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Author Topic: on-stage taping  (Read 35902 times)

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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #135 on: May 21, 2013, 11:51:35 AM »
Sounds nice. I did spy this "Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)" Why are you recording 16 bit?
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X3)
STUFF: Henry Eng Patchbox I & II, A&H ZED-22fx, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #136 on: May 21, 2013, 11:58:09 AM »
Sounds nice. I did spy this "Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)" Why are you recording 16 bit?

It's easier for me to record in 16 bit. I have an old computer that chokes on big files.

I also believe that 16 bit captures all the information necessary for a good audio recording. I do understand the advantage in having 24bit masters for big mixdowns etc... But, they take up a lot more space for storage too.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:05:48 PM by Chuck »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #137 on: May 21, 2013, 12:32:49 PM »
Sounds nice. I did spy this "Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)" Why are you recording 16 bit?

It's easier for me to record in 16 bit. I have an old computer that chokes on big files.

I also believe that 16 bit captures all the information necessary for a good audio recording. I do understand the advantage in having 24bit masters for big mixdowns etc... But, they take up a lot more space for storage too.

I thought that maybe file size might be the reason. Time for a new computer! Easy for me to say, I know. And yes, at the right levels 16 bit isn't bad but 24 bit is your friend. Big hard drives are cheap now and just about any computer made in the last six years (or more!) can handle the files. You record nice music and you only get one shot when recording live music so why restrict yourself? I'm not meaning to criticize, just to encourage you!
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Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X3)
STUFF: Henry Eng Patchbox I & II, A&H ZED-22fx, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #138 on: May 21, 2013, 12:39:28 PM »
Yeah, I know. My playback system isn't the best either, so it's not a priority for me to go to 24 bit.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #139 on: May 21, 2013, 12:46:59 PM »
Yeah, I know. My playback system isn't the best either, so it's not a priority for me to go to 24 bit.

The best thing I did for playback was get some small self-powered studio monitors. Check the reviews but they can be had for as low as $100. You would be amazed at the difference it can make in editing and listening to your recordings even when tied into a passable computer audio card. Mine are 18watt Fostex I got from Chris Church and while they wont make an audiophile drool they sound pretty damn good! Good enough that I hardly ever fire up my home stereo anymore.
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X3)
STUFF: Henry Eng Patchbox I & II, A&H ZED-22fx, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #140 on: May 21, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
My "man cave" DAW playback is a pair of the old Tannoy Reveals (the redwine colored ones). They are passive and I power them with an old Cambridge Audio amp ToddR turned me onto. I also have a cheap Polk subwoofer connected that I use to gauge how strong the bass is on recordings. So, it's not a horrible playback system. The small bedroom dimensions are the real limiting factor, as there are huge swings in bass response depending on where I sit. But, it's what I've got...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #141 on: May 21, 2013, 01:07:12 PM »
I seem to spend my waking hours at home right in front of the computer so the small monitors actually work out better for me than the stereo. Besides, I have so much junk in the living room now that it blocks one of the Klipsh speakers so that is hardly an optimal listening set up. Maybe I should clean the house. NAH!
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X3)
STUFF: Henry Eng Patchbox I & II, A&H ZED-22fx, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #142 on: May 21, 2013, 01:10:32 PM »
Yeah, I have a big playback system in the living room and rarely play music through it. It serves as my 5.1 playback system for movies and TV now.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #143 on: May 21, 2013, 01:15:05 PM »
I have another building on my property and am thinking of building a deck between the two places and using the older one as a studio of sorts. Not a recording studio but a place where I can set up a better listening environment, store my gear, etc. Plus I have a degree in art and I want to get back to that one day. The other building would be great for that.
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X3)
STUFF: Henry Eng Patchbox I & II, A&H ZED-22fx, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables

Offline rigpimp

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #144 on: May 28, 2013, 03:15:50 AM »
I record mostly acoustic music so I run predominantly on stage or at the lip.  For a long time I preferred to run XY since I was always so close to the source and soon moved to ORTF for the exaggerated separation for wider arrangements.  Now my mic technique is set by eye and ear based on the way everything sounds and how it is set up.

