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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: TheMysticMuse on June 25, 2019, 05:08:53 PM

Title: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: TheMysticMuse on June 25, 2019, 05:08:53 PM
Hi everyone!

while downloading some shows from a taper he told me about this place. I want to get into taping but I don't know anything about microphones/portable recorders, basically I don't know anything about the equipment needed for taping. I hear many talking about stealth recording set-ups. Is there any down-side stealth-recording and the equipment needed for this compared to "normal" recording? If stealth recording doesn't affect the sound, why don't everyone stealth record even though taping is allowed? Isn't it convenient to record while not having to think about the mic setup etc?

I would also welcome tips and good things to know about taping (where should I stand, will movement/dancing/digging to the music affect the sound or should I just stand still. ye basically a "good-to-know-guide" would be great to read. I've searched the web but haven't found anything.

So with all the nooby questions asked above I got a couple of more questions. What's a good set-up for a beginner? Or should I go "hard core" at the start and buy the taping equipments to a Rolls Royce? I will need everything (gear) that is required for taping. If anyone would like to share a good set-up to me that would be cool. Sorry for the bad English, I'm Swedish.
Budget: no idea what I'd have to pay for a good set up but nothing more than 500 $ would be good (this is for all the equipment needed).

Looking forward to your replies so I can start taping  :)

Regards,
Christian

PS. Please move this thread to another sub-forum if this isn't the right place to post. Thanks mod!
   
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: daspyknows on June 25, 2019, 11:39:04 PM
Welcome.  Peruse the threads.  You can get a good setup for your budget.  There are a couple of cool tapers from Sweden on here who can provide some mentor-ship too I would expect.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: ilduclo on June 26, 2019, 08:25:01 AM
Stealth thing is pretty easy, I generally tape that way, if only to keep people from asking about it. Equipment is pretty straight forward. A set of Sound pro mics, a sound pro battery box and a Sony a10 should probably get you going at under $500. Used gear buys here are a good way to go, too. There’s a “complete” set up in the yard sale right now, also a Sony m10 which has really excellent battery life and is small. The m10 also has built in mics which might suit your needs for a start. Pretty simple that way. There’s also a set of ca11 mics in the yard sale that are in Europe.

What you tape also makes a difference. It’s hard to get a good recording at a big arena show or at a place where the audience does a lot of talking. But for bar shows with loud amplified music or  quieter music where the audience shuts up, you can get some pretty nice stuff

 Good luck, have fun & share your results freely!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: TheMetalist on June 26, 2019, 09:27:55 AM
Welcome!  :cheers:

I'm also from Sweden. In which area do you live?

You will most likely need to purchase your gear online from the US. It's unfortunately difficult to find dealers/sellers from Sweden, or even Europe. Luckily, shipping international is not a hugh deal nowadays. Just remember, when purchasing from a non EU country you'll have to pay approximatily 30% extra for custom charges.

Some beginners starts with only a recorder with decent internal microphones. If you ask me, and most tapers here, you'll get much better results with most external microphones. There are tons of options. It all depends on how much work you want to put into this and how important the end result is for you.

Here in Sweden we don't have an open taping spirit like in the US. At least all tapers I know from here do stealth. Do your thing and no questions asked.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: TheMysticMuse on June 26, 2019, 11:25:24 AM
Welcome.  Peruse the threads.  You can get a good setup for your budget.  There are a couple of cool tapers from Sweden on here who can provide some mentor-ship too I would expect.

I found some kind of "getting started" thread that I'll carefully read. I'm very committed to this. Sweet with some fellow comrades, I just saw that one has already replied. I recognize your name, think I have stuff that you have taped, thanks for what you're doing! 
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: TheMysticMuse on June 26, 2019, 11:29:23 AM
Stealth thing is pretty easy, I generally tape that way, if only to keep people from asking about it. Equipment is pretty straight forward. A set of Sound pro mics, a sound pro battery box and a Sony a10 should probably get you going at under $500. Used gear buys here are a good way to go, too. There’s a “complete” set up in the yard sale right now, also a Sony m10 which has really excellent battery life and is small. The m10 also has built in mics which might suit your needs for a start. Pretty simple that way. There’s also a set of ca11 mics in the yard sale that are in Europe.

What you tape also makes a difference. It’s hard to get a good recording at a big arena show or at a place where the audience does a lot of talking. But for bar shows with loud amplified music or  quieter music where the audience shuts up, you can get some pretty nice stuff

 Good luck, have fun & share your results freely!

 :cheers:

So recording stealth won't make the audio quality worse than if I recorded the regular way (what now that means)? Thanks for taking your time adressing a lot of my questions. Would you please send me a link to those "complete setups" that  you mentioned. I'll also have a look at that Sony gear. Is Zoom H6 a good recorder? For 350 bucks I can buy it with free delivery from a site called "thomann", got a a lot of good reviews.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: TheMysticMuse on June 26, 2019, 11:36:00 AM
Welcome!  :cheers:

I'm also from Sweden. In which area do you live?

