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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: justme on August 22, 2019, 12:52:23 AM

Title: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on August 22, 2019, 12:52:23 AM
I just write a support ticket to Sound Devices about the poor SD memory card support when I noticed some previously unseen names in the product support list.

It appears as if a new updated version of the MixPre-3/6/10 series filed recorders are on the way!

These are named with a suffix of "II":
MixPre-3 II
MixPre-6 II
MixPre-10 II

Great news for mankind - but perhaps annoyingly sad for us with the old ones as we barely have any working medium to record onto.

(https://i.imgur.com/qXhqusa.png)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on August 22, 2019, 06:56:40 AM
They would hardly be the first manufacturer to fix a design or basic performance problem in a Gen-2 unit.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jeenash on August 22, 2019, 05:33:36 PM
I'd like to see a mixpre-2. Two channels and super small with the same preamps. Oh, and be able to run on aa's forever. Oh, oh, and made of little to no metal. Too much  to ask?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mountaintaper on August 22, 2019, 05:44:06 PM
I'd be happy with a transport lock function and recessed gain knobs.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on August 22, 2019, 06:40:37 PM
Bring back CF cards I say!  Where more of the data processing burden was implemented by the card itself. 

Other than that, most of our (non software fixable) gripes are due mainly to the physical size / layout of the machine, & I can't see SD spending $$$$$$ re-tooling the case. It would make it a different animal

So recessed gain knobs are out, as are a better placed  encoder knob, Hirose input,  etc.  But then I love that fact that the machine is so tiny. I guess you can't have it all ways. 

Doubtless there will now be great intrigue and much speculation over the coming months as to what exactly the -II suffix implies...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jbell on August 22, 2019, 06:54:20 PM
I've never had a problem with SD cards and I have one of the original batch of 8 mixpre-6 that hit the streets. 
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jcable77 on August 22, 2019, 07:11:54 PM
I've never had a problem with SD cards and I have one of the original batch of 8 mixpre-6 that hit the streets.
The one Ive been using for over a year and a half, I opened the box, grabbed a random sd card off my desk, formatted it, and made like 100 recordings with no issues at all. Same firmware it came with, I love the thing. Not to say I wont check out mk2.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on August 22, 2019, 08:25:04 PM
I've never had a problem with SD cards and I have one of the original batch of 8 mixpre-6 that hit the streets.
I see this posted all the time but people always fail to mention how many channels and at which bitrate
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on August 22, 2019, 09:07:37 PM
I've never had a problem with SD cards and I have one of the original batch of 8 mixpre-6 that hit the streets.
I see this posted all the time but people always fail to mention how many channels and at which bitrate

I have one of the SD branded 32gig cards and a 64gig from their approved list.

I run 6 channels every time, 4 phantom and 2 line in. 48khz mostly, but sometimes at 96khz, always 24bit. Never had a problem.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on August 22, 2019, 09:45:14 PM
I've never had a problem with SD cards and I have one of the original batch of 8 mixpre-6 that hit the streets.
I see this posted all the time but people always fail to mention how many channels and at which bitrate

Or whether recorded as a single multichannel file or as individual mono tracks.

When I first got an SD633 several years back, I was surprised and upset to get orange warning lights and some errors when recording to four or more mono tracks (all 24/96).  SD support advised me to record to a single file and split apart with Wave Agent software.  That's what I did, and then no more issues.  It seemed to me to be an SD thing and not a card issue, as all the cards I tried had that result.

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on August 22, 2019, 09:50:43 PM
Or whether recorded as a single multichannel file or as individual mono tracks.

The Mixpre series only writes as polywave multi channel files.

it seemed to me to be an SD thing and not a card issue, as all the cards I tried had that result.

SD makes great gear, but 7, 6 and mixpre recorders are all fairly different from one in another; one can only very infrequently analogize from one to the other :headphones:
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on August 22, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I've never had a problem with SD cards and I have one of the original batch of 8 mixpre-6 that hit the streets.
I see this posted all the time but people always fail to mention how many channels and at which bitrate

I have one of the SD branded 32gig cards and a 64gig from their approved list.

I run 6 channels every time, 4 phantom and 2 line in. 48khz mostly, but sometimes at 96khz, always 24bit. Never had a problem.

which brand of 64gb card? they no longer have a recommended list
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: seethreepo on August 22, 2019, 10:59:35 PM
I've never had a problem with SD cards and I have one of the original batch of 8 mixpre-6 that hit the streets.
I see this posted all the time but people always fail to mention how many channels and at which bitrate

I have one of the SD branded 32gig cards and a 64gig from their approved list.

I run 6 channels every time, 4 phantom and 2 line in. 48khz mostly, but sometimes at 96khz, always 24bit. Never had a problem.

which brand of 64gb card? they no longer have a recommended list
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on August 26, 2019, 11:27:27 AM
I’m not sure if that bold was directed at me but I was asking about the 64 gig card which I made the assumption wasn’t an SD branded card from Noah’s post
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on August 29, 2019, 01:15:14 PM
So now we know!

From today's mailout from SD:

Announcing the Mixpre II:
32-Bit Float Recording
142 dB of Dynamic Range
Internal Timecode Generator
Record up to 192 kHz


It seems that Zoom are keeping them on their toes!
(& I'm hoping the legal wrangling with zax*** has gone away)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: So Many Roads on August 29, 2019, 02:03:14 PM
bonus - the new MP 6 II is $50 less than the original.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1503005-REG/sound_devices_mixpre_6_ii_6_channel.html
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: spyder9 on August 29, 2019, 02:34:07 PM
Officially announced this afternoon.  Web pages are up:


MixPre-6 II

https://www.sounddevices.com/product/mixpre-6-ii/

MixPre-3 II

https://www.sounddevices.com/product/mixpre-3-ii/

MixPre-10 II

https://www.sounddevices.com/product/mixpre-10-ii/
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: BonoBeats on August 29, 2019, 02:35:21 PM
So now we know!

From today's mailout from SD:

Announcing the Mixpre II:
32-Bit Float Recording
142 dB of Dynamic Range
Internal Timecode Generator
Record up to 192 kHz


It seems that Zoom are keeping them on their toes!
(& I'm hoping the legal wrangling with zax*** has gone away)

I'm guessing the 32 bit float wouldn't be available as a software update on the original MixPre6 series, correct? Assuming dual ADCs, similar to the F6.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DavidPuddy on August 29, 2019, 02:56:10 PM
So now we know!

From today's mailout from SD:

Announcing the Mixpre II:
32-Bit Float Recording
142 dB of Dynamic Range
Internal Timecode Generator
Record up to 192 kHz


It seems that Zoom are keeping them on their toes!
(& I'm hoping the legal wrangling with zax*** has gone away)

I'm guessing the 32 bit float wouldn't be available as a software update on the original MixPre6 series, correct? Assuming dual ADCs, similar to the F6.

The FAQs on the website state that the upgrades are hardware based unfortunately.

At least send us the headphone wheel  :smash:
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on August 29, 2019, 03:26:28 PM
At least send us the headphone wheel  :smash:

Ain't no knob, that's a LEGO tire :yahoo:
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on August 29, 2019, 03:34:48 PM
This is a bit worrying though.

What are my media options?

We recommend our SAM-32SD card. Additionally, most reputable manufacturers’ cards (such as SanDisk or Delkin) that meet or exceed class 10 speeds are acceptable.

They still only have one single SD card listed as approved. Their own.
https://www.sounddevices.com/mixpre-series-approved-media-list/
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DSatz on August 29, 2019, 04:54:29 PM
Are people here aware that Zoom already announced a recorder with 32-bit float encoding? See http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161 .

(Zoom didn't manage to get any such recorders onto store shelves yet, but hey--an announcement is almost as good, right?)

Seriously, though, SD's gear is first-rate, but 32-bit float encoding isn't the unalloyed blessing that people might wish to believe. The description of 32-bit float audio files that SD has posted is really disappointing because by taking this one aspect of recording out of context, a highly misleading impression is easily created.

A recorder is a system with multiple functional stages. Just because the last stage of recording (the physical storage of data) has an absurdly wide dynamic range, that in itself doesn't affect the dynamic range of the earlier stages--the input circuitry, mike or line preamps, and a/d converters. They, or something earlier in the chain (such as venue noise or in some cases microphone noise) were always the limiting factor, assuming that one's recording levels have been set more or less correctly, and now ... gosh, they're still the limiting factor.

--best regards
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: ts on August 29, 2019, 05:06:32 PM
Thanks dsatz. I was just buried in google searches for 32 bit float and decided to say, “float this”.

That said, will the 3 ll be $599? 🤩
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: kindms on August 29, 2019, 05:48:20 PM
USB Audio: 4 channels

looks like if the new sonosax drops this would be able to utilize that interface
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on August 29, 2019, 06:10:01 PM
Are people here aware that Zoom already announced a recorder with 32-bit float encoding? See http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161 .

(Zoom didn't manage to get any such recorders onto store shelves yet, but hey--an announcement is almost as good, right?)

Seriously, though, SD's gear is first-rate, but 32-bit float encoding isn't the unalloyed blessing that people might wish to believe. The description of 32-bit float audio files that SD has posted is really disappointing because by taking this one aspect of recording out of context, a highly misleading impression is easily created.

this has been discussed extensively in the zoom thread as well, specifically the implementation and how the switching between the two ADCs can be problematic.

I recorded a show on friday on my mixpre6 and at the last minute switched from custom to advanced (or vice-versa, i cant remember) at the last minute to disarm the mixdown channels. it switched 2 of my channels from +30 dB to close to zero dB. peaks were around -40dB and have no noticeable noise upon normalizing. 142dB dynamic range is a nice spec but offers little advantage to the 120ish of the last model for most applications

id be leery to use 32-bit float at high bitrates since the  current unit chokes on 8 channels of 24 bit with most cards
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on August 29, 2019, 06:25:31 PM
I was composing this post this morning but got distracted with other things.  Glad the discussion has moved to where I was going with it. DSatz, please let me know if any of this is offbase..


Are there actual measurements posted anywhere indicating the dynamic range of the analog input stage of the mic/line inputs prior to reaching the ADC?  I've not been able to find this information with a brief web search, only reviews stating they are subjectively "quiet", yet I imagine someone somewhere must have bench tested it.  According to the press releases the preamps have NOT been changed, so both the I and II series MixPres should be identical in this respect. 

Why does this matter?  It dictates the dynamic-range limit for any analog input (mics or line-in).  The only inputs which could be capable of exceeding that are digital inputs, and the only digital inputs on these recorders are USB.

If one wants to forgo the need to make any input trim adjustment while recording (the purported advantage of 32-bit float): The dynamic range of the microphones used, must fit comfortably within the dynamic range of the analog input stage, which must fit comfortably within the dynamic range of the ADC.

On a traditional recorder we manually adjust input-trim to fit the microphone's output range comfortably within the limited dynamic ranges of both the input/preamp stage and ADC, and sometimes manually switch input sensitivity ranges to better fit the dynamic range of the that input/preamp stage to that of the ADC.

For those using the same set of microphones each time (microphone sensitivity doesn't change session to session) I think we can achieve the same no-trim-fiddling during recording functionality with the existing 24bit MixPres by setting the input trim appropriately initially and leaving it there. [edit, assuming the approximately 130dB or so of dynamic range through the kashmir preamps (see below) slightly exceeds that of your microphones]
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on August 29, 2019, 06:29:38 PM
Just found a source stating the kashmir mic preamps have a -130dBV noise floor, which is indicative of the real-world dynamic range limitation through the analog-inputs if my reasoning above is correct.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on August 29, 2019, 06:42:38 PM
Seriously, though, SD's gear is first-rate, but 32-bit float encoding isn't the unalloyed blessing that people might wish to believe. The description of 32-bit float audio files that SD has posted is really disappointing because by taking this one aspect of recording out of context, a highly misleading impression is easily created.

You're absolutely correct in pointing out the DR limitations elsewhere in the chain . IMHO the 32bit spec is very much a market driven "upgrade", as the extended dynamic range thing seems to be where the market's at right now.  (Sonosax, Zoom, Z*com, and now SD).

I think most of us know whether we're going out to record ants crawling on a leaf, or a metal band in a local warehouse, so we just set the levels accordingly - and there's just so much DR already available on these recorders to allow for conservative level settings & even a set-&-forget  policy.

The limiter improvements would seem to be of much more practical use.   The film people were bemoaning the rather sluggish release time of the original Mixpre limiters, so the new adjustments will probably improve their transparency with  gunshots, engine backfires, etc.  (Though it's hard to beat the instantaneous compression on the old Nagra tape machines!)

For now I'm quite happy with my vintage MP6 MK1, though I might make the bold step of updating from v2.21 now the bugs seem to have been ironed out...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on August 29, 2019, 06:47:21 PM
-130 dB EIN is the stated input spec at 150 ohms, and 120 dB on the ADC side

obviously both of these are considerably higher than the dynamic range of mics, which is closer to 80 dB when recording even the loudest of concerts


Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DSatz on August 29, 2019, 08:55:11 PM
> ... the dynamic range of mics, which is closer to 80 dB ...

jerryfreak, signal-to-noise ratios for microphones are calculated in an unintuitive way: downward from 1 Pascal, which is equivalent to about 94 dB SPL. That's why you see spec-sheet values such as 80 dB even for professional microphones. It's like giving the s/n ratio of a power amp based on only a 1-Watt output, even though the amplifier might be capable of 300 Watts per side.

In practice, measuring from the noise floor to (typically) the 0.5% THD point, good condenser microphones can have a "working" range of 120-130 dB. Subtract the CCIR equivalent noise from the maximum SPL (even though the noise is frequency-weighted and somewhat time-averaged while the max. SPL is not) to get an idea of this.


> -130 dB EIN is the stated input spec at 150 ohms

Equivalent input noise (EIN) for microphone preamps is usually reported in dBu, not dBV; because of the different reference voltage, the dBV number is ~2.2 dB more impressive looking. (Tsk, tsk.)

EIN also depends on the impedance that the input "sees"--in actual use, the output impedance of the microphone plus its cable--but you said that 150 Ohms was specified, and that's completely normal. As I recall, the physical limit for an input referenced to a 150 Ohm driving impedance is something like -127.5 dBu--I don't remember the tenths digit for sure--but -130 dBV could simply be a rounding off to the nearest whole decibel of the EIN of a preamp that comes very close to the theoretical limit.

Many other good preamps for decades have come within a fraction of a dB of that limit, but the usual professional practice has been to use dBu, and to round the result to the nearest tenth of a decibel. So -130 dBV looks better, but isn't really. Anyway, even the quietest microphones are audibly noisier than that.

--best regards

P.S.: Even more important than those small fractions of a dB: Spec-sheet noise figures for preamps are nearly always obtained with the gain cranked all the way up--which is where the best numerical results are obtained, even though few people use such settings very often.

I did a rampage of preamp comparisons eight or ten years ago but I wanted to measure the noise at gains I typically use in concert recording, so I set them all for 30-35 dB gain. The rankings changed drastically as a result. In my opinion, preamp EIN (and maximum input voltage) should be specified at a variety of gain levels--say at 20, 40 and 60 dB.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on August 29, 2019, 09:03:07 PM
This is a bit worrying though.

What are my media options?

We recommend our SAM-32SD card. Additionally, most reputable manufacturers’ cards (such as SanDisk or Delkin) that meet or exceed class 10 speeds are acceptable.

They still only have one single SD card listed as approved. Their own.
https://www.sounddevices.com/mixpre-series-approved-media-list/

Same for gen 1!  I've had no issues with their card or a Sandisk though....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on August 29, 2019, 09:03:38 PM
I'll just leave this here.  Rather curious, since the "II" versions must have been in development at the time this post was written:

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2297397#msg2297397 (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2297397#msg2297397)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on August 29, 2019, 10:59:50 PM
I know this contradicts stuff I've said before, but since being involved in the development of the 32-bit float MixPre-II, I'm a convert and am happy to admit I was wrong when I said 32-bit float has little relevance in a field recorder.

Having said that, for the majority of sound recording applications and for those who know how to gain stage, 24-bit has always been way more than enough to capture high fidelity recordings when combined with high quality, low noise/low distortion microphones, preamps and ADCs. That hasn't changed. So then, why the big deal with 32-bit float files ...

1) The first thing to note is that a 32-bit float file is a vast container that is essentially impossible to overload/clip. With 24-bit fixed-point file format, if you exceed 0dBFS (digital word = all 1's), distortion is burned into the recording and cannot be undone; with 32-bit float you can exceed 0dBFS by hundreds of dB and your audio will not incur digital overload distortion. Import that 32-bit float file into most DAWs and you have undistorted audio and associated waveform. The waveform may look clipped, but simply drag down the gain to normalize to below 0dBFS and you have a waveform that is no longer flat top!
2) When a 32-bit float file is combined with an ultra low noise, wide dynamic range input stage, you can record beyond the dynamic range (quietest to loudest sounds) offered by the highest quality microphones.
3) 32-bit float offers precision representation equally across the entire dynamic range. With traditional 24-bit fixed-point, super quiet signals may typically be just loud enough to have the lowest 4-8 bits (of the 24 available) be active - not great resolution at all. With floating point, even those super low level signals are represented by a full array of bits, thus maintaining accuracy at all levels. When you now normalize this low level signal back to 0dBFS, the precision is still there.

Here is a paper we put together regarding 32-bit float ...
https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-float-files-explained/

Paul
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on August 30, 2019, 02:48:54 AM
I know this contradicts stuff I've said before, but since being involved in the development of the 32-bit float MixPre-II, I'm a convert and am happy to admit I was wrong when I said 32-bit float has little relevance in a field recorder.

Having said that, for the majority of sound recording applications and for those who know how to gain stage, 24-bit has always been way more than enough to capture high fidelity recordings when combined with high quality, low noise/low distortion microphones, preamps and ADCs. That hasn't changed. So then, why the big deal with 32-bit float files ...

1) The first thing to note is that a 32-bit float file is a vast container that is essentially impossible to overload/clip. With 24-bit fixed-point file format, if you exceed 0dBFS (digital word = all 1's), distortion is burned into the recording and cannot be undone; with 32-bit float you can exceed 0dBFS by hundreds of dB and your audio will not incur digital overload distortion. Import that 32-bit float file into most DAWs and you have undistorted audio and associated waveform. The waveform may look clipped, but simply drag down the gain to normalize to below 0dBFS and you have a waveform that is no longer flat top!
2) When a 32-bit float file is combined with an ultra low noise, wide dynamic range input stage, you can record beyond the dynamic range (quietest to loudest sounds) offered by the highest quality microphones.
3) 32-bit float offers precision representation equally across the entire dynamic range. With traditional 24-bit fixed-point, super quiet signals may typically be just loud enough to have the lowest 4-8 bits (of the 24 available) be active - not great resolution at all. With floating point, even those super low level signals are represented by a full array of bits, thus maintaining accuracy at all levels. When you now normalize this low level signal back to 0dBFS, the precision is still there.

Here is a paper we put together regarding 32-bit float ...
https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-float-files-explained/

Paul
Paul have you addressed the buffering issues in the new units? the current versions of mixpres crash at high channel/bitrate loads with most of the SD cards on the market, despite them testing above proper U3 sequential read rates (10x what is required at 8 ch of 24/192)

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191314.0

 
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on August 30, 2019, 06:58:27 AM
3) 32-bit float offers precision representation equally across the entire dynamic range. With traditional 24-bit fixed-point, super quiet signals may typically be just loud enough to have the lowest 4-8 bits (of the 24 available) be active - not great resolution at all. With floating point, even those super low level signals are represented by a full array of bits, thus maintaining accuracy at all levels. When you now normalize this low level signal back to 0dBFS, the precision is still there.

Paul,

Thanks for checking in here.  The benefits of recovering levels exceeding 0 dBFS are clear to me.  What is not as clear is your item 3 quoted above.  Several months ago, Samuel Green from Zoom made the same assertion at NAB when commenting on the F6.  This caught my attention then, and you reminded me of it again.  Are you saying that in FP recording, the full spectrum of bits "floats down" to the very low signal?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on August 30, 2019, 09:47:25 AM
3) 32-bit float offers precision representation equally across the entire dynamic range. With traditional 24-bit fixed-point, super quiet signals may typically be just loud enough to have the lowest 4-8 bits (of the 24 available) be active - not great resolution at all. With floating point, even those super low level signals are represented by a full array of bits, thus maintaining accuracy at all levels. When you now normalize this low level signal back to 0dBFS, the precision is still there.

Paul,

Thanks for checking in here.  The benefits of recovering levels exceeding 0 dBFS are clear to me.  What is not as clear is your item 3 quoted above.  Several months ago, Samuel Green from Zoom made the same assertion at NAB when commenting on the F6.  This caught my attention then, and you reminded me of it again.  Are you saying that in FP recording, the full spectrum of bits "floats down" to the very low signal?

Essentially yes. What I'm saying is there is a lot more resolution and range for very low signals too. It's not quite as simple as all bits 'floating down' since 32-bit float is not like fixed-point in that it comprises of a mantissa and exponent to represent huge +ve numbers and -ve numbers way beyond what 24-bit fixed point offers. I suggest you read the section on 32-bit float in our paper and follow the link to IEEE 754 if you're interested in knowing more. https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-float-files-explained/
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: gewwang on August 30, 2019, 11:03:45 AM
Paul,

Has Sound Devices management ever considered maybe giving the early adopters of these products some sort of incentive for upgrading to the next version? Or rewarding them for being the early adopters and providing valuable feedback towards the development of the next version?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on August 30, 2019, 12:57:26 PM
3) 32-bit float offers precision representation equally across the entire dynamic range. With traditional 24-bit fixed-point, super quiet signals may typically be just loud enough to have the lowest 4-8 bits (of the 24 available) be active - not great resolution at all. With floating point, even those super low level signals are represented by a full array of bits, thus maintaining accuracy at all levels. When you now normalize this low level signal back to 0dBFS, the precision is still there.

Paul,

Thanks for checking in here.  The benefits of recovering levels exceeding 0 dBFS are clear to me.  What is not as clear is your item 3 quoted above.  Several months ago, Samuel Green from Zoom made the same assertion at NAB when commenting on the F6.  This caught my attention then, and you reminded me of it again.  Are you saying that in FP recording, the full spectrum of bits "floats down" to the very low signal?

What I'm saying is there is a lot more resolution and range for very low signals too. [snip]

What I remain to be convinced of is that 32bit floating point somehow improves "resolution" of low level signals through the A>D conversion.  This claim seems to contradict Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem.

The SD 32-bit-float-files-explained paper does not address this.  It concerns manipulation of a signal after it is represented as a 32-bit float format.

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on August 30, 2019, 01:29:57 PM
3) 32-bit float offers precision representation equally across the entire dynamic range. With traditional 24-bit fixed-point, super quiet signals may typically be just loud enough to have the lowest 4-8 bits (of the 24 available) be active - not great resolution at all. With floating point, even those super low level signals are represented by a full array of bits, thus maintaining accuracy at all levels. When you now normalize this low level signal back to 0dBFS, the precision is still there.

Paul,

Thanks for checking in here.  The benefits of recovering levels exceeding 0 dBFS are clear to me.  What is not as clear is your item 3 quoted above.  Several months ago, Samuel Green from Zoom made the same assertion at NAB when commenting on the F6.  This caught my attention then, and you reminded me of it again.  Are you saying that in FP recording, the full spectrum of bits "floats down" to the very low signal?

What I'm saying is there is a lot more resolution and range for very low signals too. [snip]

What I remain to be convinced of is that 32bit floating point somehow improves "resolution" of low level signals through the A>D conversion.  This claim seems to contradict Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem.

The SD 32-bit-float-files-explained paper does not address this.  It concerns manipulation of a signal after it is represented as a 32-bit float format.

This is why I asked my question; I had read the SD document already, and did not find the answer there, nor can I find any other documentation from other sources that address the low-level signal resolution.

Then there is the aspect of this that DSatz spoke of at length on the F6 thread: the internal noise floor.  If 32-bit float files truly do record low signals with better resolution as a result of more bits being available, the self-noise will still limit how low you can go.  Perhaps this scheme will still show its benefits at typical low signal levels in a recording.

Lastly, I think all of us are really waiting to hear are raw samples of very wide dynamic range music recorded in both fixed and float-point.  I want to hear just how transparently the ADC transitions between its segments, or if you can hear it working like you do a limiter.  So far, all we have are dialogue samples from both companies.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: EmRR on August 30, 2019, 01:47:03 PM
Yep, what DSatz said.

Elsewhere, I've reported there are ways to overdrive the input circuitry of an F8n without hitting digital zero, in fact with line input trim set to -10, it squarewaves at about -5.5dBFS.

I don't know about the SD units.  If 32 bit float were to mean what's somewhat implied by the marketing, I'd want the analog input circuit before the AD to have at least 6dB more headroom than the AD, and that rarely if ever happens.  32 bit float is still a good thing for removing dither point penalty with drastic gain changes in post. 

Playback devices tend to have similar bottlenecks, with analog output circuitry having no headroom beyond max converter output, so a really hot brick walled playback source will make a lot of players sound different from one another because of the distortion artifacts, with some players going into obvious blatant distortion. 
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on August 30, 2019, 02:03:05 PM
What I remain to be convinced of is that 32bit floating point somehow improves "resolution" of low level signals through the A>D conversion.  This claim seems to contradict Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem.
Nyquist says it's a perfect representation, I don't really care how many bits it takes. If it's a quiet signal, then 4-8 bits should be plenty. The rest of the 32 will be a detailed retelling of all the circuit noise beneath.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DATBRAD on August 30, 2019, 02:31:23 PM
Application is key to the benefits of even 24 bit. For example, when recording a concert sound reinforcement system, the following section from Rane says it all.

"For sound systems, the maximum loudness level is what is achievable before acoustic feedback, or system squeal begins. While the minimum level is determined by the overall background noise. It is significant that the audio equipment noise is usually swamped by the HVAC (heating, ventilating & air conditioning) plus audience noise. Typical minimum noise levels are 35-45 dB SPL (sound pressure level), with typical loudest sounds being in the 100-105 dB SPL area. (Sounds louder than this start being very uncomfortable, causing audience complaints.) This yields a typical useable system dynamic range on the order of only 55-70 dB -- quite different than unit dynamic ranges."

IMO, nature, Foley, measurement, and other applications where it's possible for dynamic ranges exceeding the 120db range of human hearing to be recorded, 32bit should be able to make it easier, since you wouldn't have to actually experience the highest peaks and lowest signal down into the noise floor to set gain in actual application.

For those of us taping bands off the PA, 65db dynamic range is all we have to harness. 24 bit provides more than enough margin to capture that range and give the taper a wide sweet spot for level setting.

These machines are awesome, but within the subject of 24 bit recording, we've beaten the topic of 192khz sampling rate to death on this forum, and I haven't read any posts that credibly argue it's value for concert recording. The need for 24/96 is even questionable in that application, IMO.

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on August 30, 2019, 02:53:28 PM
If it's a quiet signal, then 4-8 bits should be plenty.