Some of my best recordings are of unamplified string bands (Foghorn Stringband immediately comes to mind) that play seated in a semi-circle with my mics in the middle.  (You just have to keep the Sammy from stomping on the wood floor)  I can't wait to run M/S in that situation!

Here are some of my LMA-friendly pulls:

Acoustic on stage:
http://archive.org/details/dbern2007-11-28.kreider.skm140.v3.flacf
http://archive.org/details/hp2012-06-16.8040.kreider
http://archive.org/details/fmg2007-02-08.kreider.NeumannSKM140

Electric at the lip:
http://archive.org/details/dtb2004-01-22.neumanns.shnf
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10
Playback: McIntosh MC 2105 > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #145 on: October 20, 2014, 12:12:59 PM »
On Saturday I recorded three bands that all played on a big stage. I had a DIN pair center, on stage facing the band, a SBD feed plus my audience mics about 30 feet back. I had the hardest time trying to align them all. I've recorded in this place enough to know the MS delay between the AUD mics and the SBD feed, but it was hell trying to get the on-stage pair to match the SBD and AUD perfectly. I've recorded SBD and onstage at the same time and just onstage in the past, but I haven't recorded all three and tried to line them up.

I usually use snare drum rim hits to get the alignment right for SBD and AUD mixes, but it just didn't work perfectly well this time.

Do you guys have any thoughts on the best way to do this? I ended up getting it real close, but since the onstage mics picked the ambient sound of the snare hits plus the PA, it's a compromise at best... It does have a nice full sound to it, which I really like.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Jimna

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #146 on: October 20, 2014, 02:17:17 PM »
sometimes that delay between aud and sbd can become a nice natural reverb....
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Beauty is not love
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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #147 on: October 20, 2014, 02:29:10 PM »
Yeah, as it turned out, I really like the way it all sounds. There's a lot of depth to the recording now.

I'm just wondering if anyone has had the same experience trying to line up three sources, SBD, AUD and on-stage mics together and how they went about doing it. On stage there are so many things happening... to pick it all up with two onstage mics is not ideal, because the sources of the sound are all so spread out. I usually choose to sync the snare hits on the sources, because often, that's the loudest & sharpest source on-stage to sync to. Maybe someone has another method?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline acidjack

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2014, 02:38:19 PM »
Yeah, as it turned out, I really like the way it all sounds. There's a lot of depth to the recording now.

I'm just wondering if anyone has had the same experience trying to line up three sources, SBD, AUD and on-stage mics together and how they went about doing it. On stage there are so many things happening... to pick it all up with two onstage mics is not ideal, because the sources of the sound are all so spread out. I usually choose to sync the snare hits on the sources, because often, that's the loudest & sharpest source on-stage to sync to. Maybe someone has another method?

IME the onstage and the SBD are usually very close, so I will sync the non-onstage AUD to the SBD first, then, keeping the SBD and AUD constant, align the onstage only if I need to. I have found you can usually get away without lining up the onstage, but I will still do it.

Snare hits are my favorite, though spoken word (i.e., banter, particularly if it's just a short word or phrase) can also work since echo is easy to hear on it most of the time too.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2014, 03:23:34 PM »
Which brings up another question...
How picky are you guys about aligning sources?

It probably took me an hour to get the alignment on three sources right for this last batch. Once I had one set aligned, I used the same milli-sec offsets on the other two.

I agonize over it. I edit in CuBase which resolves to hundredths thousandths of a milli-second. I know that's probably ridiculous, but that's what I try to do.

I look at multiple places in the recording for several spots. For the initial attack of the snare, but I also try to match the actual WAV forms, so they're aligned best visually and also sound best. Guitar amps closely miced and basses that are DI'ed are also places I look for alignment.  I can often detect if a soundboard and the PA speakers are in absolute phase to each other too. It's surprising that they are not in phase sometimes. So, I notate the best alignment numbers I come up with and use those as starting points when I record again in the same spot at that venue.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 03:29:13 PM by Chuck »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

 

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