You will most likely need to purchase your gear online from the US. It's unfortunately difficult to find dealers/sellers from Sweden, or even Europe. Luckily, shipping international is not a hugh deal nowadays. Just remember, when purchasing from a non EU country you'll have to pay approximatily 30% extra for custom charges.

Some beginners starts with only a recorder with decent internal microphones. If you ask me, and most tapers here, you'll get much better results with most external microphones. There are tons of options. It all depends on how much work you want to put into this and how important the end result is for you.

Here in Sweden we don't have an open taping spirit like in the US. At least all tapers I know from here do stealth. Do your thing and no questions asked.

Cool, since I'm new to trading/collecting ROIO I must say that I still haven't met a single Swede talking about bootlegs/live recordings. Is the taping scene "dead" here in Sweden? I live in the southern parts, närmare bestämt Jönköping, du då? Trevligt att råkas. Om du har tid får du gärna "guida/hjälpa" mig, är helt grön.

I've read that some just use the internal mics but I'll go for a good pair of microphones. I think I read somewhere that there's a brand called "Church" that apparently make really really good microphones, is this true? End result is very important for me. I only trade/download/share lossless, I'm a bit of an audiophile. I always verify everything that I download/upload to see if it could be possibly sourced or not. I don't wanna tape just for the matter of taping, I want a good, solid recording. Feel free to send me a PM and we can discuss further discussions. Really appreciate this.

Thanks guys for the help so far. Really looking forward to this, and of course I would never even think about selling recordings. I'm a sharer, everyone deserves to hear good music.

Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: seethreepo on June 26, 2019, 12:05:18 PM
Open taping in terms of quality has the advantage of being able to (use bigger and potentially better gear) and also the ability to raise microphones far above head (talking) height. 

The downside is many venues will restrict where you can stet up (which might not be ideal in terms of sound) 

Stealth taping  lets you record  from where ever you want (fob) or front of soundboard is often the best sound quality. you are also typically closer to the Pa  when stealthing.  So the increased sound levels will often compensate for a talkative crowd.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: flask on June 26, 2019, 12:13:46 PM
Stealth taping  lets you record  from where ever you want (fob) or front of soundboard is often the best sound quality. you are also typically closer to the Pa  when stealthing.  So the increased sound levels will often compensate for a talkative crowd.

The downside being that you need to stay relatively still and any talkers next to you may lead to insanity. :angry2:
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: ilduclo on June 26, 2019, 03:13:42 PM
 not necessarily. Stealth can sound really good, here's an example of mine. http://duclism.blogspot.com/2019/04/yob-may-3-2oo9.html

 Also, don't discount the onboard mics. A friend of mine in Mexico uses the m10 internal mics and gets some really good sounding recordings. Would they be better with expensive external mics and a preamp? Maybe. 

A lot of the sound quality of the recordings is the SOUND IN THE ROOM. If it sounds pretty good, most likely you can get a good recording. If not, not much can be done, no matter the cost of the gear.

As a caveat, Church is well thought of as equipment by many here (not me) , but there have been more than a few problems in shipping and repair, and since you're not in USA or Canada, that could be even worse. 


Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: opsopcopolis on June 26, 2019, 05:14:48 PM
If you're just starting out, an M10, battery box, and small pair of mics will serve you very well. I personally looooove the church gear, but anything similar (AT-853 for example) will get the job done just as well. With a long enough cable you can run them on a stand like you would a larger microphone, and they are very flexible for stealth situations when needed.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: nulldogmas on June 26, 2019, 05:35:38 PM
If you're just starting out, an M10, battery box, and small pair of mics will serve you very well. I personally looooove the church gear, but anything similar (AT-853 for example) will get the job done just as well. With a long enough cable you can run them on a stand like you would a larger microphone, and they are very flexible for stealth situations when needed.

Seconding everything above. I use the exact same gear (Church or AT-853 mics, battery box, M10) whether "stealthing" or taping open — the only difference is whether the mics are attached to me or to a stand.

You can certainly get better and more expensive gear that works better for open taping. (And, for that matter, other better and more expensive gear that works for stealthing.) But as a good entry-to-mid-level starting point, small recorder + battery box + stealthy mics should work well, and be doable for under $500.

Of course, you still have to decide between cardioid mics and omnis, which is a whole other matter...
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: mrfender on June 26, 2019, 05:42:10 PM
If you're just starting out, an M10, battery box, and small pair of mics will serve you very well. I personally looooove the church gear, but anything similar (AT-853 for example) will get the job done just as well. With a long enough cable you can run them on a stand like you would a larger microphone, and they are very flexible for stealth situations when needed.