For recording concerts, I agree. But if your work is high end sound fx or sound design for instance, you may want to capture very low level sounds for other purposes.
One example off the top of my head - recording delicate droplets softly hitting a surface, followed by a super loud thunderclap. I decide I want to just take the raindrops and manipulate them as the basis for a new sound effect. In that case, I would want to amplify or normalize those raindrops first so I can easily hear them. The lack of bit resolution will become apparent at this point because each sample may only be represented by 4 bits (16 amplitude steps). 32-bit float alleviates this. Of course, you also need a wide dynamic range input stage to pull this off ... the MixPre-II's have a 142dB dynamic range with Mic EIN of -130dBV.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on August 30, 2019, 04:39:40 PM
One example off the top of my head - recording delicate droplets softly hitting a surface, followed by a super loud thunderclap. I decide I want to just take the raindrops and manipulate them as the basis for a new sound effect. In that case, I would want to amplify or normalize those raindrops first so I can easily hear them. The lack of bit resolution will become apparent at this point because each sample may only be represented by 4 bits (16 amplitude steps). 32-bit float alleviates this. Of course, you also need a wide dynamic range input stage to pull this off ... the MixPre-II's have a 142dB dynamic range with Mic EIN of -130dBV.

That's a good example, and something which I was doing myself a month or so back.  Trying to guess levels made me realize just how great a dynamic range my (now vintage) mixpre & low-noise mics could capture.  While waiting in the 45dBSPL night time rural ambience for an overhead thunderclap (with the mixpre gain set to clip at 130dBSPL) I mused that even at this low gain,  if the world went suddenly silent, the zero bit of the 24 bit convertor would still be rattling away about 25dB below the noise floor of my (quiet) microphones!

A very satisfying thought. 

Of course, it was imperative that I set the gain correctly for this once-in-a-lifetime direct overhead strike (which didn't happen)  And  it's the freedom to not worry at all about the gain setting which is the real benefit of the 32bit FP system. You just slide the output window around to wherever you need it!

As for signal resolution when amplified in post production, the world is simply too noisy. Even in my hypothetically silent world, If the zero bit is already 4 bits (24dB)  below the noise floor, adding more bits doesn't help.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on August 30, 2019, 06:59:38 PM
One example off the top of my head - recording delicate droplets softly hitting a surface, followed by a super loud thunderclap. I decide I want to just take the raindrops and manipulate them as the basis for a new sound effect. In that case, I would want to amplify or normalize those raindrops first so I can easily hear them. The lack of bit resolution will become apparent at this point because each sample may only be represented by 4 bits (16 amplitude steps). 32-bit float alleviates this.

Please explain the part I've bolded, which is what is in question here. It's the same 4 bits of information either way. The number of bits required to losslessly sample and reproduce that sound is determined solely by the dynamic range of the sound in question per Nyquist-Shannon.  What is different is how those 4 bits are represented in the different mathematical formats.  Yes the size of a 32bit floating point container is astronomically larger than a 24bit fixed container, which allows for shifting the bits of interest up or down in range to a but the 4 bits within that container that completely capture the very limited dynamics of the quiet sound in question are the identical.  Again, per Nyquist-Shannon, the basis of all digital audio.

Quote
Of course, you also need a wide dynamic range input stage to pull this off ... the MixPre-II's have a 142dB dynamic range with Mic EIN of -130dBV.
 
Yes exactly. It's the analog stage and ADC which are the constraints on dynamic range, not the storage file format.

Thanks for joining in the discussion here Paul, your presence is very much appreciated.. and SD gear is highly regarded for good reason. I just want to make sure we are rooted in reality and not chasing unicorns.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on August 30, 2019, 11:51:44 PM
For me, the benefit of this upgrade would to be able to stop guessing. Just set the levels hot in 32bit and truly finally forget it. Who cares if the levels are in the red most of the show. You can just normalize later and it’s all good.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on August 31, 2019, 01:05:03 AM
iOS App Store just pushed me Wingman 4.0, compatible with the MixpreII series.


Also I note that the MixPre originals including the M models have been moved to the Discontinued Items page on the SD website.
https://www.sounddevices.com/discontinued-products/
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on August 31, 2019, 02:15:24 AM
Also I note that the MixPre originals including the M models have been moved to the Discontinued Items page on the SD website.
https://www.sounddevices.com/discontinued-products/
Interesting. I was about to purchase the original MixPre-6 and was even looking into the possibility of purchasing the 6M, but now will take a stab at the MixPre-6 II. So glad I waited for a short while.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on August 31, 2019, 02:19:34 AM
I thought about you and was going to ask. :)
Got to feel great that you waited!

Interesting. I was about to purchase the original MixPre-6 and was even looking into the possibility of purchasing the 6M, but now will take a stab at the MixPre-6 II. So glad I waited for a short while.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on August 31, 2019, 04:31:46 AM
I thought about you and was going to ask. :)
Got to feel great that you waited!
Oh -- thanks! So kind of you. I do count on the new MixPre-6 II to give our live broadcast experience a serious boost.
One thing which is still more of an unknown to me is the fact that the new MixPre II line apparently supports recording to flash memory. Does it mean that we can simultaneously record to both a memory card and a flash memory? Or which USB slot does the new flash memory support occupy? Maybe I'm totally wrong regarding all of this. :)
Thanks.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on August 31, 2019, 04:40:36 AM
With the copy function to USB thumb drive you can let the MixPre automatically copy the current project’s recorded files to it.
Or you could manually trigger the copy process of the current project’s recorded files to it.

I have not seen anything that hints of a parallel or dual record function.
So you can not add a USB Drive to it and automatically get a parallel second source recording of the main recording.
It is a simple file duplication feature from internal SD card to externally mounted USB memory stick.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on August 31, 2019, 05:12:35 AM
With the copy function to USB thumb drive you can let the MixPre automatically copy the current project’s recorded files to it.
Or you could manually trigger the copy process of the current project’s recorded files to it.

I have not seen anything that hints of a parallel or dual record function.
So you can not add a USB Drive to it and automatically get a parallel second source recording of the main recording.
It is a simple file duplication feature from internal SD card to externally mounted USB memory stick.
Thanks for the clarification. I got it.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on August 31, 2019, 09:59:08 AM
Although toy can use an iOS device connected with lightning to usb-a and record the stereo track onto the iOS while recording in the mixpre. Perhaps even the iso tracks but don’t take that for granted.
But you will lose the control surface function instead.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on August 31, 2019, 10:33:22 AM
Q about 32 bit float:

is recording 'over zero' and then shifting peaks down to 0dB in post, the functional equivalent of "shifing bits" with conventional 16-or 24 bit fixed point, where you just shift in 6 dB steps without altering/interpolating the actual data and creating distortion?

this would be an advantage i suppose - "distortionless normalization"
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on August 31, 2019, 01:31:29 PM
Q about 32 bit float:

is recording 'over zero' and then shifting peaks down to 0dB in post, the functional equivalent of "shifing bits" with conventional 16-or 24 bit fixed point, where you just shift in 6 dB steps without altering/interpolating the actual data and creating distortion?

this would be an advantage i suppose - "distortionless normalization"

It's not quite such a blunt tool as the adjustment steps are much finer. But, ultimately, any "quality" issues are related entirely to your DAW. 

Most DAWs carry out all internal opertion in 32bit float, anyway,  so the imported SD file should drop right in without any conversion. Then you can either do a "gain change" operation, changing the level by the desired amount, or use the master level sliders if they're available.

It's a nice feature, and gives peace of mind when you suddenly see the meters go " :banging head: ". The wall's no longer there!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on August 31, 2019, 01:57:13 PM
...But you will lose the control surface function instead.
Can you plug into a USB hub that allows both to function simultaneously?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 01, 2019, 01:13:50 AM
In an earlier post you asked about channel linking and I told you you could only link 1-2 and 3-4.
But I was wrong.

You can actually link four channels, 1-4.
If System itself is set to Advanced or set to Custom and Channel is set to Advance.
Then you can push Channel 1 knob, Tap page 2 and Tap Linking and there select 1-3 or 1-4.

I totally missed that myself.



Thanks for the clarification. I got it.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on September 01, 2019, 01:19:39 AM
In an earlier post you asked about channel linking and I told you you could only link 1-2 and 3-4.
But I was wrong.

You can actually link four channels, 1-4.
If System itself is set to Advanced or set to Custom and Channel is set to Advance.
Then you can push Channel 1 knob, Tap page 2 and Tap Linking and there select 1-3 or 1-4.

I totally missed that myself.
Wow, fantastic! So I can link 3 channels connected to 3 mics and then mix them with channel 4 which is dedicated to the music coming from my laptop. Very impressive for such a small device, and quite useful with a device which is known to most people as a recorder.
Thanks for looking into that on my behalf.

Best,
Amir
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on September 01, 2019, 01:31:32 AM
BTW only Korg NanoKontrol 2 Interface and Korg NanoKontrol Studio Interface are available here from the list of MixPre's supported controller list. Are they tactile and feature-rich enough for use with the MixPre-6 II? The latter is more expensive, but which one do you recommend?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: borjam on September 01, 2019, 05:51:18 AM
What I remain to be convinced of is that 32bit floating point somehow improves "resolution" of low level signals through the A>D conversion.  This claim seems to contradict Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem.
Not at all. There are two different variables affecting audio sampling.

1) Sampling frequency: Nyquist-Shannon deal with it. The sampling frequency limits the bandwidth of the audio signal we can sample and reconstruct failthfully. In the simlpe case(*), the maximum audio frequency we can represent.

Note that Nyquist-Shannon don't deal with the number of bits of the sampling. Actually what they say can be applied to an ideal, analog sampling system in which you are not quantizying the signal to a distrete number.

2) Resulution. That's the number of bits. It doesn't affect the signal bandwidth, but it's signal to noise ratio. When you have a poor resolution, your reconstructed signal will have "steps" which means a kind of noise will appear: quantization noise.

So, both analog and digital systems have a noise floor. In the case of digital systems that noise floor (ignoring of course the noise inherent to the analog stages like microphone, preamp, A/D converter, etc) is determined by the number of bits you are sampling.

The reason why you don't want to record with a level too low in a digital system is that. Low sounds will have a much better S/N ratio than the very quiet ones.

So, increasing the number of bits is beneficial because it will increase the S/N ratio. But it won´t affect the frequency response.

Using 32 bit floating point doesn't mean that you will get the full dynamic range of a 32 bit floating point number, of course, but it means that internal calculations won't overload the container (the simplest case would be making a stereo mix of the input channels while you are recording) and that in case you have a special A/D converter arrangement (like dual A/D converters or a higher precision A/D converter with a 32 bit sample format) you can effectively obtain a larger resolution and you can store it without the limitations of a 24 bit sample.

I hope it's more clear.  ;)

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DSatz on September 01, 2019, 03:45:53 PM
borjam, you did a nice job of clarifying the issues, separating frequency response (as a function of sampling rate) vs. dynamic range (as a function of word length / bit depth). Many people confuse these two issues and/or lump them together as "resolution"--a term which is perfect for misuse, since it sounds as if it must mean something definite, but has no agreed-upon meaning in fact.

I have two notes which aren't disagreements, but I hope clarifications of what you wrote. One is that in a properly dithered system there are no "stairsteps". That issue goes away totally, completely, 100%. It isn't relative to the strength of the signal, or the number of bits per sample; it "isn't merely really dead, [it]'s really most sincerely dead." Anyone who still thinks in terms of "more bits = smaller stairsteps" (e.g. 80% or more of "audiophile" opinion, still, after all these years) should find themselves a different concept, because that one has fallen and it can't get up. You are exactly right to equate bit depth/word length with the noise floor and nothing else.

The other thing is that there's some strange hand-waving going on in this thread about low-level signals needing to have the same s/n ratio as high-level signals. That makes no sense at all, as a few people have pointed out--but the hand-waving continues.

Any real-world noise floor shifts in level on a moment-to-moment basis. That's what noise is. But it's imperative that the shifts be random, and not correlated with the signal levels. Otherwise the noise tends to merge audibly with the signal, becoming a form of distortion known as modulation noise (or the phenomenon in general may be called "noise modulation" because the noise is being modulated by the signal). Whatever you call it, it doesn't sound good. It's sometimes called "granular noise" or described as "gritty" or "dirty" or "sandpapery" sounding, especially at the lowest signal levels, e.g. the way that the last moments of reverberant sound die down in an otherwise quiet hall.

(Somewhere I think I still have a Columbia CD of a piano concerto in which you can hear a "frying" sound each time a note decays into silence if you turn the volume up. Someone evidently didn't adjust the A/D converters in their PCM-1610 before the session, or maybe they left the dither switched off, or maybe both.)

We could talk about the issues of floating point representation near the noise floor, but I think that would leave a lot of audio-only people out. Summary is that it's not worth arguing about--as long as you don't inadvertently create modulation of the noise floor by the desired signal.

But given the marketing-type claims that I've seen so far, it's not clear to me whether this principle is being observed or not. If it is, I wouldn't expect to see anyone touting the advantages of potentially having more bits in the mantissa (the magnitude portion of the floating point representation) at and around the level of the noise floor, because that just doesn't matter; the roundoff error is below audible significance in relation to that noise floor, and rescaling the exponent just to get more bits into the mantissa in such cases is an illusory pursuit at best.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: borjam on September 01, 2019, 05:14:10 PM
I have two notes which aren't disagreements, but I hope clarifications of what you wrote. One is that in a properly dithered system there are no "stairsteps". That issue goes away totally, completely, 100%. It isn't relative to the strength of the signal, or the number of bits per sample; it "isn't merely really dead, [it]'s really most sincerely dead." Anyone who still thinks in terms of "more bits = smaller stairsteps" (e.g. 80% or more of "audiophile" opinion, still, after all these years) should find themselves a different concept, because that one has fallen and it can't get up. You are exactly right to equate bit depth/word length with the noise floor and nothing else.
I used the stairsteps as a simplification. I think it's easier to imagine than a mysterious sort of correlated noise somewhat following the recorded signal. Of course dithering will eliminate the "stairsteps" but still dithering is noise, so one way or another you signal to noise is lower. I know, dithering is much less noticeable than plain quantization noise especially if you apply clever tricks like shaping it so that most of its energy falls on the regions of the spectrum for which our hearing is less sensitive.

Quote
The other thing is that there's some strange hand-waving going on in this thread about low-level signals needing to have the same s/n ratio as high-level signals. That makes no sense at all, as a few people have pointed out--but the hand-waving continues.
Well, when recording it's useful to have a lot of headroom so that unexpected transients won't ruin your day. We use to record on 24 bit formats because of that. With more resolution available to the low level signals you have more freedom.

Quote
Any real-world noise floor shifts in level on a moment-to-moment basis. That's what noise is. But it's imperative that the shifts be random, and not correlated with the signal levels. Otherwise the noise tends to merge audibly with the signal, becoming a form of distortion known as modulation noise (or the phenomenon in general may be called "noise modulation" because the noise is being modulated by the signal). Whatever you call it, it doesn't sound good. It's sometimes called "granular noise" or described as "gritty" or "dirty" or "sandpapery" sounding, especially at the lowest signal levels, e.g. the way that the last moments of reverberant sound die down in an otherwise quiet hall.
I own a CD player that can play SACD recordings. The only difference I *think* I noticed in a dual format recording was, the reverb tail was much clearer, much more pleasant and more natural. For example, in this recording.
https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Requiem-Mozarts-Original-Manuscript/dp/B00022UO9I

Of course you can only notice that if you are in a very well conditioned and quiet room, or listening on headphones. Still, it sounds beautiful and I imagine that the extra bit depth helps.

Quote
(Somewhere I think I still have a Columbia CD of a piano concerto in which you can hear a "frying" sound each time a note decays into silence if you turn the volume up. Someone evidently didn't adjust the A/D converters in their PCM-1610 before the session, or maybe they left the dither switched off, or maybe both.)
That's a valuable example then! It's often difficult to find goofs in order to ilustrate some of these phenomena :)

Quote
We could talk about the issues of floating point representation near the noise floor, but I think that would leave a lot of audio-only people out. Summary is that it's not worth arguing about--as long as you don't inadvertently create modulation of the noise floor by the desired signal.

But given the marketing-type claims that I've seen so far, it's not clear to me whether this principle is being observed or not. If it is, I wouldn't expect to see anyone touting the advantages of potentially having more bits in the mantissa (the magnitude portion of the floating point representation) at and around the level of the noise floor, because that just doesn't matter; the roundoff error is below audible significance in relation to that noise floor, and rescaling the exponent just to get more bits into the mantissa in such cases is an illusory pursuit at best.
Well, modern analog electronics can be really quiet. Moreover very quiet equipment has become really affordable. If you happen to record at a very low level and you raise the volume in postproduction that extra resolution should help.

High sample rates? I never saw the point (although some old A/D converters had poor filters and having the filter cut off frequency far from our hearing limit was beneficial) except of course for sound design where the recording can be reproduced at a much lower sample rate.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 02, 2019, 02:21:47 PM
As the first generation MixPres are having a lot of buffer error when writing to many SD cards - I really hope SD could step up a bit and actually publish a true and verified list of confirmed cards working at highest rates and all channels and not put all burden on us buyers on an individual basis to invest in cards and do trial and error tests on our own.

I took as peek at their Approved Media which still only list 1 (one) card - their own which we have seen failing as well.
Nor have they updated their Audio Calculator for 32-bit fp.
https://www.sounddevices.com/mixpre-series-approved-media-list/

As the data rate for 32-bit FP will be some 30-ish percent higher than todays 24-bit fixed in the first gen recorders, the buffer errors and card problems might still be present in the II-series.
Unless they do have change their memory card management but then I really wish SD told us about it.
And also released a firmware upgrade for us with the first gen MixPres.


I'm a bit annoyed - SoundDevices are no slouch in the pro audio business but when it comes to memory card support and their listing of a single card when other competing manufacturers manage to list hundred of cards. I do feel they just don't care when they give us answers like this:



we’ve preemptively given customers the ability to choose with the guidance on what to look for in an SD card. Our approved media list has cards that we’ve tested in-house with our products. The SAM32 SD is the only one on the list as we’ve ensured that the card has been thoroughly tested. It has been optimized to work with the MixPre Series.

If they only manage to come up with ONE card that also needed to be optimised to work with the MixPre Series, they really should consider if they do need to change the approach.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: goodcooker on September 02, 2019, 03:03:43 PM

not put all burden on us buyers on an individual basis to invest in cards and do trial and error tests on our own.

Many manufacturers of recorders have been guilty of this. Never thought someone like Sound Devices would let this be the case when their reputation is so highly regarded. They need to test some cards and get a list together.

I expect this kind of behavior out of some other manufacturers but not SD.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: EmRR on September 02, 2019, 03:26:20 PM
Elsewhere, I've reported there are ways to overdrive the input circuitry of an F8n without hitting digital zero, in fact with line input trim set to -10, it squarewaves at about -5.5dBFS.

I don't know about the SD units.  A meaningful spec would be one that relates analog input headroom to 0dBFS, so one knows when 0dBFS is accidentally touched, how much headroom exists beyond it.  Theoretical 32 bit Float headroom is meaningless if the front end is clipped. 
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on September 02, 2019, 11:42:28 PM
MixPre-II: maximum microphone input level before clipping is +12dBV.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 03, 2019, 12:38:48 AM
specs on site say +14 dB on mic and +28 dB on line

Mic XLR: +14dBu (limiters on or off)
Line XLR: +28dBu (limiters on or off)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on September 03, 2019, 01:40:51 AM
dBu is not dBV!


Thanks for the facts, Paul!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on September 03, 2019, 05:40:19 AM
MixPre-II: maximum microphone input level before clipping is +12dBV.

Can someone explain this like I’m 5?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 03, 2019, 09:49:01 AM
dBu is not dBV!


Thanks for the facts, Paul!
oops I missed that.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: pohaku on September 04, 2019, 11:47:27 AM
Pricing of the new line is interesting.  The list price of the 3 is the same, but the 6 is $50 lower and the base 10 looks to be quite a bit lower than the first iteration 10t and a little less expensive than the 10m (but you can buy the musician add on if you want that functionality).

Of course all the first generation units are now on sale.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on September 04, 2019, 11:50:43 AM
Pricing of the new line is interesting.  The list price of the 3 is the same, but the 6 is $50 lower and the base 10 looks to be quite a bit lower than the first iteration 10t and a little less expensive than the 10m (but you can buy the musician add on if you want that functionality).

Of course all the first generation units are now on sale.
And considering the fact that the 2nd-gen MixPre recorders come with the badly needed AC adapter, it indicates that SoundDevices really wants to be competitive.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on September 04, 2019, 12:49:36 PM
Pricing of the new line is interesting.  The list price of the 3 is the same, but the 6 is $50 lower and the base 10 looks to be quite a bit lower than the first iteration 10t and a little less expensive than the 10m (but you can buy the musician add on if you want that functionality).

Of course all the first generation units are now on sale.
And considering the fact that the 2nd-gen MixPre recorders come with the badly needed AC adapter, it indicates that SoundDevices really wants to be competitive.

badly needed? a usb-c to AC power adaptor can be had for $20....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 04, 2019, 01:42:23 PM
Just got a shipping notice from B&H on the mixpre-6 II, supposed to arrive tomorrow.

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on September 04, 2019, 04:46:05 PM
dBu and dBV measurements
-----------------------------------

Can someone explain this like I’m 5?

It can get a bit confusing when some measurements are quoted in dBu & some in dBV, but that's life! However, it's simple to convert between them.

dB in any measurement is always a ratio between two values, and so one of these needs to be your reference point:

dBV is referenced to 1.0 Volts
dBu is referenced to 0.775 Volts

When you have 2 signals, a & b,    the difference in dB  = 20*log(a/b)

So to convert a measurement in dBV to dBu, just add 2.21dB.

Paul quoted the MixPre's max mic input level  as 12dBV.
Just add 2.21dB to get to Jerryfreak's "official"  spec of 14dBu (more or less - don't lose sleep over fractions of a dB!)

This works out to be 3.88V.   (BTW, original & MkII are identical spec here)

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on September 04, 2019, 05:21:38 PM
dBu and dBV measurements
-----------------------------------

Can someone explain this like I’m 5?

It can get a bit confusing when some measurements are quoted in dBu & some in dBV, but that's life! However, it's simple to convert between them.

dB in any measurement is always a ratio between two values, and so one of these needs to be your reference point:

dBV is referenced to 1.0 Volts
dBu is referenced to 0.775 Volts

When you have 2 signals, a & b,    the difference in dB  = 20*log(a/b)

So to convert a measurement in dBV to dBu, just add 2.21dB.

Paul quoted the MixPre's max mic input level  as 12dBV.
Just add 2.21dB to get to Jerryfreak's "official"  spec of 14dBu (more or less - don't lose sleep over fractions of a dB!)

This works out to be 3.88V.   (BTW, original & MkII are identical spec here)

Thanks. How does this relate to our use?

Appreciate it.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 04, 2019, 05:33:39 PM
Of course dithering will eliminate the "stairsteps" but still dithering is noise, so one way or another you signal to noise is lower.

The point of contention regards what occurs within the well established dynamic range limitations of any digital storage format.  It is not about the change in dynamic range storage capability (No one is contending dynamic range storage capacity is not dramatically increased with 32 bit floating point representation), nor is it about the vastly more restrictive real-world dynamic range limitations imposed by the recording environment, the limitations of the microphones, the analog stages through which the signal passes prior to digitization, and the digitization process itself, but rather the "resolution" with which a signal is represented within the well established dynamic range limits of a particular file recording format.  ..and indeed if "resolution" actually has any agreed upon meaning at all in that context.

This sums it up:
Quote from: DSatz
[snip]..equate bit depth/word length with the noise floor and nothing else.
[and]
The other thing is that there's some strange hand-waving going on in this thread about low-level signals needing to have the same s/n ratio as high-level signals. That makes no sense at all, as a few people have pointed out--but the hand-waving continues.

Quote from: borjam
Well, when recording it's useful to have a lot of headroom so that unexpected transients won't ruin your day. We use to record on 24 bit formats because of that. With more resolution available to the low level signals you have more freedom.

An "unexpected transient which might otherwise ruin your day" is high-level signal by definition, one which would have otherwise resulted in clipping or otherwise unacceptable levels of harmonic distortion.  A low-level transient does not require an extreme dynamic range to capture it completely, like any other it only requires enough dynamic range to contain the peak level of the transient.  We need enough headroom to capture high-level transients, but that's essentially a different discussion which concerns what happens at the "other end" of the dynamic range spectrum.

Quote
If you happen to record at a very low level and you raise the volume in postproduction that extra resolution should help.
^
What extra resolution?  This is the recurring claim which no one has been able to back up.  Please explain or point us to a technical explanation for this.. other than a gut-feeling "that's how it seems like it should work", which seems to be the only basis for the claim thus far.

No animosity intended by the way, I'm only trying to get to the bottom of what seems to me to be a strawman argument supporting this rather bold claim.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on September 04, 2019, 06:40:17 PM
Re. explanation of clipping levels for the Mixpre mic inputs:
 
Thanks. How does this relate to our use?

You might need to know whether your recorder input will clip at a loud show.

But first, you need to know the sensitivity spec of your mic.  Sensitivities are always quoted at a level of 94dB SPL, (equivalent to air pressure of 1Pascal)  Most SDCs have sensitivities  between -30 & -40dBV.
Say you were using  Schoeps MK4, with a sensitivity of   -36.5dBV.
You plug it into a Mixpre with a max input level of +12dBV
-36.5 - 12 =  -48.5dB difference between the mic output at 94dBSPL and the output when it clips the mic pre.
So the input clips at 48.5+94 = 142.5dB SPL which is louder than a close-miked drumkit, and also much higher than the rated spec of the microphone (so the mic signal will be very distorted at this point)!

Although I've veered off topic a bit with these calculations, what they show is that the Mixpres (new & old)  have a impressively wide input range. +12dBV at one end, and the noise floor of -130dBV at the other = 142dB dynamic range. And that's back to pretty much where this thread is at.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DATBRAD on September 04, 2019, 08:17:09 PM
So, I've reversed my position on 32 bit in the field, after reading some 9 year old Pro Tools materials. I now see in practice 32 bit can allow you to set super conservative levels that are adjusted up in post just like 24 bit, but unlike 24 bit, you can fly closer too the Sun, so to speak. Imagine setting ideal levels at the show, based on average signal without concern for unexpected peaks. The preamps won't overload if analog limited engage, and you can't go "over" on the recording, just the display. I'd much rather err on the side of being a little too hot and having to dial it back in post, instead of boosting a weak level recording. Could be all in my head, but it just seems right.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on September 05, 2019, 12:33:58 AM
badly needed? a usb-c to AC power adaptor can be had for $20....
I'd rather stick to the manufacturers' recommended AC adapter products so as not to risk damaging my purchased electronic goods. SD's own adapter definitely provides a lot more peace of mind.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: AB52 on September 05, 2019, 01:53:33 AM
I record thunder sometimes - it seems like 32 bit would be idea.  A lot of times - my levels cannot get it right and I end up with distortion (i.e. the storm is at such a low level versus a great thunder that would have been worth recording correctly).
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on September 05, 2019, 05:54:11 AM

Quote
If you happen to record at a very low level and you raise the volume in postproduction that extra resolution should help.
^
What extra resolution?  This is the recurring claim which no one has been able to back up.  Please explain or point us to a technical explanation for this.. other than a gut-feeling "that's how it seems like it should work", which seems to be the only basis for the claim thus far.

No animosity intended by the way, I'm only trying to get to the bottom of what seems to me to be a strawman argument supporting this rather bold claim.

