nowadays (perhaps that's my age). I have the m10. It is quiet enough and the freq response is fine. No doubt for a great deal more money you can get better, but I have no circumstance where that quality difference will be critical to the success of a project. Of course others are in a different position and I appreciate their concerns.
Regardless, one aspect of the m10 that is truly convenient is the battery life. I noticed someone worryiing about compatibilityof the (USA) power supply. Don't worry, throw it away, the batteries seemingly last forever. This single aspect of battery life (in combination with the memory size) changes the way I am recording - I don't have to worry about starting the recorder in a timely fashion as I wait for the right moment  - I can leave ithe m10 running from the moment I leave home and edit later. It really doesn't matter. One can be recording using an 'always on' strategy. I have found this aspect of the M10 incredibly liberating - as someone who primarily records ambient domestic and urban soundscapes.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on March 28, 2010, 10:31:45 AM
Is there a way to shut off the green lights that illuminate when  recording....they go red if you clip? Also, can the red record button be turned off as well? 
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: aaronji on March 28, 2010, 10:55:16 AM
^^^ I don't have it in front of me, but I think it is Main Menu > Detail Menu > LED > Off.  This does the level/over LEDs, the little orange "Accessing" light, and the record/pause/play buttons.  I think...

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on March 28, 2010, 03:39:01 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on March 28, 2010, 06:44:41 PM
There are a few features of the M10 which remind me more than a little of my wife's little Sony speech recorder.  That device has no "off" switch, and like the M10, it sits in sleep mode indefinitely, ready for use the moment you press any button.  The "off" switch on the Sony is in practice merely the means of preventing it from starting on its own if squashed in the bag or whatever.  I half wonder whether the M10 is an upgrade from their voice recorders (in design/development terms) rather than a downgrade from the D50 etc.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on March 29, 2010, 01:59:23 PM

I don't think my emphasis on how good a recorder actually sounds compared to other products is all that unique.
I don't think it's unique either, but your demands on how it's tested are.

For the past few months I've seen some posts of yours in M10 threads and saying things to the tune of m10 being "an unknown quantity" and how nobody's ever done a proper comparison, essentially to your standards.

You seem to want to frame this as obscure testing.  It isn't about "testing". It is about making live music recordings that can be compared with other gear.

If you take the time to go and read past threads about comparing gear, you'll see they are TS standards; not my standards.  We've collectively done a Lot of gear comparisons on this site (I've posted a lot of mine), and we have extensively discussed various methodologies.  At this point it is fairly clear what level of rigor will allow solid conclusions.   Some of the handhelds have been rigorously compared here, the comp files have been posted, and people have voted on what they like best.

There are a lot of newbies who come here looking for advice on what to buy.  To assert that some particular product is a "performance leader", without offering anything to support that position, seems hollow.   What other recorders have you compared it against, and under what circumstances?   Maybe I just missed the post with the link to your recordings.

Quote
If your interest was genuine, am I being unfair in suggesting that you would have bought one?

Buy every new handheld recorder that comes out?   Edirol, Tascam, Marantz, Zoom, Sony, Olympus?   And how many models from those vendors?  I like to record live music with the best results possible, not fanboy obsess over consumer electronics, or specific manufacturers.  Most of us already have gear that works very well.  We have not been loyally shuffling and transferring sony minidiscs, while patiently waiting for them to catch up with the rest of the industry.

Quote
Your position pretty much is that other devices may be better than the PCM-M10 because it hasn't been tested to my standards yet, right?

Until we hear and vote on the comparative recordings, it is just speculation..
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: yousef on March 29, 2010, 07:13:34 PM
I'm as excited as anybody about the M10, give or take a digital input, and will very likely purchase one in the coming months but I completely understand Freelunch's reservations.

It seems that a lot of people are expressing the opinion that it is indeed the great white wonder and that the weight of this commentary is in danger of becoming accepted wisdom without ever being put to a proper test. Speaking as someone who has been burned before by this sort of thing, I can completely understand why someone would want objective proof that an item not only sounded good but actually met the stated specs before putting down their money.

Particularly when we're on a messageboard where the same equipment can inspire polar opposite opinions...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: tekdroid on March 29, 2010, 08:23:17 PM
You seem to want to frame this as obscure testing.

I'm not framing anything as obscure testing. Any way you want to test it is fine by me.

I am simply stating that at least 5 months have passed since the unit has been selling (correct me if I'm wrong but I think it started selling in early Oct) and your results (that you seemingly want) aren't out there yet, and you are doing nothing to get them, but you seem to love talking about how it essentially hasn't been tested rigorously.

I haven't compared this recorder with others at all. Based on its features and performance (remember, I've bought it), my opinion is exactly as I wrote it. Do you have any performance evidence it is worse than something in its price range? See, if I didn't buy a recorder and never heard it, why would I continually go into threads about that recorder and state it may not be all that? I can compare its features and design to others, but why would I continually state it may not be all that in the audio department?

I have bought the unit, am extremely pleased with it and can state my opinions (as can many others). On the other hand, you like to continually suggest it hasn't been tested rigorously. After so many months on sale, when do you think those results are going to be forthcoming? Who will be handing these to you?

Why don't the most vocal about these results lay down some cash and put their performance concerns to rest? If you are not interested in a recorder, give it a rest. If you are, then how 'bout breaking new ground by testing the unit rigorously?

Again, it's been 5+ months the unit has been selling and you seem to have some anti-Sony agenda with no interest whatsoever in actually doing the tests you are so vocal about, even when there's zero or very little risk to your finances.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Todd R on March 30, 2010, 11:19:18 AM
I don't have an m10, so I can't do any comps on it.  But I've got a D50 and if I dig around, I'm sure I have comparisons in my files, and I can certainly make some.

I had the V3, 702, and D50 all at the same time.  I might have a comparison of the D50 a/d to the 702.  I'll check, though it is probably unlikely since I generally ran V3 analog in to the 702 and digital in to the D50, so I'd be comparing the V3 a/d to the 702.  Again, I'll have to check, but I may have the D50 a/d compared to the Oade mod R44 a/d, as I now have the R44 and D50.  I'm not positive, but I may have run PSP2 mini-out to D50 and XLR out to the R44.  If I don't already have them, I can easily make them since both my PSP2 and Naiant littlebox have dual analog outputs.

While this doesn't get at a controlled comp for the M10 itself, a month or so ago Ehren and I did a controlled comp of the D50 vs the m10 at a Govt Mule show using the dual outputs of his littlebox.  We haven't gotten together yet to exchange each others files, but that should be a very controlled comp of the D50 to the m10.  I guess using the transitive property, we could at least compare the D50 to the Oade R44 and the m10 to the D50.

Ehren and I in future when we're recording together can easily do another comp of the M10 directly to the Oade R44.  With preamps like the littlebox, Lunatec V2, and PSP2 all having dual analog outputs, I'd imagine it is only a matter of time before some controlled comps of the M10 to other recorders start to surface, though perhaps not exactly the V3>722 comp you're hoping for.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: xof on April 01, 2010, 12:39:49 PM
I am interested in the M10 for classical music. I am a violinist and will use this mostly for solo and chamber music performances. My experience with previous flash recorders (HR-09 and Zoom H2) is that the internal mic quality is not very good. The H2 sounds muddy and the HR-09 sounds tinny.

If I purchase mics based on the Sennheiser MKE-2 capsules eg. MM-HLSO  give me a better result? at $250 they promise more clarity and quality, but I am concerned because the Equivalent noise level in the Senns is pretty high (27db a weighted). Does anyone have any experience recording acoustic music with this deck and mics? The cello sample on Wingfieldaudio.com of the M10 sounds a little covered or filtered to my ears.

Please advise!



Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on April 01, 2010, 01:59:50 PM
I am a violinist and will use this mostly for solo and chamber music performances.   ...
The cello sample on Wingfieldaudio.com of the M10 sounds a little covered or filtered to my ears.

