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Author Topic: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features  (Read 14581 times)

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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2011, 03:52:56 PM »

Gain has always been digital in previous models. Reducing the level below 100 to keep the meters under 0 dB does not prevent distortion (at least on the H4 and H2).


This is not true! There is a three position analog gain switch on the side of the original H2 and then there is the digital gain. I almost never used the digital gain and just went with the closest switch position. Recording at 24 bit I could amplify it later.

I've all sorts of crap from all sorts of people about the H2 that isn't true. I've heard a lot of people call it a flimsy piece of crap but mine has been cranking along for four years and has been out on loan several times. It has has not been handled with kid gloves and it still works fine. The biggest drawback of the original is the crappy external mic input. I've run plenty of external mics through preamps into the line in port with no problems. And yes, I have gotten good recordings with the unit. I rarely use it myself anymore as I prefer my R-44 but I keep it as a backup. I wouldn't compare it to a more expensive recorder, you get what you pay for (hopefully), but it isn't as bad as all the detractors make it out to be.

At the current time though I would recommend that a newbie look around before purchasing in this price range simply because there are a whole bunch more available now. Four years ago this was the cheapest digital recorder on the market.
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X3)
STUFF: Henry Eng Patchbox I & II, A&H ZED-22fx, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 04:10:53 PM »

The configuration of the mics seems to be the same as was first announced for the H2, but production models of the H2 lacked the MS facility. 


I don't think so Peter. First off there are now five mics and the two stereo pairs seem to be both 90 degree XY. 
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X3)
STUFF: Henry Eng Patchbox I & II, A&H ZED-22fx, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2011, 12:36:52 AM »
Quote
First off there are now five mics and the two stereo pairs seem to be both 90 degree XY.
As far as I can judge from the videos and the press release, on the front face there is an MS array comprising one forward-facing mic plus a pair of side facing mics back to back imitating a fig of 8 mic, hopefully all three mounted in a column vertically for phase coherence.  On the rear face there's a phase coherent 90 degree pair definitely mounted one above the other. 

You have at least five if not six or even seven output options - the knob on the top selects four options with the sub-options for MS dematrixing or not set in the display using the jog button.

- MS recorded from the front array dematrixed to L/R (two tracks recorded)
- MS recorded from the front array undematrixed ("Raw" they call it) with one track "mid" and the other track "side" for altering width in your DAW later, or in the unit (two tracks recorded)
- XY from the rear pair only (two tracks)
- MS from the front plus XY from the rear, mixed down in the recorder to two recorded tracks (stereo), balanced using the display and job button.  Not a good option unless you don't have a DAW for post-production.
- MS from the front plus XY from the rear, unmixed and recorded on four tracks.

It may be possible that the last option is actually two options, whereby the MS array would be recorded either dematrixed or undematrixed (raw) onto two tracks, with the XY recorded onto the other two tracks.  And, if you use the MS option with the side signal right down, you've essentially got a mono recording off the front-facing mic, which could be useful for interviews, and you could regard that as a seventh option.

For acoustic music in reverberant spaces these options should provide considerable flexibility, especially using a DAW after to vary the mix as required.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 12:38:59 AM by Ozpeter »

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2011, 08:29:12 AM »
I think I was wrong in that I didn't que in on the "As first announced" part. I do seem to remember that at first the planned on five mics for the H2 and the production model went down to four.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X3)
STUFF: Henry Eng Patchbox I & II, A&H ZED-22fx, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables

Offline dogmusic

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2011, 08:53:17 AM »

For acoustic music in reverberant spaces these options should provide considerable flexibility, especially using a DAW after to vary the mix as required.

I seem to remember in the H2 thread that you recommended a software for mixing in 4 channels and then burning it to a DVD disc in 5.1, but I believe it was for PC only. Have you heard of one for Mac?
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2011, 07:20:13 PM »
Quote
I seem to remember in the H2 thread that you recommended a software for mixing in 4 channels and then burning it to a DVD disc in 5.1, but I believe it was for PC only. Have you heard of one for Mac?
Hmm.  I don't think I would have made any recommendations re 5.1 as I always use plain stereo, but you might care to have a look at the beta version of Reaper 4, or the new Mac version of Adobe Audition - but stick to the demo versions before spending money on something that might not do the job.