Barring a more detailed technical explanation, I suppose the only way to really know is that someone who gets their hands on one of these units is going to have to run parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recordings at very low level, normalize, A/B them, null test, etc.  I don't see simultaneous 24-fixed and 32-float recording as an option in the MixPre II manual, but it is an option on the (still not released) Zoom F6.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 05, 2019, 06:18:01 AM
re: dBU vs dBV question from yesterday, this has always been a handy page for me

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on September 05, 2019, 06:38:46 AM
Quote
If you happen to record at a very low level and you raise the volume in postproduction that extra resolution should help.
^
What extra resolution?  This is the recurring claim which no one has been able to back up.  Please explain or point us to a technical explanation for this.. other than a gut-feeling "that's how it seems like it should work", which seems to be the only basis for the claim thus far.

I think part of the issue here is the failure to grasp how the omnipresent noise impinges on the desired signal. 

There seems to be a common misconception  that the noise floor in a system is something "down there" which the signal needs to climb above if it's to be heard and, once that's happened, it is magically noise-free with the potential for infinite resolution (limited only by the convertors). This is simply not the case. The noise, whether we like it or not,  floats on our signal, effectively adding a random value to each sample and inherently limiting its resolution.

Here's a simple comparison between two digital systems. It assumes that the convertors and electronics are  "perfect" & is very much a first-order approximation. It doesn't take into account the dithering & resolution enhancing effect of noise, nor all manner of psycho-acoustic phenomena, etc. It's just a relative comparison. (Disclaimer!)

Say we're recording an orchestral concert and set our mic gain so the recorder clips at 120dB SPL.
We're in a *very* quiet hall, everyone holds their breath, and the background noise is only 24dB SPL. (if only...)
Then the music begins with a single quiet note, which peaks at 54dB SPL.

That note has a dynamic range of 30dB.   As the reverb dies away, those of us present hear the sound smoothly decay into the background ambiant noise.

24 bit recording
The 24 bit convertor has a dynamic range of 144dB.  We've set 0dB (clipping) to occur at a sound pressure level of 120dB SPL, so the background noise  at 24dB SPL is 96dB down from clipping, & occupies the bottom 8 bits of our digitized signal .
Our Convertor samples the note, capturing the peak at the 13 bit level . The "gut feeling" is that, the peak of the captured waveform will smoothly follow the instrumental sound in small increments of 1/8192 (13 bit resolution) of the peak value.   

But we've forgotten about the noise!  The bottom 8 bits of the convertor are jumping about randomly, with the effect that they add a random value to each  sampled point.  We can't be sure exactly where the wanted signal is, as the bottom 8 bits are meaningless. The peak of the musical note is only 30dB above the noise, so we have only a 30dB dynamic range. (Resolution approx 5 bits). But it won't sound "granular" or look like a staircase  on the screen. If we zoom out our display we'll just see noise superimposed on our waveform; which is exactly what we hear when sitting in the hall.

32 bit recording
So what if we're also recording  with a (hypothetical) 32 bit convertor?  The sound levels are obviously the same, and again we set our clipping level to be 120dB SPL.

Now our convertor has a dynamic range of 192dB. The extended low level resolution means that the noise now occupies the bottom 16 bits of our digitized signal, with the first musical note peaking at the 21 bit level.  Wow! we think, "the resolution  is now 1 part in 2.097 million!"

But it isn't. Again, we've forgotten  the noise! Now the bottom 16 bits are meaningless in terms of resolution as they're simply noise. The signal peaks at 54dB SPL, the noise is at 24dB SPL, the dynamic range is 30dB. 

Nothing we can do in the digital domain will increase the resolution of our wanted signal.  In order to achieve this, we have to reduce the noise level at the recorder inputs. All we can do is to place the mic closer to the instruments, switch off the a/c, record at night,etc.

It's a pity that the conversation has gone down this particular rabbit hole, as the upgraded MixPres potentially have a lot more to offer.   As a few people have already mentioned, the dual convertor topology should allow us to record low level signals using maximum gain from the low-noise preamps, whilst also allowing capture of high level transient peaks up to the clipping level of the input. Effectively that allows us to utilize the full dynamic range of the analog front end, and not worry about clipping. Ever.  And that can only be a "good thing".


Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: mjwin on September 05, 2019, 07:04:17 AM
I record thunder sometimes - it seems like 32 bit would be idea.  A lot of times - my levels cannot get it right and I end up with distortion (i.e. the storm is at such a low level versus a great thunder that would have been worth recording correctly).

Paul used the thunderstorm example a few pages back, and I then commented on how I do mental calculations to ensure that I capture the full dynamic range without compromising resolution.

But this is exactly the situation where the freedom from potential clipping would be of practical benefit.  You simply don't need to worry about the levels. Just setting up your mics out of the rain, not being in a vulnerable spot, etc. is plenty to think about in the heat of the moment.

There are parallels with photography here. I remember using color transparency film and needing to be very careful to meter for the highlights so that they didn't crush to white. The dynamic range of transparency film (& early digital) was quite low & if you weren't careful you'd end up with everything washed out, or no shadow detail at all. Modern cameras can achieve fantastic results with just point & shoot - allowing you to concentrate on the composition, timing & other artistic elements.  Just like sound recording.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 05, 2019, 08:04:03 AM
There's 24-bit and 32-bit fixed point value.
Those not the same as 32-bit floating point value which is what SD and Zoom is using in their recorders although Sound Devices uses 3 parallel preamp/ADC stages with low/mid/high gain which can be combined into a 2 stage output if needed. Exactly how Zoom have implemented their solution we will need to wait for.

While 32 bit fixed point offers a better resolution than 24 bit fixed, both will suffer from a reduction of resolution bits the lower the signal gets.
A 32-bit floating point value basically contains of a 24-bit value (mantissa) which always retains its precision by floating the decimal and 8 bit exponent which defines the signal level of it.

It appears as if SD is reaching the need dynamic range with their use of three parallel stage input feeding the 32-bit FP signal processor.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on September 06, 2019, 12:14:48 PM
Hi all,

Would it be possible for you to send the following to SoundDevices' Tech Support team on my behalf? Since I don't have the MixPre-6 II at the moment, I can't send it without a serial number via their support contact form. My request is related to implementing an accessibility feature for the visually impaired via a future firmware update.
............
Dear SoundDevices tech support representative,

Hope this finds you well.

My issue is that the MixPre-6 II doesn't provide audio messages, via headphones, to assist the visually impaired with the operation of the device. As such, making changes to its menus and settings is quite tricky and challenging for those who have little or no vision.
When a USB keyboard or a controler is connected to the MixPre-6 II, it would be quite useful to hear audio prompts, via headphones, upon pressing keys and keyboard shortcuts. Otherwise -- and as a visually impaired person, I can't comfortably utilize such a capable and robust device. In short, I want audio and speech prompts, possibly via a future firmware update, which -- if enabled -- would allow me to alter most or all of the device's settings via my USB keyboard or -- if applicable -- via a controler, independently.

Hope SoundDevices can implement this suggestion which would be a tremendous boon to the visually impaired.

All the best
............
Thanks beforehand for your assistance.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 06, 2019, 12:34:34 PM
I sent your excellent request to the SD support.
And also included a link to your post.

I’ll post their reply.

Hi all,

Would it be possible for you to send the following to SoundDevices' Tech Support team on my behalf? Since I don't have the MixPre-6 II at the moment, I can't send it without a serial number via their support contact form. My request is related to implementing an accessibility feature for the visually impaired via a future firmware 
............
Thanks beforehand for your assistance.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on September 06, 2019, 12:41:41 PM
I sent your excellent request to the SD support.
And also included a link to your post.

I’ll post their reply.
Thanks for your prompt and considerate action!
Looking forward to their reply.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 06, 2019, 02:40:37 PM
SD support just got back to me.
Here's their initial response. If I get any follow ups I'll post them to.

Thank you for contacting Sound Devices. I will certainly pass this feedback along to our engineering team for evaluation, though I cannot promise if or when these features would be added.

Thanks,
Daniel
Sound Devices, LLC


Thanks for your prompt and considerate action!
Looking forward to their reply.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on September 06, 2019, 02:42:44 PM
SD support just got back to me.
Here's their initial response. If I get any follow ups I'll post them to.

Thank you for contacting Sound Devices. I will certainly pass this feedback along to our engineering team for evaluation, though I cannot promise if or when these features would be added.

Thanks,
Daniel
Sound Devices, LLC

Thanks. At least it's good to know that my request, courtesy of your action, has reached them. Let's see what they might cook in the future.

Best,
Amir
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on September 06, 2019, 06:00:08 PM
I accidentally posted this to the other MixPre thread.  It's more appropriate here:


Here are two good discussion threads on JWSound you might all be interested in.  Paul is active on the first, and Jon Tatooles (also of SD) is active on the second:

https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/34175-the-new-mixpre-ii-are-here/& (https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/34175-the-new-mixpre-ii-are-here/&)
https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/34174-floating-point-v-fixed-point-wav-files/& (https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/34174-floating-point-v-fixed-point-wav-files/&)


In the second thread above, Jon linked a page on the SD site where we can now hear some music recorded in 32-bit float on the MixPre 10 II, at 3 vastly different levels:
https://www.sounddevices.com/noise-in-32-bit-float/ (https://www.sounddevices.com/noise-in-32-bit-float/)


Paul, if you are reading this, I request that you please do same with some very dynamic piano music.  I know that is right in your wheelhouse.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: willndmb on September 06, 2019, 08:39:36 PM
Hi all,

Would it be possible for you to send the following to SoundDevices' Tech Support team on my behalf? Since I don't have the MixPre-6 II at the moment, I can't send it without a serial number via their support contact form. My request is related to implementing an accessibility feature for the visually impaired via a future firmware update.
............
Dear SoundDevices tech support representative,

Hope this finds you well.

My issue is that the MixPre-6 II doesn't provide audio messages, via headphones, to assist the visually impaired with the operation of the device. As such, making changes to its menus and settings is quite tricky and challenging for those who have little or no vision.
When a USB keyboard or a controler is connected to the MixPre-6 II, it would be quite useful to hear audio prompts, via headphones, upon pressing keys and keyboard shortcuts. Otherwise -- and as a visually impaired person, I can't comfortably utilize such a capable and robust device. In short, I want audio and speech prompts, possibly via a future firmware update, which -- if enabled -- would allow me to alter most or all of the device's settings via my USB keyboard or -- if applicable -- via a controler, independently.

Hope SoundDevices can implement this suggestion which would be a tremendous boon to the visually impaired.

All the best
............
Thanks beforehand for your assistance.
great question/request!
Do you have a device now that does prompts like this?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on September 06, 2019, 10:01:09 PM

Quote
If you happen to record at a very low level and you raise the volume in postproduction that extra resolution should help.
^
What extra resolution?  This is the recurring claim which no one has been able to back up.  Please explain or point us to a technical explanation for this.. other than a gut-feeling "that's how it seems like it should work", which seems to be the only basis for the claim thus far.

No animosity intended by the way, I'm only trying to get to the bottom of what seems to me to be a strawman argument supporting this rather bold claim.

Barring a more detailed technical explanation, I suppose the only way to really know is that someone who gets their hands on one of these units is going to have to run parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recordings at very low level, normalize, A/B them, null test, etc.  I don't see simultaneous 24-fixed and 32-float recording as an option in the MixPre II manual, but it is an option on the (still not released) Zoom F6.

i think you would see the difference at the opposite.

run the 24 bit peaking around -6 and then the 32 bit rarely going beneath -6.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 06, 2019, 10:17:36 PM
it does not record directly to flash drives, but can back files up to them after the fact
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Amir on September 06, 2019, 10:58:37 PM
great question/request!
Do you have a device now that does prompts like this?
Thanks. Not that I use it much as its preamps are quite noisy and I don't like the way it performs some tasks, but my Olympus LS-100 has a feature which, when enabled, will read menu names, settings and the status of altered items back to me as I navigate around them. It also reads battery prompts and some, if not all, system messages. Of course, its recording-related prompts are delivered via beeps. Looking at what Olympus did in the past, this seems to be fairly simple in that audio prompts can be recorded and chained to menu names/settings. It's also worth mentioning that some of the newer Olympus recorders also have such a feature for the visually impaired, but the LS-100 was their best recorder which was equipped with it. Hope SoundDevices can follow suit as its MixPre devices are both more complicated and far more professional.

Best,
Amir
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 07, 2019, 07:43:17 PM
currently out of 13 cards tested only 2 have sustained writes from front to back without errors at mixpre6 (v1) maximum bitrate of 4.5 MB/sec

I hope SD takes this issue seriously or its gonna be a lot of bad press when mixpre6-II and 10-IIs bump up their bitrate with 32 bit

currently the only card they can endorse gives 80 minutes at max channels/bitrate on a mixpre-6 II and 55 minutes on a mixpre-10 II.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 07, 2019, 08:23:27 PM
currently out of 13 cards tested only 2 have sustained writes from front to back without errors at mixpre6 (v1) maximum bitrate of 4.5 MB/sec

I hope SD takes this issue seriously or its gonna be a lot of bad press when mixpre6-II and 10-IIs bump up their bitrate with 32 bit

currently the only card they can endorse gives 80 minutes at max channels/bitrate on a mixpre-6 II and 55 minutes on a mixpre-10 II.

Though in general I have had an easier time with Zoom recorders on powering and card use than with the SD633, the manual for the upcoming Zoom F6 (also 6 ISO tracks plus L/R mix) notes:

192 kHz cannot be selected when the recording mode is Float (32bit) and the LR track is on.
When 192 kHz is selected, Dual (16+32bit) and Dual (24+32bit) cannot be set.

And the F8n also has the following:

When 192 kHz is selected, L/R tracks will not be recorded. The Input Delay and Output Delay are also disabled. Moreover, Auto Mix, Ambisonic Mode, and Input Limiter > On/Off > On (Advanced) cannot be set.

So maybe Sound Devices has to convert this from a bug to a feature.

I am currently testing my MixPre-6 II at 32 bit float, 6 tracks + L/R at 96kHz, which is all I will ever use.

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 07, 2019, 09:00:35 PM
I am currently testing my MixPre-6 II at 32 bit float, 6 tracks + L/R at 96kHz, which is all I will ever use.

Jeff

can you take one for the team and test your card at 192k/8 channel and report to that thread?

thanks
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 07, 2019, 09:12:59 PM
I am currently testing my MixPre-6 II at 32 bit float, 6 tracks + L/R at 96kHz, which is all I will ever use.

Jeff

can you take one for the team and test your card at 192k/8 channel and report to that thread?

thanks

When my current (2.5 hour) test - half a 64GB SD card mirrored to a 32GB flash drive - is done I'll run at 192k/6+2 for 2.5 hours to the 64GB card alone.  I should have a 128GB USB flash by Monday for longer tests.

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 07, 2019, 09:55:56 PM
Interesting discussion of MixPre II and 32 bit float on JWSound board.  Here is the SD patent:

patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/a7/6b/f5/77e31e68cca8b7/US9654134.pdf (http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/a7/6b/f5/77e31e68cca8b7/US9654134.pdf)

And here is an interesting take on SD/Zoom/Zaxcom (and maybe sonosax):

"As I understand the Zaxcom patent for two gain stage recording is that it they do it in a very rudimentary way. Pretty much do it at one level, then do it another level and depending on if one exceeds the other or not perform and switch between stages. 
 
"The SD solution is to perform at least two and in their implementation three gain stages and ADC in parallel. Use all three by themselves, merge into two or scrap one if corrupt. 

 
"And then do process their vectors to create a final stream in 32-bit float. 
 
"I really would like to see how Zoom is doing it in the F6. 
Or if the sudden manufacturing problem is somehow related to someones patent."

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 07, 2019, 10:02:41 PM
I am currently testing my MixPre-6 II at 32 bit float, 6 tracks + L/R at 96kHz, which is all I will ever use.

Jeff

can you take one for the team and test your card at 192k/8 channel and report to that thread?

thanks

When my current (2.5 hour) test - half a 64GB SD card mirrored to a 32GB flash drive - is done I'll run at 192k/6+2 for 2.5 hours to the 64GB card alone.  I should have a 128GB USB flash by Monday for longer tests.

Jeff

so it does mirror to flash in real time? thats news...

i can send you any of these cards ive tried to test in your unit, real easy SASE style


One point that might be relevant to your test is that the vast majority of my failures have been on the back half of the cards' capacity. most run 30-60% of card capacity then seem to crash at an ever-shortening interval
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 07, 2019, 11:19:43 PM

so it does mirror to flash in real time? thats news...



Not quite.  It copies as soon as a file is closed.  The MixPre-6 II starts new files every 4 GB, when one segment closes it is copied.  With 8 files at 96kHz this was every 23 minutes.  When I stopped recording that 96kHz test tonight, there were ~700MB left to copy over, so I had to keep the power on another few minutes until /Copying/ on the USB screen of the bottom status bar shut off.  Just luck that I didn't lose anything Friday and could do the file transfer to my computer from the USB flash (SD card access requires removing the L battery sled, which is a nuisance and probably a source of future repair bills).  I may end up doing the transfer from the SD card anyway, as I see some chatter on the net that a complete formatting in a computer, not a quick formatting, is better for card performance.  I have been doing this with Tascam DR-2d cards (used for 4 channel 96 kHz recording) at the instruction of Gutbucket, who has been my guru on this 4 channel gem.  It may only be a superstition, but it works so far for me.



 
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 08, 2019, 02:27:38 AM
I guess the easiest way to get a "real" live backup is to hook up an iOS device on the USB, map in iOS as ISO's plus mix or stereo pairs + mix and record the all channels @96KHz.
Not perfect but might save one from some card corruption anxiety. :)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 08, 2019, 03:17:47 AM
depending on your mix, a simple 2-track out to any of the handhelds like a sony A10 would save your ass if recording stops due to buffer

thats if you were doing multiple stereo pairs like most tapers, a little less useful if you are doing isolated instruments unless you want to put in the time to do a decent mix on the fly

8 tracks usb out to a small laptop could be a backup but thats cumbersome and the opposite direction we should be working imo
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on September 08, 2019, 07:59:54 AM

"I really would like to see how Zoom is doing it in the F6. 
Or if the sudden manufacturing problem is somehow related to someones patent."


I caught that bit, too.  In their news release, Zoom is citing "a mechanical component that needed modification to assure consistent, overall durability."  Everyone assumes that it is the battery door / compartment, and that they are recalling all units to modify them in addition to the new production.  Zoom is now claiming Fall / Winter of this year as the projected release date.  We'll see.  The theory about a patent issue is interesting, but if that were true, I would expect Zoom to have to pull the unit entirely for a full redesign.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: kindms on September 08, 2019, 08:39:21 AM
depending on your mix, a simple 2-track out to any of the handhelds like a sony A10 would save your ass if recording stops due to buffer

thats if you were doing multiple stereo pairs like most tapers, a little less useful if you are doing isolated instruments unless you want to put in the time to do a decent mix on the fly

8 tracks usb out to a small laptop could be a backup but thats cumbersome and the opposite direction we should be working imo

small tablet would probably have enough horsepower
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on September 08, 2019, 12:20:25 PM
With all this drama surrounding SD cards not being able to handle what the MixPre is capable of:

1. Is it possible that a good amount of newly produced flash media are simply not up the performance challenge of multi-channel, high-bitrate / depth audio?*  I think we can all agree at this point that the manufacturer speed rating of the card seems to mean little when it comes to audio applications, as has been proven time and again.  Remember that the 7-series used CF cards, hard drives, and SSDs.  I don't recall any drama about write problems.

2. If (1) is true, then why (other than cost) are audio recorder manufacturers still using this format?

3. If I was working for Sound Devices, I would have ditched the SD card slot in series II, and instead used m.2 NVME SSDs.  They are small, relatively inexpensive, and their read/write performance is superlative.  The recorder would probably never approach the limits of what that SSD could handle, but then you would be assured that you would never run into a media performance bottleneck.

---

*Alternate theory:

Could audio recorder manufacturers simply be using write buffers that are too small, as was speculated with the Tascam media performance issues?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 08, 2019, 12:36:24 PM

(SD card access requires removing the L battery sled, which is a nuisance and probably a source of future repair bills).  I may end up doing the transfer from the SD card anyway,

why not transfer via usb c direct from mp6 to computer?  that's how I do it on series 1.  I never take the card out....  even if computer doesn't have c get a c to a cable or something.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on September 08, 2019, 04:52:08 PM
Just luck that I didn't lose anything Friday and could do the file transfer to my computer from the USB flash (SD card access requires removing the L battery sled, which is a nuisance and probably a source of future repair bills).
Why not plug the MixPre into the computer using USB A (computer end) to USB C (MixPre end) with the supplied cable? Power the mix-pre on, go into SYSTEM ( home menu page 3) and select FILE TRANSFER (menu page 2)


The machine will say USB-C FILE TRANSFER MODE and the SD card will appear on your computer as a hard drive volume.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 08, 2019, 05:40:47 PM
Just luck that I didn't lose anything Friday and could do the file transfer to my computer from the USB flash (SD card access requires removing the L battery sled, which is a nuisance and probably a source of future repair bills).
Why not plug the MixPre into the computer using USB A (computer end) to USB C (MixPre end) with the supplied cable? Power the mix-pre on, go into SYSTEM ( home menu page 3) and select FILE TRANSFER (menu page 2)


The machine will say USB-C FILE TRANSFER MODE and the SD card will appear on your computer as a hard drive volume.

Yeah, I guess I could also do a complete format of the card this way.  I will still want the USB flash drive as a backup.  Since it takes me a while to knockdown my rig I can leave the MixPre powered up until I am ready to leave.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 08, 2019, 06:03:20 PM
the sled connection is very robust i wouldnt sweat breaking it.

'slow formatting' cards didnt seem to make a difference in any of my tests
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 08, 2019, 06:20:00 PM
With all this drama surrounding SD cards not being able to handle what the MixPre is capable of:

1. Is it possible that a good amount of newly produced flash media are simply not up the performance challenge of multi-channel, high-bitrate / depth audio?*

no they handle much higher loads on video and other sequential write applications. Every card ive tested has demonstrated stable operation at an order of magnitude higher sequential write rates than the mixpre requires

I think we can all agree at this point that the manufacturer speed rating of the card seems to mean little when it comes to audio applications, as has been proven time and again.  Remember that the 7-series used CF cards, hard drives, and SSDs.  I don't recall any drama about write problems.

as for the cards, every one i tested exceeded its rating (V30, V60, U3, which are 3-6X higher than the 'class 10' they specify)

as for the robustness of the 7-series, hard to say. For all you know those were dropping samples and not alerting anyone. Thats kind of the next step for the mixpres. Even if they can make the unit not crash and burn on buffer errors, it is possible that they just decide to allow tolerance to these errors without alerting. If the problem is suddenly and mysteriously solved in firmware i would surely be looking at the waveforms for evidence of dropped samples

*Alternate theory:

Could audio recorder manufacturers simply be using write buffers that are too small, as was speculated with the Tascam media performance issues?

seems more likely in this case. with that much available overhead it should be fairly simple to write data sequentially to media. 250 mhz computers could do this adequately to slow 2.5" IDE hard disks 20 years ago... while running a full OS as well. Looking at the high tech level of the patent application, its baffling how adequate buffering isnt an afterthought for these guys.. and they are silent on the issue.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: darby on September 09, 2019, 06:32:58 PM
I finally received my MixPre-6 II today since FedEx refused to deliver this weekend as scheduled.
I fire up the unit to set the Custom mode and set it up for 32 bit... I can't find 32 bit anywhere.
I powered it on and off and went thru Advanced and Basic setups and cannot find 32 bit.
I call Sound Devices tech support and speak with a guy named Sean who was quite helpful.
When he figured out I knew how to setup the unit, he had me restart it again and check the firmware.
My unit has firmware 3.03, which is incorrect for the II series, I should have 4.01.
I could either do a return with B&H, or wait for the firmware update since it is NOT ON THE WEBSITE YET.
Looks like they were in too big of a hurry to push these out.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 09, 2019, 08:40:37 PM
Mine came with firmware version 4.00.  That wasn't up yet, either.  Wonder what .01 fixes.

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on September 09, 2019, 09:36:06 PM
I finally received my MixPre-6 II today since FedEx refused to deliver this weekend as scheduled.
I fire up the unit to set the Custom mode and set it up for 32 bit... I can't find 32 bit anywhere.
I powered it on and off and went thru Advanced and Basic setups and cannot find 32 bit.
I call Sound Devices tech support and speak with a guy named Sean who was quite helpful.
When he figured out I knew how to setup the unit, he had me restart it again and check the firmware.
My unit has firmware 3.03, which is incorrect for the II series, I should have 4.01.
I could either do a return with B&H, or wait for the firmware update since it is NOT ON THE WEBSITE YET.
Looks like they were in too big of a hurry to push these out.

Hi Darby,

I spoke with Sean after seeing this. If you reach out to him now, he should now be able to get you up and running straight away.

Paul
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on September 09, 2019, 10:03:27 PM

Thought this might be of interest to some of you ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/low-signal-32-bit-float/

Paul
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: darby on September 09, 2019, 10:19:12 PM
I finally received my MixPre-6 II today since FedEx refused to deliver this weekend as scheduled.
I fire up the unit to set the Custom mode and set it up for 32 bit... I can't find 32 bit anywhere.
I powered it on and off and went thru Advanced and Basic setups and cannot find 32 bit.
I call Sound Devices tech support and speak with a guy named Sean who was quite helpful.
When he figured out I knew how to setup the unit, he had me restart it again and check the firmware.
My unit has firmware 3.03, which is incorrect for the II series, I should have 4.01.
I could either do a return with B&H, or wait for the firmware update since it is NOT ON THE WEBSITE YET.
Looks like they were in too big of a hurry to push these out.

Hi Darby,

I spoke with Sean after seeing this. If you reach out to him now, he should now be able to get you up and running straight away.

Paul

I received an email from Danny Greenwald with the correct firmware attached
after updating, I was able to get the unit to set up for 32 bit float... THANK YOU!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on September 09, 2019, 10:32:33 PM

Thought this might be of interest to some of you ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/low-signal-32-bit-float/

Paul

VERY impressive.  Though if I ever screw up a piano recording this badly so that I need to do a >100 dB boost, I'll just leave the business quietly.

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: gewwang on September 09, 2019, 10:33:30 PM
Got my mixpre-10 II with firmware v4.0 today (signature required or I would have had it Saturday).

Great job Sound Devices, I don't envision a need to upgrade for quite awhile.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on September 09, 2019, 10:38:11 PM

Thought this might be of interest to some of you ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/low-signal-32-bit-float/

Paul

that's cool!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: AB52 on September 10, 2019, 12:04:08 AM
I think I am going to order one.  Who else has better customer service than sound devices?  That has to be factored into a purchase.
I just do not understand how this much technology can be had for such a low price?
I wonder how good it really is for music recording?  I guess I will find out
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on September 10, 2019, 04:26:36 AM

Thought this might be of interest to some of you ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/low-signal-32-bit-float/

Paul

Very interesting. Would it be possible to post the ISOs from this, pre-fader? Also, what is the third gain stage mentioned on the webpage? It says, "trim gain set to minimum (6 dB), fader gain set to -50 dB, master left (L) gain set to -40 dB". What is the "master left"? On the first generation, there are only trim and fader (as far as I can tell).

Thanks for your participation on the forum, Paul. It is great to have you contributing here...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 10, 2019, 09:40:25 AM
^Post fader stereo mix gain, left channel only as the signal is mono. 



Thought this might be of interest to some of you ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/low-signal-32-bit-float/

Paul

Yes, thank you for your participation here Paul.  Very much appreciated! 