I suggest you start a thread to discuss your requirements in more detail.  The right mics are especially critical for that demanding application.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on April 01, 2010, 04:11:38 PM
... which he's now done at http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133938.0
Title: Re: new firmware?
Post by: rastasean on April 01, 2010, 10:16:23 PM
Just got the slick m10 today and it has firmware version 1.00. Is this the most current or do you guys have something higher?

I like the fact you don't necessarily need to turn it off because any button quickly wakes it up but is there way to reduce it from 10 minutes?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on April 02, 2010, 12:02:17 AM
how do you check which firmware you have?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on April 02, 2010, 12:04:23 AM
how do you check which firmware you have?

press and hold stop button on the standard screen.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on April 02, 2010, 12:04:47 AM
Firmware is 1.00 for all - apparently Sony don't usually do firmware upgrades on their recorders.  No, you can't change the sleep time.

I've left my sleeping for several weeks now and I notice the battery is about half empty according to the display.   So it will run down, slowly, in that mode.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on April 07, 2010, 06:11:45 PM
Anyone know if the Cross-Memory Recording feature starts a file seamlessly or not?  I know the 2GB File split is seamless just curious about the cross-memory recording.

Thanks
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rishio on April 15, 2010, 03:04:06 PM
Hi,

I just purchased the PCM-M10 and I noticed the "REC" button was stiffer than the other buttons. Just want to make sure I didn't get a defective unit. Does anyone else have the PCM-M10 and notice the rec button is stiffer than the others?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fransb on April 15, 2010, 03:31:51 PM
Does anyone else have the PCM-M10 and notice the rec button is stiffer than the others?

Mine seems to be somewhat stiffer as well. I noticed that not all buttons show the same resistance when being pushed.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CTjazzfanatic on April 16, 2010, 01:44:32 AM
I recorded my first concert tonight. I have not received my CA-14s yet, so I recorded with the internal mics. The show was William Parker-Hamid Drake-Evan Parker. I was seated in the third row. Since I am new to taping I wanted to get an idea of how comfortable I would feel. I simply had the PCM-M10 in my shirt pocket and enjoyed the show. It obviously is not an audiophile recording, but it gives me hope that I will be able to get a decent sound when I receive my mics and preamp.

Here is the last last piece performed if anyone has an interest.

http://rapidshare.com/files/376434364/WParker-HDrake-EParker_t05.flac (http://rapidshare.com/files/376434364/WParker-HDrake-EParker_t05.flac)

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on April 23, 2010, 02:29:11 PM
is $275 the best price around for a m10??
has anyone used the sony case that comes free from B+H?
is it worth paying tax in NY in order to get the case?
thanks
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on April 23, 2010, 02:33:27 PM
is $275 the best price around for a m10??
has anyone used the sony case that comes free from B+H?
is it worth paying tax in NY in order to get the case?
thanks

I bought mine from B&H and I think $275 was the price with case. The case is a durable hardshell. You could drop this off a one story building with no fear.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on April 23, 2010, 02:53:02 PM
is $275 the best price around for a m10??
has anyone used the sony case that comes free from B+H?
is it worth paying tax in NY in order to get the case?
thanks

$275 is the best price on B&H until like end of June. I haven't seen any of these m10s in the yard sale so I don't think people are selling them since they couldn't have had it very long at all.

The case is very nice and durable but it is not practical for the pocket so just take it out of the case and put the m10 in your pocket. The case has enough room for the recorder and memory cards...no batteries but with the incredible battery life, that won't be an issue.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on April 23, 2010, 10:07:42 PM
is this post from part 1 http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1697107#msg1697107
talking about recording at 16 vs 24, basically stating that in 24 bit you are recording 8 bits of noise
referring to using the internal mics?
if i go mics > littlebox > m10 is it still not worth going 24bit??
thanks

and thanks to those who answered about the price and case
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on April 23, 2010, 11:17:53 PM
I would go mics > littlebox > m10 (line) @ 24/48

I love this thing.  I've only had it a few weeks now but have taped probably 10 different sets and it is awesome.

I usually run DPA4061 > CA-9100 > M10 (Kine) @ 24/48...which is why I recommended it above.

And I did not see this mentioned anywhere...but I ran my preamp at full and the recording volume on the M10 @ 2.5 on the dial and the recording smokes! No distortion/excess noise, etc. that I could tell.

Somehwere someone mentioned keeping the recording dial at 5 - 6 for unity gain...but I think that only applies to going mic in.  Is that correct?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: johnw on April 24, 2010, 06:01:24 PM
No, unity gain would apply only to line in not mic in. If you are using an external preamp like the CA-9100 or littlebox and have the M10 at less than 5-6 (or whatever unity really is) then you are attenuating the signal coming from your preamp.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Dede2002 on April 24, 2010, 07:15:34 PM
No, unity gain would apply only to line in not mic in. If you are using an external preamp like the CA-9100 or littlebox and have the M10 at less than 5-6 (or whatever unity really is) then you are attenuating the signal coming from your preamp.

What he said  :coolguy:
Set you recorder at unity and control your levels with the preamp.
You'll have the best of both worlds.
Take care.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on April 24, 2010, 07:37:26 PM
No, unity gain would apply only to line in not mic in. If you are using an external preamp like the CA-9100 or littlebox and have the M10 at less than 5-6 (or whatever unity really is) then you are attenuating the signal coming from your preamp.

I believe that is an assumption based on the headphone output jack levels, so it may not be correct.

And, regadless, I haven't seen anyone post that they've tested what setting sounds best.  So from that perspective, "unity" is a fantasy.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: earmonger on April 25, 2010, 01:40:26 AM
Freelunch, I appreciate your theoretical rigor, but I trust guysonic.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=dac2c7d0169a44be714cbf8a13ea4ec8&topic=130924.30
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on April 25, 2010, 09:15:45 AM
I've said several times that if I take the output from devices claiming to produce standard level line output, the M10 needs to be set at about 4.  If you set it above that, then the output from the device feeding the M10 would have to be set to produce less than a standard line output level.  My recommendation would be to use 4 if connected to unknown equipment for the first time, then adjust from there in the light of experience.  You can do your own tests simply by connected the M10 to every device you can find around the place and see whether 4 works for you with them.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on April 25, 2010, 11:34:29 AM
does it really make much difference for recording shows?
if i have it at 4 and i am using the preamp to get levels i want or i have it at 6 and use the preamp for levels
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on April 25, 2010, 12:34:11 PM
Yes because you want to get as much gain from your preamp as possible
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on April 25, 2010, 12:52:08 PM
Yes because you want to get as much gain from your preamp as possible
correct, but i guess since no one knows for sure (i heard it was 5) is there going to be a huge difference in using 4, 5, 6
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on April 25, 2010, 02:03:46 PM
Like I posted up a fw responses I had my dial @ 2.5 - 3 with the preamp gain at full and it sounds great...nothing that I could tell while listening a nice pair of flat response studio monitoring headphones.

At least that is my experience...good luck
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: CatScan on April 26, 2010, 07:05:37 AM
Not sure if this has been asked before, but which speed ("Class") SDHC micro card should I use with the PCM-M10? I'm aware that higher speed cards alow for higher file transfers when put into a card reader, but I'm more concerned about the minimum speed requirements the M10 itself needs to capture audio.

Also, since I've just been using the internal memory of the unit and connecting a USB cable to it for transfers I'm wondering if it makes much difference to remove a memory card from it and put it in a card reader as opposed to just continuing with the USB cable method? The USB cable seems more practical and would offer less tear/wear on the card connector and plastic door (which seems rather flimsy).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on April 26, 2010, 11:06:45 AM
I use an ADATA 8gb Class 6 MicroSDHC card.  Picked it up at Frys Electronics for like 13 bucks or so a few weeks back.

No issues whatsoever with the card.  The sales guys at Frys said that the Class of the card really pertains to video capture more that audio but I went with a class 6 card just in case I want to use it for other stuff.  I figured it couldn't hurt.

