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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: red on September 13, 2009, 10:32:31 AM

Title: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: red on September 13, 2009, 10:32:31 AM
I have a few outdoor stealth shows coming up.  In the event of rain, I'm researching how to handle things.  Here are some old posts I found on the topic.  The condom method seems like it would muffle the sound way too much.   

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,108390.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89155.15.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,46149.15.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,40783.0/all.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81254.15.html

Any tips/advice about taping in the rain would be very much appreciated. 
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: su6oxone on September 13, 2009, 10:42:03 AM
Any tips/advice about taping in the rain would be very much appreciated. 

I've simply held an umbrella when stealthing in rainy conditions, and used windscreens for a little extra protection.  Some people have wrapped their mic bodies with a bid of cellophane or even condoms as well.  I think a small umbrella (the tiny travel ones are good because they have a small diameter/footprint) is your best bet though.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 13, 2009, 11:16:59 AM
Is a recording of a pa system really worth the risk?
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Depechemode1993 on September 13, 2009, 11:27:34 AM
Is a recording of a pa system really worth the risk?

uhhhh.... yeah.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 13, 2009, 11:28:32 AM
mmmm...... kay
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: stevetoney on September 13, 2009, 11:59:42 AM
My thoughts are that since you'd be stealth that's a bit problemmatic if it starts to rain.  If you're open and the mics are on a stand, while it takes some advance planning, it's no problem to put a stand umbrella up to protect your micsand wrap your gear in a plastic bag. 

For stealth, I've heard that the condom method actually isn't as obtrusive as you might think...maybe you need unlubed lambskin rubbers for maximum sensititivty :P ;).  It's always worth trying out beforehand wiht your home stereo system to check your results...just make sure your stereo isn't ovulating.   ::)

You also want to contemplate the fact that you're maximizing a bad situation and even if the sound is a little degraded, it's probably gonna be alot better than nothing and I've always reasoned that I'm not gonna jeopardize my expensive gear for one recording, so better safe than sorry in terms of rain protection. 

Perhaps if your mics have clips you could put them beneath the bill of a baseball cap that you're wearing.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: vanark on September 13, 2009, 02:35:58 PM
Is a recording of a pa system really worth the risk?

I really don't understand this question.  Should the event go undocumented simply because the recording is of a PA rather than an onstage multi-mic recording?  If the PA is the only recording method available?
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: J.Maye on September 13, 2009, 02:57:46 PM
Is a recording of a pa system really worth the risk?

The only music worth recording these days is world music performed by master artists from the middle east. Everything else is pure garbage and should go undocumented.  :P
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: stevetoney on September 13, 2009, 03:02:40 PM
Is a recording of a pa system really worth the risk?

I really don't understand this question.  Should the event go undocumented simply because the recording is of a PA rather than an onstage multi-mic recording?  If the PA is the only recording method available?

Agree and there's nothing wrong with recording off the PA anyway.  Outside, 99% of the time it's the only method available.  Inside, it depends on the size of the venue, but most music venue's have fine soundsystems that sound great.  In that case, a decision must be made whether stage lip or mic stand from the room would provide a better sound than the PA.  While it's often true that stage lip sounds better, if the mix is off then it can sound like shit.  So, don't forget about mixing issues.  For example, I've often recorded the band but the vocals are routed through the PA and there's only one way to get a good balanced recording (with vocals) and that's to record from the PA.

Having said this, I'd agree with the commenter for situations when the venue isn't a music venue and where the performer sets up their own crappy PA speakers on a stand, but even then the PA recording might sound better than a distant room recording if the room sounds like crap.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: M on September 13, 2009, 03:21:19 PM
The best option I can think of is waterproof mics such as dpa 4060 or sennheiser mke2 ect.

If you want to use non-waterproof mics then just protect them as much as you can with fabric or plastic as suggested. 

I had the problem of taping in the rain many times this summer and managed to pull it off using only fabric to protect my mics (although it was not totally pouring).

If you have any doubts don't bring gear that is too expensive.  If it is really pouring I will run my cheap mics.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 13, 2009, 03:39:30 PM
Is a recording of a pa system really worth the risk?

The only music worth recording these days is world music performed by master artists from the middle east. Everything else is pure garbage and should go undocumented.  :P

You assume allot, yet know very little. Now you add childish to your repetoire.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: stevetoney on September 13, 2009, 03:52:19 PM
Is a recording of a pa system really worth the risk?

The only music worth recording these days is world music performed by master artists from the middle east. Everything else is pure garbage and should go undocumented.  :P

You assume allot, yet know very little. Now you add childish to your repetoire.

C'mon girls.  Neither of you are adding a thing to this thread.  If you feel the need to catfight with each other, then go someplace, just the two of you, and do it.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: perks on September 13, 2009, 04:07:10 PM
Is a recording of a pa system really worth the risk?

I really don't understand this question.  Should the event go undocumented simply because the recording is of a PA rather than an onstage multi-mic recording?  If the PA is the only recording method available?

I didn't read the comment to be a knock on PA recording. I think the question is whether or not getting one nights recording is worth the replacement value of your equipment. PA recording is what you would most likely be doing if you have to deal with the possibility of rain.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 13, 2009, 04:14:28 PM
thank you for critically assessing the question.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: illconditioned on September 13, 2009, 04:16:16 PM
The best option I can think of is waterproof mics such as dpa 4060 or sennheiser mke2 ect.

If you want to use non-waterproof mics then just protect them as much as you can with fabric or plastic as suggested. 

I had the problem of taping in the rain many times this summer and managed to pull it off using only fabric to protect my mics (although it was not totally pouring).