That 24bit file is a classic example of insufficient application of dither, resulting in audible noise modulation. As such, it highlights a bug in the 24bit mode operation of this unit.  If the unit was setup properly we should be hearing hearing decay into obviously audible dither noise in this >100dB amplified example, rather than into audible modulation noise.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: ts on September 10, 2019, 09:56:01 AM

Thought this might be of interest to some of you ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/low-signal-32-bit-float/

Paul

that's cool!

Yes, it is very cool indeed. I can see a stealther in front of a stack benefiting from this for obvious reasons or as the post said, someone recording fighter jets or thunder claps or making a huge error in setting levels. But a guy like me, who records pretty much the same kind of music from the taper section all the time in the same venues and sets levels the same all time, I really don’t see the need for it. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 10, 2019, 11:21:26 AM
Not wrong in questioning your actual need for it, though perhaps in premature consideration of the example as cool.   The example exposes incorrect setup of the recorder by SD for 24 bit recording mode operation.

Internally, the machine uses 32-bit floating-point representation of the signal downstream from the clever ADC operation covered by the patent.  From the example above it seems that when in 24-bit recording mode the machine truncates the internal 32-bit float representation without applying proper dither first, prior to storage in the 24 bit fixed-point format. 

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 10, 2019, 02:06:23 PM
aka Digital Fuckery
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 10, 2019, 02:39:12 PM
In other words, the primarily thing the posted SD example (https://www.sounddevices.com/low-signal-32-bit-float/) illustrates is what happens when 24 bit recording is done incorrectly, rather than the improvement 32 bit floating-point storage is capable of.   

Done correctly, the only audible difference would be the signal dropping into dither noise around the least significant bit level of the 24-bit file.  The 32-bit floating-point file should have a very similar sounding noise floor profile, just somewhat lower still.. defined by the noise-floor limits of the analog input stage / ADC stage rather than that of the 24-bit fixed-point container.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on September 10, 2019, 02:44:00 PM
In other words, the primarily thing the posted SD example (https://www.sounddevices.com/low-signal-32-bit-float/) illustrates is what happens when 24 bit recording is done incorrectly, rather than the improvement 32 bit floating-point storage is capable of.   

Done correctly, the only audible difference would be the signal dropping into dither noise around the least significant bit level of the 24-bit file.  The 32-bit floating-point file should have a very similar sounding noise floor profile, just somewhat lower still.. defined by the noise-floor limits of the analog input stage / ADC stage rather than that of the 24-bit fixed-point container.

Are you saying that this is a hardware problem in the new units?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 10, 2019, 03:49:08 PM
If the example accurately represents how the new units operate in 24bit mode, it represents an implementation error on SD's behalf with regard to these recorders.  I don't know if it is correctable via firmware or not. 

Is it a big deal?  Not in a practical sense for us or anyone using the recorder who isn't increasing gain by several orders of magnitude in post..  basically because of this:

Though if I ever screw up a piano recording this badly so that I need to do a >100 dB boost, I'll just leave the business quietly.

That ugly quantization noise which should not be heard at all in the 24 bit sample is in so low in level that in any reasonable real-world situation it effectively won't matter.

However, I do consider it a big deal for two more-fundamental reasons:
First SD is a highly reputable company.  A misleading example endangers their well-earned reputation and corporate good-will, even if only the technically minded folks notice the error.  This is aggravated when the claim is used specifically for marketing the product.  I'm not accusing SD of intentionally being misleading, only of making a mistake, drawing a false conclusion from it and leading customers to the same false conclusion.

Secondly, it represent a technical failure to implement a well-established fundamental rule of digital audio: Whenever reducing the bit-depth of a digital signal, always apply appropriate dither prior to truncation in order to avoid quantization noise artifacts.  Why has SD failed to implement this?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on September 10, 2019, 03:51:15 PM
The main point that these extreme examples are trying to demonstrate is that 32-bit float offers better accuracy and lower noise than 24-bit fixed point for super low level signals. Even if we did apply dither in 24-bit mode (which we don't), they'd still be less accurate and noisier than 32-bit float since you'd only have a few lower bits to encode the signal (e.g. 4 bits only gives you 16 amplitude levels), but in 32-bit float you have the full 24-bits (the mantissa). The dither might obscure the steps, but at the expense of more noise. The 32-bit float always maintains full 24-bit accuracy at lower levels.

Anyway, as I say, this example is mainly to make the point that no one need worry recording super low or super high levels with 32-bit float (with the wide dynamic range input stage of MixPre-II) and there are applications where that helps instill confidence.

To your point that we're trying to mislead people, certainly not intentionally - we're trying to educate people to the differences between fixed point and floating point because we have been getting many questions on this subject.  Re dither, we chose to not do internal dither because as you say, in the 24-bit real world with relatively normal gain staging, you'll never ever hear the lack of it.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 10, 2019, 05:19:48 PM
Yet it doesn't demonstrate better accuracy.   Additionally, it raises issues which are more concerning than the one it attempts to address.  For those who understand how digital audio works, this serves to diminish confidence in SD rather than inspire it.

Even if we did apply dither in 24-bit mode (which we don't) [..]

Okay. Confirmation no dither is being applied in 24-bit mode.  Why aren't standard best practices with regards to digital signal manipulation being followed?  If I were cynical, I might suggest such a compromisation of 24bit storage performance was being done to make 32-bit floating-point storage seem more of a practical improvement than it otherwise represents (which is what the example does).  But I'm not cynical and surmise that the engineers at SD have concluded this level of quantization noise is so inconsequential in practice it is not worth addressing, even if doing so would be the correct design approach. Then marketing folks offer an example of this bug as proof of low level "resolution" improvement provided by the shiny new feature.  Create a problem just to turn around and fix it.  SD can't have it both ways and remain truthful.

Quote
[..] they'd still be less accurate and noisier than 32-bit float since you'd only have a few lower bits to encode the signal (e.g. 4 bits only gives you 16 amplitude levels), but in 32-bit float you have the full 24-bits (the mantissa). The dither might obscure the steps, but at the expense of more noise. [..]

Noisier yes, because dither is intentional injection of noise at that low-level.  But not "less accurate".   You have yet to explain this repeated claim of accuracy other than simply restating it.

Dither is the intentional randomization of the least significant bit.  It randomizes the signal at the lowest stored value to prevent quantization noise from occurring, rather than obscuring it.  It does not obscure "steps" in level by burying them in noise.

Quote
[..]The 32-bit float always maintains full 24-bit accuracy at lower levels.

If you were to amplify further, enough to hear the noise-floor present in the 32-bit floating point file, the least-significant 4 bits above the noise-floor would similarly encode just 4 bits of dynamic range, not 24 bits worth.  You cannot digitally fabricate what was not there originally, nor would one want to.

[Note: bolding in the quoted portions above is mine]
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 10, 2019, 06:00:36 PM
Well if you keep on lowering the in signal too much you will at some point hit the noise floor. But the noise would still have a 24 bit resolution if 32-bit float is used although there will not be no wanted signal left to amplify.

A friend of mine is developing pre amps with extremely low noise floor.
-175dBV/root(Hz)

With an input level of -100dBV there’s still 75 left until you hit the floor.
A 32 bit float would keep on delivering in that situation while a fixed bit recorder would not.

I wish I didn’t own the first generation MP6 because then i would have bought the mixpre 6 II in an instant. 
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 10, 2019, 06:05:03 PM
To your point that we're trying to mislead people, certainly not intentionally - we're trying to educate people to the differences between fixed point and floating point because we have been getting many questions on this subject. [..]

The problem is that people are being mislead, even if unintentionally.  Paul, if you have the leverage, please try to arrange for the the technical people at SD to brief the sales, marketing and website folks so that everyone is on the same page.  I'm simply attempting to act as messenger about this disconnect, not as a character assassin.  Thanks for your patience in the wading to the technical waters on this here.

Quote
[..] Re dither, we chose to not do internal dither because as you say, in the 24-bit real world with relatively normal gain staging, you'll never ever hear the lack of it.

^Except when it is amplified dramatically and presented as an example of why the new 32-bit floating-point storage format feature is better!  It either matters or it doesn't.  As a company, which do you wish to claim?  This is why I suggest getting the technical SD folks in the room with the less technical folks at SD to help them answer the questions they are getting from customers.  Otherwise SD's credibility begins to fall into question.  At best it indicates a lack of internal communication and unified vision at the company.

My suggestion- Tell people this is really more about a storage format change than any change in recorder performance.  It's all about switching to a format capable of storing the last little bit of actual dynamic range throughput of which the front end of the recorder was already capable, yet was just shy of when previously recording to a 24-bit fixed-point format.  Not quite as sexy sounding, yet completely truthful and does not diminish the actual functional improvement of the new feature.


Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on September 10, 2019, 10:09:05 PM
Gutbucket:

I'm sympathetic to what you're saying. If I understand correctly, you're saying the following: SD decided not to implement dither when writing the 24bit data, based on the assumption that most users would be able to get decent levels so as to obviate the need for it. You, however, argue that adding the dither wouldn't have hurt, and because it could have helped (for example when people don't in fact get decent levels- precisely kind of situation exaggerated in the graphic comparisons posted above) they should have implemented dither in the first place. Having not done so, however, you feel that it's wrong to market the 32bit float as a solution to a self-implemented problem. Correct?

On the other hand, I'm also sympathetic to SD. Do any of SD's competitors implement dithering of 24bit signals? Sonosax? Zoom? Tascam? There must be some cost, in time or money, to implement the dither! They made the decision not to implement dither based on the reasonable assumption, that normal users would adjust gain to get decent levels. That doesn't seem so far fetched to me, but, then again, I'm a religion professor, not an engineer.   :spin: :rockets:

My read of all of this is as follows: Long after making the 24bit no dither decision, SD decided to tweak the product (version II) to allow for a novel 32bit float option, which just so happens to have a side effect of solving the very problem they decided not to anticipate initially. So the marketers decide to run with it, saying, essentially, "look at us, our gear solves even very remote problems." Given the outright bullshit that much of their competition employs, I don't agree with giving them crap for it. I too get excited when I outsmart myself, and realize after the fact that my decisions were even better than I thought they were before I did what I did. (Buying extra toilet paper when it was on sale comes immediately to mind).

They're not lying. It actually does make sense to use the 32bit float option, unless you need endless recoding time, and thus can't afford the large file sizes 32bit float creates.

I have to say, my interest is peaked. I'm really tempted to sell my mixpre6 (make an offer tapirs!!!!) and I'll get the new one for not much money. I would go to a show, set up my gear with 32bit float (@ 48khz because I can't hear the difference with 96 or 192 anyway), seal the bag, and stash it under my seat. When the lights go down I'd press record through the wingman app, and press stop (or not) at set break. Foolproof, no need to look at or even expose my bag at all during the show.

I remember clearly making the move from cassette to DAT, and realizing that I never ever had to worry about a tape flip again. This seems like a step forward in a similar way, never having to worry about levels.

Then again, having run the Mixpre6 for a few years, it's really easy to guess the ballpark gain setting needed, and 24bit files are likely more than enough, given the noise floor at a rock concert, and I'm already really happy with both the product and the tech support....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 10, 2019, 10:12:17 PM
I have to say, my interest is peaked. I'm really tempted to sell my mixpre6 I and get the new one.

for me it comes down to whether the II can handle writing to SD better than the first gen, which is abysmal TBH
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 10, 2019, 10:18:27 PM
I have to say, my interest is peaked. I'm really tempted to sell my mixpre6 I and get the new one.

for me it comes down to whether the II can handle writing to SD better than the first gen, which is abysmal TBH

which for 99% of users has been a non issue!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on September 10, 2019, 10:31:04 PM



Okay. Confirmation no dither is being applied in 24-bit mode.  Why aren't standard best practices with regards to digital signal manipulation being followed?

We absolutely follow them when they offer a practical, tangible benefit to the end user.

Quote
... but I am not cynical and surmise that the engineers at SD have concluded this level of quantization noise is so inconsequential in practice it is not worth addressing
You surmise correctly therefore you are not cynical;)

Quote
Then marketing folks offer an example of this bug as proof of low level "resolution" improvement provided by the shiny new feature.  Create a problem just to turn around and fix it.  SD can't have it both ways and remain truthful.

I wrote this, not marketing - I'm an engineer BTW ... I think;) I was simply comparing apples to apples - '24-bit, no dither' v '32-bit, no dither'. I do get what you're saying - a fairer example perhaps would be to compare to a dithered 24-bit file  - I can look into having that changed if it bothers people. BTW, I wouldn't view not applying dither in 24-bit mode a bug - rather it is one of the many engineering design choices we made during the development of MixPre, a choice that as you say, and I agree, is inconsequential in terms of audio quality. Design frequently involves making difficult choices and in this case, we made the right one, IMHO.

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on September 10, 2019, 10:33:19 PM
I have to say, my interest is peaked. I'm really tempted to sell my mixpre6 I and get the new one.

for me it comes down to whether the II can handle writing to SD better than the first gen, which is abysmal TBH

jerryfreak, I have to say, I've been really surprised by your posts on this.

I've never experienced any problems, either with my SD 32g card or my Sandisk extreme 64g card. I tend to write 6 tracks (no stereo mixdown) at 24/48, and sometimes 24/96, and nobody else I know has either.

I'm not doubting you, obviously, but the "abysmal" claim seems a little over the top, at least given my own experience. The Tascam Dr-70d was "abysmal." In comparison, the SD has been "rock solid."

Has Paul not responded here about this?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on September 10, 2019, 10:35:20 PM
I wrote this, not marketing

I can look into having that changed if it bothers people.

This friends, is why I'm really happy to give SD my money.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on September 10, 2019, 10:38:38 PM
Jerryfreak - we will take a deeper look.

Noah - you are correct - this might affect a very small number of people, those who are recording 8-tracks or more at 192 kHz/24-bit.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 10, 2019, 10:44:11 PM

Has Paul not responded here about this?

not sure if it was Paul but SD said to not use micro sd cards which majority of his test were with micro sd. 

Same speed/specs or not I wouldn't trust a micro in an adapter!  if the deck was designed for micro and used them then sure but....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on September 10, 2019, 11:14:17 PM
Same speed/specs or not I wouldn't trust a micro in an adapter!
One extra point of failure for each pin on the card. Nah gon' do.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 11, 2019, 12:41:12 AM
which for 99% of users has been a non issue!

yes thats fine if you are "the 99% of users" who wish to record at 20-50% of the bitrate the unit is claimed to support. Obviously your "99%" stat is hyperbolic but that doesnt mean we cant ask for the vendors to support their units at the features they advertise, which would give us more confidence using the unit at all bitrates

not sure if it was Paul but SD said to not use micro sd cards which majority of his test were with micro sd. 

it was Sound Device's default tech support email. At the current time, the majority of tests in that thread (not all by me) are with full size SD cards of appropriate spec, see below


jerryfreak, I have to say, I've been really surprised by your posts on this.

I've never experienced any problems, either with my SD 32g card or my Sandisk extreme 64g card. I tend to write 6 tracks (no stereo mixdown) at 24/48, and sometimes 24/96, and nobody else I know has either.

likewise at the low utilization you mention (<1MB/sec in your usual 6x 24/48). Ive recorded in those same conditions flawlessly with $5 U1 rated cards. Thats not the issue. The device cannot successfully write "high" bitrates of 2-4MB sec on the vast majority of cards that can routinely handle 40-60+ MB/sec sustained writes on multiple controllers

If you have some time please test the full capacity of your current cards at 8 channels of 24/192 (4.5 MB write rate) and report to the thread, the data would be very useful. The more individual machines and firmwares we have data on, the better.

This isnt a witchhunt, its sadly necessary because after several years on the market Sound Devices has literally listed exactly one proprietary card, which apart from being considerably more expensive than other cards of same spec, anecdotally has a 100% failure rate from reports ive heard from users here (1 of 1, but still...). I cant consider that acceptable support. After close to 200 hours of testing, i have personally found one card (32gb extreme pro micro), which at that short recording time means ive only managed to prove that card can write 1:45 straight without error (and was able to replicate). Sadly i misplaced that card (damn tiny micros) so after all that testing i still dont have a card in my bag that i am comfortable with
 
I'm not doubting you, obviously, but the "abysmal" claim seems a little over the top, at least given my own experience. The Tascam Dr-70d was "abysmal." In comparison, the SD has been "rock solid."

current tests (8 channel 24/192):
# of full size SD cards of appropriate spec tested: 7
# of these cards that worked: 1

current tests (8 channel 24/192):
# of full size SD cards of appropriate spec tested: 6
# of these cards that worked: 1

Unfortuantely SD is not paying me to test their gear, so our sample size is still really small. Both of those numbers is what i personally would consider "abysmal". And these are with current 2019 cards on a device deemed 'stable' with the slower media that existed 2 years ago

Has Paul not responded here about this?

the post below yours was the first time he has acknowledged it here.

SD support did not give me any answers other than "buy some more cards to test" and "dont use microSD",the latter of which seems like a catch-all generic answer as actual testing shows no difference in this regard. You would assume that if Sound Devices had tested even as many cards as I have in the last few weeks, they would have some recommendations for cards that work

this might affect a very small number of people, those who are recording 8-tracks or more at 192 kHz/24-bit.

thank you for acknowledging it, but you may want to mention that people who choose to use the device at its stated specs are using it at its own risk and should anticipate higher failure rates  (although Im not sure >80% is a failure rate that the target market is comfortable with....)

I know that sounds snarky but at the current time it represents the facts at hand. I personally dont record at 192K nor do i personally have a need to record mixdown tracks on the fly.

to put it in perspective the mixpre is choking on almost every card tested, at under 10% of their real-world sequential write speed. Sometimes as low as 5% of their real-world sequential write speed. Many users are writing these cards successfully at 1-5% of the speeds and that works... but is not a lot of cushion.  While 32-bit float offers some advantage im not sure i personally would risk increasing my datarate 33% and risk catastrophe. Thats the same reason i dont record at 96K in the field - doubling the data rate is tempting fate for buffer errors.

I know that the mixpre has been in use successfully for a few years, its unfortunate that nobody took the time to fully test the unit. (I've only had one for a few months now) People tend to take for granted that gear they buy has been adequately tested and is robust. I know for some people the shows they attend have dozens of pairs of other microphones recording the same thing. Thats not the case for everyone, I tend to treat every field outing as mission critical. I usually never take a digital recorder into the field unless I can demonstrate it can record for 100s of hours on the bench without a hiccup. Ive been testing field recording and DAT>wav transfer setups for close to 20 years and have rejected many because of dropped samples, resampling, channel swapping, lack of stability, etc.

I want to believe that Sound Devices is pro gear and provides support accordingly. I expect more than say, m-audio and creative labs for the cost of thier gear. I encourage everyone to test their cards and report, we are already observing trends such as much higher failure rates on the back half of cards, and often failures within < 2minutes of starting write on a new file. This is info that can help them solve the problem, so we all win.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on September 11, 2019, 04:58:15 AM
^Post fader stereo mix gain, left channel only as the signal is mono. 

Funny; I never even noticed that option before. That's probably because, even though I usually record the L/R mix (unlike many here), I am not particularly interested in digitally manipulating the files on the recorder itself. I want the pre-fader ISOs and will adjust as needed on the DAW. That's also why I am interested in seeing the ISOs for the comparison Paul posted, as I want to see if I can discern a difference between 24-bit and 32-bit float without applying a ton of digital gain.

This isnt a witchhunt, its sadly necessary because after several years on the market Sound Devices has literally listed exactly one proprietary card, which apart from being considerably more expensive than other cards of same spec, anecdotally has a 100% failure rate from reports ive heard from users here (1 of 1, but still...).

Maybe I am not remembering it correctly, but wasn't morst's card defective (a "bad card" error as opposed to the buffer error)?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on September 11, 2019, 05:27:54 AM
This isnt a witchhunt, its sadly necessary because after several years on the market Sound Devices has literally listed exactly one proprietary card, which apart from being considerably more expensive than other cards of same spec, anecdotally has a 100% failure rate from reports ive heard from users here (1 of 1, but still...).
Maybe I am not remembering it correctly, but wasn't morst's card defective (a "bad card" error as opposed to the buffer error)?
I don't recall off the top of my head but whatever I posted contemporaneously is the best we'll do. I should have taken a photo of the screen but I was in a hurry to just get recording again. I think it said Bad Card or Card Error. I seem to recall that it was a matter of trying to make the machine start recording, and it would not start, and I pressed Record again and it protested with the error message.


By the way, I bought two of the cards, and the other has been rock solid. The replacement card that I got is still sealed in its package as a spare. I am reluctant to use it, though, since 50% of the SD branded cards I have tried have failed!!! (not 100%)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 11, 2019, 08:14:16 PM

Okay. Confirmation no dither is being applied in 24-bit mode.  Why aren't standard best practices with regards to digital signal manipulation being followed?

We absolutely follow them when they offer a practical, tangible benefit to the end user.

By highlighting the very low level quantization artifacts as significant, you are claiming a real, practical, tangible benefit on one hand.. while simultaneously claiming it has no real, practical, tangible impact worthy of correction on the other.  These claims are in logical conflict.  I fully believe SD does follow standard best practices where they are worthwhile to the end user < and this calls into question the worth of the new feature which solves a problem previously considered so insignificant it did not need to be addressed.  Doesn't matter on one hand; yet is claimed to be important on the other.  I feel it is innovative and a good feature, if not based on some of the explanations which have been offered.

Quote from: Gutbucket
Quote from: Paul Isaacs
... but I am not cynical and surmise that the engineers at SD have concluded this level of quantization noise is so inconsequential in practice it is not worth addressing
You surmise correctly therefore you are not cynical;)
Thanks.  ;)  the problem is your example specifically makes it out to be something of significance which the new feature avoids.

Quote
I wrote this, not marketing - I'm an engineer BTW ... I think;) I was simply comparing apples to apples - '24-bit, no dither' v '32-bit, no dither'. I do get what you're saying - a fairer example perhaps would be to compare to a dithered 24-bit file  - I can look into having that changed if it bothers people. BTW, I wouldn't view not applying dither in 24-bit mode a bug - rather it is one of the many engineering design choices we made during the development of MixPre, a choice that as you say, and I agree, is inconsequential in terms of audio quality. Design frequently involves making difficult choices and in this case, we made the right one, IMHO.
 
The example doesn't really compare apples to apples though.  A dithered 24-bit file would not sound as ugly without quantization noise, nor show visible "steps" in the display. If you were to recreate the comparison using proper dither, it would make for a better comparison with regards to the claim of low level "resolution" improvement (which with all due respect does not exist as you've described), in that the only apparent difference between the two would be the 24bit sample decaying into a floor of dither hiss, while the 32 bit sample decays into silence at the same level. Both would have the same "resolution of microdynamic loudness levels" above that level, which gets to the heart of our contention about low level "resolution".

However, straight comparison has grown more complicated now that we know 24-bit renderings from the 32-bit float internal workings of the system are not dithered.   The comparison as it stands is correct with regards to the actual operation of the machine in its current implementation.  It's the conflation of quantization noise with a lack of "low level resolution" in the example that is misleading.  And that erroneous claim is being made repeatedly in many of the layman's descriptions of how 32-bit floating point recording works.  I urge you to dig deeper into this, and why I among others have been pushing back against it.

Paul,
I realize I've been challenging you quite strongly on this, and I want to thank you again for your presence here and willingness to engage in honest discussion.  Kudos to you and SD for the good support.  Sound Devices is a market leader with strong engineering credentials and customer service history which places you all in a good position to really help users think about what is actually an appropriate fit for their needs and what is not, in part by way of being open with specifications and a willingness to explain engineering realities.  I believe this can differentiate SD from its less capable competitors.  Honest explanation of such things will at times clash with popular layman understanding.  But SD is in good position to be the "real answer" people based on actual engineering principles which people trust in light of other outfit's unsubstantiated hyperbolic claims.

I'd like to hear and see what the 32-bit float file sounds like with further amplification to raise it's noise-floor to the equivalent level of the 24-bit file noise floor.  Curious what the actual level difference between those noise floors is and if similar quantization noise is exposed around that level or if it "self dithers" with system and environmental noise.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 11, 2019, 08:49:40 PM
Noah,
I am holding SD to a high standard of intellectual honesty in their explanation of and justification for the new feature.  Sound Devices prides themselves as a company providing professional grade gear, as such I hold them to a high professional standard.  That includes good customer support, honest engineering specifications, and justifications for design choices which are in logical agreement rather than contradiction. 

Gutbucket:

I'm sympathetic to what you're saying. If I understand correctly, you're saying the following: SD decided not to implement dither when writing the 24bit data, based on the assumption that most users would be able to get decent levels so as to obviate the need for it. You, however, argue that adding the dither wouldn't have hurt, and because it could have helped (for example when people don't in fact get decent levels- precisely kind of situation exaggerated in the graphic comparisons posted above) they should have implemented dither in the first place. Having not done so, however, you feel that it's wrong to market the 32bit float as a solution to a self-implemented problem. Correct?

In explaining the new functionality, we are offered an example of how new functionality overcomes a previous deficit (hand waves one way) yet at the same time we are told that the deficit is so minor that it made no sense to address it (hand waves the other way).

It is disingenuous to use what was previously deemed so inconsequential that it did not make sense to address at all as a key justification for the new feature.   

If thinking really has changed so much that what was previously deemed inconsequential is now considered significant, the previously inconsequential problem should be corrected.   Otherwise it places SD in logical conflict with their own conclusions:  The provision of a new 32bit float recording option may serve as a "work around", but does not correct the original issue - yet if the original issue wasn't really a problem to begin with, what is the value of the new feature which is largely being justified by eliminating the non-problem?

In more detail-
It is contradictory to claim that dithering is inconsequential when digitizing directly to 24 bit or when reducing the bit depth of an existing digital stream down to 24bit, while claiming at the same time that recording an even greater bit depth beyond 24bits provides a meaningful improvement because it avoids quantization noise at the 24 bit level.

This is not so much SD's solution to a "self-implemented problem" but more akin to a work-around which ignores it, while ignoring it calls into question the value of the work around.  Not sure I agree with it but I trust the SD engineers who decided there was no practical need for dither at the 24bit level, even though that would be correct practice.  It's a typical engineering trade off decision, deciding available resources are better applied elsewhere. Yet if I go with them with regards to that choice (which they seemingly confirm in the new series by not correcting it), why should I now be asked to disregard that because a new feature is being justified by way of its ability to record information of less even significance? 

Engineering is a factually-based problem solving endeavor, revolving around logical choices in the pursuit of an optimal solution within a given set of constraints.  Sales and marketing are more emotionally based social endeavors.  There is almost always tension between these things.   Support attempts to bridge the disparate realms!

Long live SD, long live good engineering, and long live the pursuit of truth.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on September 11, 2019, 10:10:09 PM
Noah,
I am holding SD to a high standard of intellectual honesty in their explanation of and justification for the new feature.  Sound Devices prides themselves as a company providing professional grade gear, as such I hold them to a high professional standard.  That includes good customer support, honest engineering specifications, and justifications for design choices which are in logical agreement rather than contradiction.

I, for one, am thankful that you've done so, as it also helps me (and likely others) in my thinking about upgrading to this new version of a machine with which I'm already happy. You've also made SD at least think about adding a 24bit dithering option; pursuit of truth is always good.

In explaining the new functionality, we are offered an example of how new functionality overcomes a previous deficit (hand waves one way) yet at the same time we are told that the deficit is so minor that it made no sense to address it (hand waves the other way). It is disingenuous to use what was previously deemed so inconsequential that it did not make sense to address at all as a key justification for the new feature.   