I also use the USB cable because its easier for me to do so.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: aaronji on April 26, 2010, 12:46:03 PM
When I tried it out, the card reader was ~4 times faster than USB (6 min 35 sec versus 28 min for a full 8 GB card).

Class 2 cards should be OK even at 24/96.  Assuming a non-fragmented card that performs anywhere near spec...
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: johnw on April 26, 2010, 04:16:31 PM
No, unity gain would apply only to line in not mic in. If you are using an external preamp like the CA-9100 or littlebox and have the M10 at less than 5-6 (or whatever unity really is) then you are attenuating the signal coming from your preamp.

I believe that is an assumption based on the headphone output jack levels, so it may not be correct.

And, regadless, I haven't seen anyone post that they've tested what setting sounds best.  So from that perspective, "unity" is a fantasy.

Does the tape out on the 722 attenuate the signal at all? I could record to the 722 and plug in the M10 to the tape out for a comparison.

EDIT: looks like it attenuates the signal by -10dB. I don't have any TA3 cables or I'd try the analog out.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on April 26, 2010, 04:26:42 PM
Does the tape out on the 722 attenuate the signal at all? I could record to the 722 and plug in the M10 to the tape out for a comparison.

EDIT: looks like it attenuates the signal by -10dB. I don't have any TA3 cables or I'd try the analog out.

Unfortunately the analog outputs on the 7xx all go through the a/d > d/a stage.  So while that could still be useful and interesting, it isn't the signal path we'd prefer.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on May 01, 2010, 09:07:45 PM
Can I get clarification on settings please
Mice > littlebox > m10
The mic send hi/low doesn't matter, correct
The record level manual/auto ??
DPC - off
LCF - off
Limiter - off

Anything else I need to check/ be aware of?
Thanks
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on May 01, 2010, 09:24:17 PM
Use manual dial...and I run mine with the limiter on just in case...but that is a preference thing I guess

Everything else looks right.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on May 01, 2010, 10:29:58 PM
thanks
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on May 07, 2010, 01:27:11 PM
i see a few times where people had slight trouble getting a card to be seen by the m10
can anyone give me the names of cards that worked fine or ones that had some trouble?
also what might be a good price - i have seen 4gb for $30, not sure if thats good or not
thanks in advance
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on May 07, 2010, 01:40:51 PM
i see a few times where people had slight trouble getting a card to be seen by the m10
can anyone give me the names of cards that worked fine or ones that had some trouble?
also what might be a good price - i have seen 4gb for $30, not sure if thats good or not
thanks in advance

the trouble is understanding the diagram in the manual. insert with the gold plates UP and down.

I just got a 2 gig micro from target, lexar brand. I don't remember the price, maybe $12.
4 gigs for $30 is high unless you're speaking of the sony memory chip thing and in that case--I have no idea.

this may still be a little high but it certainly beats $30 for 4 gigs (if you're speaking of micro sd)
http://www.buy.com/prod/sandisk-16gb-microsd-microsdhc/q/loc/111/209960002.html


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on May 07, 2010, 04:50:26 PM
I have an A-DATA 8gb microSDHC card I got from Frys a month or so ago for 17 bucks.

It works flawlessly
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on May 07, 2010, 11:30:09 PM
thanks guys
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: StuStu on May 17, 2010, 07:51:25 PM
Sorry if this has already been addressed...but, will it power my 4061's mic in? Thanks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on May 18, 2010, 02:08:54 AM
Sorry if this has already been addressed...but, will it power my 4061's mic in? Thanks.

Nope
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: StuStu on May 18, 2010, 08:44:55 AM
Sorry if this has already been addressed...but, will it power my 4061's mic in? Thanks.

Nope


Thanks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: AlphaDoug on May 29, 2010, 01:31:47 AM
Hi,

  Just recorded my first show!  Just did it with the M10 on my knee, about 3 rows back from the stage.  Small outdoor acoustic music festival.  (Meadowgrass in the Black Forest near Colorado Spring, Co).
I recorded it just sitting on my knee throughout each set, with the M10 set on manual, the level set to about 5, and the mic sensitivity at low.  Worked amazingly well.  The only thing I noticed is that I got a little bit of "mid bass bloom" if you know what I mean.  Is that normal?  Anyway, the quality was way better than it had any right to be, especially for a novice who has no idea what he is doing.  I'm really impressed with this thing!  In the future I will be getting some good mics and ancillary equipment, but for now, I'm happy.  If I knew how to post a song from each set I would put it up here for you all to enjoy.  Anyone care to enlighten me?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on May 29, 2010, 02:16:11 AM
Hi,

  Just recorded my first show!  Just did it with the M10 on my knee, about 3 rows back from the stage. 


nice going. enjoy!

cut a song out of the mix and then upload to something like rapidshare.com www.yousendit.com yousendit.com
we like flac files

once its done, you'll get a link, post it here.

have fun
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Napo on May 29, 2010, 02:27:52 AM
AlphaDoug,

if you mean 'bass boom', I noticed that too. When you get a good pair of external mic that would disappear.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: pafnuzzi on May 29, 2010, 05:03:00 AM
You should use a programm for post production which gives you the possibility to make the stereo seperation wider like wave lab for example. The wider stereo seperation will also clear up the highs...

pafnuzzi
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 29, 2010, 08:46:01 PM
"NCL Phase EQ" freeware VST seems to do the trick nicely.  http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-phase-eq/ 

I forget which was the best preset, but there's not many to try.  You can get a wider stereo image with less low-frequency clump in the centre.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Napo on May 30, 2010, 03:14:09 AM
Yes, try the present 'M/S Enhancement'
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on May 30, 2010, 08:01:59 AM
i see a few times where people had slight trouble getting a card to be seen by the m10
can anyone give me the names of cards that worked fine or ones that had some trouble?
also what might be a good price - i have seen 4gb for $30, not sure if thats good or not
thanks in advance

I have had lots of trouble having my Transcend 16 GB class 2 card recognized. Works perfectly but usually takes 3-4 tries to be recognized. I's not a problem at all for me though-I just leave it in the machine and use the machine as the card reader.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: BrotherRah on May 30, 2010, 09:31:39 AM
Ok,so I just picked up one of these and have been fooling around with it trying to get a feel for it.Is it me,my recorder or is something set wrong in regards to the speaker for playback I cant seem to get hardly any volume from it.Anyone know?I know most of the time headphones ware in order but sheesh you gotta hold the thing practically to your ear to hear it I expect more that that.Is his all I can expect?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Napo on May 30, 2010, 10:37:54 AM
unfortunately yes, it all you can get. The line out is excellent, though.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on May 30, 2010, 10:42:13 AM
You need to use headphones to really hear what's going on anyway, and the headphone amp is excellent. I guess they could have made the thing the size of a boom box and put a really great speaker in there, but you can't have everything....
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: BrotherRah on May 30, 2010, 01:20:48 PM
With the dpc feature I thought it would be different.Noodling around on the guitar and headphones dont mix.Yeah I know I bought it to record but that was part of the feature set that seemed kinda cool.Why even add that on without realtime practicality
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Tedley on May 30, 2010, 04:37:14 PM
I think the practicality is that you can do a fast check if you are getting something or anything at all recorded without plugging in earphones or in-ear phones. Certainly no good for playback or monitoring what is going on.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 30, 2010, 06:31:31 PM
It's not a loudspeaker, it's a headphone driver mounted in the case, and if held to the ear (like a headphone) with the playback volume set low (around '5' perhaps), it actually gives a surprisingly good result, in my estimation.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: BrotherRah on May 30, 2010, 07:10:17 PM
I can even begin to hear anything until about 16 or so
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 30, 2010, 10:26:16 PM
I was using an mp3 file ripped from a CD which would admittedly sound louder than your own recording (where you would have set the level conservatively and not be using compression etc).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: dactylus on May 31, 2010, 11:52:18 AM
is $275 the best price around for a m10??
has anyone used the sony case that comes free from B+H?
is it worth paying tax in NY in order to get the case?
thanks

$275 is the best price on B&H until like end of June. I haven't seen any of these m10s in the yard sale so I don't think people are selling them since they couldn't have had it very long at all.