I would echo this.  Being relatively new myself, I started with a DR05 (which is excellent for what it is) but changed to the M10 due to size, internal memory and fantastic battery life.  Paired with some Church/AT853s mics and a battery box or small preamp you can get some very good recordings.  Be sure to study up on mic placement and when to use omni or cardio mics as this plays a crucial role in how well you capture the sound.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: daspyknows on June 26, 2019, 06:01:24 PM
One thing to note when stealthing is small and easy to get passed security.  I do not know what security is like in Sweden but in the US and UK (my experience) is many venues are using metal detectors.  Methods for defeating that are discussed privately for obvious reasons.  Also, going the mics, preamp/battery box and recorder option is what I would suggest.  Not a fan of internal mics.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: opsopcopolis on June 27, 2019, 11:00:11 AM
If you're just starting out, an M10, battery box, and small pair of mics will serve you very well. I personally looooove the church gear, but anything similar (AT-853 for example) will get the job done just as well. With a long enough cable you can run them on a stand like you would a larger microphone, and they are very flexible for stealth situations when needed.

I would echo this.  Being relatively new myself, I started with a DR05 (which is excellent for what it is) but changed to the M10 due to size, internal memory and fantastic battery life.  Paired with some Church/AT853s mics and a battery box or small preamp you can get some very good recordings.  Be sure to study up on mic placement and when to use omni or cardio mics as this plays a crucial role in how well you capture the sound.

I made the same switch about 18 months ago. Used the DR05 for years, just liked the profile of the M10 a little more.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: ilduclo on June 27, 2019, 11:15:00 AM
another option for "all in one" is the Zoom Q3HD. Advantages, to me, are decent audio AND video from one box, small size.  Disadvantage is "poor audio recording quality" per some, but generally acknowledged as having poor battery life (but AA's are easy to buy as rechargeables.)

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/zoom-q3-review/

a fellow on Dime a Dozen uses this, and I think the results are plenty nice.

 http://www.dimeadozen.org/account-details.php?id=22429

the zoom H4N is supposedly better, both of them are available used for a reasonable price. Might be good starter recorders.

Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: heathen on June 27, 2019, 11:17:09 AM
Allow me to offer a slightly different perspective.  You don't need an M10.  Not only are they no longer available to purchase new, they seem to sell for more than other competent handheld recorders.  Your money is better spent on mics.  Get a recorder that will do the job for you, but the M10 isn't the only answer there.  Plenty of other recorders will be plenty fine (if I were in the market now I'd be very seriously considering the Roland R-07 which can be found for good prices and seems to be more than adequate as an M10 replacement (it even offers some features that the M10 doesn't).  There are of course even more options, but it's easy to get the impression in this forum that the M10 is the be-all-end-all in handhelds.

My recommendation would be AT853 mics with the 4.7k (aka low sensitivity) mod.  Add a simple battery box and you're in business.  I want to say that someone even had success with the low sensitivity AT853s direct into an R-07 at a loud show (Primus, maybe?), so it's possible you could get away with no battery box...or at least give it a shot.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: nulldogmas on June 27, 2019, 12:10:43 PM
The main advantage of the M10 is the battery life, which is approximately forever. Other than that, yeah, all the small handheld recorders are good.

AT853s with the 4.7 mod are indeed great, but I wouldn't recommend using them without a battery box. Nine times out of ten it might work fine, but that tenth time you'll be kicking yourself. (And battery boxes are relatively cheap and all work equally well.)

Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: ilduclo on June 27, 2019, 12:25:12 PM
really, what these last 2 guys said. That is some good advice. Good reliable gear at a reasonable price. Methinks you have your answer!

 :spin:
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: opsopcopolis on June 27, 2019, 12:58:34 PM
Agreed on the recorder. R07 and DR05 will both do the job just fine. As would the new A10
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: mrfender on June 27, 2019, 06:51:00 PM
So I went on Ebay to see what going prices are on the R07.  I now own an R07.  This is why I hate the internet.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Scooter123 on June 27, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
Get a Sony M-10. 

Then figure out your budget for a preamp and mikes.  The mikes will make the biggest difference in your recording.  Expensive Mikes=Better Recording. 
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: DavidPuddy on June 27, 2019, 08:43:24 PM
I'm going to recommend the A10 over the M10 especially if you won't be open taping. Controlling the recorder from your phone is a game changer.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: opsopcopolis on June 27, 2019, 09:30:03 PM
Expensive Mikes=Better Recording.

nahhhhhh
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: heathen on June 28, 2019, 12:59:58 AM
Expensive Mikes=Better Recording.

nahhhhhh

Ideal location + mics that are sufficient for the task at hand (regardless of whether they are expensive) and properly set up = best recording
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: ilduclo on June 28, 2019, 09:10:37 AM
Expensive Mikes=Better Recording.

nahhhhhh

Ideal location + mics that are sufficient for the task at hand (regardless of whether they are expensive) and properly set up = best recording

Yup, also needed,  decent sound system and talented soundman.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: cajuntaper on June 28, 2019, 06:05:46 PM
I'm new to taping as well. I will agree that a good basic rig to start is a decent set of mics, a battery box/pre-amp, and a recorder. I use a Zoom H4N with Church Audio mics (CA-14 and CA-11) and a Church Audio 9200 pre-amp. But, I only do open taping, so I don't have to worry about a stealth rig. The Zoom H4N seems like it might be bulkier than some of the Sony models mentioned, and probably not as compact for stealth purposes. It also kills batteries, so I use an external USB battery for it. With that basic set up I've pulled some good tapes with some experimentation. I also have a hard drive full of shows that will never be heard by anyone. It's like learning to do anything though. First you suck and make mistakes, but you learn from them and get better.

