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Gear / Technical Help => Remote Power => Topic started by: MakersMarc on October 20, 2015, 09:55:00 AM

Title: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: MakersMarc on October 20, 2015, 09:55:00 AM
For an nbox?
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: tim in jersey on October 20, 2015, 10:06:27 AM
These were suggested to me by a longtime nbox owner/user. Has worked great thus far...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=883815&gclid=CKyss97W-cQCFe1j7AodiwsAag&Q=&is=REG&A=details
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: MakersMarc on October 20, 2015, 11:20:26 AM
Thanks Tim
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: hi and lo on October 20, 2015, 12:31:16 PM
The NiMH Imedion 9v's are excellent rechargeable batteries. Just make sure you get the 9.6v version for use with the nbox.

However, you need to be careful not to over-discharge them. The original nbox / reutelhuber uses a high current design, ~50 mA draw each from the two batteries powering the opamps, and does not have a low-voltage cutoff mechanism. As a result, it will easily discharge these batteries to < 1 v total, which is terrible for their longevity. Each 9.6v battery is comprised of 8 1.2v cells in series, so dropping the total voltage to < 1v is effectively lowering the voltage to ~.1 v per cell. Generally speaking, it is not a good practice to discharge a NiMH cell below .9v, so draining it down to .1v is about as bad as it gets.

I have 16 of these... The original 8 I bought 3-4 years ago have served me well, however I am now starting to see failures from over draining them. Some of the batteries now show physical changes (bulges, indents, etc.), but still seem to take a charge ok. Others are now completely dead and will not accept a charge.

If you're using the nbox platinum, the risk of over discharge is basically non-existent, unless you left them in the unit while turned on for several days / weeks. I doubt that they have added a low-voltage cutoff circuit. In comparison, the original nbox will discharge them to < 1v total in ~6 hours.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on October 20, 2015, 01:09:44 PM
The Maha Imedion 9.6V is a Low-Self-Discharge version of the standard Maha 9.6V.  I feel LSD NiMH are advantageous and strongly prefer them, even though they have a bit less total capacity than the standard version.  I'm not an nbox user however and have no idea of the specifics of that application, but am just posting to note that you will need to use the correct 9.6V charger for them.  A charger designed for nominal 9V NiMH batteries (which actually measure a bit less than 9V) will not charge them properly.  The simple 4-bay Maha chargers for their 9.6Vs have worked well IME and can be powered by  either an 120VAC or 12VDC source.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: MakersMarc on October 20, 2015, 01:53:27 PM
Thanks a ton for all the info guys,
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: robeti on October 20, 2015, 02:02:44 PM
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WGCWIU?keywords=powerex%20stealth&qid=1445364131&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on October 20, 2015, 02:52:53 PM
^^^
That Amazon link is to the Powerex non-LSD version of the 9.6V (white case with yellow lettering).
The Imedion LSD version of the 9.6V has a black case with grey lettering. 

(http://www.thomasdistributing.com/assets/images/96v230.jpg)

Both are manufactured by Maha.

Here's the specifics on the Imedion version at Thompson Distributing- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Imedion-9V-96V-230-mAh-Low-Discharge-NIMH-Rechargeable-Battery_p_2455.html

Here's their package of charger + 3 Imedions, otherwise same as the Amazon deal- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/MAHA-MH-C490F-9-Volt-9V-Battery-Charger-with-Three-Maha-Imedion-96V-230-mAh-Batteries-with-World-Adapter-and-12V-Cord_p_851.html
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: tim in jersey on October 21, 2015, 02:18:22 AM
The NiMH Imedion 9v's are excellent rechargeable batteries. Just make sure you get the 9.6v version for use with the nbox.

However, you need to be careful not to over-discharge them. The original nbox / reutelhuber uses a high current design, ~50 mA draw each from the two batteries powering the opamps, and does not have a low-voltage cutoff mechanism. As a result, it will easily discharge these batteries to < 1 v total, which is terrible for their longevity. Each 9.6v battery is comprised of 8 1.2v cells in series, so dropping the total voltage to < 1v is effectively lowering the voltage to ~.1 v per cell. Generally speaking, it is not a good practice to discharge a NiMH cell below .9v, so draining it down to .1v is about as bad as it gets.