Offline dogmusic

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2011, 01:32:51 PM »
Quote
I seem to remember in the H2 thread that you recommended a software for mixing in 4 channels and then burning it to a DVD disc in 5.1, but I believe it was for PC only. Have you heard of one for Mac?
Hmm.  I don't think I would have made any recommendations re 5.1 as I always use plain stereo, but you might care to have a look at the beta version of Reaper 4, or the new Mac version of Adobe Audition - but stick to the demo versions before spending money on something that might not do the job.

I guess I was thinking of someone else. Thanks for the info.
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline wipeman

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2011, 04:42:51 AM »
Quote
First off there are now five mics and the two stereo pairs seem to be both 90 degree XY.
As far as I can judge from the videos and the press release, on the front face there is an MS array comprising one forward-facing mic plus a pair of side facing mics back to back imitating a fig of 8 mic, hopefully all three mounted in a column vertically for phase coherence.  On the rear face there's a phase coherent 90 degree pair definitely mounted one above the other. 

You have at least five if not six or even seven output options - the knob on the top selects four options with the sub-options for MS dematrixing or not set in the display using the jog button.

- MS recorded from the front array dematrixed to L/R (two tracks recorded)
- MS recorded from the front array undematrixed ("Raw" they call it) with one track "mid" and the other track "side" for altering width in your DAW later, or in the unit (two tracks recorded)
- XY from the rear pair only (two tracks)
- MS from the front plus XY from the rear, mixed down in the recorder to two recorded tracks (stereo), balanced using the display and job button.  Not a good option unless you don't have a DAW for post-production.
- MS from the front plus XY from the rear, unmixed and recorded on four tracks.

It may be possible that the last option is actually two options, whereby the MS array would be recorded either dematrixed or undematrixed (raw) onto two tracks, with the XY recorded onto the other two tracks.  And, if you use the MS option with the side signal right down, you've essentially got a mono recording off the front-facing mic, which could be useful for interviews, and you could regard that as a seventh option.

For acoustic music in reverberant spaces these options should provide considerable flexibility, especially using a DAW after to vary the mix as required.

Add another option to that list... according to the review linked below it is possible to record using the MS capsules AND from an external mic at the same time, a feature missing from the original H2. It seems that when in 4ch mode, plugging in an external mic will override the XY capsules only. There would presumably only be the format restriction of being limited to 44.1/48kHz, 16/24bit when in 4ch mode, but that's no problem for me. This would be very useful indeed.

http://www.drivebyhighfive.net/2011/08/26/a-new-audio-toy-reviewing-the-zoom-h2n-recorder/

It also sounds like the external mic input is pretty good (listen to the sound samples of the Rode condenser mic).

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2011, 10:16:14 PM »
Interesting!

Mine has been shipped and due here 7th Sept - obviously I will give some impressions here as soon as I can.

Edit - just listened to the samples in the review in the preceding post (thanks for that link) and I'm very impressed.  They certainly seem to have the mic input sorted out (compared to the original H2).    A direct comparison with the M10 is going to be interesting.

If the internal mics are as good as they appear to be, then perhaps this will open up novel ways of working - for instance, ok, it's got no balanced mic inputs, but if using it as a mic, you should be able to record using a remote device connected via its line output connected via a single mic cable via suitable adapters at each end to send left right and common instead of hot cold common - balancing should not be an issue over moderate distances at line level.  Record on the H2N itself and also on the remote device for redundancy.

And the ability to record MS plus two external mics gives rise to the possibility of using it as a main pair with a couple of spot mics, a configuration which covers a lot of the requirements for chamber music recording.   Battery powered systems can often manage remarkably well in unbalanced mode.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 11:05:08 PM by Ozpeter »

Offline fguidry

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2011, 12:31:16 AM »
I've done some comparos between the H2n, H2, and a pretty good stationary rig consisting of a Rode NT4 and Echo Audiofire: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/09/01/second-look-at-the-h2n-external-mics-and-line-in/

Basically I'd say the big boost in battery life is the most important change. The continuously variable mic gain in the analog domain is nice but I got along with the HML switch pretty well. I'm hearing a slight improvement in self-noise but still some distance from the NT4/Echo setup.

And I did some tests with the NT4 going in as an external mic, then did a comparison between the H2n line in and the H2: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/09/01/second-look-at-the-h2n-external-mics-and-line-in/

The external mic can be used as part of the four channel scheme, but the external mic gain is very low and there's no way to adjust the relative gain between the internal and external mic. And the line in is basically the same - over sensitive - as the H2 line in. It's now combined with the mic jack, but when the gain is turned to 0 it acts just like the separate line in on the H2.