There's lots of great information on this forum, and I learn something new every time I come here.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: furburger on June 28, 2019, 09:51:01 PM
recording made with internals on deck that was $150 new (Tascam DR-2D), which I much prefer to any Sony digital recorders....the internals deck actually outperformed the $500 mics this night.

if you're on dime, quality samples are in the comments.

it's all about what you know, and how you utilize it.


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=652570
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: jcable77 on June 29, 2019, 03:27:41 AM
Maybe go on Live Music Archive and listen to a bunch of different recordings and put together some things you like about certain rigs/mics/recordings. You can put together a real recording rig for $500. Sometimes the advice on here can be a little iffy.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: TheMysticMuse on June 29, 2019, 04:16:18 AM
Wow! Thanks everyone for giving advice and wanting to help me out. I really appreciate this, and thank you those that have sent me private messages with a lot of useful information.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: daspyknows on June 29, 2019, 11:30:00 AM
Maybe go on Live Music Archive and listen to a bunch of different recordings and put together some things you like about certain rigs/mics/recordings. You can put together a real recording rig for $500. Sometimes the advice on here can be a little iffy.

Lots of stuff also posted on Kickdown Central thread on here too.  Pay specific attention to the type of music you plan to tape, the type of venue i.e. club, theater, arena, festival,  location AND mics and whether it is stealth or open taping.  You wi ll find what you like best and then reconcile with cost.  For me there are some mics I like and some (internal mics for example) that I do not like and typically just ignore. 

Also,  if purchasing on yard sale most folks selling gear are good folks but there have been a few bad apples that need to be avoided.  Feel free to reach out to others to inquire since there is general agreement on the bad apples.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: jerryfreak on June 29, 2019, 01:49:44 PM
Expensive Mikes=Better Recording.

nahhhhhh

Ideal location + mics that are sufficient for the task at hand (regardless of whether they are expensive) and properly set up = best recording
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: TheMysticMuse on June 30, 2019, 11:49:47 AM
Allow me to offer a slightly different perspective.  You don't need an M10.  Not only are they no longer available to purchase new, they seem to sell for more than other competent handheld recorders.  Your money is better spent on mics.  Get a recorder that will do the job for you, but the M10 isn't the only answer there.  Plenty of other recorders will be plenty fine (if I were in the market now I'd be very seriously considering the Roland R-07 which can be found for good prices and seems to be more than adequate as an M10 replacement (it even offers some features that the M10 doesn't).  There are of course even more options, but it's easy to get the impression in this forum that the M10 is the be-all-end-all in handhelds.

My recommendation would be AT853 mics with the 4.7k (aka low sensitivity) mod.  Add a simple battery box and you're in business.  I want to say that someone even had success with the low sensitivity AT853s direct into an R-07 at a loud show (Primus, maybe?), so it's possible you could get away with no battery box...or at least give it a shot.

Thanks for our advice. I will buy the Roland R-07 tomorrow, I've heard it's good for it's price and people have sent me private msgs here and recommendet it, it's also available in my city so this is great. I don't know what you mean with "the 4.7k mod". What is this? If I buy the AT853 mic I would need a batttery box right, or is the r-07 enough?
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: beatkilla on June 30, 2019, 12:27:56 PM
Allow me to offer a slightly different perspective.  You don't need an M10.  Not only are they no longer available to purchase new, they seem to sell for more than other competent handheld recorders.  Your money is better spent on mics.  Get a recorder that will do the job for you, but the M10 isn't the only answer there.  Plenty of other recorders will be plenty fine (if I were in the market now I'd be very seriously considering the Roland R-07 which can be found for good prices and seems to be more than adequate as an M10 replacement (it even offers some features that the M10 doesn't).  There are of course even more options, but it's easy to get the impression in this forum that the M10 is the be-all-end-all in handhelds.

My recommendation would be AT853 mics with the 4.7k (aka low sensitivity) mod.  Add a simple battery box and you're in business.  I want to say that someone even had success with the low sensitivity AT853s direct into an R-07 at a loud show (Primus, maybe?), so it's possible you could get away with no battery box...or at least give it a shot.

Thanks for our advice. I will buy the Roland R-07 tomorrow, I've heard it's good for it's price and people have sent me private msgs here and recommendet it, it's also available in my city so this is great. I don't know what you mean with "the 4.7k mod". What is this? If I buy the AT853 mic I would need a batttery box right, or is the r-07 enough?