I have 16 of these... The original 8 I bought 3-4 years ago have served me well, however I am now starting to see failures from over draining them. Some of the batteries now show physical changes (bulges, indents, etc.), but still seem to take a charge ok. Others are now completely dead and will not accept a charge.

If you're using the nbox platinum, the risk of over discharge is basically non-existent, unless you left them in the unit while turned on for several days / weeks. I doubt that they have added a low-voltage cutoff circuit. In comparison, the original nbox will discharge them to < 1v total in ~6 hours.

^ This is why I love ts.com. Ask a simple question and you get a detailed, technical answer, broken down in to laymans terms, which helps me further my understanding of electronics in general as well as the specific gear I'm running. Love this board. :)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: tim in jersey on October 21, 2015, 02:31:39 AM
Also I'm going to upgrade from the N-box to the N-box platinum by next year so I don't have to count/do math in the field during festival season. 1 set of batteries per day without worry sounds like a dream...

Not having to change batteries in the rain for an entire fest set sounds like a dream come true...
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: robeti on October 22, 2015, 02:20:34 PM
^^^
That Amazon link is to the Powerex non-LSD version of the 9.6V (white case with yellow lettering).
The Imedion LSD version of the 9.6V has a black case with grey lettering. 

(http://www.thomasdistributing.com/assets/images/96v230.jpg)

Both are manufactured by Maha.

Here's the specifics on the Imedion version at Thompson Distributing- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Imedion-9V-96V-230-mAh-Low-Discharge-NIMH-Rechargeable-Battery_p_2455.html

Here's their package of charger + 3 Imedions, otherwise same as the Amazon deal- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/MAHA-MH-C490F-9-Volt-9V-Battery-Charger-with-Three-Maha-Imedion-96V-230-mAh-Batteries-with-World-Adapter-and-12V-Cord_p_851.html

Thanks! I wasn't aware of that! I have both the white/yellow + black batteries. Never had a problem with any of them.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Jhurlbs81 on October 29, 2015, 08:45:04 AM
Does anyone use rechargeable 9v's in a lemosax?

Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: hi and lo on October 29, 2015, 03:49:57 PM
Does anyone use rechargeable 9v's in a lemosax?

Yes, works fine.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Craig T on October 29, 2015, 04:41:15 PM
Also I'm going to upgrade from the N-box to the N-box platinum by next year so I don't have to count/do math in the field during festival season. 1 set of batteries per day without worry sounds like a dream...

Not having to change batteries in the rain for an entire fest set sounds like a dream come true...

Yes.  The plat. version makes it a breeze to record festivals.  Nbox-P > M10... set it and forget it all day.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: MakersMarc on October 31, 2015, 01:17:25 PM
Thanks for the gold guys, most appreciated.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: morst on November 25, 2015, 07:56:04 PM
so, how is battery life on the rechargeables versus alkalines?

I run the Beyer MV100 with KM140's and can get 5 hours out of a pair of alkalines, before there is gain loss.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: caymanreview on February 10, 2016, 03:42:42 PM
how many sets of batteries does everyone keep on hand?

with the new 3 battery nbox, has anyone tested the good powerex lsd's?

Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: dactylus on February 13, 2016, 02:05:56 AM
^^^
That Amazon link is to the Powerex non-LSD version of the 9.6V (white case with yellow lettering).
The Imedion LSD version of the 9.6V has a black case with grey lettering. 

(http://www.thomasdistributing.com/assets/images/96v230.jpg)

Both are manufactured by Maha.

Here's the specifics on the Imedion version at Thompson Distributing- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Imedion-9V-96V-230-mAh-Low-Discharge-NIMH-Rechargeable-Battery_p_2455.html

Here's their package of charger + 3 Imedions, otherwise same as the Amazon deal- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/MAHA-MH-C490F-9-Volt-9V-Battery-Charger-with-Three-Maha-Imedion-96V-230-mAh-Batteries-with-World-Adapter-and-12V-Cord_p_851.html

Thanks Lee!  I ordered the Maha charger + 3 Imedions!

Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: MakersMarc on February 15, 2016, 07:00:59 PM
^had good luck with this setup with my nbox platinum. No backups. Walk on the wild side.    8)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: perks on February 15, 2016, 10:57:46 PM
^^^
That Amazon link is to the Powerex non-LSD version of the 9.6V (white case with yellow lettering).
The Imedion LSD version of the 9.6V has a black case with grey lettering. 