The case is very nice and durable but it is not practical for the pocket so just take it out of the case and put the m10 in your pocket. The case has enough room for the recorder and memory cards...no batteries but with the incredible battery life, that won't be an issue.



$255 now at B&H with free shipping.   :)

(add to cart for the above price)

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on May 31, 2010, 07:06:55 PM
just got a sandisc 4gb class 2 works fine in tests
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: SPLASTiK on June 02, 2010, 07:54:22 PM
I'm tempted. I bought a used PCM-M1 in 2003 for around $250 and taped until 2008 when at a show for some reason it wasn't showing any levels when in record. Brought it home and nothing was on playback, put in another tape and wasn't playing back. Tried to eject the tape but it won't eject now and just makes some weird high pitched noise.

Been thinking about getting back in the game and getting the DAT repaired so I could use it again and transfer a few tapes I have laying around but I figure labor cost would be as much or more than buying a new tapeless recorder. Seems pretty similar to the old M1, though I'd prefer no mics... and digi in would be nice, though not a big deal. At under $300 with shipping (no free shipping to AK) looks like a great replacement for my Sonic Studios mic setup.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on June 02, 2010, 08:42:24 PM
I'm tempted. I bought a used PCM-M1 in 2003 for around $250 and taped until 2008 when at a show for some reason it wasn't showing any levels when in record. Brought it home and nothing was on playback, put in another tape and wasn't playing back. Tried to eject the tape but it won't eject now and just makes some weird high pitched noise.

Misload of the deck.  I'd be wary of any used M1 unless it went into Prodigital for a tuneup.

The M10 will not misload.  :)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Gordon on June 16, 2010, 12:49:40 AM
besides space is there any disadvantage to recording to the internal memory vs the card?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on June 16, 2010, 07:33:51 AM
besides space is there any disadvantage to recording to the internal memory vs the card?

None other than the mentioned space limitation.  Will need extra memory if you tape festivals.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: swordfish on June 16, 2010, 08:32:55 AM
No, unity gain would apply only to line in not mic in. If you are using an external preamp like the CA-9100 or littlebox and have the M10 at less than 5-6 (or whatever unity really is) then you are attenuating the signal coming from your preamp.

What he said  :coolguy:
Set you recorder at unity and control your levels with the preamp.
You'll have the best of both worlds.
Take care.

I just picked up Sony a M 10...unfortnunately I can't find the unity gain info in the thread...on my Edirol its 40.  But i read different numbers for the the M10 in the thread/board  it varies from 2.5 up to 4-5- or 6.

Takling about using a preamp CA 9100/Tiny box ---> line in ....hoping the show/source is loud enough to control the level with the preamp and leaving the rec at unity gain.

Any help is highly appreciated.

swordfish
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Cheesecadet on June 16, 2010, 01:24:33 PM
I think it's 5...I read that on a few different boards.  2.5 sounds way low to me and this was the first mention that I have heard of that number.  I keep mine at 5 and control with preamp and recordings sound great.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: willndmb on June 16, 2010, 01:33:50 PM
when i get a chance i am going to make a white nosie file and use my svu1 to see what i get for unity because i have seen from 2.5 to 6
most seems to say 4 that i read
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Gordon on June 16, 2010, 02:01:22 PM
I asked Cheesecadet this but just wanted others opinions.  I'm borrowing a 4061 > 9100 > m10 for a low pro show this weekend.  it will have to be a "set it and forget" thing.  actually set it before hand and hope for the best ;)

so I know it varies by type of music etc but how would others do this?  it is sort of singer songwriter, not really rocking or loud but not very quite either.  loudest part will be vocals I'm sure.  if it were open I would go 30-35 on the v3.  so thinking a full 20 on the pre and then what on the m10?  5 or so?  but that would only get me 20dbs correct?  again I'm gonna have to have it set up and rolling before the show with no chance to bump the levels if needed.

I know I can bump them in post but want to as little as possible.  I'm not a low pro guy but have done a few and one with a sax > r9 the levels were very low and when I bumped them in wavelab (it was 24 bit) there was very noticeable noise.  so much so I had to run it through a de noiser plugin.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Napo on June 16, 2010, 03:55:09 PM
Gordon,

wihich denoiser plug-in did you use?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Gordon on June 16, 2010, 04:13:55 PM
the standard denoiser plugin in wavelab.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ts on June 18, 2010, 11:27:48 AM
Anyone using battery powered mics directly into the M10? Mic-in is the way to go I guess.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on June 18, 2010, 11:45:26 AM
Anyone using battery powered mics directly into the M10? Mic-in is the way to go I guess.

illconditioned loves the mic in. Says even some plug in power mics work great with it including AT 853's and CA-11's.

As to unity gain, guysonic tested it some time ago and says that it is 6.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ts on June 18, 2010, 01:01:46 PM
Anyone using battery powered mics directly into the M10? Mic-in is the way to go I guess.

illconditioned loves the mic in. Says even some plug in power mics work great with it including AT 853's and CA-11's.

As to unity gain, guysonic tested it some time ago and says that it is 6.

Sorry, I meant mics that have batteries in the mic body. Think stock Nakamichi. No external batt box. Not sure unity gain applies here? Thanks.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on June 18, 2010, 02:03:09 PM
Mic in is good. Should work great with battery powered mics.

Unity gain was in response to a previous question in this thread.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: kingtut38 on June 19, 2010, 11:31:09 PM
Is it just me or does the M10 sound a little sterile?  I've been using a h4n for awhile now and I got the m10 a few days ago.  I've got some of Chris's binaural mics and some ultra low noise binaural mics from pipmics.com.  The h4n sounds a lot warmer and seems to have more space.  Maybe I'm hearing the accuracy of the m10 vs the inaccuracy of the h4n.  Just curious if anyone else noticed.  Nothing a little eq won't fix.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on June 20, 2010, 03:35:13 AM
Is it just me or does the M10 sound a little sterile?  I've been using a h4n for awhile now and I got the m10 a few days ago.  I've got some of Chris's binaural mics and some ultra low noise binaural mics from pipmics.com.  The h4n sounds a lot warmer and seems to have more space.  Maybe I'm hearing the accuracy of the m10 vs the inaccuracy of the h4n.  Just curious if anyone else noticed.  Nothing a little eq won't fix.
This is a common perception when one is used to the high coloration of one recorder/microphones verses the accuracy of a more honest accurate devices. 

Had the same impression of the coloration of the Edirol R-09HR mic input verses the same deck/mic using an accurate preamplifier going Line in bypassing the deck's less accurate mic preamp. 

This was part of the tests done in TS thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=109703.0;all
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: kingtut38 on June 20, 2010, 12:37:08 PM
I thought that could be the case.  It will take some time though.  My pseudo-binaural recordings now sound a little lifeless to me where before they didn't.  I've set en eq preset that helps a bit.  The only reason I really sold the h4n was the noise factor.  The m10 is so much quieter especially using these little electret mics (if you can find one with low enough noise)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ts on June 21, 2010, 09:26:06 AM
Mic in is good. Should work great with battery powered mics.

Unity gain was in response to a previous question in this thread.

Great. I didn't think unity gain applied here. Since my 700's have batterys in the mic itself, I should probably turn off plug-in power on mic-in.

I don't have the mic cables yet so I haven't done any in home testing, but I'm thinking these mics may even work well with line-in.