If you have any doubts don't bring gear that is too expensive.  If it is really pouring I will run my cheap mics.
Countryman B3 are also very good for rain.  I had them on my hat with some Rycote "overcovers", little furry circles about 1" diameter that stick on to any surface with double sided tape.  Works great!

  Richard
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 13, 2009, 04:22:18 PM
Humidity and moisture kill electronics. Maybe not immediately, but over time.
I'm still dealing with corroding circuit traces in my old sennheisers, some 30 years later now. Literally inches of circuit board gone now, originally spurred by moisture.
You might think that you pulled some gem i the rain, but iis it worth hundreds of dollars?

I know that concerts slip past every night, and I still get a good nights sleep knowing that they didn;t get documented.
Night three of a five night run in one city isn't all that much to get worked up over, as they'll be some similar set list in the next towns three night stint, and so on.
What matters?
Premiere playings of original compositions that might not ever get played again.
For those, I might consider dragging my gear to a nice enclosed venue if it were raining outside. But I'd park at the back door, and run my gear inside, ardly letting a raindrop settle before I wiped it dry.
But then again, I live in socali, where it hardly ever rains, and when it does, we see concerts inside.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: page on September 13, 2009, 04:23:54 PM
My thoughts are that since you'd be stealth that's a bit problemmatic if it starts to rain.

Depends entirely on your setup approach. It might even be easier to stealth in the rain if you chose your approach and setup carefully enough, just requires some serious creativity. There is a picture floating around somewhere of a schoeps stealth taper in the rain, rather ingenious really. It doesn't answer the humidity question, but thats more of a value judgement for individual users.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Depechemode1993 on September 13, 2009, 07:07:43 PM
Humidity and moisture kill electronics. Maybe not immediately, but over time.
I'm still dealing with corroding circuit traces in my old sennheisers, some 30 years later now. Literally inches of circuit board gone now, originally spurred by moisture.
You might think that you pulled some gem i the rain, but iis it worth hundreds of dollars?

I know that concerts slip past every night, and I still get a good nights sleep knowing that they didn;t get documented.
Night three of a five night run in one city isn't all that much to get worked up over, as they'll be some similar set list in the next towns three night stint, and so on.
What matters?
Premiere playings of original compositions that might not ever get played again.
For those, I might consider dragging my gear to a nice enclosed venue if it were raining outside. But I'd park at the back door, and run my gear inside, ardly letting a raindrop settle before I wiped it dry.
But then again, I live in socali, where it hardly ever rains, and when it does, we see concerts inside.

thats why

1a) always check the weather before you go to an outside show
2a) if there is a great chance of rain bring an umbrella and a fanny back for your gear.
3a) if there is a great chance of rain bring mics that are not your primaries (if you have this option). When I had my DPA's I would not risk them and would use my ECM-717.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: firmdragon on September 14, 2009, 01:31:08 AM
Humidity and moisture kill electronics. Maybe not immediately, but over time.
I'm still dealing with corroding circuit traces in my old sennheisers, some 30 years later now. Literally inches of circuit board gone now, originally spurred by moisture.
You might think that you pulled some gem i the rain, but iis it worth hundreds of dollars?

I know that concerts slip past every night, and I still get a good nights sleep knowing that they didn;t get documented.
Night three of a five night run in one city isn't all that much to get worked up over, as they'll be some similar set list in the next towns three night stint, and so on.
What matters?
Premiere playings of original compositions that might not ever get played again.
For those, I might consider dragging my gear to a nice enclosed venue if it were raining outside. But I'd park at the back door, and run my gear inside, ardly letting a raindrop settle before I wiped it dry.
But then again, I live in socali, where it hardly ever rains, and when it does, we see concerts inside.

thats why

1a) always check the weather before you go to an outside show
2a) if there is a great chance of rain bring an umbrella and a fanny back for your gear.
3a) if there is a great chance of rain bring mics that are not your primaries (if you have this option). When I had my DPA's I would not risk them and would use my ECM-717.


i've taped with dpas and sonics in the pouring rain.  i worried more about getting sick the next day.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: stevetoney on September 14, 2009, 07:14:56 AM
i've taped with dpas and sonics in the pouring rain.  i worried more about getting sick the next day.

That might be true, but I suspect you're talking about 4060's which are advertised to be waterproof, where most of the other DPA line is not. 

While someone might have no problems subjecting their expensive gear to rain and moisture,

a) I'd never do so, and
b) I'd never buy gear from someone if I knew that they'd done so (unless of course it's gear that's designed for it.)

Basically, tells me that the gear hasn't been well cared for.  As mfrench said earlier, humidity and moisture kill electronics over time...not immediately.  I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's just the way I see it.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: spybo on September 14, 2009, 08:33:19 AM
Some of us only have the stealth option for recording....it is not acceptable ( in most cases ) here in Oz to setup mic stands etc.....so in answer to your question
....I would obviously make sure the recorder and any preamp/batt box are well insulated from the rain.....a gortex coat or similar...Then make sure the mics run up behind your back (inside the coat) and into a hat--velcro them to the underside of the brim....if the hat is waterproof then all should be sweet unless you are in a severe downpour....
works for me and yes a pa recording is sometimes the only memory we get of the great nights!
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Depechemode1993 on September 14, 2009, 10:17:41 AM
i've taped with dpas and sonics in the pouring rain.  i worried more about getting sick the next day.

HAHAHAHA!
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: DisturbedPyro on September 14, 2009, 08:45:42 PM
I have a few outdoor stealth shows coming up.  In the event of rain, I'm researching how to handle things.  Here are some old posts I found on the topic.  The condom method seems like it would muffle the sound way too much.   

