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Author Topic: ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations  (Read 3921 times)

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Offline mmmatt

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2004, 12:16:03 PM »
I'm not trying to be contradictory... just trying to understand.  Are you saying that you are bypassing the preamp, by turning the knob back? Or maybe the preamp is cleaner at the lowest level?  And also, not that this necessarily made the difference for your test, but the mxb only provides 24v phantom with a/c power.
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline nickgregory

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2004, 12:47:48 PM »
I'm not trying to be contradictory... just trying to understand.  Are you saying that you are bypassing the preamp, by turning the knob back? Or maybe the preamp is cleaner at the lowest level?  And also, not that this necessarily made the difference for your test, but the mxb only provides 24v phantom with a/c power.

no problem...definitely not trying to be argumentative either.  I am bypassing the preamp because by going in line level (1/8' inputs) and adjusting the levels on the outside device (to your point, providing no gain with the mixer) was cleaner to my ears.  It is very likely that this device, like the MP2 for example, sounds much better, and different when gain is applied.

Good point on the phantom...I was under the impressioni that when AC is provided that a full 48V was provided...since that was not the case, then absolutely that would have affected my test.

Another comment on that topic though as well, keep in mind that I am feeding the mixer line level signals from the mics and the board, and using the sliders to apply minimal attenuation/gain to get the mix right.  The output from the mixer is going out to my A/D which is where I am boosting the signal fed from the mixer...basically I am attempting to avoid all gain with the mixer, and just trying to use it as a channel mixer, feeding line level signals in, and line level signals out, using the SBM1 to bump it up to get acceptable levels.

The reason I am doing this is strictly because in listening at home, (testing in front of the stereo), it sounded to me like the gain from the behringer applied a bit of a "grainy" quality to the sound.  I am hopeful that by running everything at line levels in a live environment, will limit the graininess, so to speak.  I believe that what I am hearing is accurate as well with regards to the more gain applied, the bigger the impact on the sound, because the same is true with the MP2, which is why I run that at the lowest level and adjust levels on the SBM1.

Hope that helps explain better.  All of these assumptions of mine may be proven to be completely off base tonight though...we will have to see.

Nick

Offline mmmatt

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2004, 01:11:11 PM »
Thank you, that does help.  I think you have this all thought out quite well!  I doubt you'll get anything but a great recording tonight!  I have a oade mod ua5 on the way, and I was thinking of using this between the board and my jb3 to get better a/d results (and stand-alone for just mic recording), but I'm not all together convinced that the jb3 front-end is that bad (I'm sure there are a million threads on that one here!).  I may find a use for it the way you are using your mp-2, although it's just a digi-mod, and won't be as great of a difference as what you'll get from your mp-2.  Hmm... I'll have to try a few tests next week after I get it.

Good luck tonight!

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline nickgregory

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2004, 01:13:23 PM »
Thanks, I will post back the success or utter failure story later tonight 8)

Offline mmmatt

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2004, 10:36:28 PM »
well?  inquiring minds want to know?  Did it work out?

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline nickgregory

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2004, 11:44:43 PM »
worked great, I will post a more detailed review tomorrow, along with a link to sound clips!

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2004, 04:06:01 PM »
OK, so as stated above, I am really happy with the way the mixer worked out.  Here is a detailed explanation of what/how I ran for those that care

SBD Feed

Ran XLRf out of the board to 1/4" in on channel 1 (left) and channel 2 (right).

Matrix AUD Feed

I ran MG200s (DIN) -> Zaolla Silverlines -> MP2 -> XLR F outs -> 1/4" into channel 3(left) and channel 4(right) of the mixer.  For both the AUD and SBD inputs, I balanced them appropriately corresponding to the channel they were feeding

Side note, I also ran the mini out of the MP2 to a spare M1 to give me a backup in case things went wrong.

Out of Mixer

I ran 1/4" out of the Behringer MXB1002 -> RCA male -> Mod SBM1 -> D100.

Once I did all of this, I worked with the sound guy to run the house music through the PA, so that I could play with the inputs to get the correct levels.  I ended up starting with the AUD sliders at around -15 db and the SBD sliders at 0, and the output of the mixer at 0.  In both cases, the gain knobs were not used...the levels were adjusted outside of the mixer and resulted in a line level input being fed.  My intent was to boost the levels on the SBM1 to get appropriate levels.  Once the show started, I set the SBM immediately to get good recording levels.  After that, in listening to the first couple of songs, I ended up backing off the AUD input to -20 db with the only other change being that I increased the SBM1 gain (or attenuated it less, based on the method that the SBM1 uses).  What I got is a pretty good mix, especially based on the fact that at points when I knew the crowd was chatty, they still sound in the "background" so to speak of the tape.  

I have uploaded the tape to the archive, for those interested in samples:

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=11894

I would recommend Running Free and Americana Motel to give you an appreciation for the different song dynamics.

Bottom line, for the money, I definitely like the functionality of this mixer.