The AT853 mics need a battery box AND also require the 4.7kmod(low sensitivity mod) or they will distort without that mod.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: heathen on June 30, 2019, 03:13:20 PM
Allow me to offer a slightly different perspective.  You don't need an M10.  Not only are they no longer available to purchase new, they seem to sell for more than other competent handheld recorders.  Your money is better spent on mics.  Get a recorder that will do the job for you, but the M10 isn't the only answer there.  Plenty of other recorders will be plenty fine (if I were in the market now I'd be very seriously considering the Roland R-07 which can be found for good prices and seems to be more than adequate as an M10 replacement (it even offers some features that the M10 doesn't).  There are of course even more options, but it's easy to get the impression in this forum that the M10 is the be-all-end-all in handhelds.

My recommendation would be AT853 mics with the 4.7k (aka low sensitivity) mod.  Add a simple battery box and you're in business.  I want to say that someone even had success with the low sensitivity AT853s direct into an R-07 at a loud show (Primus, maybe?), so it's possible you could get away with no battery box...or at least give it a shot.

Thanks for our advice. I will buy the Roland R-07 tomorrow, I've heard it's good for it's price and people have sent me private msgs here and recommendet it, it's also available in my city so this is great. I don't know what you mean with "the 4.7k mod". What is this? If I buy the AT853 mic I would need a batttery box right, or is the r-07 enough?

If you get the AT853s from Sounds Pros the low sensitivity mod is an option.  If you get them in the yard sale you might see it referred to as the 4.7k mod.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: morst on June 30, 2019, 04:36:45 PM
The main advantage of the M10 is the battery life, which is approximately forever.
Another advantage of the M10 is that it can handle input levels up to 2 volts. When it was introduced, I was using the old Zoom H2 that looked like an electric shaver, and the H2 could only handle 0.775 volts on the line in, or you had to use a pad cable.
Title: Become a Site Supporter Todaybsp
Post by: BeJimmieFaf on September 23, 2019, 12:28:26 PM
If I missed the post or thread in the forum I apologize. But I wanted to know, as the title suggests, how do you become a supporter so the whole forum becomes available for viewing?

Ride hard,
Sarasota Steve
Title: Re: Become a Site Supporter Todaybsp
Post by: daspyknows on September 23, 2019, 01:36:18 PM
If I missed the post or thread in the forum I apologize. But I wanted to know, as the title suggests, how do you become a supporter so the whole forum becomes available for viewing?

Ride hard,
Sarasota Steve

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127540.0
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: eman on September 24, 2019, 01:48:59 PM
Stealth: Can't talk to your friends AT ALL. Having no friends is a plus for stealth tapers, and of course that makes it easier to get in early when you don't have to wait for everyone to get dinner and drinks etc. Limited dancing, some would say not at all, but I don't have that kind of self control. Beer intake limited by the size of your bladder. Bands that play two sets are preferred so you can pee. Bands like Ween that play one 2.5 hour set are difficult. And finally, with a stand you can eliminate a lot of chatter by getting above the crowd. One way to record that is in between is having a small rig in a black bag that you find a small shelf of some sort to put it on, or on the floor in the balcony etc.  Downside is someone might think it is a bomb and have the show shut down. Clamps are discussed in here extensively.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Chrisedge on September 24, 2019, 04:09:53 PM
Might be too late, but highly recommend AT853s, small battery box and the Sony A10. The size, ability to bypass metal detectors, and phone operation are all winners in my book.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, is what kind of ROOM do you plan on recording in? Stadium? Arena? Theatre? Club? That makes a big difference on mics to buy (Pickup pattern)

Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: edtyre on September 24, 2019, 04:11:17 PM
I’ll keep it simple
AT 853 plus Sony A-10 or Roland R-07
If I was starting out today with a small budget
This gets me best recording in a good location
With or without a pre
I know, I have run this rig many times

Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: ThePiedPiper on September 28, 2019, 04:19:35 AM
I’ll keep it simple
AT 853 plus Sony A-10 or Roland R-07
If I was starting out today with a small budget
This gets me best recording in a good location
With or without a pre
I know, I have run this rig many times

+100. Exactly.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: MakersMarc on October 01, 2019, 05:29:22 PM
DPA 4061>d-vice>r-07. More expensive than the ATs but worth it. Maybe $1200 total.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: MakersMarc on October 01, 2019, 05:33:11 PM
recording made with internals on deck that was $150 new (Tascam DR-2D), which I much prefer to any Sony digital recorders....the internals deck actually outperformed the $500 mics this night.

if you're on dime, quality samples are in the comments.

it's all about what you know, and how you utilize it.


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=652570

Ignore this man, he’s more than slightly retarded.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: daspyknows on October 01, 2019, 06:37:31 PM
recording made with internals on deck that was $150 new (Tascam DR-2D), which I much prefer to any Sony digital recorders....the internals deck actually outperformed the $500 mics this night.

if you're on dime, quality samples are in the comments.

it's all about what you know, and how you utilize it.