I understand your claim. But I think you're making a category error here. SD didn't create the mixpre6 II in order to correct a "previously inconsequential problem." They introduced a new model because they figured out how to compete with their competition by introducing a new product with a number of improvements, among which happens to be a 32bit floating point data writing option, which, among other benefits, happens to address the particular (mostly inconsequential) negative consequences of an otherwise reasonable design decision.

I read Paul as just pointing out a cool (still mostly inconsequential) side befit to using their new 32bit float. For my needs, this test shows me that this machine does a cool thing that the old one can't.

Long live SD, long live good engineering, and long live the pursuit of truth.

Amen!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on September 11, 2019, 11:29:37 PM
where are we at with a "hold" function?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 11, 2019, 11:34:43 PM
where are we at with a "hold" function?

+1 for this. easy to implement in firmware for the -6 and -10 with the * key
short press=lock
long press=unlock
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 12, 2019, 12:08:22 AM
where are we at with a "hold" function?

+1 for this. easy to implement in firmware for the -6 and -10 with the * key
short press=lock
long press=unlock

That would be a very nice feature.
I really hope would get that one.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 12, 2019, 09:59:51 AM
I understand your claim. But I think you're making a category error here. SD didn't create the mixpre6 II in order to correct a "previously inconsequential problem." They introduced a new model because they figured out how to compete with their competition by introducing a new product with a number of improvements, among which happens to be a 32bit floating point data writing option, which, among other benefits, happens to address the particular (mostly inconsequential) negative consequences of an otherwise reasonable design decision.

Totally agreed that SD did not create the mixpre II series to correct a "previously inconsequential problem."  What I have a problem with is the recategorization of what was is still considered a previously inconsequential problem, which has now been deemed consequential in explanations of the new feature.. yet is still claimed as not consequential with regards to 24 bit operation. Can't be both.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DavidPuddy on September 12, 2019, 10:42:08 AM
where are we at with a "hold" function?

+1 for this. easy to implement in firmware for the -6 and -10 with the * key
short press=lock
long press=unlock

Also would be very useful on the wingman app (among numerous other things). I use the * button for ch 5&6.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: lerond on September 12, 2019, 03:42:48 PM
where are we at with a "hold" function?

+1 for this. easy to implement in firmware for the -6 and -10 with the * key
short press=lock
long press=unlock

+2 (both thumbs up!)

I also currently use * for access to 5/6, but I'd rather use it for a lock/unlock function...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 12, 2019, 03:47:31 PM
Simply use a “short press” for star-select function.
And “long/hold press” for lock/unlock toggle function.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 12, 2019, 05:39:54 PM
Simply use a “short press” for star-select function.
And “long/hold press” for lock/unlock toggle function.

thats great. preserves its functionality and adds lock/unlock feature on long press
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on September 12, 2019, 06:07:19 PM

I'm gonna second this. Thanks, Paul and SD for "keeping it real!"
 :clapping:
Paul,
I realize I've been challenging you quite strongly on this, and I want to thank you again for your presence here and willingness to engage in honest discussion.  Kudos to you and SD for the good support.  Sound Devices is a market leader with strong engineering credentials and customer service history which places you all in a good position to really help users think about what is actually an appropriate fit for their needs and what is not, in part by way of being open with specifications and a willingness to explain engineering realities.  I believe this can differentiate SD from its less capable competitors.  Honest explanation of such things will at times clash with popular layman understanding.  But SD is in good position to be the "real answer" people based on actual engineering principles which people trust in light of other outfit's unsubstantiated hyperbolic claims.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: checht on September 14, 2019, 07:37:19 PM
where are we at with a "hold" function?

How would hold work considering the gain knobs? Put unit on hold, knob is turned, hold switched off. Then what?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 14, 2019, 08:35:08 PM
Hold is to stop the ability to accidentally power down. Every deck I've had with it does only that (from what I recall). Gain knobs still work etc....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: gewwang on September 14, 2019, 08:59:07 PM
where are we at with a "hold" function?

How would hold work considering the gain knobs? Put unit on hold, knob is turned, hold switched off. Then what?

The Sony D100 has a hold slider but it doesn't "hold" the gain knobs. When it's engaged the user can still adjust levels with the gain knobs.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on September 15, 2019, 09:59:09 AM
i don't see why the hold function can't disable the gain knobs as well.  that would be a nice added option.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Ozpeter on September 15, 2019, 10:08:41 AM
On my humble Zoom F1, it not only has the usual "hold" sllder switch, but also an "auto hold" function selectable in the menus.  When that is enabled, once you start recording, the device is totally locked including level (which is a push button level so that's easy to implement) and the only way to unlock it is to press the "stop" and "record" buttons at the same time (as I recall it - two buttons, anyway).

Normally locking levels might not be a good thing because if incorrectly set, you'd have to actually stop the recording to change them.  But on the SD device, I guess if levels are incorrectly set, it doesn't actually matter.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Ronmac on September 15, 2019, 01:38:04 PM
For its primary use cases (Sound for film/videographers/front end to computer) a hold button is not necessary, and would slow down workflow if used or set inadvertently.

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 15, 2019, 04:20:18 PM
short review

https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/09/15/sound-devices-mix-pre-series-ii/
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 16, 2019, 09:24:24 AM
On my humble Zoom F1...

Zoom's hold implementation on the F8/F8N is superficially attractive in that the menu allows one to select which functions are locked and which are not when hold is engaged.  However, the fatal flaw that makes it useless is that to engage/disengage hold one must use a key combination which involves pressing buttons that can stop the recording.  Not going to risk that.  Good idea on selection options, but very questionable engage/disengage implementation.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on September 16, 2019, 10:33:43 AM
Most implementations of a hold lock only the stop, record, play, etc. buttons and not the gain knobs. The goal is to prevent the accidental stopping of a recording.

This is, at least, how the hold function works on both the Tascam da-p1 and the Sony m10
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: checht on September 16, 2019, 11:43:13 AM
Roland r7 hold locks everything on the unit, and doesn't impact the bluetooth remote at all.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 16, 2019, 11:56:41 AM
I think most handhelds except Sony lock everything. The handhelds I use - Tascam DR2ds, previously Edirol R-09s - lock all of their functions.  If turned on in the menu, the DR2d's infrared remote bypasses hold (which is the prefered implementation IMO).  The old R-09 displays a small hold is on message on screen when any button is pressed which is helpful in avoiding a WTF moment when one does not remember that it is engaged.

Regarding more complex multichannel decks: Tascam Dr-680 is switchable to lock either all front-panel controls (except headphone gain) or all top-panel controls, or both panels.  In lock-both-panels mode everything except headphones is locked.  I can't recall if R-44 locks gain its gain/sensitivity controls or not, but it locks everything else except headphone gain. 

I don't tend to use lock much on these larger multi channel recorders, but almost always do on the handhelds.

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: adrianb on September 16, 2019, 02:22:01 PM
I don't suppose the battery life is any better on the MixPre II series, but would appreciate it if somebody could confirm.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Brian G on September 17, 2019, 08:09:11 AM
I don't suppose the battery life is any better on the MixPre II series, but would appreciate it if somebody could confirm.

I do not have a Ver. 1 10t, but on the 10II running 4 channels, and a mix track with a RAV23000, it had 25% left after 6 hours.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: adrianb on September 17, 2019, 10:16:57 AM
I do not have a Ver. 1 10t, but on the 10II running 4 channels, and a mix track with a RAV23000, it had 25% left after 6 hours.

If that's just on the 8xAA batteries that that sounds rather excellent. I don't get near that on my Mixpre-3 (Ver 1) with the 8AA battery sled.

At the moment I'm 50:50 whether to upgrade, but if the hardware changes have led to any noticeable battery life improvement then I'm almost certain to upgrade.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 17, 2019, 10:37:08 AM
he said with RAV23000.  so a battery pack.  I doubt AA is any better than it used to be.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 17, 2019, 10:44:38 AM
I do not have a Ver. 1 10t, but on the 10II running 4 channels, and a mix track with a RAV23000, it had 25% left after 6 hours.

If that's just on the 8xAA batteries that that sounds rather excellent. I don't get near that on my Mixpre-3 (Ver 1) with the 8AA battery sled.

At the moment I'm 50:50 whether to upgrade, but if the hardware changes have led to any noticeable battery life improvement then I'm almost certain to upgrade.

i wouldnt bank on it. same pres and it seems phantom eats up the most power. if it was a significant improvement theyd probably be touting it
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: adrianb on September 17, 2019, 10:48:55 AM
Oh dear, my reading comprehension has deteriorated somewhat. Back to 50:50 then.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on September 17, 2019, 05:18:01 PM
i don't see why the hold function can't disable the gain knobs as well.  that would be a nice added option.
The way this is implemented on the tascam dr70d is terrible.
If a level knob gets moved while holding, then no level change occurs. But when the deck is switched off hold (maybe to stop the recording, or make a level change) the setting JUMPS to the knob location.
Awful.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on September 17, 2019, 06:05:09 PM
i don't see why the hold function can't disable the gain knobs as well.  that would be a nice added option.
The way this is implemented on the tascam dr70d is terrible.
If a level knob gets moved while holding, then no level change occurs. But when the deck is switched off hold (maybe to stop the recording, or make a level change) the setting JUMPS to the knob location.
Awful.

Change the record, man.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 17, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
It's implemented decently in other recorders where once hold is disengaged, each pot must be turned back to the original position it had when lock was engaged prior to the pot becoming operational again.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 17, 2019, 06:48:06 PM
tascam DR100 mk3 has some options for this

hold can be set to "off", "all" or "levels", i wish it had "all but levels"

worse are the recorders like the sony A10 where hold and power are on the same slider and unlocking it risks powering down if you go too far

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on September 18, 2019, 12:11:18 AM
It's implemented decently in other recorders where once hold is disengaged, each pot must be turned back to the original position it had when lock was engaged prior to the pot becoming operational again.
That would be great. Too bad That Awful Sound Company Around Mediocre couldn't implement that on the DR70D before they gave up on the firmware!? Glad I have a MixPre6 as my "A Unit" now!


i don't see why the hold function can't disable the gain knobs as well.  that would be a nice added option.
The way this is implemented on the tascam dr70d is terrible.If a level knob gets moved while holding, then no level change occurs. But when the deck is switched off hold (maybe to stop the recording, or make a level change) the setting JUMPS to the knob location.Awful.
Change the record, man.

Am in in the habit of taking your advice on this topic?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Dillon on September 18, 2019, 03:03:18 PM
My biggest complaint with the Mixpre6 is the battery sled.  It's plastic and dislodges easily.  Makes me nervous.  Recently the the plastic clip broke, it still works but I have to use a rubber band.  Other than that it's a solid product.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: IronFilm on September 22, 2019, 04:51:06 AM
On my humble Zoom F1...

Zoom's hold implementation on the F8/F8N is superficially attractive in that the menu allows one to select which functions are locked and which are not when hold is engaged.  However, the fatal flaw that makes it useless is that to engage/disengage hold one must use a key combination which involves pressing buttons that can stop the recording.  Not going to risk that.  Good idea on selection options, but very questionable engage/disengage implementation.

False, not true at all!

You can just hit "8" and the F8n/F8 will be locked while recording. No need to go anywhere near touching the "stop" button! :-)

Very handy when in a drop bag scenario, if you're worried about the camera/director/whoever accidentally (or not!) stopping your recorder.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 23, 2019, 11:30:57 AM
Thanks for that correction. It is indeed true in all modes.. except when in record, apparently - a detail of which I was unaware which alleviates the concern. 

From the user manual p.190 - List of shortcuts:

[stop] + [8]  = Use to disable the keys set with "Key Hold Target".
During recording, the [stop] key does not need to be used.


In other words- use of the the stop button is required to engage/disengage hold at all other times.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on September 23, 2019, 11:46:07 AM

MixPre Version 4.01 has just been released today for all MixPre Gen I and Gen II models.

Changed

Limiter settings are now available in Custom Mode setups with Gain set to Advanced (MixPre-3 II, MixPre-6 II, and MixPre-10 II).

Fixed

Improvements to SD card writing performance (all models).
AAC rendering of Music Projects no longer results in error (applies to all models with Music features).
Files with only Track R recorded now playback correctly (does not apply to M models).
Record Buffer Errors no longer occur after cycling power while using Record Run timecode (MixPre-10T only).
Various stability issues no longer occur when switching in and out of 32-bit float operation (MixPre-3 II, MixPre-6 II, MixPre-10 II).
Brief gap in LTC timecode output signal no longer occurs during a record split (MixPre-3 II and MixPre-6 II).
Timecode no longer drifts or stamps to the file with an offset. (MixPre-3 II and MixPre-6 II)
Various performance improvements.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: 3mdk5 on September 23, 2019, 05:17:18 PM
Perhaps that is why B&H have them on sale now?  $400 off the 10T, $150 off the 6...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: IronFilm on September 23, 2019, 11:09:14 PM
Thanks for that correction. It is indeed true in all modes.. except when in record, apparently - a detail of which I was unaware which alleviates the concern. 

From the user manual p.190 - List of shortcuts:

[stop] + [8]  = Use to disable the keys set with "Key Hold Target".
During recording, the [stop] key does not need to be used.


In other words- use of the the stop button is required to engage/disengage hold at all other times.

Which is a sensible approach, as when not recording those buttons on the Zoom F8n/F8 need to be used for other things! (in this case arming/disarming channel 8)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: IronFilm on September 23, 2019, 11:54:01 PM
Perhaps that is why B&H have them on sale now?  $400 off the 10T, $150 off the 6...

Yes, and the MixPre10 Gen2 saw a BIG price drop.

I honestly feel even $400 off the MixPre10T Gen1 isn't enough.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: adrianb on September 25, 2019, 03:46:41 AM
I've sort of answered my own earlier question regarding battery life on the II series by buying one.

Using 8 Eneloop batteries in my new MixPre-3 II, powering two Sennheiser 8040 mics, timecode switched off, recording just two ISO tracks at 32-bit float and I got just a couple of minutes over 5 hours.

"That'll do for me" I thought, since I use it for ambient recordings so rarely need more than an hour or two.

However, before selling my old MixPre-3 I thought I would repeat the test. Same setup, but with tracks at 24-bit, and I got just a few minutes short of 6 hours. Better than I imagined. I suspect this is because recording 32-bit float uses 20% more power, maybe I need to repeat the test at 24-bit on the II.

I've always been annoyed at the battery life of the MixPre-3, but never wanted the inconvenience of external power solutions. I suspect my annoyance has simply been a result of my own indiscipline, leaving batteries in the sled and finding they only last for a couple of hours when I pick it up.

(This is what I love about my Sony recorders. I can leave them in the car for months and they just work when I want to use them).

I am impressed with the 32-bit float. I will find it very useful for what I do, recording thunderstorms etc. I can happily report that 32-bit files work in Audacity.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 25, 2019, 03:54:05 AM
low self discharge batteries would help your cause
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on September 25, 2019, 09:13:59 AM
Eneloop = low self discharge NiMH
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: adrianb on September 25, 2019, 09:38:56 AM
Perhaps when I leave Eneloop AA batteries in the sled attached to the MixPre they are being drained even with the MixPre powered off. I can think of some more tests to do now!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: adrianb on September 25, 2019, 04:00:02 PM
I've been having enormous fun trying to break this thing in 32-bit float by playing music at high volumes and cranking the gain up so that the levels are permanently off the scale, and then dialling it back to be totally listenable in Audacity. Perhaps I am being a little immature with this new toy, which is little different from my old toy.

But it makes me think that the moment 32-bit float becomes available in a small recorder such as the M10 then there's going to be some ecstatic tapers of the stealth variety. 
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on September 26, 2019, 12:18:45 AM
But it makes me think that the moment 32-bit float becomes available in a small recorder such as the M10 then there's going to be some ecstatic tapers of the stealth variety.

well the tentacle, albeit mono, will lead this charge
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 26, 2019, 04:34:27 PM
Does anyone have firmware v4 (not 4.01) handy? I need to roll back to test something. Got my 6 II today and having major issues (more on that later when I can post videos).

On the download page hitting "previous version" does nothing.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: adrianb on September 26, 2019, 04:45:23 PM
I've got v4 on my new unit. What major issue is it? Should I refrain from updating to 4.01?

Also, I've noticed that I can get the MP3 to playback 32-bit float recorded files in the unit itself. It can play 24-bit files okay, but I can't get it to play the 32-bit float files on the machine that's recorded them. Any ideas anyone? They play okay in Audacity and VLC.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jbell on September 26, 2019, 04:56:02 PM
Who would buy at the same price as the new models?  :shrug:  If the Mixpre 10t came down to $1000 I would consider one.

Perhaps that is why B&H have them on sale now?  $400 off the 10T, $150 off the 6...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 26, 2019, 05:01:03 PM
I don't think it's firmware but want to rule it out.

having a strange issue where the right channel is way lower no matter what cables, caps, channels (happens on 2 and 4) Unfortunately I suspect the unit is defective.

Right channel is 10-15db lower on both channel 2&4 linked or not. Thought it was my nbobs or interconnects but it's not. Works perfect on original mp6. I swapped cables,caps etc to right and left and it doesn't follow. Stays on right channel being lower. And again on 2&4.  :banging head:



Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jbell on September 26, 2019, 06:15:12 PM
It's a sign!   :shrug:

I don't think it's firmware but want to rule it out.

having a strange issue where the right channel is way lower no matter what cables, caps, channels (happens on 2 and 4) Unfortunately I suspect the unit is defective.

Right channel is 10-15db lower on both channel 2&4 linked or not. Thought it was my nbobs or interconnects but it's not. Works perfect on original mp6. I swapped cables,caps etc to right and left and it doesn't follow. Stays on right channel being lower. And again on 2&4.  :banging head:
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 26, 2019, 06:33:13 PM
a sign that I'm fucking pissed!!   :angry3:
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jbell on September 26, 2019, 06:41:24 PM
Sorry man!! Totally sucks, but the original deck pulls great recordings.  Hope it gets resolved quickly.

a sign that I'm fucking pissed!!   :angry3:
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 26, 2019, 06:42:17 PM
Here is a dropbox link to the videos.  They are named to reflect channels and linked or not.  The last one is the same sample but with the original mixpre.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xk78vpfqcgc81gn/AACEzmVL7nMKKIc2_uvO0xqsa?dl=0




pic is channel stats in iZotope...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 27, 2019, 01:34:31 PM
 :banging head:

Quote
Thank you for contacting Sound Devices. Based on your troubleshooting and videos it looks like there is a hardware issue with your MixPre unit, which is rare to see on a new unit and we're sorry to see.

To get that resolved you have two options:

1 - Since you’re within the 30 days of purchasing the unit you can contact your reseller to return your unit and have them send you a replacement unit.

2 - We can set up paperwork for you to send the unit to us for repair. The repair would be covered under warranty.

No way I'm having them fix a brand new unit so returning to Vintage King.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on September 28, 2019, 07:23:42 AM
:banging head:
No way I'm having them fix a brand new unit so returning to Vintage King.

I would never have it repaired either!

When I first bought my MixPre-3 the faders did not align compared to the db levels. For example Ch1 had to be turned to 11.57 while the ch2 needed 12.02 for them both to show same numerical value.
It went back and I got a MixPre-6 instead which do show what it should at the same fader angles.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on September 28, 2019, 07:45:45 AM
I don't understand the head-banging, to be honest. From what's been posted here, SD determined there was an issue in less than 24 hours, offered their apologies, and said the faulty recorder could either be exchanged for a new one or repaired at the buyer's discretion. I know it is frustrating to get a defective item, but it's always a possibility with almost any purchase and SD's customer service seems to have done all that you could expect from them.

Personally, I would also prefer a replacement, but I'd note that there is a potential benefit to sending it in for repair, which is that they carefully test the whole system before they return it. Once, I returned a piece of gear due to a faulty jack and, when it came back, I noticed that there were a bunch of other items listed on the invoice, including replacement of the knobs. I e-mailed them to say that I had no problems with the knobs and was curious why they had been replaced. SD explained that they had to pull them off with pliers to open the chassis and they were scuffed up a bit by that, so they replaced them. I don't have a ton of experience with their customer service, but they have been great when I did use them...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on September 28, 2019, 09:17:10 AM
I don't understand the head-banging, to be honest.

I know it is frustrating to get a defective item

so you do understand the head-banging?  I had planned to run it this weekend and was really looking forward to it.  Oh well I'll have it for next weekend....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on September 28, 2019, 12:29:45 PM
^  No offense intended! I am no good at emojis; to me, that one looks more like “ragin’” than “Oh well I'll have it for next weekend”. Really, my point was that SD seems to be handling it promptly and satisfactorily. Enjoy the new recorder...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on October 03, 2019, 03:30:25 PM
replacement deck came and has been solid so far!  tested for about 2 hours yesterday and 4.5 so far today.  32/48 2 channels....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rippleish20 on October 03, 2019, 03:59:58 PM
While it's very true that problems can occur with almost any product and that they are responsive to issues, I do find it ironic how I frequently read negative comments about Zoom products - because SD is the "professional company" that makes rock solid products - and yet we seemingly end up with a stream of firmware and hardware issues. Gordon might be frustrated, for example, because he not only had an annoying firmware issue - with firmware that was "rigorously tested" and which they initially didnt admit had a problem - as well as a hardware problem now. If you are reading the SD FB group, others have had some interesting problems. I love the quality of my Mixpre-x recordings but am not so convinced the Mixpre-x series is in line with the traditional quality of SD products.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on October 03, 2019, 05:27:19 PM
^ As I am pretty sure that was directed at me, I'll just say that I haven't seen much criticism of Zoom since they started making real recorders (the F4/8). Maybe some skepticism at first, as they had to overcome their history of making cheap gear, but I think there are many supporters of those devices here. I don't think I have criticized Zoom personally. With respect to the Facebook page, I think there is a lot of bitching and moaning going on there, sometimes beyond the pale and, often, due to user error. As for SD, the firmware has not been particularly smooth, to be sure, but I have only heard of a few cases of hardware issues and SD have always corrected those quickly. In all honesty, I am still on 1.53. I keep telling myself before every recording opportunity that I should upgrade, but then I stick with 1.53 because I have never had any problems and figure "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I should probably update it, though...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rippleish20 on October 03, 2019, 05:49:11 PM
The Zoom comment was not a reference to comments by you at all.  There have been several bitch sessions about F series Zooms in the FB Taper Section group, primarily by people who hate Zoom no matter what the product is like. I owned and heavily used a F8 for a couple of years and now I own a 3.6 and 10T and have used the 6 heavily. I generally like both products but I can also see why Gordon was frustrated.

I have stuck with 1.53 on all my Mixpres.

There haven't been that many hardware issues as far as I know also, but one lucky guy apparently had trouble with both the series one and series two he purchased. Gordon has his hardware issue. I've read anecdotal reports of freezing from two other, reliable sources with II series (could be firmware however)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on October 03, 2019, 06:00:58 PM
The Zoom comment was not a reference to comments by you at all.  There have been several bitch sessions about F series Zooms in the FB Taper Section group, primarily by people who hate Zoom no matter what the product is like. I owned and heavily used a F8 for a couple of years and now I own a 3.6 and 10T and have used the 6 heavily. I generally like both products but I can also see why Gordon was frustrated.

I have stuck with 1.53 on all my Mixpres.

There haven't been that many hardware issues as far as I know also, but one lucky guy apparently had trouble with both the series one and series two he purchased. Gordon has his hardware issue. I've read anecdotal reports of freezing from two other, reliable sources with II series (could be firmware however)

4.01 froze up my first gen mixpre. first time id ever seen that

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on October 03, 2019, 06:23:04 PM
one lucky guy apparently had trouble with both the series one and series two he purchased.

I was following that thread and didn't he say both worked on AA but started having issues when using USB?  If so to me that points to a non compliant battery.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rippleish20 on October 03, 2019, 07:21:31 PM
one lucky guy apparently had trouble with both the series one and series two he purchased.

I was following that thread and didn't he say both worked on AA but started having issues when using USB?  If so to me that points to a non compliant battery.

I asked a series of questions, attempting to see if he was using one thing in both cases that might have been the problem but based on his answers, he wasn't and Paul concluded at least the problem with the II was a hardware problem. With the II he was using a SD AC adapter.  And he was using a USB-c based battery when he was using a battery with the first one. I think, as we've seen, trying to use a USB-a battery is error prone, but any reasonable USB-c battery should be ok. He indicated the wattage and it was well above the requirements. There did seem to be any common thing like power supply choice, firmware version ,etc. There are a lot of potential subtleties and it's possible there was a common thing wrong in both scenarios and he wasn't reflecting it well in his answers, but it did not appear so to me.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on October 04, 2019, 06:23:34 AM
As I’m not using Facebook.
Would you be able to describe what kind of problems those in the group are experienceing?


If you are reading the SD FB group, others have had some interesting problems. I love the quality of my Mixpre-x recordings but am not so convinced the Mixpre-x series is in line with the traditional quality of SD products.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on October 04, 2019, 07:50:07 AM
I have stuck with 1.53 on all my Mixpres.

It's good to hear that I am not the only Luddite to stick with the venerable 1.53! After that update, I took a "wait and see" approach before installing another. The updates kept coming, so the "wait and see" period just never ended. I guess I will update when the next really stable release comes out...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on October 04, 2019, 09:08:26 AM
As I’m not using Facebook.
Would you be able to describe what kind of problems those in the group are experienceing?


If you are reading the SD FB group, others have had some interesting problems. I love the quality of my Mixpre-x recordings but am not so convinced the Mixpre-x series is in line with the traditional quality of SD products.

lots of folks with lockups and issues powering down because they didn't wait for the "copy to usb" to finish.  that is more user error than anything else. well they didn't realize it was still copying and tried to power down.

I just scrolled through a lot of post and besides my issue and the one Alan mentioned the only issue I saw was the above usb copy thing.  Believe it or not I didn't see any regarding SD write failures though I know there were in the past and most involved preroll.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on October 04, 2019, 09:09:56 AM
I have stuck with 1.53 on all my Mixpres.

It's good to hear that I am not the only Luddite to stick with the venerable 1.53! After that update, I took a "wait and see" approach before installing another. The updates kept coming, so the "wait and see" period just never ended. I guess I will update when the next really stable release comes out...

2.21 was solid.  I moved to 3.02 to fix the headphone preset issue and have had zero issues wtih it.  New mixpre 6 II came with 4.0 and I'll stick to it for now.  Tested 7 hrs yesterday without issue.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rippleish20 on October 04, 2019, 09:45:00 AM
As I’m not using Facebook.
Would you be able to describe what kind of problems those in the group are experienceing?


If you are reading the SD FB group, others have had some interesting problems. I love the quality of my Mixpre-x recordings but am not so convinced the Mixpre-x series is in line with the traditional quality of SD products.