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,108390.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89155.15.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,46149.15.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,40783.0/all.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81254.15.html

Any tips/advice about taping in the rain would be very much appreciated. 
i personally use finger cots (the little condoms for your fingers if you get a cut or whatever). they fit completely over the mics and i secure them at the bottom with a rubber band. if youre worried about distortion, theres no need really. i cant tell a difference in the sound of my recordings when i use the cots from when i dont. i always make sure to pull the cot somewhat tight over the mics to make as much of a direct line of sound to the mic as possible. i think youll be pleased with the results, i dont think youd be able to tell a difference with having the cots on
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Scooter123 on September 14, 2009, 10:49:26 PM
OK, I took you guy's advice and really messed up.  You told me that you used a condom and I figured that this meant a used condom.  Now I have a real mess in my hat and all over my Schoeps mk4s.  Goof Off just doesn't cut it and neither does Oxy-Clean.  I even tried a Sham-Wow.

Heck, Olympic divers use it, but it didn't touch this mess.   
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: nathan_g on September 15, 2009, 01:31:50 AM
I haven't had the opportunity (misfortune?) to record in the rain but I have planned for the event. I picked up a few disposable ponchos (at an auto parts place I think) that look like they'd work well. They're clear, very thin, unlike traditional nylon/vinyl ponchos and don't seem like they would be overly noisy or restricting. Cost a dollar each. I wouldn't trust one of these things in a real downpour but light rain shouldn't be too much trouble.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: travelinbeat on September 15, 2009, 04:18:05 AM
To tie-off condoms, I used some small bungee / elastic cord from a local hardware store.  It's the same sort of thing used in most shockmounts and a fresh piece of that stuff will absolutely tie a 110% waterproof knot. 

The only other piece of advice I have that hasn't already been mentioned (suprisingly), is to make sure that the lowest point of all connections is not where the cable meets the input.  In other words, make sure that is any water gets onto your cables / interconnects, it will have to go up-hill in order to drip into your machine. 

I found stealthing in the rain to be worrisome, but a fun challenge.  Never had any problems.  I know people will disagree, but I don't really worry about the mics getting wet.  I know I cover them way more than necissary, and as far as moisture goes, I think all stealthers can attest to the fairly regular diet of sweat that most stealth rigs get
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: stevetoney on September 15, 2009, 06:39:50 AM
What I find funny about this thread and others like it is that, I'd be willing to bet that alot of the same people that are recommending not to worry about the mics getting wet would post in the yard sale that their gear has been babied and kept in a smoke free environment. 

If you're so confident that allowing mics (other than 4060s) is OK, would you be willing to say so in your YS listing when you're trying to sell your gear?  I doubt it.

Really I don't care what anyone does with their gear, but it does bother me a little that these posts give noobs what I believe to be the wrong impression that it's OK to let your mics get soaked.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: stevetoney on September 15, 2009, 09:33:18 AM
...and continuing on my soap box, what people need to consider is that rain water picks up and carries pollution and other airborne contaminants.  When the rain water (or any other water for that matter) is allowed to dry, it leaves behind these contaminants...on the inside of your mics.

Salt...chlorides...etc. 

Left uncleaned, over time these contaminants corrode metallic components.  If there's a chance that it takes days or weeks for the inner parts to dry out, a galvanic cell can form which can REALLY corrode the inner pieces of your stuff quickly.

Just check the chrome parts on a 10 year old car to see what concentrating contaminants can do over time.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: edtyre on September 15, 2009, 10:45:27 AM
I don't tape in the rain, stealth or open. Just not a comfortable situation for me.
The gear stays at home or is covered real good and i have no problem sitting on the sidelines
enjoying the show. Part of having a good time means not having to worry about the gear all show.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Todd R on September 15, 2009, 11:02:32 AM
What I find funny about this thread and others like it is that, I'd be willing to bet that alot of the same people that are recommending not to worry about the mics getting wet would post in the yard sale that their gear has been babied and kept in a smoke free environment. 

If you're so confident that allowing mics (other than 4060s) is OK, would you be willing to say so in your YS listing when you're trying to sell your gear?  I doubt it.

Really I don't care what anyone does with their gear, but it does bother me a little that these posts give noobs what I believe to be the wrong impression that it's OK to let your mics get soaked.

Funny, I just assume that all gear on this board has been treated this way.  No need for a disclaimer IME, this is field gear not studio gear.  So it's been in the field, which for probably most of us means rock concerts, inside in smoky venues (even non-smoking venues have people who will smoke), inside in venues where they use fog machines (which are basically particulate machines if you ask me), outside potentially in rainy conditions, outside in major humidity in many areas of the country, outside in a dust bowl.  Babied to me means you try your best to protect your equipment despite the difficult conditions we tape in.

I don't have a problem with people who don't want to take their gear out in potentially rainy conditions, but it's a little silly to think we need disclaimers on gear sales -- again I think from the context of this board we can assume it is field gear.  Why only disclaimers for rain, how about disclaimers for using mics outside in humidity (there goes sales from all of the south, and PA probably based on my recent taping excursion in Philly), or sales from places that don't have anti-smoking laws, etc, etc?  Or perhaps a disclaimer that the gear was used in places where alcohol was sold/consumed, since we all know the dangers of drunks and our gear.

For my part, I tape outdoors in Colorado, which means that pretty much always you have a chance of rain (and with proper planning, your mics certainly don't get soaked even if it does rain).  If you don't want to tape in the rain, you won't be taping outdoors in Colorado.  But I'd still take a brief passing shower with my mics protected and under an umbrella than taping all the time where the humidity is 90+.  And I've been taping in Kansas at Wakarusa where it was a serious dust bowl -- all those micro-particulates cannot be good for a mic's diaphragm.