(http://www.thomasdistributing.com/assets/images/96v230.jpg)

Both are manufactured by Maha.

Here's the specifics on the Imedion version at Thompson Distributing- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Imedion-9V-96V-230-mAh-Low-Discharge-NIMH-Rechargeable-Battery_p_2455.html

Here's their package of charger + 3 Imedions, otherwise same as the Amazon deal- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/MAHA-MH-C490F-9-Volt-9V-Battery-Charger-with-Three-Maha-Imedion-96V-230-mAh-Batteries-with-World-Adapter-and-12V-Cord_p_851.html

These Maha  rechargeable 9v's have saved me thousands of $$ in the years I've been using them.

They are not as reliable or last as long as Duracell Copper Top's but they also don't cost me $3-$6 per show which is what I pay at Costco or Target for Duracell's.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: soundsinteresting on February 18, 2016, 01:10:56 PM
How about this one?
http://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00HV4KFSA/tag=metaefficient-20 (http://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00HV4KFSA/tag=metaefficient-20)
Anybody tried this Li battery, probably one ore 2 cell electronically raised to 9v (guessing)
Unfortunately they do not ship to europe.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: caymanreview on March 31, 2016, 05:38:54 PM
Not sure how everyone stores their 9vs. This is the first time ive messed with them since i first started taping. I found this on amazon and i love it. Batts are secure in the holder. Low enough nothing will touch the terminals while in the case

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/dustinlewis/Mobile%20Uploads/B69DA5BD-337B-4BDD-9CBD-9C9A3274D5C7.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dustinlewis/media/Mobile%20Uploads/B69DA5BD-337B-4BDD-9CBD-9C9A3274D5C7.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on March 31, 2016, 05:53:29 PM
Nice.  Put them in there the other way (upside down) and a terminal short is even less likely.
[edit- oh wait, maybe they won't snap in that way, the case ending up taller by the height of the terminals, and the plastic latch no longer at the right height.]

Beats sticking a small piece of gaff tape across the top, which is what I do.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: caymanreview on March 31, 2016, 05:55:07 PM
Excellent idea!

For about 5$ i figured id give it a try.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: F.O.Bean on March 31, 2016, 08:33:26 PM
I know this isn't 9v related, but I have had this Maha Powerex MHC-9000 charger for over 5 years now, and it does an AMAZING JOB of charging and maintaining my AA/AAA batteries! My old Energizer 2300mah NIMH AA's lasted over 5 years because of this charger! And never use another bad battery again! This will tell you within 10 minutes if the battery is bad or not! But most importantly, it has a "Break In" function, that charges/discharges the batteries VERY SLOWLY, so that they can reach their maximum capacity after that :)

I wanted to get some 9v NIMH batts back in the day when I had my Lemosax and LB, but never took the bite! I looked high and low for a charger similar to the Maha MHC-9000, but for 9v batts, and I never found that similar 9v charger, if it even exists :) Something with that "Break In" mode would be awesome for getting the max capacity from your 9v batteries! Sure, you could just cycle the hell out of them, but that "Break In" mode is equal to probably 10 cycles at least IMO!
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: caymanreview on April 01, 2016, 12:27:07 PM
Im also using a maha powerex but just for 9vs
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gordon on April 19, 2016, 11:06:09 AM
I've been using standard 9v energizer or duracell's in my littlebox v1 (the 2015 edidtion).  They read about 9.25-9.3 new.  Any reason the powerex 9.6v wouldn't be a good option?
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: OhioHead on April 20, 2016, 03:03:24 PM
Which 9v rechargeable would you all recommend for the LB 1.0 2015 edition (fast or slow discharge)?

I like the idea of moving to rechargeable for my batteries so I am not recycling as many + saving some $$$$$.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on April 20, 2016, 05:05:17 PM
LSD (low self discharge) versions of NiMH batteries have a bit less total capacity, but hold their charge for much longer.   A regular NiMH will have less capacity remaining than an LSD about a week after re-charge and be effectively dead in about a month, whereas LSD NiMH supposedly holds usable charge for about a year.  That makes LSD batteries more reliable in the short term, and I believe also gives them a longer usable life-span making them more reliable in the long-term as well.  However, I've no evidence for the improved life-span and long-term reliability claim other than my own anecdotal use.