People obviously go to support forums to talk about problems they are having so a lot of it is normal confusion. There are endless threads about using USB-A cables/batteries, etc. The auto backup to USB of files also causes lots of confusion - people turn off their device and can't understand why it doesnt power down. But I have seen reports of several people seeing their devices freeze during recording and it's hard to tell if it's version two or firmware 4.01 issues. Pre-roll related issues are common, even with "fixed" firmware. One recent thread from a guy in Germany was "interesting". He bought a version one Mixpre-x and he indicated it worked ok for a while but then started locking up. He returned it and they gave him a new, version two device and he really had problems with that one. He was using the SD AC power supply and it would lock up, flash colors on startup, with or without a SD card, freeze while recording, and eventually just stopped powering up. He generally seemed to be doing reasonable things in usage power wise, etc and, at least based on his responses, there was no one thing he did wrong with both devices, but having trouble with two devices seemed odd. I have been reading the Zoom F* and Mixpre-x* threads for a while and, while people ave trouble with both sets of devices (the F* had had "white screen" issues in the past), the Mixpre-x's firmware updates sure seem to have more than their fair share of issues.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dallman on October 04, 2019, 10:57:17 AM
With any new deck that has multiple features and multiple ways of doing various functions there is a learning curve. I find all my problems are user error, but I try to experiment all the time with menus and features as this teaches me and allows me to get comfortable with each deck. (Unfortunately I am at an age though where it is easy to forget when I do not use a deck for a while  ;D)

The up side is that I do get very comfortable with using each deck and it's features and I find the way that I like best for settings and how I will use the deck. I have not had any problems with 4.01 firmware nor any of the earlier firmwares and I think 4.01 is way better than any of the earlier firmwares, but everyone should do what they like best. I usually record 6 mics on my MixPre6 and now MixPre6II, but I record at 24/48 and now 32/48 and that sounds great to me. I mostly use Sony and Fuji 128GB cards and a few 64 gb San Disc too and have never had an issue.

There is always a risk that a new firmware will have a glitch though, but usually I am willing, sometrimes I might wait a week or two and listen to what if any complaints arise.

Regarding the USB backup feature...In my opinion this may be good for a film person or a person working long hours in the field, but for me recording shows, it is not useful. The backup is slow, it takes a very long time to copy a 6 mic 75 minute set which at 32 bit float with sampling at 48kHz is often 2 files, a great deal of data. There is no way it will copy the entire first set in the break between sets and of course no chance for copying the 2nd set before I break down (or multiple bands with even more sets).

I have never had a card failure in, so the backup would be nice, but not anything I need. It turns out that it is much easier to go home throw the card onto my PC and back it up that way. It takes a few minutes and flies through the data transfer.

I have not experienced a lockup or inability to turn off my deck while it was attempting to transfer, but I did get a 0 kb file until I asked SD about it and got their instructions and tried the backup at home. Like I said it is slow, so I will not use it, but I think it very likely that many of the issues and lockups could be from having the copy feature enabled. It is just one example of where not fully understanding the deck or the settings chosen can seriously affect the outcome.

That is one of the reasons we have these threads, so we can all learn form each others mistakes.  :cheers:
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on October 04, 2019, 11:10:08 AM
agree that the usb backup is of no use to us.  would be if it were actual dual record but as it is I won't be using it.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on October 04, 2019, 10:13:55 PM
I see.
Thanks for sharing some the user group trouble discussion.
Sound like an ordinary blend of user failures, misunderstandings and hardware/software troubles.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 04, 2019, 10:57:13 PM
agree that the usb backup is of no use to us.  would be if it were actual dual record but as it is I won't be using it.

It's helpful to me.  The SD card is under the sled, whether you use AAs or the NP sled.  It is a pain to get the sled off and on, and I worry about the plastic or contacts breaking.  I use a 128 GB thumb drive, usually the yellow warning light switches off while I break down and stow my setup, then I stick the thumb drive directly into my computer USB to download the files.

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on October 04, 2019, 11:23:59 PM
As I’m not using Facebook.
Would you be able to describe what kind of problems those in the group are experienceing?


If you are reading the SD FB group, others have had some interesting problems. I love the quality of my Mixpre-x recordings but am not so convinced the Mixpre-x series is in line with the traditional quality of SD products.

lots of folks with lockups and issues powering down because they didn't wait for the "copy to usb" to finish.  that is more user error than anything else. well they didn't realize it was still copying and tried to power down.


4.01 locked up my series1 mixpre, which doesnt offer 'copy to usb' feature
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on October 05, 2019, 12:14:07 AM
agree that the usb backup is of no use to us.  would be if it were actual dual record but as it is I won't be using it.

It's helpful to me.  The SD card is under the sled, whether you use AAs or the NP sled.  It is a pain to get the sled off and on, and I worry about the plastic or contacts breaking.  I use a 128 GB thumb drive, usually the yellow warning light switches off while I break down and stow my setup, then I stick the thumb drive directly into my computer USB to download the files.

Jeff
Why not just transfer via USB C? Or c to a etc? No need to take the card out to get the files on your computer.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on October 05, 2019, 08:51:21 AM
I read somewhere that a MixPre-6 II user thought that the preamps were superior to his original MixPre-6 preamps. I know SD says the preamps are identical but I wondered if anyone with experience of both units agrees with that user’s assessment.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on October 05, 2019, 01:49:46 PM
I read somewhere that a MixPre-6 II user thought that the preamps were superior to his original MixPre-6 preamps. I know SD says the preamps are identical but I wondered if anyone with experience of both units agrees with that user’s assessment.
i think they have a slight improvement on noise floor but i believe they still advertise them as Kashmir so probably similar in character
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rippleish20 on October 05, 2019, 02:06:25 PM
"How do the MixPre II mic preamps compare to the original MixPre series?

The new MixPre II models, like the original MixPre-3, MixPre-6, and MixPre-10T recorders, offer the same discrete class-A Kashmir microphone preamplifiers with an exceptionally low noise-floor regardless of the gain setting. "

There is no evidence that there is *any* difference.

Mixpre-6

Kashmir microphone preamp with 76 db gain
Equivalent input noise: -128 dBu max (A-weighting, gain=76 dB, 150 ohm source impedance)

Mixpre-6 II
Kashmir microphone preamp with 76db gain
equivalent Input Noise: 128dBu max (A-weighting, gain=76dB, 150 Ohms source impedance);
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on October 05, 2019, 05:25:25 PM

Why not just transfer via USB C? Or c to a etc? No need to take the card out to get the files on your computer.
The USB-C connector rating is for 10,000 insertion cycles. Don't want to wear out the port!?
https://www.anandtech.com/show/8377/usb-typec-connector-specifications-finalized


"Durability of 10,000 connect-disconnect cycles"
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rippleish20 on October 06, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
Interesting review of II series and a small comparison to F6.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lRVnMO14k8&feature=youtu.be

Subjective but interesting comments:

1) Finds Mixpre II recordings slightly warmer than F6

2) See slight differences in sound based on recording level. The implication is that the 32 bit float allows you to correct in post but maybe recording at a higher gain level to begin with is desirable. I find this interesting personally. Despite suggestions that one can record at conservative levels with devices that have such low noise levels, I continue to record at a fairly high gain as I wonder if it still affects the end result. I find recordings at 24 bit that are subsequently normalized or amplified different than if they are recorded at a high gain and not manipulated. I could be imagining things, howver...

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on October 06, 2019, 01:07:17 PM
would make an interesting controlled AB comp
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on October 06, 2019, 01:30:40 PM
Ran mine in the wild last night and it's nice to just let it run and not worry about the occasional red! On the board feed the announcements clipped to like +15db and it sounds perfect when dropped down.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on October 07, 2019, 12:12:38 AM
Subjective but interesting comments:

1) Finds Mixpre II recordings slightly warmer than F6

I'm not surprised about that. They are said to both use the same preamps as their predecessors and they had the same differences.
I thought it was quite easy to spot a MixPre in a AB test with the Zoom due to the slightly warmer or increased lower end.

Now I want to see all others releasing or adding 32-bit float to their range of recorders. :)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on October 07, 2019, 02:41:28 AM
Interesting review of II series and a small comparison to F6.

2) See slight differences in sound based on recording level. The implication is that the 32 bit float allows you to correct in post but maybe recording at a higher gain level to begin with is desirable. I find this interesting personally. Despite suggestions that one can record at conservative levels with devices that have such low noise levels, I continue to record at a fairly high gain as I wonder if it still affects the end result. I find recordings at 24 bit that are subsequently normalized or amplified different than if they are recorded at a high gain and not manipulated. I could be imagining things, howver...

It’s true. Use all the bits. Been saying this here for years. That’s what makes 32 bit so desirable imo.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on October 07, 2019, 03:05:46 AM
Interesting review of II series and a small comparison to F6.

2) See slight differences in sound based on recording level. The implication is that the 32 bit float allows you to correct in post but maybe recording at a higher gain level to begin with is desirable. I find this interesting personally. Despite suggestions that one can record at conservative levels with devices that have such low noise levels, I continue to record at a fairly high gain as I wonder if it still affects the end result. I find recordings at 24 bit that are subsequently normalized or amplified different than if they are recorded at a high gain and not manipulated. I could be imagining things, howver...

It’s true. Use all the bits. Been saying this here for years. That’s what makes 32 bit so desirable imo.

this is kinda where 32bit float wins

if youre trying to "use all the bits" with fixed point,the results of going over are disastrous

with floating point, its inconsequential
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on October 07, 2019, 06:30:40 PM
Interesting review of II series and a small comparison to F6.

2) See slight differences in sound based on recording level. The implication is that the 32 bit float allows you to correct in post but maybe recording at a higher gain level to begin with is desirable. I find this interesting personally. Despite suggestions that one can record at conservative levels with devices that have such low noise levels, I continue to record at a fairly high gain as I wonder if it still affects the end result. I find recordings at 24 bit that are subsequently normalized or amplified different than if they are recorded at a high gain and not manipulated. I could be imagining things, howver...

It’s true. Use all the bits. Been saying this here for years. That’s what makes 32 bit so desirable imo.

this is kinda where 32bit float wins

if youre trying to "use all the bits" with fixed point,the results of going over are disastrous

with floating point, its inconsequential

One should also keep in mind that certain ADC chips perform better at certain bit depths and/or sample rates than they do at others.  I remember back when DSD was all the rage, and quite a number of people said they were hearing better quality compared to high-rate PCM recorded on the same units.  Come to find out that when you measure these units, many of them were under-performing with PCM data.  I wish I could find where I read this.  Then there's the whole issue about which digital filters are applied, etc.

The point is, designers make compromises to meet a price point or other constraints.  You shouldn't expect a reasonably-priced unit to be equally good at everything, much as we would want it to be.  Perhaps these AKM chips are happiest when doing 32-bit.  Until someone with an Audio Precision analyzer puts these units through their paces, it's hard to say.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: yug du nord on October 07, 2019, 06:49:59 PM
IMO..  dithering is a compromise so that people can easily listen.
If 16bit is your goal, I personally think a 16bit recorder would give you the best finished product.
If 24bit is your goal, same said for a 24bit recorder.
I haven't touched a 32bit recorder, but my assumption is the same.

But I honestly am a caveman, so YMMV.

...but the no need for level adjustment in 32bit float is pretty friggin wild. 
I wonder if the same is true (or possible) in Soundforge DAW..  it converts to 32bit float.  Not sure if you could straight up record in 32bit float though.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on October 07, 2019, 10:48:56 PM
IMO..  dithering is a compromise so that people can easily listen.
If 16bit is your goal, I personally think a 16bit recorder would give you the best finished product.
If 24bit is your goal, same said for a 24bit recorder.
I haven't touched a 32bit recorder, but my assumption is the same.

Sorry but I must disagree.. on both points

First of all dithering is not a compromise.  It is the correct standard procedure which should be applied whenever truncating from a higher bit depth to a lower one.  The alternative is to simply truncate without dithering which produces quantization artifacts.  Granted that may be inaudible in many cases, but it is not the correct way to do it.  Perhaps you meant the reduction of bit depth in general (which is done correctly by applying dither first) from 24 to 16 bits or whatever, rather than dithering.

But I have to disagree there as well.   As long as the total dynamic range of the program material fits within the delivery container, no additional bits are needed.  They will contain only random values below the bottom of the actual range (noise) and/or zeros (silence) above the top of the actual range.  Those extra bits contain nothing of value, they are wasted.

Extended dynamic range is beneficial when recording and processing. Once those processes are complete and the total dynamic range of the audio file can be easily determined and will not change, there is no harm in throwing away the excess bit which contain no useful information.. assuming it is done properly.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on October 08, 2019, 06:46:28 AM
 :help:
IMO..  dithering is a compromise so that people can easily listen.
If 16bit is your goal, I personally think a 16bit recorder would give you the best finished product.
If 24bit is your goal, same said for a 24bit recorder.
I haven't touched a 32bit recorder, but my assumption is the same.

Sorry but I must disagree.. on both points

First of all dithering is not a compromise.  It is the correct standard procedure which should be applied whenever truncating from a higher bit depth to a lower one.  The alternative is to simply truncate without dithering which produces quantization artifacts.  Granted that may be inaudible in many cases, but it is not the correct way to do it.  Perhaps you meant the reduction of bit depth in general (which is done correctly by applying dither first) from 24 to 16 bits or whatever, rather than dithering.

But I have to disagree there as well.   As long as the total dynamic range of the program material fits within the delivery container, no additional bits are needed.  They will contain only random values below the bottom of the actual range (noise) and/or zeros (silence) above the top of the actual range.  Those extra bits contain nothing of value, they are wasted.

Extended dynamic range is beneficial when recording and processing. Once those processes are complete and the total dynamic range of the audio file can be easily determined and will not change, there is no harm in throwing away the excess bit which contain no useful information.. assuming it is done properly.

+1 to all of this. ^^^


In a similar (but different) vein:

I always question the use of super-high sampling rates with program material that has no high frequency information anywhere near the Nyquist frequency (1/2 the sample rate).  I have found this more than once with high-res FLACs purchased from certain online stores, especially with reissues / remasters of vintage jazz albums.  For example, there was one album that was sold in 24bit/192kHz.  Looking at the spectrogram, there was no HF information above 35-40 kHz (cymbal hits) save for some steady-state noise.  That means they could have delivered the files in 88.2 kHz, and it would have been more than adequate.

The common thread here is that you should use all available resources to get the best results, but there is no sense putting everything in a huge container when a smaller one would do an equally good job.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on October 08, 2019, 07:40:21 AM
^ Even 88.2 kHz is probably overkill, assuming proper filtering. Unless you are recording for a specialized purpose which requires ultrasonic frequencies, there really isn't much reason to record them...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on October 08, 2019, 05:01:04 PM
^ Even 88.2 kHz is probably overkill, assuming proper filtering. Unless you are recording for a specialized purpose which requires ultrasonic frequencies, there really isn't much reason to record them...

A lot of the classical releases on HDTracks, Qobuz, Pro Studio Masters, etc. are released at 88.2 kHz, and more often 96 kHz.  I think those sample rates have their place in modern recordings, using mics with extended frequency responses.  Consonants in choral recordings, cymbal hits, triangles, etc. have information up to the 40 kHz range.  Of course, we can't hear those frequencies, but we can hear the resultant frequencies as they interfere with other things, and that may add to a realistic presentation.  (Debatable, of course.)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on October 09, 2019, 09:28:13 AM
^ Personally, I think that's mostly marketing. Many mics don't have extended response, nor do many speakers or headphones.

At any rate, if ultrasonic content is interacting with stuff in the audible range, those changes can be recorded solely by recording that audible range. I have quoted this before, but as Dan Lavry puts it:

Quote from: Dan Lavry
It has been well documented that acoustic musical instruments generate energy at frequencies far above audibility. In the performance space (before any recording takes place), if there is any mechanism that enable ultrasonic frequencies to impact what we hear, it would require energy transfer from ultrasonic frequencies to the audible range. Therefore, using microphones and gear that cover what we hear enables us to capture and keep ALL the energy we need. We can store it, convert it and at some point play back all that we need. There is no good reason for keeping what we don’t hear, because everything we heard in the original performance is already there.   
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on October 09, 2019, 06:53:28 PM
^ Personally, I think that's mostly marketing. Many mics don't have extended response, nor do many speakers or headphones.

At any rate, if ultrasonic content is interacting with stuff in the audible range, those changes can be recorded solely by recording that audible range. I have quoted this before, but as Dan Lavry puts it:

Quote from: Dan Lavry
It has been well documented that acoustic musical instruments generate energy at frequencies far above audibility. In the performance space (before any recording takes place), if there is any mechanism that enable ultrasonic frequencies to impact what we hear, it would require energy transfer from ultrasonic frequencies to the audible range. Therefore, using microphones and gear that cover what we hear enables us to capture and keep ALL the energy we need. We can store it, convert it and at some point play back all that we need. There is no good reason for keeping what we don’t hear, because everything we heard in the original performance is already there.   

Hmm.  That's so simple that it makes perfect sense!  :facepalm:

The only possible exception is infrasonic frequencies we feel, which are usually expensive to reproduce in playback anyway.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on October 10, 2019, 04:00:44 AM
^ Occam's Razor and whatnot! Personally, I have found Lavry's white papers to be very compelling (although not always easy).

I have seen a few articles about feeling ultrasonics; the most convincing evidence was for direct bone conduction. My Dynaudios definitely don't do that (thankfully)!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Charlie Miller on October 20, 2019, 01:51:09 PM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on October 20, 2019, 04:06:58 PM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??

I love mine!  as you know there's no digi out but I don't need that anyway.  small, light, great pre's, 32bit float, what's not to love?!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DATBRAD on October 21, 2019, 07:17:57 AM
Charlie, unless your 744T is acting up or you really need more than 4 channels, I think you should stick with it. One of these Mixpre models might be the right choice for replacing your 744T when it kicks the bucket, or if you are looking for it's direct decendent, consider the new pro model 833, it looks amazing on paper. Also you may still need the digital input on the 744T so you can transfer GD SBD DAT sources (if there are any left you haven't already archived, ;)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dallman on October 21, 2019, 11:21:36 AM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??
If you worry about or ever have issues with your levels, then this is a deck to consider. The 744 is a great deck and will make great recordings. They both are outstanding. Does the 744 have any features (digi in comes to mind) that you use and need that the MixPre6II does not have?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Charlie Miller on October 21, 2019, 11:54:44 AM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??
If you worry about or ever have issues with your levels, then this is a deck to consider. The 744 is a great deck and will make great recordings. They both are outstanding. Does the 744 have any features (digi in comes to mind) that you use and need that the MixPre6II does not have?


I often use the different outputs on the 744 to send different feeds/mixes. It looks like the 833 is what I need since I can’t afford the Scorpio.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dallman on October 21, 2019, 12:13:29 PM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??
If you worry about or ever have issues with your levels, then this is a deck to consider. The 744 is a great deck and will make great recordings. They both are outstanding. Does the 744 have any features (digi in comes to mind) that you use and need that the MixPre6II does not have?


That could be a problem but I do not pay much attention top output routing. I would send a question to Sound Devices as I know there (or I think) there is multiple output functionality through USB. Will that work for your situation? They'd know best and for me they have been great on responses to questions.

I often use the different outputs on the 744 to send different feeds/mixes.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: shijan on October 31, 2019, 06:02:09 AM
Played with MixPre-3 II few hours yesterday evening and here are some quick  personal critical impressions:

The biggest problem for me was get AA batteries out of sled. Not too user friendly design. The solution - place thin ribbon under the batteries. This usually helps in similar situations to get out batteries from holders.
AA batteries is a total shame. Instead of 4xAA they could design sled with SINGLE 18650 li-ion  battery and it will produced same Wh capacity.
Battery sled may looks thin, but subjectively seems it is not cheap ABS plastic. It feels like made of Polyamide or similar heavy duty heat resistant Nylon-like industrial material.

XLR lock handles are very tiny and with sharp edges. Not too comfortable to press. Sort of idiotic design way to fit everything inside slim size to provide 5mm less body thickness.

As expected, preamps sounds slightly different between MixPre and MixPre-3 II because transformers technology is very different between them.
As expected, when you plug MixPre out to MixPre-3 II Aux line in, and record with 32 bit mode, you can not recover similar ultra wide dynamic range clipped data as from native MixPre-3 II peamps recording. But it is still better than 24 bit recording because MixPre still allow to recover very tiny amount of clipped data. MixPre was calibrated with 20db tone signal and tested with limiters turned OFF.

Until you create Presets for different connections it is impossible to switch things and setups as fast and intuitive as with MixPre physical buttons.

For some reason "switch to USB files transfer mode" hidden too deep. You need too many clicks inside menu every time when you connect it to computer and want to transfer files.

Faders knobs rotate very smooth and well damped. Input gain faders are fully digital, so they can not change input gain in real time with same smoothness as analogue MixPre faders. When switched to final mix volume control mode, they probably provide more smoothness but i don't tested it yet.

Вespite all this MixPre-3/6 II is a great tool and no any real alternative to it.

(https://i.imgur.com/u0mRlyx.jpg)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on November 04, 2019, 07:37:52 AM
Looking to get the 10 II and trying to price out selling some gear and acquiring new.  I'm assuming 9v dvd batteries won't do the trick.  What's the best way to power this bad boy?  Rechargeable AA's or outside power?  It comes with a AA sled, right?  I'm only looking to run it for about 6 hours with 6 mics.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Ronmac on November 04, 2019, 09:09:28 AM
The MixPre10 is a very power hungry device. The linked video and SD PDF are worth exploring for options.

https://cdn.sounddevices.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/MixPreII9.12.19.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a_AP9JbgJg
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on November 04, 2019, 10:19:46 AM
Looking to get the 10 II and trying to price out selling some gear and acquiring new.  I'm assuming 9v dvd batteries won't do the trick.  What's the best way to power this bad boy?  Rechargeable AA's or outside power?  It comes with a AA sled, right?  I'm only looking to run it for about 6 hours with 6 mics.

Best way to power it is with an inexpensive usb-c battery.
Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/RAVPower-Portable-Qualcomm-20100mAh-Nintendo/dp/B019IFIJW8/ref=sr_1_3?crid=32SLYFUBQIND9&keywords=usb-c+battery+pack&qid=1572880737&sprefix=usb-c+batt%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-3
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Brian G on November 04, 2019, 10:47:48 AM
Looking to get the 10 II and trying to price out selling some gear and acquiring new.  I'm assuming 9v dvd batteries won't do the trick.  What's the best way to power this bad boy?  Rechargeable AA's or outside power?  It comes with a AA sled, right?  I'm only looking to run it for about 6 hours with 6 mics.

Best way to power it is with an inexpensive usb-c battery.
Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/RAVPower-Portable-Qualcomm-20100mAh-Nintendo/dp/B019IFIJW8/ref=sr_1_3?crid=32SLYFUBQIND9&keywords=usb-c+battery+pack&qid=1572880737&sprefix=usb-c+batt%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-3

That wont work for the 10II... You need something like the Talentcell.

https://www.amazon.com/TalentCell-Rechargeable-11000mAh-20000mAh-Portable/dp/B01337QXMA/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=370TTC7IH5TBV&keywords=talentcell+rechargeable+12v&qid=1572882374&sprefix=talent%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyS05RNEhHMzVINU4wJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjE2NzM0RjA4WktLQjhKUkNJJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0ODQ2MjUyOUtaV1JOQlVYREQ0JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Ronmac on November 04, 2019, 03:41:17 PM
MIXPRE-3 II AND MIXPRE-6 II POWER OPTIONS
1. Included MX-PSU AC wall adapter to USB-C power supply.
2. Four AA batteries installed in the included MX-4AA Battery Sled.
3. Eight AA batteries installed in the optional MX-8AA Battery Sled
accessory.
4. One or two Sony-type L-Mount batteries installed in the optional
MX-LMount battery sled accessory.
5. USB-C to USB-C cable (included) connected to a USB-C host
computer or AC wall adapter.
6. USB-A to USB-C cable connected to a USB-A host computer or
AC wall adapter. The unit will enter a low power state and some
functionality will be limited with this power option.
7. MX-USBY Dual USB-A to USB-C optional accessory
cable connected to a USB-A host computer. Use this
cable option if your computer is unable to provide
adequate power with only one USB-A port.


MIXPRE-10 II POWER OPTIONS
1. Included XL-WPH3 AC to DC 12 V Power supply with 4-pin Hirose.
2. Eight AA batteries installed in the included MX-8AA Battery Sled.
3. One or two Sony-type L-Mount batteries installed in the optional
MX-LMount battery sled accessory


OR

Watch the previously linked video for other Hirose connection options.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on November 07, 2019, 08:09:19 PM
This looks like a good deal. Anyone know if this card works?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on November 08, 2019, 08:44:33 PM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??

I am currently wrestling with the idea of selling my MixPre-6 1st gen and buying a used 722 or 744t.

A previous post described the MixPre sound as “warm” compared to an F6. I find further that my recordings lack detail compared to ones using the same mics, same source but different preamps. The MixPre-6 recordings are “smooth” and “velvet” but I want clarity and edges.

Would the preamps in the 722 or 744t be more likely to give me that?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on November 09, 2019, 02:32:52 AM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??

I am currently wrestling with the idea of selling my MixPre-6 1st gen and buying a used 722 or 744t.

A previous post described the MixPre sound as “warm” compared to an F6. I find further that my recordings lack detail compared to ones using the same mics, same source but different preamps. The MixPre-6 recordings are “smooth” and “velvet” but I want clarity and edges.

Would the preamps in the 722 or 744t be more likely to give me that?

why dont you guys trade up gear and try it out?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on November 09, 2019, 08:41:14 AM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??

I am currently wrestling with the idea of selling my MixPre-6 1st gen and buying a used 722 or 744t.

A previous post described the MixPre sound as “warm” compared to an F6. I find further that my recordings lack detail compared to ones using the same mics, same source but different preamps. The MixPre-6 recordings are “smooth” and “velvet” but I want clarity and edges.

Would the preamps in the 722 or 744t be more likely to give me that?

why dont you guys trade up gear and try it out?

It’s a logical idea, although I’m in Canada which may complicate the temporary trade with customs duty and taxes.

Plus I have a lead on a pretty good deal for a 722. Unfortunately I can’t test it before buying.

I was hoping there was someone here who has used both a 722/744 and the MixPre 3/6 units and could say if there is more clarity with the older 7xx series.

My SD USBPre 2 gives me more of the detail the MixPre’s lack to my ears. Apparently the analog front end and the A/D are the same in the USBPre 2 as the 722/744 but with less dynamic range. So a 722 could be just the ticket.

Sorry to hijack this thread but since the “warm” sound of the MixPre was mentioned, and the 744t owner brought up that question, it seemed the best place to ask.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: darby on November 09, 2019, 09:22:16 AM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??

I am currently wrestling with the idea of selling my MixPre-6 1st gen and buying a used 722 or 744t.

A previous post described the MixPre sound as “warm” compared to an F6. I find further that my recordings lack detail compared to ones using the same mics, same source but different preamps. The MixPre-6 recordings are “smooth” and “velvet” but I want clarity and edges.

Would the preamps in the 722 or 744t be more likely to give me that?

why dont you guys trade up gear and try it out?

It’s a logical idea, although I’m in Canada which may complicate the temporary trade with customs duty and taxes.

Plus I have a lead on a pretty good deal for a 722. Unfortunately I can’t test it before buying.

I was hoping there was someone here who has used both a 722/744 and the MixPre 3/6 units and could say if there is more clarity with the older 7xx series.

My SD USBPre 2 gives me more of the detail the MixPre’s lack to my ears. Apparently the analog front end and the A/D are the same in the USBPre 2 as the 722/744 but with less dynamic range. So a 722 could be just the ticket.

Sorry to hijack this thread but since the “warm” sound of the MixPre was mentioned, and the 744t owner brought up that question, it seemed the best place to ask.

I have used all the preamps mentioned:

7xx and USBPre 2 have what I consider the same sound, which has more detail even when used with it's limiters.