Anyway, food for thought, but I'd say most of the places most of us tape in aren't the best for the equipment.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: page on September 15, 2009, 11:30:48 AM
What I find funny about this thread and others like it is that, I'd be willing to bet that alot of the same people that are recommending not to worry about the mics getting wet would post in the yard sale that their gear has been babied and kept in a smoke free environment. 

If you're so confident that allowing mics (other than 4060s) is OK, would you be willing to say so in your YS listing when you're trying to sell your gear?  I doubt it.

Really I don't care what anyone does with their gear, but it does bother me a little that these posts give noobs what I believe to be the wrong impression that it's OK to let your mics get soaked.

Funny, I just assume that all gear on this board has been treated this way.  No need for a disclaimer IME, this is field gear not studio gear.  So it's been in the field, which for probably most of us means rock concerts, inside in smoky venues (even non-smoking venues have people who will smoke), inside in venues where they use fog machines (which are basically particulate machines if you ask me), outside potentially in rainy conditions, outside in major humidity in many areas of the country, outside in a dust bowl.  Babied to me means you try your best to protect your equipment despite the difficult conditions we tape in.

I don't have a problem with people who don't want to take their gear out in potentially rainy conditions, but it's a little silly to think we need disclaimers on gear sales -- again I think from the context of this board we can assume it is field gear.  Why only disclaimers for rain, how about disclaimers for using mics outside in humidity (there goes sales from all of the south, and PA probably based on my recent taping excursion in Philly), or sales from places that don't have anti-smoking laws, etc, etc?  Or perhaps a disclaimer that the gear was used in places where alcohol was sold/consumed, since we all know the dangers of drunks and our gear.

For my part, I tape outdoors in Colorado, which means that pretty much always you have a chance of rain (and with proper planning, your mics certainly don't get soaked even if it does rain).  If you don't want to tape in the rain, you won't be taping outdoors in Colorado.  But I'd still take a brief passing shower with my mics protected and under an umbrella than taping all the time where the humidity is 90+.  And I've been taping in Kansas at Wakarusa where it was a serious dust bowl -- all those micro-particulates cannot be good for a mic's diaphragm.

Anyway, food for thought, but I'd say most of the places most of us tape in aren't the best for the equipment.

I'd put a disclaimer if I wasn't selling this stuff on this board, but I think it's par for the course here; "Field gear," it's what we do. I don't "baby" my gear, but I do take good care of it. I've tried to get into the practice on sending my mic equipment back periodically to someone who can look it over, clean it up if needed, and replace any parts as necessary (shooting for once a year with heavy use, maybe every 18 months, so far so good).

I guess if your going to baby your gear and only use it in pristine conditions, then yeah, you wouldn't need that. What I do may be overkill as is, dunno.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: stevetoney on September 15, 2009, 12:05:16 PM
What I find funny about this thread ...

Funny, I just assume that all gear ...

Todd...I don't disagree with your points.  FWIW, I'm not advocating disclaimers nor am I trying to pass judgement about what the term 'babied' necessarily means...you're absolutely right, it's field gear and therefore it's subject to the rigors of the field.

OTOH, there's a difference between gear that's been used alot in the field and gear that's been neglected. 

I have to say that I disagree fairly strongly with people that are claiming it's perfectly OK to leave your mics out in the rain and allow them to get soaked...this is hella lot different situation than a taper that gets caught in the sudden downpour and the gear gets wet while they're trying to get umbrella's, baggies, etc set up.

Apparently, people are judging this issue by the fact that the mics typically dry out and work again after they've dried out.

For reasons that I've already stated, long term degradation and corrosion product build-up are totally valid issues that can lead to functional failure over time...issues that would not exist if the mics weren't allowed deliberately to get soaked. 

So, yeah if I were contemplating chucking over $1000 for a pair of schoeps capsules and I discovered they they'd gone through a few downpours unprotected, there's pretty much no way I'd buy them.

EDIT:  For clarity, I'm talking about the people that say to go ahead and let the mics get soaked because they have experiences that the mics still work during the rain in an unprotected state and that they work after they dry out again.  To me, that's NOT proof that it's OK to leave the mics unprotected from rain because of concern for long term corrosion.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: travelinbeat on September 15, 2009, 01:33:22 PM
tonedeaf--

I really wish that you would stop using the word "soaked".  I haven't read one post so far that even REMOTELY advocates, encourages, or suggests that allowing mics to get "soaked" is okay and advisable.  All of us are responding to the OP's question: "Any tips/advice about taping in the rain would be very much appreciated."

That you have decided never to tape in the rain is great.  I believe that everyone can agree that leaving your mics home on wet days is certainly safer than bringing them out.  But you seem far too inclined to assume that there is absolutely no way whatsoever you can bring mics out in the rain and have them stay dry.  It seems a little silly to me, honestly.  Certainly you could, if you wanted to, bring a cotton ball with you on a rainy stroll through town and, with proper preparation, not worry about it getting wet.  Granted mics and recording devices do have a few more considerations than cotton balls, but it is still agonizingly inaccurate to assume that there is no way whatsoever to bring them out without having them "soaked" or even remotely damp.  Really, without having them get even slightly wet in any capacity.

Without giving away too much (since we're still talking stealth, here), I wear the mics with condoms, tied off with elastic bungee type string, about 1 inch below a wide brim waterproof hat (Driza-Bone (http://www.countryloversstore.com/acatalog/M_DrizaBone_Slouch.jpg)-- name says it all).  From there cables run directly into an inside pocket in a very water proof coat, which has my recording gear all in bags-- two bags each-- taped and sealed. 