For me that minor reduction in total capacity reduction is totally offset by these other advantages of the low self discharge versions.

NiMH "9V" batteries have a slightly different voltage than standard alkaline or carbon-cell 9V batteries.  Standard NiMH "9V"s measure closer to 8V when fully charged.  The 9.6V measures around 11v fresh out of the charger, and drops to about 10V by the time of use.  They' measure around 9V or a bit less after use.  For devices designed for alkaline 9V batteries, where performance may suffer if not supplied with sufficient voltage, the 9.6V NiMH may be a better choice than a nominal 9V NiMH.

MAHA offers their 9.6V NiMH in both regular and LSD versions.  The non-LSD version is branded Powerex and has a white case.  The LSD version is branded Imedion and has a black case (see the photos posted above).
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: OhioHead on April 21, 2016, 08:55:18 AM
Thank you GutBucket, I will investigate the 9v LSD for my LittleBox..........
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: StuStu on April 22, 2016, 11:04:58 AM
How about this one?
http://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00HV4KFSA/tag=metaefficient-20 (http://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00HV4KFSA/tag=metaefficient-20)
Anybody tried this Li battery, probably one ore 2 cell electronically raised to 9v (guessing)
Unfortunately they do not ship to europe.


I know this post was a few months ago, but I just saw it and thought I'd share my experience. My review? Shit sandwich. These batteries are crap. They don't hold a charge more or less at all. Even brand new. I ordered the 4 pack and all 4 are crap. YMMV.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWqKiqTfXuA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWqKiqTfXuA)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Jamos on April 22, 2016, 01:31:26 PM
In my experience, all of these Li-Ion 9V rechargeables are about the same.  They are cheaply made, quality control is bad, but if you get "good" ones (which I've gotten 90% of the time) they will last for a long time. 
This will save a lot of $$$ and a lot of alkaline batteries.
I think this is why the iPower batteries are more expensive.  The product is about the same, but their quality control is much higher, so you're more likely to get a good product.

They are 8.4V and are slightly larger than a standard alkaline.  So they are quirky, but if they work for your application, can be a good fit.  This is evidenced by the 600+ amazon reviews and 4.5 stars.

If you get these, make sure you charge them completely before using.  Someone did a breakdown about balancing the cells, and how the batteries don't achieve full capacity until they are balanced properly.
 

How about this one?
http://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00HV4KFSA/tag=metaefficient-20 (http://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00HV4KFSA/tag=metaefficient-20)
Anybody tried this Li battery, probably one ore 2 cell electronically raised to 9v (guessing)
Unfortunately they do not ship to europe.


I know this post was a few months ago, but I just saw it and thought I'd share my experience. My review? Shit sandwich. These batteries are crap. They don't hold a charge more or less at all. Even brand new. I ordered the 4 pack and all 4 are crap. YMMV.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWqKiqTfXuA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWqKiqTfXuA)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: StuStu on April 22, 2016, 01:44:42 PM
^^^I've ditched alkalines. No going back to those for me. My knock is only on the EBLs. I'm surprised they're rated as highly as they are on Amazon. In fact, that's why I bought them in the first place. Maybe I just got a bad batch for whatever reason? I've had great luck with the Imedion 9.6v.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: caymanreview on April 29, 2016, 10:04:59 PM
These 9v's are insane in my 3 batt version kcy nbox platinum! ~24hrs on that test and i didnt run them dead.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: dactylus on April 30, 2016, 06:19:59 AM
These 9v's are insane in my 3 batt version kcy nbox platinum! ~24hrs on that test and i didnt run them dead.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gordon on May 25, 2016, 03:09:00 PM
Thank you GutBucket, I will investigate the 9v LSD for my LittleBox..........

did you ever pick anything up?
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: seethreepo on June 27, 2016, 12:18:30 PM
https://www.amazon.com/Powerex-MH-96V230-230mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B00LT0LS92/ref=sr_1_sc_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1467044106&sr=8-3-spell&keywords=imdeion+9v

has anyone tried the "new " version amazon is promoting ? is there any discernible difference?  just seems like different branding but I just wanted to confirm with the masses..
also is there any difference between the two Maha  branded 9v chargers   ie the one with 4 bays vs ten apart from the number of bays  ie charge time, features quality etc.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on June 27, 2016, 04:09:15 PM
^ Looks to be the same original non-LSD version to me.  I find the Maha Imedion LSD version of this battery (black case) more reliable over both the short and long term.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175100.msg2163808#msg2163808