*update* got the mic cables. did some testing with the M10. getting really low levels. going mic in plug in power off. i switched mic sens to high and that helped. still very low levels. gain is up to 10 and just reaching -12db with home stereo cranked.  again, the setup is nak700's>M10. the 700's are running on the 6V internal batterys.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: listener2 on June 22, 2010, 09:13:59 PM
ts, I just got my Sony PCM-M10 today and tested it out and it is one fine small portable unit.  I am wondering if your low recording level readings is because perhaps you have your M10 recording gain level set to "Automatic" instead of "Manual"?  There is a little switch underneath the unit on the side by the record level knob.  Set it to "Manual" and you should have tons of gain for your mic input.

I made a couple of test recordings with my low sensitivity Countryman B3 mics using the M10's internal mic powering.  Damm fine accurate recording quality sound I must say.
What do I have to compare it to and say such a rave?  I have its big brother the Sony PCM-D50 as well as a Sound Devices 702 recorder.  I also have an Edirol R-09.
The Sony recorder units are the best of them all.  Sound Devices 702, way over-rated for the money I spent on it.  The Sony D50 and M10 make just as good or better sounding recordings and have much better user interface controls.

For those on the fence on whether or not to get the Sony PCM-M10, I can tell you go for it!  Especially the price of it is so low!  I got mine for about $235 after Bing Instant cashback award from eBay! Unbeatable quality for the price. Nice!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: kingtut38 on June 22, 2010, 09:33:55 PM
I have been doing some pseudo-binaural recordings with my h4n and m10.  I am a hobbyist and amateur so I'm still learning about recording, audio, etc...  I initially wasn't impressed with the sony's sound.  I did think the omni mics noise levels were excellent though.  At first I missed the warm sound of the h4n and posted a question asking others what their opinions were.  Since then I've made several other recordings with the m10.

I initially had my m10 set to high sensitivity.  With my Church binaurals and my binaurals from pipmics.com my was recording setting was around 1.5 to 2.  This is to record movement, spoken word, and ambiance.  I really did not think the m10  sounded anywhere close to my h4n.  Maybe more accurate but not more pleasing and realistic.

I've since changed my setting to low sensitivity and cranked the m10 up to 4 or 5, with no appreciable noise difference I might add, and it sounds much better.  Smooth, realistic, and focused reaching the same levels.  I'm used to my outboard preamps having a sweet spot but I was under the assumption that these recorders would sound close to the same at most settings with noise being the major effect one way or the other. 

Anyway, sounds great now.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on June 22, 2010, 09:56:32 PM
The Sony recorder units are the best of them all.  Sound Devices 702, way over-rated for the money I spent on it.  The Sony D50 and M10 make just as good or better sounding recordings and have much better user interface controls.

You're the first I've heard say the d50 is as good or better sounding than the 7xx.  Same for the m10.  I look forward to hearing that difference in a recording.  On what sort of source material do you base your conclusions?

I was just reading some of your older posts, and I see back in May you overloaded your 7xx with 4060's.   Were you in normal or low gain mode?   Have you tried them in line-in mode?

Also the DPA 4060's are so sensitive that they will overload my Sound Devices 702 preamo stage with loud band music even when I set the Sound Devices 702 gain level to the absolute lowest level it can go to!
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on June 22, 2010, 10:29:16 PM
did some testing with the M10. getting really low levels. going mic in plug in power off. i switched mic sens to high and that helped. still very low levels. gain is up to 10 and just reaching -12db with home stereo cranked.  again, the setup is nak700's>M10. the 700's are running on the 6V internal batterys.

Amazing - those must be some truly insensitive mics!


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: listener2 on June 22, 2010, 10:50:37 PM
Anyone using battery powered mics directly into the M10? Mic-in is the way to go I guess.
ts, I am not sure exactly what you are asking but if you mean a mic that has its own battery power and does not require PIP from the recorder, I just tested the Sony M10 with my Audio Technica AT-8022 stereo condenser mic plugged into the Mic Input jack with Sony M10 mic plug-in-power "off".  I had tons of gain with it.  I only set the record level control to "4" to match the same level I get with the M10's internal built-in mics set at "3" recording a fairly loud home theater stereo system playing jazz station from my cable service music channel.

I think you must have had your M10 record gain set to automatic gain control = "on".  Turn it off and you should get much mic input gain.  (unless of course your particular self powered mics are extremely low output or defective?)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: guysonic on June 23, 2010, 02:14:11 AM
The M10 (like most small DAT/MD/flash decks) has ONLY one really good sounding gain setting in "LOW" or -20 dB (same sensitivity setting named differently). 

Using any of these in (20 dB) boosted mode (High" or 0 dB atten setting) operates the mic input in an inaccurate and overload sensitive manner, but some may require this if using 16 bit depth, recording voice lectures at a great distance using a very low output dynamic type mic, and not caring one bit about the recording quality.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on June 23, 2010, 05:42:43 AM
The M10 (like most small DAT/MD/flash decks) has ONLY one really good sounding gain setting in "LOW" or -20 dB (same sensitivity setting named differently). 

Using any of these in (20 dB) boosted mode (High" or 0 dB atten setting) operates the mic input in an inaccurate and overload sensitive manner, but some may require this if using 16 bit depth, recording voice lectures at a great distance using a very low output dynamic type mic, and not caring one bit about the recording quality.

I didn't realize that. I thought a minus -20 dB setting was actually using an attenuator rather than that the 0 dB setting was boosted.

I assume this applies to the -12 dB setting of the Marantz PDM-620 as well (which also has a -24 setting)? People have reported good results using the -12 db to record loud music (maybe when using less sensitive mics like the Church Audio), but if its better to use -24 it would be good to know. 

I very rarely use mic input on a recorder, but would like to try the 620 for that due to it's higher plug in power voltage than most recorders.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ts on June 23, 2010, 07:43:06 AM
Anyone using battery powered mics directly into the M10? Mic-in is the way to go I guess.
ts, I am not sure exactly what you are asking but if you mean a mic that has its own battery power and does not require PIP from the recorder, I just tested the Sony M10 with my Audio Technica AT-8022 stereo condenser mic plugged into the Mic Input jack with Sony M10 mic plug-in-power "off".  I had tons of gain with it.  I only set the record level control to "4" to match the same level I get with the M10's internal built-in mics set at "3" recording a fairly loud home theater stereo system playing jazz station from my cable service music channel.

I think you must have had your M10 record gain set to automatic gain control = "on".  Turn it off and you should get much mic input gain.  (unless of course your particular self powered mics are extremely low output or defective?)

M10 set to manual. and yes mics do have a low output. not defective.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: kingtut38 on June 23, 2010, 10:13:41 AM
I was also unaware of the sensitivity characteristics of the mic input.  I had assumed it was an attenuator as well.  I guess that explains why my recordings are sounding a lot more natural now on the "low" setting.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Todd R on June 23, 2010, 11:17:09 AM
The Sony recorder units are the best of them all.  Sound Devices 702, way over-rated for the money I spent on it.  The Sony D50 and M10 make just as good or better sounding recordings and have much better user interface controls.

You're the first I've heard say the d50 is as good or better sounding than the 7xx.  Same for the m10.  I look forward to hearing that difference in a recording.  On what sort of source material do you base your conclusions?


I guess I think the D50 is in the same ballpark, but unfortunately I can't say with any certainty. :(

I had both the 722 and the 702, but outside of a handful of recordings done 7xx directly, I mainly recorded with V3> 7xx.  I probably did almost all my 722 recordings with V3 (digital) > 722 since I liked the V3 and didn't trust that I'd prefer the 722 A/D over the V3.

By the time I downgraded from 722 > 702, I started recording a lot of shows with V3 (analog) > 702.  There are probably a number of shows I also did a back up of V3 (digital) > D50 so I could dig up some good comps of the V3 A/D stage vs the 702 A/D.  But I never recorded V3 (analog) > D50. >:(  Very stupid -- wish I had while I had all that equipment.