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=652570

Ignore this man, he’s more than slightly retarded.

+1,000
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: heathen on October 02, 2019, 06:57:34 AM
recording made with internals on deck that was $150 new (Tascam DR-2D), which I much prefer to any Sony digital recorders....the internals deck actually outperformed the $500 mics this night.

if you're on dime, quality samples are in the comments.

it's all about what you know, and how you utilize it.


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=652570

Ignore this man, he’s more than slightly retarded.

+1,000

Nothing shows a new taper what a classy bunch we are quite like an ad hominem attack.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: jerryfreak on October 02, 2019, 07:15:39 AM
Agreed on the recorder. R07 and DR05 will both do the job just fine. As would the new A10
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: ycoop on October 02, 2019, 04:12:18 PM
recording made with internals on deck that was $150 new (Tascam DR-2D), which I much prefer to any Sony digital recorders....the internals deck actually outperformed the $500 mics this night.

if you're on dime, quality samples are in the comments.

it's all about what you know, and how you utilize it.


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=652570

Ignore this man, he’s more than slightly retarded.

Come on, retarded? Really?
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Ben Turnbull on December 08, 2019, 09:23:33 PM
So, no one has recommended Countryman B3 mics. Not as expensive as DPA 4060 but they're the same size, have slightly more robust cables and sound just fine. They have a good max SPL and come in high and normal sensitivity ratings.

Unless you've read a bit more now since your post, you may still be wondering about a few things. I recommend you start reading some of the posts found in the TS Knowledge Base Archive (http://taperssection.com/index.php?board=14.0). Take a topic heading... and read. Absorb what you can. Re-read what you don't get. Ask a question when you're stuck. Pick another topic. Rinse and repeat. Eventually you will become familiar with the concepts and some of the jargon. The puzzle will begin to take shape.

The more basic and general knowledge you gain, the better you will understand all the "moving" parts of making a good recording. You will start to understand what impacts the creation of a good recording. Some of that might end up being tied to the cost/quality of the gear. But starting out can be hard if your initial budget is too low and your expectations are too high. In the end it can come down to making some significant compromises in gear. To off set those, you learn or find ways to put yourself in the best sonic spot you can.

So read with an open mind, save as you go and when you're ready to buy you will be able to do the best work you can. Then give it some time to become a hobby or something else.

Good Luck
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: jerryfreak on December 08, 2019, 10:33:19 PM
So, no one has recommended Countryman B3 mics. Not as expensive as DPA 4060 but they're the same size, have slightly more robust cables and sound just fine. They have a good max SPL and come in high and normal sensitivity ratings.

how do those do on high spl on PIP?

lookin at some budget mates for the ICD-UX560https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192831.0 (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192831.0)
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) on December 09, 2019, 12:45:01 AM
So, no one has recommended Countryman B3 mics. Not as expensive as DPA 4060 but they're the same size, have slightly more robust cables and sound just fine. They have a good max SPL and come in high and normal sensitivity ratings.

how do those do on high spl on PIP?

lookin at some budget mates for the ICD-UX560https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192831.0 (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192831.0)

I ran the b3's (b3>M10) for a solo Ryan Adams show (acoustic) and they were fine for that. I tried another time for a normal volume show and it was too much for the M10's PIP.

https://archive.org/details/radams2012-10-29.b3.flac24
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Ben Turnbull on December 09, 2019, 08:04:31 PM
My PIP experience w/the M10 is that the B3s, at least the ones I have, like a little more power. I switch to the high sensitivity*. The mics come in two sensitivity ratings, generally described as wireless or phantom powered. The former are rated at 140 dBA SPL while the phantom get a 10 dBA bump. Bought new, they're about half the cost of DPA 406x units. Check them out here. (https://countryman.com/product/b3-omnidirectional-lavalier/)

* Part of taping is knowing your gear and any limitations that might be exposed under stressful conditions. In our game, the sound source, the proximity to it and the volume one might expect will dictate which gear kit you take to the show or how the one you have will perform. I don't do "metal" shows but some string bands or that jazz drummer's kick might test me. So I scoot close or sit not so close as need be. (While it's not a perfect analog, I tend to think about sound waves behaving as light. The closer you are the brighter a light seems to be... the further back, for the same light, not so much.)

The PIP of the M10 I think is something like 2.5v. If you think you're show will be killer loud, put a battery box (or a small preamp) ahead of the recorder to protect the mics. Nothing replaces experience and experimentation to help cement these variables in your understanding of the game.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: nulldogmas on December 09, 2019, 08:21:18 PM
The PIP of the M10 I think is something like 2.5v. If you think you're show will be killer loud, put a battery box (or a small preamp) ahead of the recorder to protect the mics. Nothing replaces experience and experimentation to help cement these variables in your understanding of the game.  Good luck.