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175100.msg2163836#msg2163836

Last I checked (a couple years ago) the Maha 9V chargers were all pretty much the same.  None have the advanced features of their fancy AA/AAA charger, but all are capable of correctly charging 9.6Vs and have individual circuits for each cell, which are the two most important features.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gordon on November 07, 2016, 08:35:50 PM
I've been using standard 9v energizer or duracell's in my littlebox v1 (the 2015 edidtion).  They read about 9.25-9.3 new.  Any reason the powerex 9.6v wouldn't be a good option?
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: F.O.Bean on November 08, 2016, 07:05:06 AM
I have Tenergy 9v/200mah NIMH Rechargeables, and so far I like them a lot! I don't use them for taping, but they do extremely well for what I am using them for ;)

I am using a Tenergy TB6B Balancing Charger/Dis-Charger, and according to Joe@Tenergy, the proper charging settings for 9v rechargeables are @8.4v/.1a! I am getting around 230-240mah on those settings :) And if I am using my 9.6v/2000mah NIMH RC packs for my VMS02IB, the proper charging settings for those are @9.6v/1a max! 9.6v/2a MAX very rarely! That is, if you have a charger/dis-charger that lets you change those values ;)

But as far as the 'Tenergy' brand batteries, I trust them VERY much and have been using them for well over a decade 8) I'd like to get a couple of their 9v/600mah Li-Ion batteries one of these days, along with some of their 2,600mah/NIMH AA batteries! I have had great success with their 9v & 9.6v Rechargeables and would definitely recommend them :)

Best of luck & Happy Taping :)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gordon on December 09, 2016, 09:34:06 AM
So I picked up some of the Powerex 9V Precharged Rechargeable NiMH Battery (9.6V, 230mAh) from b&h.  Tested yesterday just recording the radio and got about 4:45 with my littlebox.  With normal 9v when I tested last year I think I got about 6 hours.  Does this seem right?  Not too worried as I picked up 3 of them and don't generally tape for that long anyway.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: larrysellers on December 09, 2016, 09:57:39 AM
Did you charge them first or test them straight out of the package? I use these in my nbox and I get run times comparable to regular 9.6v alkaline batteries.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gordon on December 09, 2016, 12:20:00 PM
charged first.  It's been a while since I tested with standard 9v but I recall it was about 6 hours.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 12, 2016, 04:13:07 PM
The Ah capacity of NiMH 9.6V's is around 230mAh, or about half that of alkaline 9V batteries which average around 500mAh (granted the voltage is higher).  And the 8.4V NiMH versions have only a slightly higher rating of about 300mAh.

That contrasts with NiMH AAs. These days, the Ah capacity of a NiMH AA is typically equal to or greater than a standard AA alkaline, although the nominal voltage is slightly less less at 1.2V verses 1.5V per cell.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Jamos on December 13, 2016, 03:33:27 PM
This is not totally true.
The 8.4V Li-Polymer rechargeables are usually 600mAh, or even 700mAh, like this one:
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/One-iPOWER-9-Volt-700mAh-Lithium-Polymer-Rechargeable-Battery-_p_2989.html
 

The Ah capacity of NiMH 9.6V's is around 230mAh, or about half that of alkaline 9V batteries which average around 500mAh (granted the voltage is higher).  And the 8.4V NiMH versions have only a slightly higher rating of about 300mAh.

That contrasts with NiMH AAs. These days, the Ah capacity of a NiMH AA is typically equal to or greater than a standard AA alkaline, although the nominal voltage is slightly less less at 1.2V verses 1.5V per cell.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: larrysellers on December 13, 2016, 03:42:05 PM
I think Gutbucket was specifically referring to the rechargeables branded as 9.6v. I believe Powerex is the only manufacturer of these.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: F.O.Bean on December 14, 2016, 01:42:08 AM
charged first.  It's been a while since I tested with standard 9v but I recall it was about 6 hours.