Anyway, to the point, I ditched the V3 and 702, got a PSP2, Oade R44 and a pair of Gefells.  So for 2ch I changed from V3 (analog) > 702 to PSP2 > Sony D50.  Too many variables changing at once, but I like the PSP2 > D50 combo at least as much as the V3 > 702 combo.  Some things about the new combo better, some not as good.  In a blind test I have no idea which recorder + A/D I'd like better, the D50 or the 702, but the D50 does have a very nice A/D stage. A tad on the darker side, esp compared to the V3 A/D, but very nice nonetheless.  I've had the SBM1, modSBM1, Apogee AD500e, Lunatec V3, as well as the internal A/D of the 7xx recorders, and the D50 A/D definitely ranks up there -- no slouch for sure.  (Oh, and owned the G-P ADC20 and used the Zefiro in-box a number of times, those A/D don't even make the ranking. :P )

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on June 23, 2010, 01:52:46 PM
M10 set to manual. and yes mics do have a low output. not defective.

I assume you mean *those particular mics* have a low output. 

(The M10 registers much higher levels with the  mics I use)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on June 23, 2010, 03:51:09 PM
The M10 (like most small DAT/MD/flash decks) has ONLY one really good sounding gain setting in "LOW" or -20 dB (same sensitivity setting named differently). 

What?  The m10 doesn't sound great on every setting?

That's funny...  And entirely expected.  I keep harping on the importance of testing *what sounds best* but not everyone seems to appreciate the importance of "how it sounds" vs. the specs they read, or what they were told by someone on the internet.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: listener2 on June 23, 2010, 06:12:50 PM

You're the first I've heard say the d50 is as good or better sounding than the 7xx.  Same for the m10.  I look forward to hearing that difference in a recording.  On what sort of source material do you base your conclusions?
I don't have anything I can post up for you to hear at this time.  But to clarify my point, I am not putting down the Sound Devices 702 sound quality per se, but rather in comparison to the cost and all the hupla that Sound Devices units are the very best you can get, the little newer Sony recorders are in the same league and for a lot less money.  And they are smaller and more portable and have longer battery life and better ergonomic controls than the SD 702.  I've held the Sound Devices in the highest regards (and still do) for all the time that I've had it, but when I got these new little Sony units and saw and heard how good they compared to the SD 702, it made me regret spending so much money on a huge unit like that.  But the SD 702 still makes high quality quiet recordings.  I've only used it with the phantom powered mic inputs.  I wrote to Sound Devices support a few times telling them how awkward and touchy their record gain level control knobs were and got no satisfactory answer. The controls are way too touchy to adjust in .1 DB level increments!  Try to change gain for example from 48.5 DB to 48. 9 DB by turning the record level knob.. it takes a little turning motion to wake up the digital detection circuit and then the levels jump in huge increments such that you cannot easily turn it up by .1 DB or even 1 DB without overshoot and undershoot.  Painful and antagonizing.  I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned that aspect of the controls before on any thread! Also the headphone amp output has tons of hiss noise.  It is way too noisey for a high end device that it is categorized as.  Sony's little recorders however don't have these annoyances.
Quote
I was just reading some of your older posts, and I see back in May you overloaded your 7xx with 4060's.   Were you in normal or low gain mode?   Have you tried them in line-in mode?
I was in normal gain mode when I noticed how easily the DPA 4060 mics overloaded the SD702 inputs.  I switched the SD702 to low mic gain setting and turned the level control gain all the way as low as it could go in order to record a memorial day parade with marching bands going by.  The record gain level was set as low as it would allow (I think that was about number 9) showing on the display.  I got a very low recording with the loudest peaks of the bass drums marching by at times just below the max clipping point.  So got a good recording of the entire dynamic range but of course the quiet parts of the parade are way, way low.  Normalizing such a recording with wide dynamic range swings just does not cut it.  Hardly improves it.  I have not tried them in line input mode.  From my experiences of many years in audio electronics, I just don't like the change in sound characteristics when feeding low level mics into a line input. Just something about the impedance mismatch probably that messes with the sound.  I'd rather use an external preamp to bring it up to line level and then plug it into the line inputs.  Sounds better that way to me. Anyway, remember, I am not saying that the Sound Devices 702 is not as good sounding nor high quality as the new Sony units, I am just saying in contrasting the units, the Sony units are a way much better buy.  Granted you don't have P48 phantom powering nor balanced inputs (unless you buy an expensive XLR phantom Power adapter, which like the nut that I am, I did too.).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on June 23, 2010, 06:43:30 PM
But to clarify my point, I am not putting down the Sound Devices 702 sound quality per se, but rather in comparison to the cost and all the hupla that Sound Devices units are the very best you can get, the little newer Sony recorders are in the same league and for a lot less money.

You could make that generalization about a lot of small recorders.  Though, in contrast, I find the 7xx very ergonomic, and extremely well thought out and engineered.   I mean, come on; the M10 can't even lock the exposed gain knob, has no digi in or out, etc.  It's a little silly to even compare them seriously.   Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but to suggest the 7xx are "hupla" is just so far from reality.  And in terms of service and support for the m10, there really isn't any.  It's more of a disposable.  I can call the president of Sound Devices and discuss concerns or features with him.

Quote
I wrote to Sound Devices support a few times telling them how awkward and touchy their record gain level control knobs were and got no satisfactory answer. The controls are way too touchy to adjust in .1 DB level increments!  Try to change gain for example from 48.5 DB to 48. 9 DB by turning the record level knob.. it takes a little turning motion to wake up the digital detection circuit and then the levels jump in huge increments such that you cannot easily turn it up by .1 DB or even 1 DB without overshoot and undershoot.  I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned that aspect of the controls before on any thread!

I never had issues with getting the gain exactly where I wanted it.  I think it was not mentioned in threads because nobody else has an issue with it.  A change of .1dB?  I wonder why anyone would need that.   How is that requirement now satisfied by the M10?  What other device provides that detailed gain control?  Does the m10 tell you how many db you are adding?  I think you could have set the gain via the menu (and maybe Clink), though I always used the knobs.

Quote
Also the headphone amp output has tons of hiss noise.  It is way too noisey for a high end device that it is categorized as.

Tons?  I always found the headphone amp extremely powerful and never had any issues with noise.

Quote
I was in normal gain mode when I noticed how easily the DPA 4060 mics overloaded the SD702 inputs.  I switched the SD702 to low mic gain setting and turned the level control gain all the way as low as it could go in order to record a memorial day parade with marching bands going by.  The record gain level was set as low as it would allow (I think that was about number 9) showing on the display.  I got a very low recording with the loudest peaks of the bass drums marching by at times just below the max clipping point.  So got a good recording of the entire dynamic range but of course the quiet parts of the parade are way, way low.


So contrary to your previous post, there was no issue with the recorder.  It sounds like you weren't familiar with the capabilities of the recorder.  The 7xx limiter is also excellent.

Quote
I have not tried them in line input mode.  From my experiences of many years in audio electronics, I just don't like the change in sound characteristics when feeding low level mics into a line input. Just something about the impedance mismatch probably that messes with the sound.

Sounds like you had your mind made up that it would sound bad without trying.. The line in impedance is 7.5k ohms, mics 20k.    In comparison, the Grace V3 mic input is 3k ohms.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: listener2 on June 23, 2010, 07:16:22 PM
I never had issues with getting the gain exactly where I wanted it.  I think it was not mentioned in threads because nobody else has an issue with it.  A change of .1dB?  I wonder why anyone would need that.   How is that requirement now satisfied by the M10?  What other device provides that detailed gain control?  Does the m10 tell you how many db you are adding?  I think you could have set the gain via the menu (and maybe Clink), though I always used the knobs.
I said .1 DB to illustrate the point that the SD702 controls are hard to use in a pinch.  I do not actually make .1 DB level adjustments when recording really, I do attempt to make .5DB or 1DB adjustments however and find it way too time consuming to be juggling the record level knob (waking it up) and then finding out that the turn I just made to wake up the digital circuit has shot my record level way off by 5 to 10 DB! and then I have to keep turning the knob to keep the keep-alive circuit awake and try to fine tune the level adjustment back to where I wanted it.  During this time it is again jumping all over the place and not a smooth change.  It undershoots and overshoots the mark you are aiming to set it at with the slightest turn of the know.  It is just plain hard to set the level where I want it.  Sound Devices acknowledged the problem but said they have no plans on any fix for it.
Quote
Also the headphone amp output has tons of hiss noise.  It is way too noisey for a high end device that it is categorized as.