MixPre-3/6, when used with it's limiters has what you describe as a smooth sound.

MixPre-3/6 II has the benefit of not using limiters in 32 bit float mode and has more of the detail you desire.

If you want opinions... I say get a MixPre-6 II
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on November 09, 2019, 10:40:21 AM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??

I am currently wrestling with the idea of selling my MixPre-6 1st gen and buying a used 722 or 744t.

A previous post described the MixPre sound as “warm” compared to an F6. I find further that my recordings lack detail compared to ones using the same mics, same source but different preamps. The MixPre-6 recordings are “smooth” and “velvet” but I want clarity and edges.

Would the preamps in the 722 or 744t be more likely to give me that?

why dont you guys trade up gear and try it out?

It’s a logical idea, although I’m in Canada which may complicate the temporary trade with customs duty and taxes.

Plus I have a lead on a pretty good deal for a 722. Unfortunately I can’t test it before buying.

I was hoping there was someone here who has used both a 722/744 and the MixPre 3/6 units and could say if there is more clarity with the older 7xx series.

My SD USBPre 2 gives me more of the detail the MixPre’s lack to my ears. Apparently the analog front end and the A/D are the same in the USBPre 2 as the 722/744 but with less dynamic range. So a 722 could be just the ticket.

Sorry to hijack this thread but since the “warm” sound of the MixPre was mentioned, and the 744t owner brought up that question, it seemed the best place to ask.

I have used all the preamps mentioned:

7xx and USBPre 2 have what I consider the same sound, which has more detail even when used with it's limiters.

MixPre-3/6, when used with it's limiters has what you describe as a smooth sound.

MixPre-3/6 II has the benefit of not using limiters in 32 bit float mode and has more of the detail you desire.

If you want opinions... I say get a MixPre-6 II

That’s great information. Thanks!

I was thinking of getting the MixPre 3 II but figured it would sound just as muffled as I hear the MixPre 1st gen to be.

Do you feel the reproduction of detail on the 2nd gen MixPre in 32 bit float is equal to the 7xx series?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: ero3030 on November 09, 2019, 10:58:41 AM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??

I am currently wrestling with the idea of selling my MixPre-6 1st gen and buying a used 722 or 744t.

A previous post described the MixPre sound as “warm” compared to an F6. I find further that my recordings lack detail compared to ones using the same mics, same source but different preamps. The MixPre-6 recordings are “smooth” and “velvet” but I want clarity and edges.

Would the preamps in the 722 or 744t be more likely to give me that?

why dont you guys trade up gear and try it out?

It’s a logical idea, although I’m in Canada which may complicate the temporary trade with customs duty and taxes.

Plus I have a lead on a pretty good deal for a 722. Unfortunately I can’t test it before buying.

I was hoping there was someone here who has used both a 722/744 and the MixPre 3/6 units and could say if there is more clarity with the older 7xx series.

My SD USBPre 2 gives me more of the detail the MixPre’s lack to my ears. Apparently the analog front end and the A/D are the same in the USBPre 2 as the 722/744 but with less dynamic range. So a 722 could be just the ticket.

Sorry to hijack this thread but since the “warm” sound of the MixPre was mentioned, and the 744t owner brought up that question, it seemed the best place to ask.

I have used all the preamps mentioned:

7xx and USBPre 2 have what I consider the same sound, which has more detail even when used with it's limiters.

MixPre-3/6, when used with it's limiters has what you describe as a smooth sound.

MixPre-3/6 II has the benefit of not using limiters in 32 bit float mode and has more of the detail you desire.

If you want opinions... I say get a MixPre-6 II

That’s great information. Thanks!

I was thinking of getting the MixPre 3 II but figured it would sound just as muffled as I hear the MixPre 1st gen to be.

Do you feel the reproduction of detail on the 2nd gen MixPre in 32 bit float is equal to the 7xx series?

I'm not a SD fluffer but " muffled" sound from your mixpre3?
Sounds likea it's your mics u r not liking
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on November 09, 2019, 12:31:24 PM
should I sell my 744 and get a MixPre 6 ii ??

Any thoughts?? Opinions ??

I am currently wrestling with the idea of selling my MixPre-6 1st gen and buying a used 722 or 744t.

A previous post described the MixPre sound as “warm” compared to an F6. I find further that my recordings lack detail compared to ones using the same mics, same source but different preamps. The MixPre-6 recordings are “smooth” and “velvet” but I want clarity and edges.

Would the preamps in the 722 or 744t be more likely to give me that?

why dont you guys trade up gear and try it out?

It’s a logical idea, although I’m in Canada which may complicate the temporary trade with customs duty and taxes.

Plus I have a lead on a pretty good deal for a 722. Unfortunately I can’t test it before buying.

I was hoping there was someone here who has used both a 722/744 and the MixPre 3/6 units and could say if there is more clarity with the older 7xx series.

My SD USBPre 2 gives me more of the detail the MixPre’s lack to my ears. Apparently the analog front end and the A/D are the same in the USBPre 2 as the 722/744 but with less dynamic range. So a 722 could be just the ticket.

Sorry to hijack this thread but since the “warm” sound of the MixPre was mentioned, and the 744t owner brought up that question, it seemed the best place to ask.

I have used all the preamps mentioned:

7xx and USBPre 2 have what I consider the same sound, which has more detail even when used with it's limiters.

MixPre-3/6, when used with it's limiters has what you describe as a smooth sound.

MixPre-3/6 II has the benefit of not using limiters in 32 bit float mode and has more of the detail you desire.

If you want opinions... I say get a MixPre-6 II

That’s great information. Thanks!

I was thinking of getting the MixPre 3 II but figured it would sound just as muffled as I hear the MixPre 1st gen to be.

Do you feel the reproduction of detail on the 2nd gen MixPre in 32 bit float is equal to the 7xx series?

I'm not a SD fluffer but " muffled" sound from your mixpre3?
Sounds likea it's your mics u r not liking

The mics (AT4022’s) sound fine with the USBPre 2. Perhaps “muffled” is a bit extreme. Just too velvety for the source (trains, nature). Probably better with music and voice.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on November 09, 2019, 03:49:53 PM
this is an aside, but last summer before i got a mixpre i was lined up to buy a friends 744.  it always worked perfectly for him but he insisted on sending it in to have sound devices go over it to make sure it was operating to spec. I couldn’t believe the repair price tag on it they wanted to replace the caps and other things as well. I’ll try to dig up the estimate and list the items. We kinda take for granted with all the gear we trade around, that everything is solid-state and operates as it was originally designed. But just some food for thought, at least sound devices said the older, apparently perfectly working, 744 was not operating to their desired spec. And out of warranty service because of something you probably don’t want to mess with. Unless you have a specific need for features
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: shijan on November 09, 2019, 05:12:29 PM
I done only very few subjective tests with MixPre vs MixPre 3 II (mostly tested line-in) before send back MixPre 3 II to reseller for replacement due hardware factory defect in line/headphones-out. But here are my secondary impressions:

First i tested MixPre connected to Edirol R09HR line in and compare MixPre 3 II.
And next i tested MixPre 3 II preamps.

Old MixPre with its analog limiters can produce very pleasant "warm" "well compressed" sound without any additional adjustment. Its low cut filter looks different when you start to look at sound spectre image. It still need come compressor/saturator to slightly boost sound, because 24 bit recordings are usually recorded at low levels to avoid clipping.
Old MixPre use stepless analog pots, and so you can adjust volume in real time very smoothly if needed.

Overall MixPre+R09HR (based on Wolfson WM8786 A/D chip) is actually holds very well. In high frequencies range R09HR line-in appears slightly less noisier than MixPre-3II line-in. But that difference is tiny and only visible if in post boost ultra quiet levels to extreme +24db.
Probably more noise in high frequency is the payment for wide dynamic range multiple combined A/D converters design. (but i really need to redo those tests again with new unit)

MixPre 3 II is sort of more perfect digital clinical and transparent sounding. Its limiters are probably some sort of FPGA VST limiter plugin working in clipless 32 bit mode internally. Its low cut filters are very precise and simple when you start to look at sound spectre image. But it is sounds better than Zoom preamps for sure. It is kind of RAW recorder for audio and is up to your skills to shape final "look" in post. You probably need to experiment really a lot with different limiters plugins and compression effects to produce less clinical sound and shape high dynamic range audio source to something that pleasant to ears. Something like “Limiter №6” all-in-one solution may help a lot https://vladgsound.wordpress.com/plugins/
MixPre 3 II  use digital controlled pots with fixed digital hard steps, and so if for some reason you adjust volume in real time you may expect some stepping effect. So it is better do pan and volume adjustment in post with smooth software curves.

MixPre-3II ON/OFF switch is another thing that feels like total disaster after you spend some time to operate the unit. Too tiny, too close to USB-C port, extends not enough to grab it well. And it was not enough pain, so designers choose button with pure black color to make it hard to see on black panel.
They could to use simple "press and hold 2 seconds" on/off button and place it front panel instead SD logo.

Cool thing about 32 bit is that some audio apps can render output to similar "clipless" 32 bit or even double precision 64 bit float. In my example Cockos Reaper https://www.reaper.fm/ render settings:

Another app Rogue Amoeba Fission https://www.rogueamoeba.com/fission/ also can read, trim and write 32 bit float WAV files natively. But it is limited only by lossless trimming option. It can't normalize 32 bit files or do any other proper effects itself.

So formally it is possible to keep full workflow in 32 bit.

(https://i.imgur.com/Rf34GLF.jpg)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on November 09, 2019, 09:58:38 PM
this is an aside, but last summer before i got a mixpre i was lined up to buy a friends 744.  it always worked perfectly for him but he insisted on sending it in to have sound devices go over it to make sure it was operating to spec. I couldn’t believe the repair price tag on it they wanted to replace the caps and other things as well. I’ll try to dig up the estimate and list the items. We kinda take for granted with all the gear we trade around, that everything is solid-state and operates as it was originally designed. But just some food for thought, at least sound devices said the older, apparently perfectly working, 744 was not operating to their desired spec. And out of warranty service because of something you probably don’t want to mess with. Unless you have a specific need for features

That’s a great point.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on November 09, 2019, 10:44:45 PM
this is what it looked like. labor was the lions share

The following is the estimated cost for the repair of the unit below:

Model: 744T
S/N: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

For the condition:
+++++++++++++++++++++


I am going to sell my 744T unit to another concert recordist and wish to have my unit bench-tested, updated and ready for use.
I wish to have this unit declared fully operational to be able to sell this with confidence.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Labor: $350.00
Minimum Parts: $132.39
Optional Parts: $234.11

Minimum Total: $482.39
 - OR -
Minimum + Optional Total: $716.50

Minimum Parts
Output Flex Assembly
CF Card Reader
Internal Battery
Capacitor
LCD Cover
Battery Foam Block

Optional Parts
SATA Hard Drive - $234.11 (Current installed drive is 12 Years old. Should be replaced)

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on November 10, 2019, 08:18:59 AM
this is what it looked like. labor was the lions share

The following is the estimated cost for the repair of the unit below:

Model: 744T
S/N: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

For the condition:
+++++++++++++++++++++


I am going to sell my 744T unit to another concert recordist and wish to have my unit bench-tested, updated and ready for use.
I wish to have this unit declared fully operational to be able to sell this with confidence.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Labor: $350.00
Minimum Parts: $132.39
Optional Parts: $234.11

Minimum Total: $482.39
 - OR -
Minimum + Optional Total: $716.50

Minimum Parts
Output Flex Assembly
CF Card Reader
Internal Battery
Capacitor
LCD Cover
Battery Foam Block

Optional Parts
SATA Hard Drive - $234.11 (Current installed drive is 12 Years old. Should be replaced)



It would be in “like new” condition but you’d have to have bought it at a very low price to justify spending almost as much as a new MixPre 6 ii for that servicing.

Thanks for that cautionary tale. Maybe my USBPre2 will suffice for a 7xx series stand-in, and I’ll try out a new MixPre 3 ii in 32bit float to compare for clarity.

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on November 10, 2019, 08:56:12 AM
$234 for a sata hdd!?!?  how long ago was this?  doesn't even say ssd!

edit:  I seem to remember these came with IDE drives so I'll assume that price also includes an IDE > SATA kit of some sort.  Still sounds high as hell though!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on November 10, 2019, 06:37:06 PM
$234 for a sata hdd!?!?  how long ago was this?  doesn't even say ssd!

earlier this year. i remember he said he was going to request SSD upgrade but i dont see that in his comments

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on November 10, 2019, 07:07:52 PM
$234 for a sata hdd!?!?  how long ago was this?  doesn't even say ssd!

earlier this year. i remember he said he was going to request SSD upgrade but i dont see that in his comments

Here's how to DIY:
https://www.sounddevices.com/replacing-the-internal-hard-drive-in-722-and-744t-recorders/ (https://www.sounddevices.com/replacing-the-internal-hard-drive-in-722-and-744t-recorders/)

Two important points:

Quote
Units produced before May 2009 used a parallel ATA (PATA/ IDE) interface and hard drive. The accessory product XL-SATA enables installation of SATA drives in these units.

Quote
NOTE: The 722 and 744T were designed specifically for use with mechanical hard drives. While solid-state drives can be used as replacements, Sound Devices does not guarantee that the unit will operate to specification with an SSD substituted for a mechanical drive. Results may vary.

The photos show an IDE drive being replaced.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on November 10, 2019, 07:36:12 PM
Even so you can get a 500gb Samsung ssd for cheap af these days!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Niels on November 11, 2019, 04:45:23 AM
$234 for a sata hdd!?!? <snip>

Maybe it is Sound Devices branded? Their own branded/approved 32GB SD card is $50!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: borjam on November 13, 2019, 09:58:36 AM
$234 for a sata hdd!?!? <snip>

Maybe it is Sound Devices branded? Their own branded/approved 32GB SD card is $50!
As long as you get a SSD from a reputable brand there should be no problem. SSD drives are much better
standardized than the utterly crappy SDXC cards which, by design, are turds. So, a SD branded SD card
is much more important than a SDXC branded/approved SSD.

Of course Sound Devices will stick to SSD models and brands they know well. But these units are much less chaotic.

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on November 13, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
My apologies if this has been asked before, but is the line in on the MixPre 3 ii a true line in or just a padded down mic input?

Thanks.
Title: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rick.lang on November 13, 2019, 02:39:47 PM
Looking to get the 10 II and trying to price out selling some gear and acquiring new.  I'm assuming 9v dvd batteries won't do the trick.  What's the best way to power this bad boy?  Rechargeable AA's or outside power?  It comes with a AA sled, right?  I'm only looking to run it for about 6 hours with 6 mics.

In my MixPre-6 II, I use the DC Power supply when mains power is available, but I always have the optional MX-L Mount with two fully charged XL-B3 batteries mounted.  Works very well with no worries for my multi-hour shoots.

I don’t think you’ll get 6 hours but it depends on how much you’ve plugged in and how many tracks you’re recording.  Someone with more experiences than I can advise..,
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on November 13, 2019, 06:25:04 PM
My apologies if this has been asked before, but is the line in on the MixPre 3 ii a true line in or just a padded down mic input?

Thanks.

Received this reply from Sound Devices:

“Thank you for contacting Sound Devices.  Due to the nature of the technology in the MixPre-6, when the inputs are set to LINE LEVEL, most of the pre-amp circuit is bypassed.  However, some of the same circuitry that is used at LINE LEVEL is also used at MIC LEVEL.

Please let us know if you have any additional questions or concerns.

Best regards,
Danny Greenwald “
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on November 15, 2019, 09:20:02 AM
If wage agent doesn’t support 32bit files, how are people splitting the polywav?

I suppose one could use reaper and "explode multichannel audio into mono tracks" but is this the only way to do it?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: WiFiJeff on November 15, 2019, 09:42:24 AM
If wage agent doesn’t support 32bit files, how are people splitting the polywav?

I suppose one could use reaper and "explode multichannel audio into mono tracks" but is this the only way to do it?

I am using Audacity to export the tracks (as 32 bit float).  Could also normalize in Audacity and export as 24 bit fixed, I suppose.

Jeff
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on November 15, 2019, 09:45:34 AM
If wage agent doesn’t support 32bit files, how are people splitting the polywav?

I suppose one could use reaper and "explode multichannel audio into mono tracks" but is this the only way to do it?

I am using Audacity to export the tracks (as 32 bit float).  Could also normalize in Audacity and export as 24 bit fixed, I suppose.

Jeff

is it easy to split a 6 channel polywave into 3 stereo tracks using audacity?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on November 15, 2019, 10:17:57 AM
I'm using iZotope rx and it's very easy.  Select and copy the 2 channels you want, then go to file > new from clipboard.

edit:  that said you would think they would update wave agent for 32bit support!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dallman on November 15, 2019, 12:37:05 PM
If wage agent doesn’t support 32bit files, how are people splitting the polywav?

I suppose one could use reaper and "explode multichannel audio into mono tracks" but is this the only way to do it?

I use Soundforge and it does a good job of showing each stereo track.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on November 16, 2019, 04:24:45 AM
i also use soundforge and copy the tracks i want and paste into new 2 channel file
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on November 16, 2019, 08:20:27 AM
I'm using iZotope rx and it's very easy.  Select and copy the 2 channels you want, then go to file > new from clipboard.

edit:  that said you would think they would update wave agent for 32bit support!

Great tip; thanks!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on November 22, 2019, 06:29:25 PM
This is in response to Paul Issacs' posting of the new Approved Media list for the MixPre series (https://www.sounddevices.com/mixpre-series-approved-media-list/) he mentioned here:

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2316669#msg2316669 (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2316669#msg2316669)

I had not seen that there is a MixPre approved media list now.  It is good to see that SD is testing more cards, and I'm sure all of the MixPre owners here will hope that list will continue to grow.

What the SD list is missing is specific model numbers.  This is important information to have, which you will find on approved media lists from audio recording manufacturers (see lists from Tascam and Zoom, for example).  The MixPre list has general product names, but those can be applied to different production lines sold in different markets, or revised manufacturing runs that may perform differently. 

SanDisk in particular is known for having different model number cards on the market that have the exact same "headline" marketing info on the label.  I did some searching, and I think the SanDisk card on the MixPre list is SDSDXVE-032G-GNCIN, but can I be sure of that?  When I am buying an "approved" card, I want it to be the exact model which was tested.  Without that information, customers may be rolling the dice a bit.  Some users here have been burnt in the past by this.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on November 22, 2019, 06:42:48 PM
Bravo for approved media list!

the 32GB sandisk pro card (as well as its micro counterpart) was the most reliable in my testing

the 64 and 128GB sandisk card (and, well, every single other 64 and 128GB card i tested) ultimately failed

in general even cheap 32GB cards worked more reliably than

I would venture to guess that 95% of TS users havent seen or ever heard of Integral, Amplim, Freetail, and Wise brands, i heard of Wise and Integral from other TS users (and i think Wise was recommended to that user by Sound Devices.) As Integral is almost impossible to find in US, and the other 3 are considerably more expensive than average cards,unfortunately i dont see a large data pool of user data developing from these
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on November 22, 2019, 07:21:58 PM
I would venture to guess that 95% of TS users havent seen or ever heard of Integral, Amplim, Freetail, and Wise brands, i heard of Wise and Integral from other TS users (and i think Wise was recommended to that user by Sound Devices.) As Integral is almost impossible to find in US, and the other 3 are considerably more expensive than average cards,unfortunately i dont see a large data pool of user data developing from these

I had only ever heard of Integral before.  The others I am just learning of today.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on November 22, 2019, 08:26:21 PM
I would venture to guess that 95% of TS users havent seen or ever heard of Integral, Amplim, Freetail, and Wise brands, i heard of Wise and Integral from other TS users (and i think Wise was recommended to that user by Sound Devices.) As Integral is almost impossible to find in US, and the other 3 are considerably more expensive than average cards,unfortunately i dont see a large data pool of user data developing from these

I had only ever heard of Integral before.  The others I am just learning of today.

theres a submarket for professional photographers/videographers. a lot of those are "Pro" cards with a "Pro" price
https://www.coremicro.com/wise-sd2-128u3-128gb-sdxc-uhs-ii-memory-card
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on November 22, 2019, 11:41:23 PM

SanDisk in particular is known for having different model number cards on the market that have the exact same "headline" marketing info on the label.  I did some searching, and I think the SanDisk card on the MixPre list is SDSDXVE-032G-GNCIN, but can I be sure of that?  When I am buying an "approved" card, I want it to be the exact model which was tested.  Without that information, customers may be rolling the dice a bit.  Some users here have been burnt in the past by this.
When I search for the code you list here, I get a yellow label Sandisk that's only 90MB/Sec, not 95 like they list.
Try SDSDXXG-032G-GN4IN
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on November 23, 2019, 12:31:44 AM

SanDisk in particular is known for having different model number cards on the market that have the exact same "headline" marketing info on the label.  I did some searching, and I think the SanDisk card on the MixPre list is SDSDXVE-032G-GNCIN, but can I be sure of that?  When I am buying an "approved" card, I want it to be the exact model which was tested.  Without that information, customers may be rolling the dice a bit.  Some users here have been burnt in the past by this.
When I search for the code you list here, I get a yellow label Sandisk that's only 90MB/Sec, not 95 like they list.
Try SDSDXXG-032G-GN4IN

thats the one i tested, it was flawless
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191314.msg2312650#msg2312650

"Extreme" and "extreme pro" are different series
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on November 23, 2019, 08:07:50 AM

SanDisk in particular is known for having different model number cards on the market that have the exact same "headline" marketing info on the label.  I did some searching, and I think the SanDisk card on the MixPre list is SDSDXVE-032G-GNCIN, but can I be sure of that?  When I am buying an "approved" card, I want it to be the exact model which was tested.  Without that information, customers may be rolling the dice a bit.  Some users here have been burnt in the past by this.
When I search for the code you list here, I get a yellow label Sandisk that's only 90MB/Sec, not 95 like they list.
Try SDSDXXG-032G-GN4IN

Whoops; you're right.

That speaks to my point though: easy to make that mistake.  If approved media lists have the exact model number, then there's no question.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on November 23, 2019, 08:19:17 AM
I would venture to guess that 95% of TS users havent seen or ever heard of Integral, Amplim, Freetail, and Wise brands, i heard of Wise and Integral from other TS users (and i think Wise was recommended to that user by Sound Devices.) As Integral is almost impossible to find in US, and the other 3 are considerably more expensive than average cards,unfortunately i dont see a large data pool of user data developing from these

I had only ever heard of Integral before.  The others I am just learning of today.

theres a submarket for professional photographers/videographers. a lot of those are "Pro" cards with a "Pro" price
https://www.coremicro.com/wise-sd2-128u3-128gb-sdxc-uhs-ii-memory-card

 :o  Wow!  That's expensive!  If the speed ratings are to be believed, I can't think of anything that would approach those speeds, though.  It's like buying a Bugatti Chiron for narrow country roads.
Title: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rick.lang on November 25, 2019, 12:18:25 AM
I’ve used the Wise SDXC 128GB UHS-II card successfully in the MixPre-6 II as I reported elsewhere.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on November 25, 2019, 08:57:37 AM
"Damned if you do, damned if you don't", I guess.  Personally, despite the general lack of card issues, I am happy to see SD list some that they have tested and approved. A couple are cheap and easily accessible, too...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on November 25, 2019, 09:27:19 PM
This is a very good start and great to see that SD have acknowledged the need for proper card testing to help us customers. :)

The Integral cards are - at least for us Europeans - easily accessible.
They are priced very fair and performance is great. The support from the UK based Integral is superb.
Title: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rick.lang on November 26, 2019, 12:18:05 PM
There’s a new firmware update 5.00 and I’m hoping that Timecode generation for all frame rates now perform as well as 23.976 fps.  Toes crossed.


Download v5.00
Firmware version 5.00 is now available for the MixPre II Series, MixPre Original Series, and MixPre-M Series! Download today for useful improvements and features, including flexible USB output routing, USB hub support, expanded support for HDMI timecode triggering, support for the new MixAssist Plugin, and more.
 

Visit the Plugin Store
Title: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rick.lang on November 26, 2019, 12:31:55 PM
And that new $100 MixAssist plugin may be a worthy addition to the MixPre adding functionality available on the higher end devices. 


https://store.sounddevices.com/product/mixassist-plugin/
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on November 26, 2019, 12:37:36 PM
Complete list of changes and fixes.

New:

•Support for optional MixAssist automixer plugin.
•MixAssist reduces ambient noise and reverberation when mixing and recording with multiple microphones. The advanced automixer incorporates multiple proprietary algorithms for reducing noise and phase artifacts, including Noise Adaptive Threshold, MaxBus, Last Mic Lock-on, Off-Attenuation, and NOMA (Number of Open Mic Attenuator).
•The MixAssist Plugin is available for purchase at the Sound Devices Plugin Store. (available for MixPre-3, -6, 10T, -3 II, -6, II, and 10 II).
•Flexible USB Output routing. The new USB Output routing matrix allows control of what signals are sent to the computer and in which order they get sent. The matrix allows for mix-minus and selection between pre-fade vs. post-fade isolated channels (M models and music projects allow post-fade only).
•Sound Reports added to MixPre-3, MixPre-6, MixPre-3 II, and MixPre-6 II.
•Expanded list of cameras supported for HDMI timecode and triggers including cameras from Blackmagic, Canon, Nikon, and Fujifilm in addition to the already supported Sony and Panasonic cameras.
•USB Hub support: connect and simultaneously use a USB keyboard, USB Controller, and a USB Thumb-drive via a USB Hub.
Note: USB Drives are supported by the MixPre-3 II, MixPre-6 II, MixPre-10 II, MixPre-10M, and MixPre-10T.
•USB Auto-Copy copying status now more prominent: status is displayed on all meter view status bars and by a flashing record LED in stop mode.
•USB Auto-Copy can now be suspended when powering down the MixPre and auto-resume when powered back on.
•Quicker front panel knob response for low latency fader adjustments
•Improvements to reduce power consumption. Unused channels can be set to Off when not in use to maximize battery life.
•USB Audio Class 1 (Windows without ASIO driver) now supports up to 96 kHz sample rates.
•Music Mode (MixPre M models) now allow USB returns from a computer to be routed directly to headphones, bypassing the need to route it to a channel.
•Channel screen usability improvements for more immediate access to channel gain and solo.
 -Trim gain is automatically selected when entering a channel screen
 -New menu option to automatically solo the channel when entering a channel screen
 -Removed time out when setting parameters

Fixed:
•Various improvements to USB Drive Auto-Copy feature.
•Various improvements to SD Card performance.
•Rare instances where MixPre boots up with a black screen have been eliminated.
•MixPre-10T and MixPre-10 II no longer ignore record triggers from Aux In timecode.
•MixPre recorded files no longer show 00:00:00:00 timecode and duration values in the Wingman Take List.
•Rare instances of Left track meter activity freezes no longer occur.
•System lock up no longer occurs when attempting to load a music project from a formatted SD card.
•Audible click no longer occurs when turning the slate mic on or off.
•Sound Report Bit Depth field for 32-Bit files are no longer left blank.
•Record Run values are now properly held over power cycles.
•System lock up when quickly entering record after opening a pre-existing project no longer occurs.
•Power switch is no longer unresponsive after rapidly switching between music and audio projects.
•System lock up no longer occurs when turning on pre-roll with no armed tracks.
•Front panel knob levels between 91 and 96 dB in 32-Bit mode no longer attenuate the signal.
•Improved switching between 32-Bit Float, Ambisonics, and Music modes to improve overall system stability. 
•Various noises have been eradicated when tone generator is active and changes are made to sample rates or transport states.
•Noise on channels when restoring defaults from Ambisonics mode has been eliminated.
•Timecode jam screen on MixPre-10T and MixPre-10 II no longer freezes when there is no incoming timecode signal present.
•USB Controllers can no longer mute a channel in basic audio mode.
•Extra channels (5 and 6 on MixPre-6/II and 9 and 10 on MixPre-10T/II) no longer send live signal instead of the recorded track to the headphone monitor during playback.
•Extra channels 9 and 10 on a MixPre-10T/II no longer switch to off after activating the slate mic. 
•Improved the accuracy of the Timecode Jam menu difference display.
•Various system enhancements and improvements.