They're NIMH batteries! They JUST need cycled a handful of times, so they get to their maximum capacity ;) After about 5-6 cycles, they'll be putting out 230+mah, trust me ;)

If you want them to charge up to their maximum capacity WITHOUT cycling them a handful of times, if your charger allows, DISCHARGE the 9v batteries@8.4v[Nominal Voltage], but ONLY at .1a/100mah. Then CHARGE them @8.4v/.1a[8.4v/100mah]. I ALMOST GUARANTEE that they will charge up to their max cap of 230mah after discharging/charging them that slowly! That's essentially a "Break IN" charge and does the job damn near everytime. It should ALWAYS be done on NEW/Worn Out batteries ;)

I have been studying batteries since the early 2000's, and I am CONSTANTLY charging/discharging batteries of all kinds[NIMH/Li-Ion most often], and I KNOW my batteries ;) Plus, I JUST spoke with someone very knowledgeable at "Tenergy" Battery Company and he reminded me some of this stuff, since it's been awhile since I researched it :)

This is quoted from someone at Tenergy ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Bean,

It is best to charge both batteries at the nominal voltage.  For the 9V battery, you would set the charger for 8.4V or use the automatic feature for NiMh batteries.  This should give the battery a voltage between 10.5V-11.V. The recommended charge rate and discharge for this battery is 100mAh or .1A, please do not exceed this rate.

The 9.6V battery pack should also be set to 9.6V at a 1A rate.  The rapid rate is 2A but we don't recommend using this rate too often.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And about charging 9v/Li-Ion batteries.............

Dear Bean,

For the Li-ion batteries, they operate at 7.4V.  You should set the TB6B 7.4V (2s) at .1a.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So for ALL 9v Rechargeables, charge them at NO MORE than .1a[100mah], whether they're NIMH or LI-Ion[if your charger allows obviously]!!! It will GREATLY extend their life and they will have a greater capacity as well! :)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 14, 2016, 09:16:14 AM
This is not totally true.
The 8.4V Li-Polymer rechargeables are usually 600mAh, or even 700mAh, like this one:
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/One-iPOWER-9-Volt-700mAh-Lithium-Polymer-Rechargeable-Battery-_p_2989.html
 

The Ah capacity of NiMH 9.6V's is around 230mAh, or about half that of alkaline 9V batteries which average around 500mAh (granted the voltage is higher).  And the 8.4V NiMH versions have only a slightly higher rating of about 300mAh.

That contrasts with NiMH AAs. These days, the Ah capacity of a NiMH AA is typically equal to or greater than a standard AA alkaline, although the nominal voltage is slightly less less at 1.2V verses 1.5V per cell.
I think Gutbucket was specifically referring to the rechargeables branded as 9.6v. I believe Powerex is the only manufacturer of these.

I was referring to NiMH in comparison with alkaline batteries.  Lithium disposables and Li-Polymer rechargeables are an entirely different ball of wax.

The Powerex/Maha 9.6V behaves as any other NiMH battery essentially. I'd have to check, but I think it has slightly less Ah capacity than "standard 8.4V NiMH 9V types", simply because it uses an extra internal cell in series to raise the voltage by 1.2V (1.2V per each NiMH cell) and to fit within a standard size 9V case each cell must be slightly smaller.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 14, 2016, 10:04:29 AM
However, I am interested in the Li-Polymer rechargeables, and have some questions about them.

They reason is that I have a custom preamp powered by a single 9V battery.  I intended to use Maha 9.6V Imedion LSDs in it, except the ones I have on hand have become long-in-the-tooth and are no longer trustworthy and in need of replacement, so in the interim I've been using standard 9V alkalines.   The problem is that I suspect the preamp may be pushing the transient current supply limits of a standard alkaline 9V during demanding passages, and I don't expect the 9.6V NiMH batteries to be any improvement over alkalines in that regard.

Unfortunately I can find no good measure of the transient current capability for various "9V" battery chemistries.   I assume the combination of a high enough Ahr rating and low enough internal resistance will be the key.  NiMH "9V"s have a lower Ahr capacity than alkaline, which leads me to believe they won't be an improvement, although I have not compared their internal resistance curves, which is probably the most important factor. The alternate "fix" would/will probably involve adding additional reserve power supply capacitance as well as using the most appropriate battery type, and perhaps using two batteries in parallel instead of a single one.

Nominal voltage of Li-polymer rechargeable is 7.4V, which is is too low for correct operation of the preamp.  Are there any Li-polymer "9V" which have a nominal voltage higher than 7.4V, similar to NiMh being available in 9.6V as well as 8.4V versions? 