Tons?  I always found the headphone amp extremely powerful and never had any issues with noise.
Well I hear a much higher hiss noise level when playing back my recordings through the SD702 headphones jack.  To each their own hearing!  I hear the hiss.
Quote
So contrary to your previous post, there was no issue with the recorder.  It sounds like you weren't familiar with the capabilities of the recorder.  The 7xx limiter is also excellent.
I never said there was an issue with the SD702. Now you are twisting the original posts info around.  My post was about how surprised I was to find out just how high sensitivity the DPA 4060 mics were! not with how crappy and easily overloaded the SD702 mic preamp was.  gosh!
Quote
Sounds like you had your mind made up that it would sound bad without trying.. The line in impedance is 7.5k ohms, mics 20k.    In comparison, the Grace V3 mic input is 3k ohms.
Yeah, I did have my mind made up and stubborn for this one.  I just never tried it yet because I did not have to.  If you read my previous post, I said I was able to lower the mic gain setting on the SD702 low enough so that it did not overload the mic preamp stage.  So I left it at that and did not need to go further using the line level input.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on June 23, 2010, 07:35:21 PM
quite candidly I would like to try something out.

I want to make a recording with less superior equipment than schopes microphones, a grace v3, and a sound devices 702 and when I'm ready to seed it, say it was recorded with all of those expensive things and see how many people think it was not recorded with that equipment.

we on this board can't even agree flac vs high quality mp3s sound different nevertheless a sound devices vs a sony m10.

the idea of arguing about equipment and taking someone's personal opinion so seriously and nitpicking everything is overrated and should be left to other boards.

I know I am guilty of having strong opinions but we all need to relax and remember it is about the music.

for the price of the sound devices 702, I would be able to buy 7.5 sony pcm-m10s recording (rounded down) 14 channels.

 702 on b&h  (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/429566-REG/Sound_Devices_702_702_High_Resolution_2_Channel.html)

 m10 on b&h  (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html)

more is not necessarily better but come on...14 channels to the two on the 702.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: listener2 on June 23, 2010, 07:54:13 PM
quite candidly I will to try something out.

I want to make a recording with less superior equipment than schopes microphones, a grace v3, and a sound devices 702 and when I'm ready to seed it, say it was recorded with all of those expensive things and see how many people think it was not recorded with that equipment.

we on this board can't even agree flac vs high quality mp3s sound different nevertheless a sound devices vs a sony m10.

the idea of arguing about equipment and taking someone's personal opinion so seriously and nitpicking everything is overrated and should be left to other boards.

I know I am guilty of having strong opinions but we all need to relax and remember it is about the music.

for the price of the sound devices 702, I would be able to buy 7.5 sony pcm-m10s recording (rounded down) 14 channels.

 702 on b&h  (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/429566-REG/Sound_Devices_702_702_High_Resolution_2_Channel.html)

 m10 on b&h  (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html)

more is not necessarily better but come on...14 channels to the two on the 702.
I am in concurrence with you man! I bet you that no one would really be able to tell the difference between a nice recording made on a Sony M10 (or any other decent grade recorder like the newer Edirol R-09HR) and a Sound Devices 702 grade recorder.  The mics make more of a difference in the sound quality than the digital recorders do.  The only caveat to that is the noise level of the mic preamps of any particular recorder.  But in the league of the new Sony M10 and D50 and SoundDevices 702 recorders, I don't think preamp noise wll be an issue.  They are all great units, but you get more for your money with a little M10.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: beatkilla on June 23, 2010, 08:30:12 PM
Just got my m10 and will be running dpa 4061s with battery box so i should be turning off plug in power in the menu yes or no?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: chrise on June 23, 2010, 08:39:53 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: gmm6797 on June 23, 2010, 10:54:28 PM
more is not necessarily better but come on...14 channels to the two on the 702.

Good luck trying to time sync those
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on June 24, 2010, 12:21:55 AM
more is not necessarily better but come on...14 channels to the two on the 702.

Good luck trying to time sync those

haha. I think something more than luck would be needed but this brings up something interesting.

Why is syncing absolutely necessary? What if you have 7 different pairs of mics (well maybe a sbd, too), why not just press record 5 or so minutes in advance that way you know ALL recorders will be capturing the music. with 7 different recorders, you'll get 7 different sounding recordings so I don't think syncing is totally necessary.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on June 24, 2010, 01:01:52 AM
Why is syncing absolutely necessary? What if you have 7 different pairs of mics (well maybe a sbd, too), why not just press record 5 or so minutes in advance that way you know ALL recorders will be capturing the music.

The only thing that is absolutely necessary is that they are all minidiscs.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on June 24, 2010, 05:36:09 AM
I am in concurrence with you man! I bet you that no one would really be able to tell the difference between a nice recording made on a Sony M10 (or any other decent grade recorder like the newer Edirol R-09HR) and a Sound Devices 702 grade recorder.  The mics make more of a difference in the sound quality than the digital recorders do.  The only caveat to that is the noise level of the mic preamps of any particular recorder.  But in the league of the new Sony M10 and D50 and SoundDevices 702 recorders, I don't think preamp noise wll be an issue.  They are all great units, but you get more for your money with a little M10.

I agree with you & rastasean. I do think that a small percentage of people could tell the difference and that it would matter to them, but I know I wouldn't be able to and I don't think most people would. That's why I don't intend to upgrade from good small recorder like the M10 (with a littlebox if I need phantom or an external pre for more clean gain).
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ts on June 24, 2010, 07:53:20 AM
Anyone using battery powered mics directly into the M10? Mic-in is the way to go I guess.
ts, I am not sure exactly what you are asking but if you mean a mic that has its own battery power and does not require PIP from the recorder, I just tested the Sony M10 with my Audio Technica AT-8022 stereo condenser mic plugged into the Mic Input jack with Sony M10 mic plug-in-power "off".  I had tons of gain with it.  I only set the record level control to "4" to match the same level I get with the M10's internal built-in mics set at "3" recording a fairly loud home theater stereo system playing jazz station from my cable service music channel.

I think you must have had your M10 record gain set to automatic gain control = "on".  Turn it off and you should get much mic input gain.  (unless of course your particular self powered mics are extremely low output or defective?)

sorry, i should have said mics with internal batteries. and yes, rec level is set to manual, if thats what you are refering to.


what happens if you leave PIP on, using mics with internal batteries?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on June 24, 2010, 10:10:59 AM
what happens if you leave PIP on, using mics with internal batteries?

I can't say what will happen, but the plug in power should be off when using mics that don't run on plug in power. Leaving it on can't do any good and could do harm.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ts on June 24, 2010, 10:38:51 AM
what happens if you leave PIP on, using mics with internal batteries?

I can't say what will happen, but the plug in power should be off when using mics that don't run on plug in power. Leaving it on can't do any good and could do harm.

I'm kinda thinking the same. I want to try this little pre: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PREAMP behind my stock Nak 700's, but the PIP is always on and the Nak 700's run on internal 6V batts. :hmmm:

How do your Franken Naks work with the littlebox?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on June 24, 2010, 11:18:36 AM
How do your Franken Naks work with the littlebox?

Absolutely incredible. I recorded a friend's band (guitar/bass/drums) with that combo and it's probably the best sounding recording I've made in my 10 years of recording. Hard to see how it could have sounded better with a $3000 set of mics.

If you get a littlebox for your mics, be sure you can switch off the phantom/plug in power. I didn't ask for that option because I don't have any battery powered mics.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on June 24, 2010, 11:38:46 AM
I want to try this little pre: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PREAMP behind my stock Nak 700's, but the PIP is always on and the Nak 700's run on internal 6V batts. :hmmm:

It might be worth calling or e-mailing Chris Carfagno at Sound Pro's and asking if they could make you one with switchable plug in power.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: ts on June 24, 2010, 11:50:14 AM
How do your Franken Naks work with the littlebox?