Nick

Offline mmmatt

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2004, 09:21:48 AM »
Seems like your plan worked great Nick!!!  I'll dl the files and check out the sound later today.  Just out of curiosity, where did you have your mics?  On stage or back by the board.  How far were they from the pa?
Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2004, 09:36:16 AM »
Seems like your plan worked great Nick!!!  I'll dl the files and check out the sound later today.  Just out of curiosity, where did you have your mics?  On stage or back by the board.  How far were they from the pa?
Matt

there is a fixed pole at the TS in the pour house, and I am guessing my mics were in the 25'-30' away range

Offline mmmatt

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2004, 09:39:58 AM »
scratch that question... I read the txt file!
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline mmmatt

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2004, 09:57:46 AM »
I've been using my mics on the outside points of the stage to avoid delay problems... I'll be real interested as to how this recording sounds with a 25 ft spread from the pa.  Based on the speed of sound there should be about a 25 ms delay between your mics and sbd feed.  There are big advantages to being set up like you were, as long as the delay issue isn't there.  Most of the time the foh guy will let me use his snakes to get on stage, although I carry 240 ft. of cable with me jic.  I've set up both behind the stage and on the front of the stage.  The behind stage setup was my most recent attempt and so far my best effort.  In a small club, the drums aren't very loud in the mix.  The time I set up back stage really did a lot to bring that stuff out.  At one point in the 1st set (this was a recording of a friends band and he primarily just wanted the 2nd and 3rd sets) I dropped the sbd feed all the way out to see how the mics sounded, then did the same with the the mic feed.  It was amazing how the mics almost perfectly filled in the missing frequencys from the sbd feed.  I originally miced the stage corners based on a recomendation from Doug Oade.
Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline nickgregory

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2004, 10:04:19 AM »
I've been using my mics on the outside points of the stage to avoid delay problems... I'll be real interested as to how this recording sounds with a 25 ft spread from the pa.  Based on the speed of sound there should be about a 25 ms delay between your mics and sbd feed.  There are big advantages to being set up like you were, as long as the delay issue isn't there.  Most of the time the foh guy will let me use his snakes to get on stage, although I carry 240 ft. of cable with me jic.  I've set up both behind the stage and on the front of the stage.  The behind stage setup was my most recent attempt and so far my best effort.  In a small club, the drums aren't very loud in the mix.  The time I set up back stage really did a lot to bring that stuff out.  At one point in the 1st set (this was a recording of a friends band and he primarily just wanted the 2nd and 3rd sets) I dropped the sbd feed all the way out to see how the mics sounded, then did the same with the the mic feed.  It was amazing how the mics almost perfectly filled in the missing frequencys from the sbd feed.  I originally miced the stage corners based on a recomendation from Doug Oade.
Matt

interesting idea to mic behind the stage....my problem is that most bands that I tape have lyrics, and if I ran on stage I would not get those, or very muffled and I am concerned that the mix would be unnatural without some "room ambience."

with regards to the delay, I am pretty sure I could not go much further back without it becoming an issue.  I "think" that inside of 30 ft, the ms of required delay is not as noticeable because it can be concealed by room acoustics...outside of that I think I would have an issue.  Just my perceptions though, we will see as I get more experience with the setup.

Offline mmmatt

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2004, 10:24:50 AM »
In my initial attempt to get info on matrix recordings I had some people tell me that within 25ft was ok, and some said within 10ft.  Doug said 10ft (man, I wish I had that guys experience!).  If it is there it will sound like a reverb, or echo.  The room ambiance was slighted with the behind stage setup... Not completly, but I really had to lift the sliders between songs to get any crowd reaction.  As for the vocals, that is what is usually prominant in the sbd feed, so you usually want less of thoes from your mics anyway.  The "typical" sbd-to-aud ratio is somewhere around 60-70% sbd and 40-30% aud.  For someone who has the quality of mics that you do, and assumably the taste for a good aud recording, you may want that ratio reversed, in which case you gain great advantage with the setup you used.  There are so many factors to cosider when doing this type of recording.  The band, the room, the bands stage volume, the guy running the main board, mic location, overall room volume, room noise, etc...  Every situation is different. It can be really fun/challanging!!!!  
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline mmmatt

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2004, 05:08:58 PM »
FANTASTIC recording Nick!!!! Excelent work!  If there were any delay issues, maybe some of the faster moving mando runs were a bit muddied, but that just as easily could have been the guys fingers, or the room.  Unnoticable unless you are looking for it, and even then it may have just been me trying to find SOMETHING wrong with that recording.  I've just listened to the 2nd set so far... even busted out the sennheisers... The soundstage, the mix from the board, and everything you did was absolutly top notch.  If I ever figure out how to +T you... I will!  Great job.  
     Great band too.  That is the first time I've heard them.  So many great bands on the sceen these days!  Good time to be a jamband fan!

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline nickgregory

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Re:ISO Battery Powered Mixer Recommendations
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2004, 06:18:11 PM »
FANTASTIC recording Nick!!!! Excelent work!  If there were any delay issues, maybe some of the faster moving mando runs were a bit muddied, but that just as easily could have been the guys fingers, or the room.  Unnoticable unless you are looking for it, and even then it may have just been me trying to find SOMETHING wrong with that recording.  I've just listened to the 2nd set so far... even busted out the sennheisers... The soundstage, the mix from the board, and everything you did was absolutly top notch.  If I ever figure out how to +T you... I will!  Great job.  
     Great band too.  That is the first time I've heard them.  So many great bands on the sceen these days!  Good time to be a jamband fan!

Matt

Thanks Matt.  And on the mando runs, you are right, that is probably the only spot it is noticeable, but on the AUD tapes I have made in that room it is muddy as well....so that being said, not serious enough for me to concern myself with delay  ;D

Thanks though, and +t to you...

 

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