The short term answer may be to use disposable Lithiums, which are 9V nominal and have high Ahr capacity (need to check the internal resistance curve), but they are costly even though they would last longer, and I'd prefer a rechargeable for the cost/convenience/waste advantages.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Jamos on December 15, 2016, 02:54:33 AM
Sorry if I was misunderstanding you, Gutbucket...I was just trying to get accurate info out there.

The Li-Poly 9V batteries operate at about 8.4V.  So they are not a true 9V, just like the 8.4V NiMh batteries, but their discharge curve is virtually flat until they are "empty". I've never seen one that operates at 7.4V.  I think that would be fairly useless for any device that is built to run on standard 9V batteries.

We use them with some older wireless systems fairly often.  The wireless transmitters or receivers will read that the battery level is low as soon as it is inserted (they don't have a switch to re-calibrate their meter), but then that level stays exactly the same for the entire time until the voltage quickly falls off and the wireless units shut down.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 15, 2016, 04:40:02 PM
No worries, same here.

Of the Li-Ion/Li-Polymer rechargeable "9V"s I find in web searches, all that actually indicate the true nominal voltage specification of the battery indicate ~7.2 to 7.4V nominal.  "9V" in the description simply indicates the battery size.  Granted they might measure higher immediately off a charge, but the flat section representing the useful working portion of their discharge curve is going to be somewhere around 7.2-7.4V which is unfortunately too low for correct operation of my preamp. 

Maybe I'm missing finding higher voltage versions, can you direct me to the Lithium rechargeables you are using?

Here are the 4 examples I found online which actually list the nominal voltage of battery (most only mention 9V as the battery size, not the actual voltage)-

http://www.batteryspace.com/Li-Ion-9V-500mAh-4.5Wh-Rechargeable-Battery.aspx (http://www.batteryspace.com/Li-Ion-9V-500mAh-4.5Wh-Rechargeable-Battery.aspx)

http://www.batterymart.com/p-r-li9720-9volt-lithium-polymer-battery.html?gclid=CjwKEAiAm8nCBRD7xLj-2aWFyz8SJAAQNalaMOoLKXSOk-GuaA1eSXCaELE9ee19LKW4XUUv-PIChBoCPHbw_wcB (http://www.batterymart.com/p-r-li9720-9volt-lithium-polymer-battery.html?gclid=CjwKEAiAm8nCBRD7xLj-2aWFyz8SJAAQNalaMOoLKXSOk-GuaA1eSXCaELE9ee19LKW4XUUv-PIChBoCPHbw_wcB)

http://www.shorepowerinc.com/ipower-9v-700.html (http://www.shorepowerinc.com/ipower-9v-700.html)

http://www.all-battery.com/9VLi-ionRechargeableBattery-30593.aspx (http://www.all-battery.com/9VLi-ionRechargeableBattery-30593.aspx)

Everything I've read indicates the individual cell voltage of Li-Po is 3.7V per cell, so that makes sense to me.  Excluding some kind of built in management circuitry which adjusts the output voltage to a value which is not a multiple of 3.6-ishV,  Li-Po batteries should have nominal voltages of around 3.6V, 7.2V, 10.8V, 14.4V.. etc.

10.8V may be the best option if available.  I'm sure it is as a prismatic pack, but I'm looking something in a "9V" configuration format.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 15, 2016, 05:00:57 PM
Found this article at the Battery University website- (http://batteryuniversity.com/)
BU-205: Types of Lithium-ion - http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion)

Which confirms that most common Lithium secondary (rechargeable) batteries of various chemistry typically have cell voltages of around 3.6-3.7V. 

Also found this summary table of the attributes of various lithium cell chemistries- http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_216_summary_table_of_lithium_based_batteries  (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_216_summary_table_of_lithium_based_batteries)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: F.O.Bean on December 18, 2016, 05:53:17 AM
Gutbucket, you're right about the individual cell voltage of the Li-Poly!

Li-Fe= 3.3v
Li-Ion= 3.6v
Li-Poly= 3.7v

However, even though the Li-Poly have a slightly higher voltage, they are a less stable chemistry, and MUCH more prone to explosions :( They sell specific Li-Poly "explosion bags" that encase the battery while its charging and while in storage/transport because they're so damn unstable. They don't sell Li-Fe/Li-Ion "explosion bags" lol ;)

Li-Fe batteries are less common these days since the Li-Ion/Li-Poly came out, because they have a lower cell voltage!