Everything gets rigorously hand dried and allowed to air dry before any waterproofing is removed. 

To presume that it is impossible to keep something dry in the rain is ridiculous, and even more unfair is to insist on using the word "soaked."  I would be willing to bet that my mics stay absolutely 110% bone dry during this sort of situation.  Again, I'd never encourage anyone to do something that they're uncomfortable with with their mics, but to the OP's request for information about how to accomplish his / her goal, I feel that the best advise that could be given a) affirms that taping in the rain is serious and far more dangerous than taping in a dry environment, and b) goes on to explain what steps are necessary to see to it that your gear stays safe, should you decide to move ahead and tape.

ymmv
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 15, 2009, 01:41:47 PM
soaked is a relative term.
the space between the capsule and backplate of a certain danish manufacturers mics is electron-micoscope small.
I'm not a scientist, but I bet you can't stack too many water molecules together before you span that kind of gap.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: stevetoney on September 15, 2009, 03:51:37 PM
^^  :) LOL...not only that, but I was indeed referring to SOAKED. 

There have been a couple of people in this thread say they don't cover their mics at all when it rains and my responses were directed at those comments. 

I already said this once, but these responses are made mainly for the sake of noobs, so they don't get the impression that the majority of people advocate allowing your mics to be unprotected when it starts to rain.

99% or more of the tapers that I know, myself included, put their mics under a small umbrella when it starts to rain (or in the case of stealth, put them in a condom or under the bill of your hat).  It doesn't necessarily protect the mics from humidity, but it does protect them from getting soaked.  ;)

Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 15, 2009, 04:30:27 PM
lets talk oxidation and tin whiskers.
tin whiskers take out billion dollar satellites. They'll laugh at your toys.
We used to have lead solder that was more stable. Now we have alloys, and this whiskering issue.
Anyone want to throw the oxidizer into the mix?
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: M on September 15, 2009, 05:01:10 PM
All electronics have a finite lifespan.  There is humidity everywhere among other nastys that will hurt your gear.

Yes, you can help to prolong the life of electronics by keeping it in a low humidity environment.

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.  Weigh the risks and be as prepared as you can.

It is a good idea to store your gear with moisture absorbing packs even if you don't *think* you tape in humidity.


 

Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: travelinbeat on September 15, 2009, 05:20:41 PM
All electronics have a finite lifespan.  There is humidity everywhere among other nastys that will hurt your gear.

Yes, you can help to prolong the life of electronics by keeping it in a low humidity environment.

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.  Weigh the risks and be as prepared as you can.

It is a good idea to store your gear with moisture absorbing packs even if you don't *think* you tape in humidity.
all qtf

Another thing I do, in lieu of having a moisture absorbing bag is keep all of those "DO NOT EAT" things you get.  Those little Silcone gel (?) things are designed to keep their environment dry.  I keep those in all of my gearbag pockets and all cases, etc.  A poor man's alternative, but certainly better than nothing
 


[/quote]
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: illconditioned on September 15, 2009, 05:47:06 PM
I was at a festival (Hillside, Guelph Ontario Canada) and the soundguy had a pair of I think Rode (?) LDC mics out in front of the soundboard.  In front of the covered sound area.  It was crazy rain all weekend, and the guy just did not care.  I couldn't help going up and asking what's up.  He said, Oh, I leave the Neumans in the truck when it rains.  Just painful to watch *any* mics at risk...

  Richard
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Depechemode1993 on September 15, 2009, 07:07:33 PM
Yeah... for sure I want to get all of my money's worth out of my mics, tapin' rain or shine baby!!! (with an umbrella of course  ;) )
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: su6oxone on September 15, 2009, 07:31:17 PM
All this humidity and corrosion talk has got me thinking that I ought to start using those little silica packets too.  I searched on ebay and it looks like the packets commonly come in varying sizes, including 1gm, 5gm, etc.  Anyone know what a 'standard' size packet is?  I don't know if I have any on hand for comparison, but will keep the next one I come across.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 15, 2009, 08:12:33 PM
I throw those in my kit bags whenever I find them in electronics packaging.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Gutbucket on September 15, 2009, 08:56:27 PM
You can buy jumbo sized desiccant packs at the hardware store or supermarket. Damp-rid is a common brand with a box of 5 or so 3"x5" packets.  Besides keeping them with my taping gear, I toss a couple of those in the case of my 'good' acoustic guitar. In other parts of the country people need to humidify their guitars, here we need to dry 'em out.

Not stealth, but I was just looking for a photo that now appears I never took. The fair weather version is below. When the rain blew in late in the afternoon, the Geffs came down and got packed in the waterproof case. But the Blumlein rigged ADKs stayed up under an stand umbrella, mics and vert-bar wrapped in drycleaner-thin disposable rain-poncho plastic down to stand & wire level.  The shock-mount baskets top and bottom created a frame to support the plastic, tensioned and secured with gaff tape. Took a bit of effort to get the plastic well tensioned to squelch wind rustling but worked perfectly. A few serious gales blew rain sideways which would have soaked the mics otherwise.  The weather threatened but didn't make much noise for the headliners and I can hear no sonic issues at all with the wrap-job'd recordings.  Completely dry once broken down, I still packed the gear with damp-rid packs in the trunk over night back at camp and in their storage case back at home. All a risk calculated as acceptable, but also partly an entertaining field-recording challenge.