Absolutely incredible. I recorded a friend's band (guitar/bass/drums) with that combo and it's probably the best sounding recording I've made in my 10 years of recording. Hard to see how it could have sounded better with a $3000 set of mics.

If you get a littlebox for your mics, be sure you can switch off the phantom/plug in power. I didn't ask for that option because I don't have any battery powered mics.

How do the mics enter the littlebox? Mini xlr?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: sparkey on June 24, 2010, 12:11:19 PM
Most people - e.g. stock car stereo systems on the way to work - may not be able to tell the difference....those who have invested into their playback systems probably would be able to tell the difference.  Don't get me wrong, there is a bang-for-the-buck argument to be made....but systems that reproduce accurately you should be able to tell the difference on.

I want to make a recording with less superior equipment than schopes microphones, a grace v3, and a sound devices 702 and when I'm ready to seed it, say it was recorded with all of those expensive things and see how many people think it was not recorded with that equipment.
 702 on b&h  (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/429566-REG/Sound_Devices_702_702_High_Resolution_2_Channel.html)
 m10 on b&h  (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html)
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Todd R on June 24, 2010, 12:14:40 PM
The folks who say that you won't hear a difference should try it sometime.  Not to say the M10 doesn't sound good, or even better than the 722, since I haven't tried myself -- but you might be surprised.  I have done a number of controlled comps of recorders and A/D stages.  It's really pretty easy since it is often very easy for one mic preamp to feed two different recorders or A/D's.

I've done comps many times of various options compared to the Lunatec V3 I owned for 7 years or so.  I'd bet I'd have a pretty good track record picking out a V3 recording since I ran it so much and did many listening tests with it.  If nothing else, the V3 has a very accurate and realistic reproduction of cymbal decays, I can generally pick out a V3 recording in a controlled comp readily by listening for this alone.

Most recently I did a controlled comp using my PSP2 with dual outputs, one fed to a Tascam 680 recorder and one fed to an Oade-modded R44 recorder.  I found hearing the differences between the recordings to be very, very apparent -- subtle, but apparent. It took a long time and a lot of listening to finally judge which one I preferred since both had their good and bad qualities, but strictly to differentiate between the two wasn't very difficult.  That said, both the 680 and the Oade R44 sounded very good and most people would be happy with recordings from either recorder.


On the need to sync recorders, the issue is time drift between recorders.  Even if both recorders are set to sample at 44,100 samples per second, in reality they will sample at slightly different rates because the oscillators used to develop the clock signal are not completely accurate.  As a rough example, if you have two recorders sampling at 44,100 samples per second and the clocks are 99.99% accurate (+/- 0.0001), one could be running on the fast side of that accuracy, and one on the slow side.  Even with this level of accuracy, the 2 sources over 2 hours (7,200 seconds or nominally 317,520,000 samples) could vary by 1.4 seconds.  That is, the 2 sources could drift from one another by 1400 milliseconds, and a drift of more than 30 or 40 milliseconds or more becomes noticeable as an echo or excessive unpleasant reverb.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: rastasean on June 24, 2010, 01:16:59 PM
sparkey - in other words audiophiles would be able to tell the difference. what is the percentage of audiophiles compared to the entire music listening population? musicians may not even be able to tell the difference if they don't protect their hearing. producers and engineers probably would be able to. i doubt a busybody at a record label would be able to tell the difference. Just because someone has invested loads into their home audio system doesn't even mean they will be able to tell the difference if their ears are not closely listening.

todd - I would HOPE the 722 sounds better considering its $2200 more than the m10.  ;)
I don't know what a psp2 is. sorry.
I believe after seeing multiple new people come to this site, they would be happy if their iphone allowed digital audio recording without a mic input! we're just special kind of people who know what our ears do and don't like. for the sound drift, this only matters if you're syncing more than one recorder. so if you want 7 different sources and don't care about syncing them, it wouldn't make a difference.

If i have $2200 to spend, I would get a pair of mics or maybe two pairs.


Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Belexes on June 24, 2010, 01:41:58 PM
todd - I would HOPE the 722 sounds better considering its $2200 more than the m10.  ;)

I haven't found always that to be the case in terms of more $ = better sounding. I think too many people on this board have that perception, IMHO.   Spend $5000 on a rig and it automatically puts a $1500 rig to shame? Not always.  I have compared recordings on LMA and some of the lesser expensive rigs sound better to my ears.

Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on June 24, 2010, 02:16:50 PM
sparkey - in other words audiophiles would be able to tell the difference.

Audiophile is a charged term, often associated with stuff that many people can't hear, or that just seems completely goofy.  I know a lot of people who would easily hear the difference but would not accept that label.  There's a big difference between "good playback", spending where it counds vs. "audiophile"...

Based on the posts, there are lots of folks on this board who have bought and sold a lot of playback gear over the years..  You might be amazed at what can be heard, and how much better some gear sounds than other gear.   Some people assume amplifiers sound pretty much the same.  I mean, they're just solid state amps, right?   I can recall the eye opening experiences where I found that isn't true at all (oh how my wallet wishes it was), and how it caused me to ignore specs.  Then there was the first time I heard a soundstage that imaged way outside the speakers, something I didn't think was possible... The good news?  The cost of great playback has come down, and we have sites like audiogon.

As Todd said, it is often easy to hear the difference in gear, but it takes a lot more time, and can be difficult to decide, which you prefer.   Especially when you're comparing great sounding sources. I find it takes different types of material, different types of recordings, considerations of listening fatigue, etc.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: Todd R on June 24, 2010, 02:19:41 PM
Sorry Rasta, I wasn't reading your post carefully enough, I thought the discussion was about why the need to sync recordings when they were being mixed together.

On hearing the difference, I agree -- it does take careful, non-trivial listening, not just casual or background listening.  I was responding to the notion that no one could hear the difference between recorders.  I think that is easy enough, but at the same time I recognize that the vast majority of people listening to the "tapes" would be perfectly happy with the recordings made by any of the recorders.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: fmaderjr on June 24, 2010, 02:57:27 PM
How do the mics (Franken Naks) enter the littlebox? Mini xlr?

Yes
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: listener2 on June 24, 2010, 04:02:54 PM
what happens if you leave PIP on, using mics with internal batteries?

I can't say what will happen, but the plug in power should be off when using mics that don't run on plug in power. Leaving it on can't do any good and could do harm.
To answer both ts and add to fmaderjr's answer Yes, you should turn off internal mic power if you use an external battery box or a mic that has its own battery power. It won't do any damage if you left the internal mic power on and used an external power source but what happens is that the two voltages cancel each other across the coupling capacitor used to block the DC voltage component from the AC signal input component.  Usually there is a polarized electrolytic capacitor used in the external battery box circuit (or inside the battery powered mics like you have) and it requires the positive voltage higher on its + lead and negative on the minus lead.  The minus lead of the polarized capacitor is the one that connects to the input of your recorder.  So if you have a plus voltage of 3 volts from your recorder's mic powering on one side of the capacitor, it would basically subtract from the voltage supplied on the + side of the capacitor inside the battery box (or your mic).  This in most cases won't pose a problem and usually is not audible at all.  But it is best to turn off internal mic powering when you use an external battery box or self powered mic.
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: beatkilla on June 24, 2010, 07:05:29 PM
Im using m10 with dpa 4061s and bbox,(mic in pip off)audio is to be used for bluray concert video,bluray spec allows 16bit 48k or 24bit 48k.with this deck will i notice better quality with 24bit?should i record 24bit 96k?what is the point of diminishing returns?
Title: Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
Post by: aaronji on June 26, 2010, 07:33:13 AM
Part 3 starts here...http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136665.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136665.0)