That said, the "9v" battery SHOULD still power your preamp, even though it has a nominal voltage of 7.2v :) Have you tried it? You might not get as long as a runtime as a Lithium Alkaline 9vbattery, but the 9v Li-Ion should still power it for about half as long! I would at least try it before I would keep sinking $$ into Lithium 9v's :( Finally, ALL of my gear is powered with rechargeable batteries[VMS + 70D's, plus all of my flashlights] ;D
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 19, 2016, 11:36:54 AM
Thanks Bean.  I'll keep looking into it.

First thing I should probably try is an Imedion 9.6V LSD NiMH, which in the past has worked so well for me with similar preamps.  I've been using alkalines in this one so far, because I need to replace my 9.6Vs which are worn out and no longer taking a charge.

From what I researched before posting above, both NiMH and Lithium both have higher current capabilities than alkaline 9V batteries, which may be the fix for my issue.. assuming it is a real problem at all.  I need to duplicate the condition in which it occurred to confirm it really is a problem, then to confirm that switching to a different battery type avoids the problem.

I was going to try a disposable lithium in it for something I recorded yesterday, but the store was out of them, so I went with standard alkaline again.  The music wasn't overly demanding though, so it wouldn't have been the a very good test anyway, but I could have at least checked the battery voltage over time, and see how much runtime I could get off one.
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: phil_er_up on December 22, 2016, 07:53:20 AM
Happy Holidays!!!

Thanks to all for the info on the batteries. Been following this and the other thread about 9V batteries.
Need some 9V rechargeable batteries.

Gutbucket had a link to 2 rechargeable batteries with a charger in bean thread.
That link no longer works.

Do you have to buy a specific charger for each type of battery?
Not sure which charger to buy? The charger for the specific batteries are not usually linked from the web battery page.

Any help would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 22, 2016, 09:21:10 AM
You'll need a charger suited to the nominal voltage of the battery.  Other good features to look for are individual charging circuits for each battery bay rather than one circuit powering multiple bays, and some sort of "smart charging" routine which monitors the battery under charge and shuts off the charger once the battery has reached full charge.

This is the one I use, which can charge both 8.4V and 9.6V NiMH PP3 (9V) batteries- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Powerex-MH-C490F-DC-9-Volt-9V-Battery-Charger-4-Channel-Smart-Battery-Charger_p_866.html (http://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Powerex-MH-C490F-DC-9-Volt-9V-Battery-Charger-4-Channel-Smart-Battery-Charger_p_866.html)

This one can also be switched to charge Lithium-Polymers via a hardware switch.  It works for 7.2V, 8.4V and 9.6V PP3 (9V) batteries- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/iPOWER-IP-FC904U-9-Volt--9V-NiMHLithiumNiCD-Battery-Charger_p_276.html (http://www.thomasdistributing.com/iPOWER-IP-FC904U-9-Volt--9V-NiMHLithiumNiCD-Battery-Charger_p_276.html)

As I was considering trying the Ipower or EBL Lithium-Polymer PP3s, I was going to buy the second one.  However I've decided not to go the Li-Po route and just ordered new Maha 9.6V NiMH batteries last night.  Apparently Maha has discontinued the Imedion brand which had been their Low Self Discharge NiMH line.  Their newest LSD NiMHs are branded as Powerex Precharged- https://www.amazon.com/Powerex-Self-Discharge-Precharged-Rechargeable-MHR9VP/dp/B01FV0U5WG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1482415851&sr=1-1&keywords=maha+9.6v+precharged (https://www.amazon.com/Powerex-Self-Discharge-Precharged-Rechargeable-MHR9VP/dp/B01FV0U5WG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1482415851&sr=1-1&keywords=maha+9.6v+precharged)
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: morst on December 30, 2016, 06:30:40 PM
Your friendly-neighborhood devil's advocate just found 4-packs of Alkaline Walgreens 9v cells for 2/ $10! That's $1.25 per unit.

 :tomato:

Now please go back to being earth-friendly! Thank you!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
Post by: Ben Turnbull on January 10, 2017, 04:53:04 AM
^ Yeah, and when they're dry... where you are... just toss them in the ocean.  What could be worse washing up, these or crap from that little Japanese accident/washout deal a couple years ago?   ;)