Edit- I've had flown 4060s caught in a downpour, wrung out the wind screens, shook the water out of the mics and kept rollin' no problem.  Gave them the distilled rinse and desiccant packing once I got home too but I honestly don't worry about water with those, like I do for normal condensers.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Depechemode1993 on September 16, 2009, 10:34:19 AM
are 4061's also waterproof? why would they only make the 4060?
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: M on September 16, 2009, 01:50:53 PM
are 4061's also waterproof? why would they only make the 4060?

yes
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Gutbucket on September 16, 2009, 03:05:54 PM
Don't submerge them. Water-resistant is probably a more accurate term.

Serious weather chasers stealth with hydrophones.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Depechemode1993 on September 16, 2009, 07:14:53 PM
ok... water-resistant. But how in the world can DPA make mics like that?
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Moke on September 16, 2009, 07:19:36 PM
The word from Bruce Myers *regarding the 406x series (paraphrased, but asked of him multiple times, and answered directly to me):
To clean them, immerse them in distilled water, swizzle them to remove contaminants, shake them out, plug them in to assist in drying.

They'll be deaf until they're dried out. So make sure that you have that kind of lead time built into any equation.

*edit - adding clarity
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Gutbucket on September 16, 2009, 08:11:44 PM
Immerse & swizzle. That is pretty waterproof, still I'd only do it with distilled water as specified.

ok... water-resistant. But how in the world can DPA make mics like that?

Dunno. Being electrets probably has something to do with it.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: ScottT on September 18, 2009, 09:27:37 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/larapictures/lj/Segway_umbrella_hat.jpg)
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: wklitz on September 18, 2009, 09:43:17 AM
If it's raining enough for me to think about worrying about my mics getting soaked, odds are I've already blown off the show, as I have no desire to stand in the rain, one shower a day is my limit. that being said, I have had plenty of shows in rain without the mics getting wet.  key is windscreens or other foam on the capsule, even in torrential downpours, it's unlikely the water will seep all the way through both the hat and the foam.  Of course be cautious and also tape around all connections (capsule to active/remote cable, cable to body, body to xlr).

I have never had a problem using the above precautions, never seen even a drop of water on my mics.  I havent really done any rain taping since the GD days though, as unless it's a legendary dinosaur rocker that I may not get the chance to see again, I'd rather stroke it at home than stand in the rain.

I HAVE heard the results of Schoeps MK4V's (luckily not mine) under protected in the rain and yeah, that can't be good in the long term, though they did dry out and work fine now.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: red on September 19, 2009, 12:46:04 PM
thanks for all the thoughtful replies.  turns out my weather forecast is clear, but it's always nice to be prepared. 
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: baustin on September 19, 2009, 01:34:39 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/larapictures/lj/Segway_umbrella_hat.jpg)


Exactly what I was thinking
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Hank Mardukas on December 27, 2018, 10:01:10 AM
Has anyone experimented with water repellent spray on a windscreen?  I'm wondering if this would do the job in a stealth situation and still be acoustically transparent.

Something like this:  https://www.amazon.com/303-Fabric-Upholstery-Protector-Repellent/dp/B00KMYYQ36?ref_=bl_dp_s_web_2581561011
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Gutbucket on December 27, 2018, 10:48:38 AM
Helps reduce moisture saturation from humidity and indirect splatter, but will not counter direct rain droplet hits on the upper surface of the windscreen.   You need some sort of physical water barrier above the microphone.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Scooter123 on December 27, 2018, 12:14:45 PM
If its a light shower, then my exterior head clothing will suffice.  I might add an interior bandana as well, and if necessary changing it during the set.  I do the same for JazzFest or other very warm weather recordings, where sweat, not rain, is the main issue. 

Honestly, if the show is a full downpour, I won't record. 
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: opsopcopolis on December 27, 2018, 12:53:37 PM
Honestly, if the show is a full downpour, I won't record.

Same. I try to avoid outdoor stealth situations in general
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: daspyknows on December 27, 2018, 01:38:32 PM
As Scooter123 says.  There is a sliding scale where I would pull the plug.  If its a major act for me I will push it a little further than if its just another gig.  This past summer I was debating o do the Van Morrison day at British Summer Time at Hyde Park.  Rest of the lineup that day sucked so I passed on it.  As it turns out the skies opened up for 2 1/2 hours that coincided with the Van set so glad I spent the day at  the march and in pubs.  It was a downpour that I would have pulled the plug on taping anyone.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: mrfender on December 27, 2018, 04:45:10 PM
Went to Tesla/Joan Jett/Styx last summer and sat on the lawn for the first time.  Dry for Tesla and then the heavens opened up just as JJ was starting  and they shoehorned everyone under the canopy. We got stuck in the very back so every time the wind blew a big downpour hit, we got soaked. Still managed to tape the show holding my little Tascam up near my face (wasn't going to risk my mics) and tried to shield it from the rain. It got a little bit of water in one microphone which cut in and out so I thought it was toast for a while. Dried it out good when I got home and it seems to work just fine.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: u2_fly_2 on March 18, 2019, 01:15:07 PM
Another option if possible during the circumstances are to wrap a piece of old newspaper and arrange over the mic´s...the thicker the better result...covers the mic´s and usually don´t provide any unwanted "sounds".

Also a thicker kind of rain-wear where you can put the mic´s covered under the rain-clothes might work.....Don´t try a "poncho" as it is to thin and you´ll hear the raindrops/wind on the mic´s.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: bonghitwillie on May 01, 2019, 09:00:56 PM
having your mics under a poncho changes the tonal quality (for the worse). almost impossible to eq out. i know from experience. alot of times the cover over the stage extends out into the audience a little. that is the best place to be.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: ThePiedPiper on May 01, 2019, 09:04:16 PM
I use these and have had nice results. Just my 2 cents.

https://www.ebay.com/i/232770611611?chn=ps&var=532283265586
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: opsopcopolis on May 02, 2019, 02:23:57 PM
I use these and have had nice results. Just my 2 cents.

https://www.ebay.com/i/232770611611?chn=ps&var=532283265586

Finger condoms! Mics sound ok through those?
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: daspyknows on May 03, 2019, 12:02:06 AM
I use these and have had nice results. Just my 2 cents.

https://www.ebay.com/i/232770611611?chn=ps&var=532283265586

Finger condoms! Mics sound ok through those?