I've been using a battery box ever since a couple of bad experiences (13 years ago now) where I ended up with what should have been great recordings plagued with distortion. Yes, it's an extra item, but it's smaller than my recorder and never gets a second look from security (in my experience, anyway), so I'd rather be safe than have to trust my guesswork at SPLs.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Ben Turnbull on December 09, 2019, 11:02:48 PM
Well, running a BBox won't hurt, and if it's designed correctly, won't add any noise. Your experience is just that: Your gear, your venues, your music... you know what works for you. That's not a problem or unusual. And... you get good tapes.   :coolguy:

Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: morst on December 10, 2019, 05:19:51 AM

* ..So I scoot close or sit not so close as need be. (While it's not a perfect analog, I tend to think about sound waves behaving as light. The closer you are the brighter a light seems to be... the further back, for the same light, not so much.)
That is CORRECT, the "cube-square" or Inverse Square law indicates that light and sound do behave in a similar fashion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law
Quote
In photography and stage lighting, the inverse-square law is used to determine the "fall off" or the difference in illumination on a subject as it moves closer to or further from the light source. For quick approximations, it is enough to remember that doubling the distance reduces illumination to one quarter;[9] or similarly, to halve the illumination increase the distance by a factor of 1.4 (the square root of 2), and to double illumination, reduce the distance to 0.7 (square root of 1/2).


Sound in a gas
In acoustics, the sound pressure of a spherical wavefront radiating from a point source decreases by 50% as the distance r is doubled; measured in dB, the decrease is still 6.02 dB, since dB represents an intensity ratio.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: rocksuitcase on December 10, 2019, 10:00:01 AM

* ..So I scoot close or sit not so close as need be. (While it's not a perfect analog, I tend to think about sound waves behaving as light. The closer you are the brighter a light seems to be... the further back, for the same light, not so much.)
That is CORRECT, the "cube-square" or Inverse Square law indicates that light and sound do behave in a similar fashion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law
Quote
In photography and stage lighting, the inverse-square law is used to determine the "fall off" or the difference in illumination on a subject as it moves closer to or further from the light source. For quick approximations, it is enough to remember that doubling the distance reduces illumination to one quarter;[9] or similarly, to halve the illumination increase the distance by a factor of 1.4 (the square root of 2), and to double illumination, reduce the distance to 0.7 (square root of 1/2).


Sound in a gas
In acoustics, the sound pressure of a spherical wavefront radiating from a point source decreases by 50% as the distance r is doubled; measured in dB, the decrease is still 6.02 dB, since dB represents an intensity ratio.
We r getting way OT, but from my psychoacoustic days, we measured and found textbooks which say: while measuring a PA system from stage there is approximately a 6db drop in Sound Pressure Level (SPL) for every 10 feet of distance. (This is rule of thumb, not pure scientific, as specific frequencies will start dropping off more than 6dB per 10 feet at longer distances).
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: aaronji on December 10, 2019, 10:31:44 AM
SPL and distance are inversely proportional. Double the distance, halve the SPL (-6 dBSPL). Halve the distance, double the SPL (+6 dBSPL).
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: rocksuitcase on December 10, 2019, 11:24:28 AM
ack- I edited my post, it should have been 6dB per 10 feet; or more accurately, the formula Aaronji said Double the distance, halve the SPL (-6 dBSPL). Halve the distance, double the SPL (+6 dBSPL)
Moving waaaaay too fast this morning!
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: jerryfreak on December 10, 2019, 12:56:19 PM
in a room there is the reverberation radius where reflected sound makes all volume levels not decay according to the inverse square law
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: morst on December 10, 2019, 03:52:56 PM
in a room there is the reverberation radius where reflected sound makes all volume levels not decay according to the inverse square law
Yeah- that is true too. Should we start an Inverse Square law thread?
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: aaronji on December 10, 2019, 04:50:21 PM
Yes, the rule-of-thumb assumes a free field and some other things (like a point source). Even in a room, though, it is still a useful construct to consider, I think. The reverberant sound level and ambient noise are more-or-less constant everywhere in the room, so the relationship between the direct sound and distance still holds and, as you decrease the distance, you are increasing the proportion of direct sound recorded by an estimable quantity. The point source assumption may be a bigger issue, with repeaters and line arrays and whatnot. At least as I understand it...

In any event, the relationship between distance and sound pressure levels is not "inverse square" but just "inverse" (SPL is proportional to 1/r).
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: MakersMarc on December 10, 2019, 05:00:50 PM
My PIP experience w/the M10 is that the B3s, at least the ones I have, like a little more power. I switch to the high sensitivity*. The mics come in two sensitivity ratings, generally described as wireless or phantom powered. The former are rated at 140 dBA SPL while the phantom get a 10 dBA bump. Bought new, they're about half the cost of DPA 406x units. Check them out here. (https://countryman.com/product/b3-omnidirectional-lavalier/)

* Part of taping is knowing your gear and any limitations that might be exposed under stressful conditions. In our game, the sound source, the proximity to it and the volume one might expect will dictate which gear kit you take to the show or how the one you have will perform. I don't do "metal" shows but some string bands or that jazz drummer's kick might test me. So I scoot close or sit not so close as need be. (While it's not a perfect analog, I tend to think about sound waves behaving as light. The closer you are the brighter a light seems to be... the further back, for the same light, not so much.)