Fran


Offline Ozpeter

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2011, 12:31:04 AM »
Also posted on the Zoom forums so don't bother to read if you've read it there -

Mine has arrived, and I'm in love.  I think they've made a great job of it.  In a very quick test, stereo imaging with MS is excellent - walking round the mic announcing "middle, 45 degrees, 90 degrees" etc came up very well on headphones (ie replayed position was as described, pinpoint).  I also did a quick test of the handling of lower frequencies by means of a crude recording in front of a speaker system which has a subwoofer that rather exaggerates the bottom end, and again on headphones what played back was what I'd heard through my own ears.  It's certainly not thin sounding.  Noise - did a test recording of a very quiet sound in a quiet room (hum from a UPS actually) and then replayed it in headphones so that the level heard through my own ears was the same as the level on the recording, and there was no significant noise added.  Of course if you turn the level up unnaturally, you'll hear some noise, but for music recording that's not a requirement.  Playback should always equal originally heard level to avoid skewing the perceived frequency response.  For nature recording of course that rule need not be followed.

Only downside is that there's no pause button as such.  Your choices are
- to stop recording and start a new file after the period when you would have paused
- to use the "pause on mark" function which does pause when you press the play (mark) button, but then you can't place a mark without pausing
- to use the remote, which does have a dedicated pause button.

The other thing which puzzled me was how to display the levels before recording.  When you turn the device on, it's doing that already, and likewise when you stop recording it carries on monitoring.   But when you play back, you find yourself in the playback screen with no monitoring.  Answer is to press and hold the "menu" button, which then displays the "home" screen which is actually the screen which displays levels prior to recording.

That apart, I like the controls and it's all very simple to use.  Display is fine even though the resolution is fairly low - it does the job.  Metering is good (nice long scale) though there is no way to clear the overload indicators without stopping recording.  Not the only device which has that design fault.

More to follow when I have completed some other urgent matters!  Damn, I want to play with this thing...

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2011, 10:51:26 PM »
For the record, the level on the H2N which corresponds to the "M 100" level on the H2 seems to be around 4.  So that's a good setting to start with when recording acoustic music.

Offline kleiner Rainer

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Why Sony chose omnis for the M10 (probably)
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2011, 04:21:26 AM »
Hi all,

maybe Sony chose omnis, because they are much less sensitive to wind and grip noise than cardioids. Cardioids also need access holes to the backside of the capsule, because they work as pressure GRADIENT transducers, omnis are pressure transducers. There is not enough space in the M10 to acommodate the elastic, grip-noise deadening suspension that cardioids need to operate properly. Omnis are much more forgiving in this regard.

For interviews, the M10 is excellent. I also used my M10 in a pinch for stereo recordings. The result is not the optimum possible, but it sounds quite good for an "emergency recording".

I used a H2, but the build quality of the M10 (and the D50, which i also own) is far better.

Greetings,

Rainer
recording steam trains since 1985

Offline fotoralf.be

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2011, 05:27:07 PM »
Is there any software available for Mac that makes it simple to convert 4 tracks, such as from this H2n as well as the Tascam DR-2d, into surround sound audio DVD's?

There is indeed. And quite a choice.

Have a look at David Courville's Zoom to Five plugin. This is originally intended for the H2 but should also work with the 4-channel recordings from the H2n. I use it in Twisted Wave which is the least expensive Mac audio software capable of multichannel work and a really good one at that.

You might also try Zoom's own Vortex Zoom Encoder, again meant for the H2 and H4n, but I expect it should also work with material from the H2n.

Ralf
Panoramic photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog: http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

Offline dogmusic

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Re: New Zoom? H2n, has some interesting selecable pattern features
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2011, 07:53:18 PM »
Is there any software available for Mac that makes it simple to convert 4 tracks, such as from this H2n as well as the Tascam DR-2d, into surround sound audio DVD's?

There is indeed. And quite a choice.

Have a look at David Courville's Zoom to Five plugin. This is originally intended for the H2 but should also work with the 4-channel recordings from the H2n. I use it in Twisted Wave which is the least expensive Mac audio software capable of multichannel work and a really good one at that.

You might also try Zoom's own Vortex Zoom Encoder, again meant for the H2 and H4n, but I expect it should also work with material from the H2n.

Ralf

Excellent information! Thanks, Ralf.

Best,

Phillip
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

 

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