Might need the real deal for some mics.  Size matters.   ;D
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: jerryfreak on May 03, 2019, 02:50:51 AM
I use these and have had nice results. Just my 2 cents.

https://www.ebay.com/i/232770611611?chn=ps&var=532283265586

Finger condoms! Mics sound ok through those?

Might need the real deal for some mics.  Size matters.   ;D

the other day i was at the drug store and the girl behind the counter said "wow arent those a little... big?"

i just sniffed like ralph ferley and said "well little girl, not everybody out there is packing large diaphragm equipment"
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: ThePiedPiper on May 03, 2019, 04:52:14 AM
I use these and have had nice results. Just my 2 cents.

https://www.ebay.com/i/232770611611?chn=ps&var=532283265586

Finger condoms! Mics sound ok through those?

I recorded TOTO / Kansas through one hell of a storm and these little things did the trick.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: illconditioned on May 10, 2019, 04:37:35 AM
Go Pro Sennheiser MKE2 elements.They have an MKE2 capsule (4.5mm diameter) behind a 10mm protective diaphragm.The diaphragm is glued on top, with a small gap between it and the underlying capsule.The coupling is very well done, with a thin "damping layer" as well.
If you want waterproof indestructible capsules, these are what you need.
As I mentioned in another post, these mics run a bit "hot" so best to use a battery box and put them line in for loud shows.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: TheMetalist on May 10, 2019, 06:51:56 AM
I use these and have had nice results. Just my 2 cents.

https://www.ebay.com/i/232770611611?chn=ps&var=532283265586

Finger condoms! Mics sound ok through those?

I recorded TOTO / Kansas through one hell of a storm and these little things did the trick.

These have some powder on the inside, right? Do you use the protection inside out?
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: pillowman on May 13, 2019, 12:20:08 PM
interesting input to this topic from mr ThePiedPiper ...
like to read more about, ... would be awesome to learn more about this
because the festival season is just knockin' on the door  :shrug:
cu
...
pillowman
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: jerryfreak on May 22, 2019, 01:21:24 AM
DPA 606x

https://www.facebook.com/dpamicrophones/photos/a.217577010734/10156290192190735/?type=3&theater
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Gutbucket on May 22, 2019, 12:48:00 PM
Not stealth but open.. One reason I converted my open-taping 8 microphone multichannel rig to all miniature DPA (except a single Naiant X8S) is not having to worry about the environmental impacts of field use damaging the microphones- the impact of dust, humidity and rain primarily.  I only need to concern myself with the short term sonic issues of minimizing rain droplet noise and keeping the windscreens from becoming saturated.  The 4098 and 4061 microphones I'm using in this rig are the legacy versions, so I'm not sure they achieve the same IP58 rated resistance to dust, moisture, and immersion of the newer CORE versions (see below), yet the 4061 pair which that rig evolved around have survived total immersion for at least an hour.. while still recording.. believe it or not without appreciable audible effect!

Story on that (which I've posted elsewhere at TS, years ago)- Before I trusted exposing the 4061 pair to rain I used to occasionally put finger cots over them and their miniature windscreens.  I did that because due to the wide omni spacing I was using it was impractical to use either a single huge-diameter stand umbrella, or to try an mount individual tiny umbrellas over each microphone.  This seemed a good solution to effectively "water-proof" the microphones and indeed it kept the mics dry in several heavy rain situations, yet once at an outdoor festival in Northern Florida I had run back to camp, and while away from the rig the only non-taper-friendly act of the festival took the stage requiring all stands to be lowered to chair height.  The sound guy and other tapers helped lower my rig, including lowering the hinged telescopic arms at the end of which were the 4061s in taped-sealed finger cots, so that the arms no longer extended out horizontally but instead hung on either side of the stand pointing straight down. During that set a heavy rain storm moved in and copious amounts of water ran down the folded telescopic arms and made its way past the seeming tight tape-seals of the finger cots, slowing filling them with water until they formed miniature water balloons with the microphones inside. The recorder was buried in the recording bag, placed inside a thick plastic garbage bag, with cables routed so as to form a drip-loop, and carried on recording.  I expected the microphones to be completely waterlogged, requiring a night packed in desiccant to be operational the following day, yet they were not only operational, the recording didn't even seem to suffer for it (it did of course suffer from the mics being lowered close to the ground, below a row of chairs, separated only by a few inches).  That evening I gave them a distilled water swizzle cleaning and let them dry out completely overnight.  The recorder was buried deep in its bag inside a thick plastic garbage bag and carried on recording.  They are still going strong now ~10 years later.  To me this served as good, if unwanted proof of their environmental toughness.

Copied from the DPA website-

4. How durable is the CORE by DPA technology?
DPA miniature microphones are used in a wide range of environments, some rougher than others. For this reason, we go a long way to ensure that they have the durability that our users have come to expect. Durability and robustness are inherent in the mechanical design of the mics, which is aimed at minimizing the impact of exposure to heat, cold, tension, water, sweat, and dust, to mention a few.
 
This durability is achieved through a number of defense mechanisms. Water-repellant nano-coating of the cover and housing, hermetic sealing of the sensitive amplifier at the core of the microphone, and dual gold plating of the diaphragm ensure maximum stability and performance under the toughest environmental conditions.
 