The PIP of the M10 I think is something like 2.5v. If you think you're show will be killer loud, put a battery box (or a small preamp) ahead of the recorder to protect the mics. Nothing replaces experience and experimentation to help cement these variables in your understanding of the game.  Good luck.

I’ll testify on the B3s. Lots of great Ben jazz tapes made B3>m10. Closer to DPA 4061 than half as good. Punch way above their cost.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: opsopcopolis on December 10, 2019, 06:22:58 PM

* ..So I scoot close or sit not so close as need be. (While it's not a perfect analog, I tend to think about sound waves behaving as light. The closer you are the brighter a light seems to be... the further back, for the same light, not so much.)
That is CORRECT, the "cube-square" or Inverse Square law indicates that light and sound do behave in a similar fashion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law
Quote
In photography and stage lighting, the inverse-square law is used to determine the "fall off" or the difference in illumination on a subject as it moves closer to or further from the light source. For quick approximations, it is enough to remember that doubling the distance reduces illumination to one quarter;[9] or similarly, to halve the illumination increase the distance by a factor of 1.4 (the square root of 2), and to double illumination, reduce the distance to 0.7 (square root of 1/2).


Sound in a gas
In acoustics, the sound pressure of a spherical wavefront radiating from a point source decreases by 50% as the distance r is doubled; measured in dB, the decrease is still 6.02 dB, since dB represents an intensity ratio.

That’s all true, but don’t forget that a well tuned line array should provide more or less equal spl throughout the room
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Ben Turnbull on December 10, 2019, 11:29:21 PM
Enough! We're going to scare the poor newbie.  ;D  Sorry to have side tracked the OP so far, 'just trying to add a little more context to the choice of gear question.  '

I suggest we stand for a 8 count and see what the next question might be.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Popmarter on December 11, 2019, 10:36:05 AM
OKM II Rock Studio incl. A3 - 338 euro (https://www.mp3-player.de/index.php?page=article&ID=1822)
(this version is good for both loud rock and soft stuff, making it an allround mic)

Sony A10 - 228 (Amazon.de)

568  euro + shipping/battery. Stretch the budget to 600 if you can, and you have a set that is capable of making excellent recordings and is 'beginnerfriendly'. No worries about battery, no worries about hiding (mic can be placed in your ears), can handle lot of spl's.

Used it for years, get close to the stack and if you do not have to many clappers around you it will turn out great.

This will keep you motivated and after a lot of gigs you are up for more.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: nulldogmas on December 11, 2019, 11:25:12 AM
OKM II Rock Studio incl. A3 - 338 euro (https://www.mp3-player.de/index.php?page=article&ID=1822)
(this version is good for both loud rock and soft stuff, making it an allround mic)


Those are omni mics, looks like. Which isn't necessarily a problem, but it will make them less useful for shows where you're farther from the sound source. #grossovergeneralizationofcardvsomnidebate

For small, affordable cardioid mics that pick up sounds primarily in one direction, I'd highly recommend the Audio-Technica 853s. They're not quite as small as some of the tiny omni mics out there, but they're as small as I've seen in an acceptable cardioid mic unless you're talking way-high-end stuff.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: Popmarter on December 11, 2019, 01:54:10 PM
OKM II Rock Studio incl. A3 - 338 euro (https://www.mp3-player.de/index.php?page=article&ID=1822)
(this version is good for both loud rock and soft stuff, making it an allround mic)


Those are omni mics, looks like. Which isn't necessarily a problem, but it will make them less useful for shows where you're farther from the sound source. #grossovergeneralizationofcardvsomnidebate

For small, affordable cardioid mics that pick up sounds primarily in one direction, I'd highly recommend the Audio-Technica 853s. They're not quite as small as some of the tiny omni mics out there, but they're as small as I've seen in an acceptable cardioid mic unless you're talking way-high-end stuff.

I agree, the AT853 are very good too and them being cardiods will benefit in most stealth situations. But since the AT853 is no longer available (there is a replacementtype, from which I forgot the exacttype) and he would have order from the US (customs and all), I gave the German Soundmans as a good  - no nonsense - always good recordings - alternative.
Title: Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
Post by: nulldogmas on December 11, 2019, 06:25:23 PM
I agree, the AT853 are very good too and them being cardiods will benefit in most stealth situations. But since the AT853 is no longer available (there is a replacementtype, from which I forgot the exacttype) and he would have order from the US (customs and all), I gave the German Soundmans as a good  - no nonsense - always good recordings - alternative.

The U853 is the replacement for the AT853. If it's not available in Europe, though, yeah, that's a problem.