Wingman v5.00
•Sound Reports are now available for MixPre-3/II and MixPre-6/II.
•MixPre recorded files no longer show 00:00:00:00 timecode and duration values in the Wingman Take List.
•Track arm indicators no longer flicker green during playback in music projects.
•Rare application crash when splitting recording no longer occurs.
•Android Take List is now called File List to be consistent with iOS version.
•False Take button is now grayed out in Basic mode on Android.
•Various display fixes for iOS Dark Mode.
Title: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rick.lang on November 26, 2019, 01:08:34 PM
I wonder if improving the accuracy of the Jam menu difference display relates to the apparent occasional loss of Timecode sync that always occurs for me when recording in frame rates other than the reliable 23.976.  Maybe.  I guess I’ll find out soon enough.  Release 5 and MixAssist are fantastic upgrades by the look of it. 

Drivers, start your engines... Test!

Just read the User Guide for MixAssist.  Cannot be uninstalled by design, but it can be activated and deactivated so that ‘never’ shouldn’t be too scary.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Ronmac on November 26, 2019, 09:51:17 PM
Spotted this on FB today. Posted byPaul Isaacs of SD...

Quote
You may be interested to know that Wave Agent WILL import, edit, and split 32 bit float files now BUT it will NOT playback 32-bit float audio.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on November 28, 2019, 08:11:04 PM
Spotted this on FB today. Posted byPaul Isaacs of SD...

Quote
You may be interested to know that Wave Agent WILL import, edit, and split 32 bit float files now BUT it will NOT playback 32-bit float audio.


I saw that I tried it with a 4 channel 32bit poly. While it did combine and split the resulting files were nothing but distortion with a square wave form.  Same file split with iZotope was fine. Will post screen shot when I get back from Thanksgiving...
Title: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: rick.lang on November 29, 2019, 11:51:28 AM
The latest version of Wave Agent 1.20 says that it does not support 32-bit float audio.  Also will not run on macOS 10.15 Catalina.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on November 29, 2019, 03:38:25 PM
The latest version of Wave Agent 1.20 says that it does not support 32-bit float audio.  Also will not run on macOS 10.15 Catalina.

right but Paul Isaacs who works for SD posted the above quote.  He followed it up with this....

Quote
Generally we prefer not to make official statements on our website until things are 100% fully supported.

But as I said it did not work for me properly.  Here is the file (same one in both pics).....

first 32bit float split and combined with wave agent and the second done in izotope....


Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: shijan on November 29, 2019, 04:25:27 PM
Earlier i described strange problem with headphones output here https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189692.msg2314998#msg2314998

So today i got replacement package. I really i appreciate for SoundDevices support.
I updated new device to firmware v5.01 and tested things again. Unfortunately i got the same results as before :(
This time i done more scientific test with fixed frequency audio files. When i playback those test files from computer and increase MixPre-3II headphones volume, starting from some fixed value i can hear additional parasitic frequency noise layer. This happens in volume range of 45-65 and depends of headphones Impedance. (Tested with headphones: AKG K272HD, MEE M6 PRO, old basic Apple Earphones)

Here is a link to test audio files https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7idet23874sbc8/test_audio.zip?dl=0
I really hope it is not a build-in headphones preamp limitation and hope SoundDevices could find a way how to fix this problem.

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: shijan on December 01, 2019, 04:12:25 PM
Here is video example of that parasitic noise layer that appears starting from headphones volume 58 when use AKG k272HD headphones.
MixPre3II connected as sound card to computer. 40_Hz_-6dB.wav played back from computer.
Headphones connected to MixPre3II headphones out. I put headphones very close to smartphone microphone during recording to record that sound.

https://youtu.be/U2iDKTKM6dE

UPDATE. I played back file from computer and also uploaded file to MixPre3II file system and play it back from there. USB powered or battery powered all exact the same. No any changes in noise sound.

I also found that in addition to headphones impedance, parasitic noise appears at different volume depending of different sound frequency:

40_Hz_-6dB.wav start to produce noise starting from headphones volume 58
100_Hz_-6dB.wav start to produce noise starting from headphones volume 62

Also today i had quick attempt to timecode jam MixPre3II with BMMCC. I still not sure if i do things right, but it seems it don't do nothing. I can not see same time indicated on the BMMCC screen. Should it show same time numbers as MixPre3II freerun when jammed?
I switched on timecode input in BMMCC settings, switched to BMMCC audio input to line in, volume set to 100%, switched both devices to same framerate. Have no idea what else i can do. Maybe timecode also somehow related to problem with headphones out? I don't know...

UPD. It appears that timecode is limitation of BMMCC itself. It can't Jam synk timecode. it can only record timecode to audio track when cable is connected.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on December 13, 2019, 08:55:39 PM
Apparently the preamps in the MixPre series I and II are identical but is the AD conversion in series II superior?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Chuck on December 17, 2019, 04:23:08 PM
Bravo for approved media list!

the 32GB sandisk pro card (as well as its micro counterpart) was the most reliable in my testing

the 64 and 128GB sandisk card (and, well, every single other 64 and 128GB card i tested) ultimately failed

in general even cheap 32GB cards worked more reliably than

I would venture to guess that 95% of TS users havent seen or ever heard of Integral, Amplim, Freetail, and Wise brands, i heard of Wise and Integral from other TS users (and i think Wise was recommended to that user by Sound Devices.) As Integral is almost impossible to find in US, and the other 3 are considerably more expensive than average cards,unfortunately i dont see a large data pool of user data developing from these

Only by sheer luck did I happen to buy the 32GB Sandisk Pro card when I got my MixPre 6. It's the only card I've used and I've had no problems with it.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on December 22, 2019, 09:36:53 AM
Is there anyone who used the MixPre Series i but now has a Series ii unit? I wanted to know if you hear any difference in quality of the recordings (in 24bit not in 32bit float).

I know the Kashmir preamps are identical in both series, but since the series ii has a different A/D converter configuration, I wondered if there was a difference in sound as a result.

I have a MixPre 6 original and am attracted to 32bit float for field recordings, so thinking of trading up. However I find the Kashmir preamps, although quiet, clean and smooth, a bit less defined for nature sounds and sound effects than what I can get from my SD USBPRE2.

Does anyone notice a change in the second series?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dallman on December 22, 2019, 01:46:36 PM
Is there anyone who used the MixPre Series i but now has a Series ii unit? I wanted to know if you hear any difference in quality of the recordings (in 24bit not in 32bit float).

I know the Kashmir preamps are identical in both series, but since the series ii has a different A/D converter configuration, I wondered if there was a difference in sound as a result.

I have a MixPre 6 original and am attracted to 32bit float for field recordings, so thinking of trading up. However I find the Kashmir preamps, although quiet, clean and smooth, a bit less defined for nature sounds and sound effects than what I can get from my SD USBPRE2.

Does anyone notice a change in the second series?
I have not noticed a difference at all, but I also have not used 24 bit, only 32 bit. I know the limiters are more adjustable on the MP6 II, but as they are not available or necessary at 32 bit I have not tried them out. Being analog limiters I did have them armed on my original MP6 deck. Would I set them differently and would that make a difference in sound quality? Hard to speculate.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on December 22, 2019, 05:04:23 PM
Is there anyone who used the MixPre Series i but now has a Series ii unit? I wanted to know if you hear any difference in quality of the recordings (in 24bit not in 32bit float).

I know the Kashmir preamps are identical in both series, but since the series ii has a different A/D converter configuration, I wondered if there was a difference in sound as a result.

I have a MixPre 6 original and am attracted to 32bit float for field recordings, so thinking of trading up. However I find the Kashmir preamps, although quiet, clean and smooth, a bit less defined for nature sounds and sound effects than what I can get from my SD USBPRE2.

Does anyone notice a change in the second series?
I have not noticed a difference at all, but I also have not used 24 bit, only 32 bit. I know the limiters are more adjustable on the MP6 II, but as they are not available or necessary at 32 bit I have not tried them out. Being analog limiters I did have them armed on my original MP6 deck. Would I set them differently and would that make a difference in sound quality? Hard to speculate.

Thanks for that feedback. I wondered if the new AD converters might affect the quality of the recordings even at 24bit. They would be newer and there are more of them.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: shijan on December 23, 2019, 04:36:57 PM
Can't compare to MixPre3 first gen, but i can report that even in 24 bit mode MixPre3II preamps produce less self noise than original two channel MixPre preamp connected to MixPre3II line-in. Also noise structure itself sounds different. MixPre3II preamps have less high frequency noise. It sounds less like ssssss. More like bassy hhhhh noise sound.

(https://i.imgur.com/u0mRlyx.jpg)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on December 23, 2019, 08:15:59 PM
prob because old mixpre is transformer based, its a totally different sound
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Popmarter on January 12, 2020, 07:59:39 AM
Quick question here, I got the unit now for a few days.

Trying to figure out the 'tapermode' that suits me the best. (2x mics 48p). From what it looks I think I end up with having channel 1-2 linked and use the front knob #1 as the knob to set gain. Correct me if I am wrong, but in that case knob #2 needs to be in C all the time right? There is no way to switch it off or anything? In sneaky mode I am afraid of this knob being moved. Is ducktape the only solution for this?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on January 13, 2020, 09:54:26 AM
Quick question here, I got the unit now for a few days.

Trying to figure out the 'tapermode' that suits me the best. (2x mics 48p). From what it looks I think I end up with having channel 1-2 linked and use the front knob #1 as the knob to set gain. Correct me if I am wrong, but in that case knob #2 needs to be in C all the time right? There is no way to switch it off or anything? In sneaky mode I am afraid of this knob being moved. Is ducktape the only solution for this?

Others will correct me if this is wrong, but I think once you link the channels, moving knob #2 has no effect on level.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Popmarter on January 13, 2020, 10:05:31 AM
Quick question here, I got the unit now for a few days.

Trying to figure out the 'tapermode' that suits me the best. (2x mics 48p). From what it looks I think I end up with having channel 1-2 linked and use the front knob #1 as the knob to set gain. Correct me if I am wrong, but in that case knob #2 needs to be in C all the time right? There is no way to switch it off or anything? In sneaky mode I am afraid of this knob being moved. Is ducktape the only solution for this?

Others will correct me if this is wrong, but I think once you link the channels, moving knob #2 has no effect on level.

Correct, but it has effect on the balance (left, center, right). Atleast how I have set this at the moment
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on January 13, 2020, 10:33:07 AM
Quick question here, I got the unit now for a few days.

Trying to figure out the 'tapermode' that suits me the best. (2x mics 48p). From what it looks I think I end up with having channel 1-2 linked and use the front knob #1 as the knob to set gain. Correct me if I am wrong, but in that case knob #2 needs to be in C all the time right? There is no way to switch it off or anything? In sneaky mode I am afraid of this knob being moved. Is ducktape the only solution for this?

Others will correct me if this is wrong, but I think once you link the channels, moving knob #2 has no effect on level.

Correct, but it has effect on the balance (left, center, right). Atleast how I have set this at the moment

Sorry, I thought it operated like the linking on the SD 302, where the pan switches still determine the stereo position. On my MixPre 6, I tend to to just "set it and forget it" in the channel screens for levels, pan, etc.

Too bad they didn't give you the option of locking the pan position.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on January 13, 2020, 11:35:15 AM
Correct, but it has effect on the balance (left, center, right). Atleast how I have set this at the moment

It affects the balance of the Mix tracks, but not the ISO tracks.

I run 6 channels into my mixpre6 i. I link channels 1&2, 3&4, and 5&6. But I do not arm the mix tracks, as I prefer to do multichannel>stereo mix down in post. I leave knobs 2 and 4 in the C position, because it makes me feel good, but it has no affect on the relative volume of the ISO channels.

I could see, however, if I were to run two channels only, that I'd want to correct L/R balance live by utilizing the mix tracks and leave the ISOs unchanged for backup.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on January 13, 2020, 11:53:16 AM
Correct, but it has effect on the balance (left, center, right). Atleast how I have set this at the moment

It affects the balance of the Mix tracks, but not the ISO tracks.

I run 6 channels into my mixpre6 i. I link channels 1&2, 3&4, and 5&6. But I do not arm the mix tracks, as I prefer to do multichannel>stereo mix down in post.

seems wise. in most cases we use it for (not ENG who needs to turn over a mix right away), if anything id rather export a mix to a second recorder as a backup than hog up precious SD card bandwidth for 2 more channels
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on January 13, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
That's easy on the SD mixpre series, as even when the mix tracks aren't armed for recording, they can still be selected as the analog out, to go to a separate recorder.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jcable77 on January 13, 2020, 04:12:35 PM
Anyone use Audacity on the mixpre ii's? Just got one and have been dragging and dropping into audacity with 24/96 files and such with mixpre 6i with no issues for a while. 32/96 or 32/48 should be all set im guessing?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dallman on January 14, 2020, 11:11:28 AM
MixPre Series v6.00
Released: January 14, 2020

New
32-bit float USB audio streaming. Requires Mac OS Catalina (version 10.15+) and an application that supports 32-bit float. Find out if your application of choice supports 32-bit float audio streaming here.
(MixPre II Series only)
Fixed
MixAssist can now be enabled during Playback with ReMix on.
(MixPre-3, MixPre-6, MixPre-10T, MixPre-3 II, MixPre-6 II, MixPre-10 II)
HDMI record triggers no longer create several recordings if the cable was connected while the camera was actively recording.
(MixPre-3, MixPre-6, MixPre-3 II, MixPre-6 II)
Various system enhancements and improvements.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on January 14, 2020, 11:14:14 AM

New
32-bit float USB audio streaming. Requires Mac OS Catalina (version 10.15+) and an application that supports 32-bit float. Find out if your application of choice supports 32-bit float audio streaming here.
(MixPre II Series only)

can the mixpre stream usb to ios (phones) at lower bitrates?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on January 14, 2020, 01:29:05 PM
Yes!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: shijan on January 14, 2020, 09:15:43 PM
Unfortunately headphones-out distortion noise problem is NOT fixed yet in firmware 6.0 :(
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Popmarter on January 17, 2020, 04:08:05 PM
Thanks guys, for the response to some questions. It helped me to figure out this Mix/ISO thing. Bit strange but it worked at the two recent gigs. Went smooth. Felt a bit strange to - not be so strict on the levels - with 32bit.

Here is a result: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=666783  (Milabs with Mixpre). Inhaler is the band of U2's son Elijah Hewson. Worth checking out, think they are getting big.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: bigalow on January 27, 2020, 07:30:43 PM

New
32-bit float USB audio streaming. Requires Mac OS Catalina (version 10.15+) and an application that supports 32-bit float. Find out if your application of choice supports 32-bit float audio streaming here.
(MixPre II Series only)

can the mixpre stream usb to ios (phones) at lower bitrates?
From what I can tell the USB out dictates the bitrate that the MP will record at. For instance, I had my MP set to 32/96 and when I tested by sending the audio out to my iPhone (AUM app) via lightning cable (USB-A), the MP then popped up a warning and notified me that the bitrate would be lowered for recording. I unplugged the iPhone and checked the settings on the MP and it was indeed lowered to I believe 24/48. I believe it's due to the limitation of the iPhone, but I could definitely be wrong about that. I fond it odd the MP can't record at 32/96 then down sample for the USB output signal.


I have a question that I don't believe I've seen answered in the several MP threads I've browsed through. I have channels 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 & 7-8 linked & armed. Typically, I record to 32/96 polywav files. Everything seems to be fine except that my channels 1-2 are captured as a stereo file whereas the remaining channels get captured as ISO mono files (see pic below). I've doubled over all my settings and haven't been able to figure out what setting is different about channels 1&2 from the rest of them. Will someone please point out where I'm not seeing why this is happening? Thanks!

And before anyone comments on the captured file, I didn't have anything hooked up to the MP. I just turned the gain knobs up to the point where they registered a signal for testing purposes.

(https://i.imgur.com/OuUfYJv.png)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: morst on January 27, 2020, 09:32:13 PM
t my channels 1-2 are captured as a stereo file whereas the remaining channels get captured as ISO mono files
I think 1-2 are the mix tracks, not ISOs? So it makes sense that it's just a stereo pair.
I turn those off, no need to use the storage space, since I plan to post-process the ISO tracks as my typical workflow.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: bigalow on January 27, 2020, 11:35:52 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, I thought the mix would be comprised of any/all armed channels 1-10. You can turn off the L/R mix in the record menu so I don't think that is it. I'm sitting here playing with it and can't seem to figure it out.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: DavidPuddy on January 28, 2020, 08:21:39 AM
t my channels 1-2 are captured as a stereo file whereas the remaining channels get captured as ISO mono files
I think 1-2 are the mix tracks, not ISOs? So it makes sense that it's just a stereo pair.
I turn those off, no need to use the storage space, since I plan to post-process the ISO tracks as my typical workflow.

Mine does this too and I have the LR mix turned off. 3&4 are never joined for some reason.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on January 30, 2020, 05:54:32 PM
You mean there isn’t a single poly wave but multiple mono files on the sd card?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Charlie Miller on February 02, 2020, 05:17:08 PM
Does the MP have a SRC?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on February 02, 2020, 07:03:53 PM
i dont think so, are hardware SRCs still a thing people commonly use?


Does the MP have a SRC?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Charlie Miller on February 03, 2020, 12:17:18 PM
i dont think so, are hardware SRCs still a thing people commonly use?


Does the MP have a SRC?

The reason I ask is one if the above comments mentioned changing sample rates with iPhone recording. Made me wonder how the SRC was done.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: noahbickart on February 03, 2020, 01:00:37 PM
Charlie: what do you mean by “src?”

If you mean a sample rate converter, since the machine doesn’t really have a "normal" digital input apart from usb-c, the usb-c sample rate is set from the connected computer.

Since the only digital output is that *same* usb-c port, the same sample rate would apply.

Unlike other machines which have both a dedicated digital input and output in which you might want to input 96 and output 44.1, the mixpre series can’t do this.

So no, the Mixpre series doesn't have a mode in which the machine can act as a stand alone sample rate converter.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Charlie Miller on February 05, 2020, 10:08:51 AM
Charlie: what do you mean by “src?”

If you mean a sample rate converter, since the machine doesn’t really have a "normal" digital input apart from usb-c, the usb-c sample rate is set from the connected computer.

Since the only digital output is that *same* usb-c port, the same sample rate would apply.

Unlike other machines which have both a dedicated digital input and output in which you might want to input 96 and output 44.1, the mixpre series can’t do this.

So no, the Mixpre series doesn't have a mode in which the machine can act as a stand alone sample rate converter.

Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I keep forgetting about the lack of digi plugs
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on February 26, 2020, 04:10:04 PM
Trew Audio sent me an email that Sound Devices is increasing the prices on the MixPre II Series.

Anyone have an idea what the new prices will be? I can't find anything on the net.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on February 26, 2020, 04:28:18 PM
^ I found this online, so take it with the appropriate grain of salt. Pretty nominal increases.

MixPre-3 II: $680
MixPre-6 II: $885
MixPre-10 II: $1450
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on February 26, 2020, 06:26:25 PM
^ I found this online, so take it with the appropriate grain of salt. Pretty nominal increases.

MixPre-3 II: $680
MixPre-6 II: $885
MixPre-10 II: $1450

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on March 02, 2020, 10:00:42 PM
$50 increase doesn’t seem like too much to be concerned about. I’m still wanting one!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on March 05, 2020, 09:08:36 PM
32bit float came in very handy at Todd Snider last week as the crowd roars were +7 db while the actual audio is -10-15...


took a hell of a lot of editing but had I been running 24bit to keep the crowd roars under 0 I would have had to run way lower.....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: tim in jersey on March 06, 2020, 04:58:15 AM
32bit float came in very handy at Todd Snider last week as the crowd roars were +7 db while the actual audio is -10-15...


took a hell of a lot of editing but had I been running 24bit to keep the crowd roars under 0 I would have had to run way lower.....

Doing Todd SHEAFFER on Sunday. Want a 32 bit float recorder...
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jbell on March 07, 2020, 04:31:46 PM
Todd Snider is a great example of how 32 bit is helpful.  The show sounds nice I've given it a few spins.  I need to come by and check out Isotope to get a tutorial. 

32bit float came in very handy at Todd Snider last week as the crowd roars were +7 db while the actual audio is -10-15...


took a hell of a lot of editing but had I been running 24bit to keep the crowd roars under 0 I would have had to run way lower.....
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on March 12, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
got an email from Trew with some new products

official SD 64 and 128GB cards ($80 and $130 respectively)
official SD hirose sled ($100)
official (single, not at goofy right angle) L-mount sled ($150)

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jbell on March 12, 2020, 05:47:40 PM
Not showing on their site at the moment! 

got an email from Trew with some new products

official SD 64 and 128GB cards ($80 and $130 respectively)
official SD hirose sled ($100)
official (single, not at goofy right angle) L-mount sled ($150)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on March 12, 2020, 06:29:27 PM
https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sound-devices-mx-lm1/

https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sound-devices-mx-hirose/

https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sound-devices-sam-64sd/

https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sound-devices-sam-128sd/

Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jbell on March 12, 2020, 07:50:02 PM
Thanks! The L mount sled and Hirose look like the Hawks-wood sleds rebranded. 

https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sound-devices-mx-lm1/

https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sound-devices-mx-hirose/

https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sound-devices-sam-64sd/

https://www.trewaudio.com/product/sound-devices-sam-128sd/
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: voltronic on March 12, 2020, 08:43:53 PM
got an email from Trew with some new products

official SD 64 and 128GB cards ($80 and $130 respectively)
official SD hirose sled ($100)
official (single, not at goofy right angle) L-mount sled ($150)

Aside from the hirose sled, those prices are very high.  Especially the cards.  I still do not understand why SD doesn't test cards from the major manufacturers to find ones that meet their That's what Tascam, Zoom, and others do.

It makes me wonder who is actually making these SD-branded cards that are being sold at such a substantial markup.

It could be worse, though.  Nagra VI battery packs go for over $700.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on March 13, 2020, 01:16:17 PM
got an email from Trew with some new products

official SD 64 and 128GB cards ($80 and $130 respectively)
official SD hirose sled ($100)
official (single, not at goofy right angle) L-mount sled ($150)

Aside from the hirose sled, those prices are very high.  Especially the cards.  I still do not understand why SD doesn't test cards from the major manufacturers to find ones that meet their That's what Tascam, Zoom, and others do.

It makes me wonder who is actually making these SD-branded cards that are being sold at such a substantial markup.

It could be worse, though.  Nagra VI battery packs go for over $700.

Sound Devices did recently approve this Sandisk 64gb card which I managed to find up here in Canuckistan for $22.

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07H42L4TJ/?coliid=I16YYYPRII0JAC&colid=2NEO0C9B6O2HT&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on March 14, 2020, 04:12:10 PM
I have had zero issues with USB battery but that hirose sled looks nice!  what actual battery are folks using with the old one and what kind of runtimes?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jbell on March 14, 2020, 04:31:03 PM
Get the L mount!!  Lots of options

I have had zero issues with USB battery but that hirose sled looks nice!  what actual battery are folks using with the old one and what kind of runtimes?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gordon on March 14, 2020, 04:49:34 PM
too big and bulky for my tiny bag!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: aaronji on March 16, 2020, 03:47:25 PM
There is a new 32-bit ASIO driver for Windows 10 for the II series: https://www.sounddevices.com/asio-driver-for-mixpre-ii-series/ (https://www.sounddevices.com/asio-driver-for-mixpre-ii-series/).
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on March 20, 2020, 12:04:34 PM
If I connected a MixPre 6 ii by time code to a MixPre 6 (as slave) to make an 8 track recorder, would they start and stop in unison? And would the 8 tracks downloaded to a DAW line up as if recorded on a single machine? Or would there be drift between one set of 4-tracks and the other?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justme on March 20, 2020, 12:46:01 PM
Can’t answer with certainty but if you set the 1st gen to trigger start/stop recording on LTC on aux in.
But I don’t think the daw will be able to record the live in sync - or can they manage such a thing?
Worst case you end up with 2x4ch you need to sync in post.

Interesting idea. :)
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on March 20, 2020, 02:05:38 PM
Can’t answer with certainty but if you set the 1st gen to trigger start/stop recording on LTC on aux in.
But I don’t think the daw will be able to record the live in sync - or can they manage such a thing?
Worst case you end up with 2x4ch you need to sync in post.

Interesting idea. :)

Well, there was the promise early on of being able to link two MixPre’s and I wondered if any here had tried it, especially because the new units can generate time code.

Fixing the tracks in post would sort of bog things down. I don’t want to sync, I want to swim!
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Gutbucket on March 20, 2020, 03:48:58 PM
I don’t want to sync, I want to swim!
  :yack:
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on March 31, 2020, 07:49:25 PM
Any hints toward a “hold” function yet?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on March 31, 2020, 08:06:25 PM
Can’t answer with certainty but if you set the 1st gen to trigger start/stop recording on LTC on aux in.
But I don’t think the daw will be able to record the live in sync - or can they manage such a thing?
Worst case you end up with 2x4ch you need to sync in post.

Interesting idea. :)

Well, there was the promise early on of being able to link two MixPre’s and I wondered if any here had tried it, especially because the new units can generate time code.


time code doesnt lock two signals to sample accuracy, thats word clock input which the mixpre series doesnt have
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: dogmusic on April 01, 2020, 12:03:04 AM
Can’t answer with certainty but if you set the 1st gen to trigger start/stop recording on LTC on aux in.
But I don’t think the daw will be able to record the live in sync - or can they manage such a thing?
Worst case you end up with 2x4ch you need to sync in post.

Interesting idea. :)

Well, there was the promise early on of being able to link two MixPre’s and I wondered if any here had tried it, especially because the new units can generate time code.


time code doesnt lock two signals to sample accuracy, thats word clock input which the mixpre series doesnt have

I thought the MixPre 10T has word clock in and out.
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: Paul Isaacs on April 01, 2020, 12:29:06 AM
https://youtu.be/MqAUqPvVa4c
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jerryfreak on April 01, 2020, 01:57:12 AM
my bad. the 10t and 10-ii have word clock in and out. the 3s and 6s do not
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: justink on April 01, 2020, 08:55:16 AM
So, what's the best way to power a 10 II?
Title: Re: New Sound Devices MixPre II-series coming?
Post by: jcable77 on April 01, 2020, 05:06:20 PM
So, what's the best way to power a 10 II?
I meant to send you a link earlier. I also use the larger 11,000 mah as well. No USBc with the 10 is kind of a pain, but these work fine in the 6 and the couple times I used the 10. Ill send the Hirose Ted made me for these with it if youd like.
http://www.talentcell.com/products/12v-battery/12v-battery-8300mah.html