With the introduction of CORE by DPA technology, DPA's miniature and subminiature microphones have been tested* against the international standard IEC 60529:2013 edition 2.2: “Degrees of protection provided by enclosures (IP Code)” resulting in a IP58 rating:
 
First digit: Solid particle protection = class 5
Ingress of dust does not interfere with the functionality of the microphone and will produce no permanent harmful effects.
 
Second digit: Liquid ingress protection = class 8
Submersion of the microphone into one meter of water for three hours will produce no permanent harmful effects. Note that the frequency response and sensitivity will be naturally affected by the water during submersion.

All DPA d:screet™ , d:fine™ and d:vote™ series microphones with CORE by DPA technology are IP58 certified.
 
*The test was carried out by Force Technology, a third party, certified institute in Denmark.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Copied from http://www.dsmt.com/resources/ip-rating-chart/ (http://www.dsmt.com/resources/ip-rating-chart/)

Ingress Protection (IP rating) and what it means
The IP Code (or International Protection Rating, sometimes also interpreted as Ingress Protection Rating*) consists of the letters IP followed by two digits and an optional letter. As defined in international standard IEC 60529, it classifies the degrees of protection provided against the intrusion of solid objects (including body parts like hands and fingers), dust, accidental contact, and water in electrical enclosures. The standard aims to provide users more detailed information than vague marketing terms such as waterproof.

The digits (characteristic numerals) indicate conformity with the conditions summarized in the tables below. For example, an electrical socket rated IP22 is protected against insertion of fingers and will not be damaged or become unsafe during a specified test in which it is exposed to vertically or nearly vertically dripping water. IP22 or 2X are typical minimum requirements for the design of electrical accessories for indoor use.

*Explanation of the letters IP is given in IEC 60529 (Ed. 2.1), clause 4.1

First Digit: Solids
The first digit indicates the level of protection that the enclosure provides against access to hazardous parts (e.g., electrical conductors, moving parts) and the ingress of solid foreign objects.

Level   Object size protected against   Effective against
0   Not protected   No protection against contact and ingress of objects
1   >50mm   Any large surface of the body, such as the back of the hand, but no protection against deliberate contact with a body part.
2   >12.5mm   Fingers or similar objects.
3   >2.5mm   Tools, thick wires, etc.
4   >1mm   Most wires, screws, etc.
5   Dust Protected   Ingress of dust is not entirely prevented, but it must not enter in sufficient quantity to interfere with the satisfactory operation of the equipment; complete protection against contact.
6   Dust Tight   No ingress of dust; complete protection against contact.
 

Second Digit: Liquids
Protection of the equipment inside the enclosure against harmful ingress of water.

Level   Object size protected against   Effective against
0   Not protected   –
1   Dripping water   Dripping water (vertically falling drops) shall have no harmfull effect.
2   Dripping water when tilted up to 15°   Vertically dripping water shall have no harmful effect when the enclosure is tilted at an angle up to 15° from its normal position.
3   Spraying water   Water falling as a spray at any angle up to 60° from the vertical shall have no harmful effect.
4   Splashing water   Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect.
5   Water jets   Water projected by a nozzle (6.3mm) against enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects.
6   Powerful water jets   Water projected in powerful jets (12.5mm nozzle) against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects.
7   Immersion up to 1m   Ingress of water in harmful quantity shall not be possible when the enclosure is immersed in water under defined conditions of pressure and time (up to 1 m of submersion).
8   Immersion beyond 1m   The equipment is suitable for continuous immersion in water under conditions which shall be specified by the manufacturer. Normally, this will mean that the equipment is hermetically sealed. However, with certain types of equipment, it can mean that water can enter but only in such a manner that it produces no harmful effects.
[/b]
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: furburger on May 26, 2019, 03:31:39 PM
if you don't mind looking like an idiot (which of course I've never had a problem with)...a wide brimmed hat or two ball caps, one brim over each ear, has always worked for me.


and put the 'ghetto rain coat' (garbage bag with 3 holes) on BEFORE starting the recorder....if those are too crinkly, find a soft rain poncho that makes little noise.
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: jerryfreak on May 28, 2019, 09:57:19 PM
The word from Bruce Myers *regarding the 406x series (paraphrased, but asked of him multiple times, and answered directly to me):
To clean them, immerse them in distilled water, swizzle them to remove contaminants, shake them out, plug them in to assist in drying.

They'll be deaf until they're dried out. So make sure that you have that kind of lead time built into any equation.

*edit - adding clarity

plugging in wet mics is terrifying to me

i miss bruce, was always so accessible
Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: Gutbucket on May 29, 2019, 10:17:41 AM
..plug them in to assist in drying.

plugging in wet mics is terrifying to me

I expect plugging them in will neither hurt, nor expedite the process by much.

The current cleaning recommendations published on the DPA website outline the same process described by Bruce, with the exclusion of plugging them in.  The extent to which plugging them in expedites dying is related to waste heat from power dissipation through the microphone, which is rather miniscule. Consider how long the battery in a battery box lasts powering a pair, which is an indication of how low the power draw is. 

In most cases, as soon as you shake out the water from the grid/housing the microphone will operate correctly.  Water is kept from entering the capsule itself by way of static pressure in combination with the size of the super tiny holes in the face of the small rectangular gold element inside the housing.  Creating a low humidity environment around them by packing them with desiccant packs or rice after shaking them out / patting them dry is good practice to make certain they are completely dried.

Title: Re: stealth taping -- rain
Post by: opsopcopolis on July 03, 2019, 10:40:36 AM
Welp, looks like I'll be stealthing in the rain tonight. Wish me luck :shrug: