Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: old and in the way on April 13, 2018, 07:35:20 AM

Title: sanken cs m1
Post by: old and in the way on April 13, 2018, 07:35:20 AM
http://www.sankenmicrophones.com/production/shotguns/cs-m1/ interesting short shotguns
Title: Re: sanken cs m1
Post by: heathen on April 13, 2018, 08:36:14 AM
Going just by the numbers it looks like there's not much bass to be had with these, but that's to be expected with shotguns right?
Title: Re: sanken cs m1
Post by: Gutbucket on April 13, 2018, 08:52:20 AM
You probably already know what I'll suggest with respect to that-

Try one of these (or pair- coincident X/Y PAS) in the center between a pair of widely spaced omnis. In which case the reduced low end sensitivity becomes a positive feature by not cluttering up the bass the omnis provide.
Title: Re: sanken cs m1
Post by: illconditioned on April 13, 2018, 11:52:40 AM
I've made some very nice recordings from the back of chatty rooms using AKG C747 mini shotgun microphone.  I expect these to be similar sounding, probably quite a bit better.

They act like a hypercard at low frequencies, and focus with higher frequency.
If you are on axis, the response is very smooth.

Yes, the bass rolls off a bit, but most venues have too much bass already.

Would love to try these out some day...

Title: Re: sanken cs m1
Post by: dactylus on April 13, 2018, 12:09:26 PM

Priced at $895 at Trew Audio:  https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sanken-cs-m1/

Title: Re: sanken cs m1
Post by: Ronmac on April 13, 2018, 12:38:38 PM
These will work very well for the designed purpose, as a dialogue mic at a short distance from subject.

For anything else.....

I own the Neumann Holy Trinity of mics for film dialogue ( KMR82i, KMR81i, KM150) and similar Sennheisers. I wouldn't use any of them for live music capture (other than spot mics in some situations).

Title: Re: sanken cs m1
Post by: Gutbucket on April 13, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
These will work very well for the designed purpose, as a dialogue mic at a short distance from subject.


However, like the reduced bottom response, this type of dialog mic response actually works very well when used as a center mic (or center pair) combined with wide omnis for recording music.  Not the intended application, and a pair of them may or may not work well for music on their own, but I find this type of response tends to mesh really well with the omnis, in fact often better than a more balanced response microphone intended for recording music.
Title: Re: sanken cs m1
Post by: DSatz on April 14, 2018, 11:52:20 PM
The fundamentals of acoustics don't go away if you try to ignore them ...

Sanken doesn't particularly design their shotgun microphones for music recording, nor do they market them for that purpose. They deliberately attenuate the bass and boost the upper midrange because that improves speech intelligibility for dialog recording. This is in keeping with most other manufacturers of shotgun microphones (as well as most super- and hypercardioid microphones generally).

I know of only two manufacturers (no surprise: Schoeps and Neumann) who have seriously designed their shotguns for music pickup as well as for speech. I own both brands, and the difference in the naturalness and attractiveness of the sound quality between them and any other brands I've ever tried is striking. Still, wherever possible I do not and would not use shotguns for music recording at all, since good supercardioids sound so much better, particularly in reverberant recording environments. This is largely a function of the smoothness of their frequency response at ALL angles of sound incidence, which in turn is tied to their keeping the same directional pattern throughout their entire frequency range--exactly what a conventional, single-capsule shotgun microphone can't do (see below).

Sanken offers some shotguns (the best one being the CS-3e) that have multiple capsules, combined electronically in a way that gives them a narrow pattern across most of the audio range. But at the price point of this new 4" model, I think it can only have one capsule. That, in combination with its shorter-than-usual interference tube, means that its pattern will have a "crossover" frequency in the upper midrange; below that frequency it will function as something like a supercardioid, while the narrower pattern will occur only above the crossover frequency [note added later: Yes, this is borne out by the polar diagrams that Sanken has up on their Web site]. With single-capsule shotguns, the shorter the interference tube, the higher the frequency of that crossover, and the broader the pickup pattern even at its narrowest. Longer shotguns have both a narrower pattern at high frequencies, AND a lower crossover to the region in which they have that narrower pattern.

[edited later to add some explanation:] The interference tube in a shotgun microphone is in front of the microphone's capsule; the capsule is NOT at the tip of the microphone as people might suppose. The tube has multiple slots in its sides, which create a variety of possible path lengths for sound arriving from the sides and back. For such off-axis sound, these different, simultaneous path lengths cause arrival-time/phase conflicts, and thus partial cancellation. On-axis sound isn't affected in this way, since it enters via the "front door" and goes straight to the capsule.

The interference tube's effect is completely dependent on acoustic wavelengths, though. If a signal whose frequency has a 10-foot wavelength (= 110 Hz) arrives from the side, and (let's say, for simplicity) because of entering via two different slots in the tube, a 1" difference in path lengths is created, the cancellation will be minimal--the two signal components will reinforce each other almost completely. But if the same thing happens to an off-axis signal component with a wavelength of 2" (= 6.6 kHz), that same 1" path length difference becomes a much larger fraction of the sound wavelength. It will cause a 180-degree phase conflict (= maximum cancellation).

Thus the length of the interference tube, in relation to the wavelengths of off-axis sound, determines the effect (if any) that the tube will have on the pickup of that off-axis sound. The shorter the tube, the more of the audio frequency range it CANNOT affect--and also, the less narrowing effect it will have overall. Each time you reduce the tube's length by half, one more octave of sound falls beneath the range that it can affect. Keep making it shorter, and pretty soon it will affect only the overtones of musical sound, but not the main sound itself.

The main application for shotgun microphones is dialog recording with a boom, and the boom operator's arms get tired, so manufacturers like to keep their shotgun microphones as lightweight as possible. And to reduce the risk of shadows showing up in the film or video frame (and to allow the actual capsules to get as close to the talent as possible, despite the interference tube being in the way), they want to keep them as short and inconspicuous as possible. The key frequency region is 2 to 4 kHz where the energy of spoken consonants mainly occur. The goal is to get the pickup in that region to be as "dry" and direct as possible. So for example a typical professional "short shotgun" (Schoeps CMIT 5 and siblings; Neumann KMR 81 and the "M" mike in their RSM 190/191 stereo shotgun) might be about 9" long; the interference tube takes effect in the critical region above 2.5 to 3 kHz. For a long shotgun such as the Neumann KMR 82 (about 15-1/2" total length), the interference tube affects the sound above ca. 1.5 kHz while allowing direct pickup only from a narrower angle.[end of added material]

Shotgun microphones of the usual kind (i.e. single-capsule) don't have the same pickup pattern at low and low-mid frequencies as they have at high-mid and higher frequencies. For this reason, coincident stereo recording with a pair of shotgun microphones isn't generally a good idea. What angle would you set between them--the angle that suits their (broader) low/mid pickup pattern, or the angle that suits their (narrower) high-frequency pickup pattern? You can't have both, so whichever angle you choose, it will be wrong for one end of the spectrum or the other by definition.

--best regards

P.S.: The AKG C 747 which someone mentioned earlier in this thread is NOT a shotgun microphone nor did AKG sell it as one; it is just a directional microphone designed for speech pickup. It does that job well enough, though it's on the noisy side.