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Author Topic: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?  (Read 4952 times)

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Offline carlbeck

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Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« on: December 29, 2014, 07:42:06 AM »
Just a general question in regards to the sound of these units. I have an FP24, that I like & used to have a Mixpre, I can remember not liking the Mixpre except for the pretty lights but had different mics, I found it dark sounding at the time. I find the FP24 rather neutral now but I also sense something a little flat in regards to the sound vs my V2, almost like the window you're looking through is a little hazed vs crystal clean with the V2 (to coin a typical audiophile way to describe the sound) So I guess the question is, can anyone or has anyone really heard a difference between these three units or is it mostly in my head?
Also, as an aside, I don't see much emphasis on preamps around here anymore. Maybe that's becasue there are less options available or more people are concerned with the cleanest sound possible & enhancing in post. In the past, the infancy of this place, we used to argue the importance of the Grace pres vs the Oade pres vs the holy grail PSP2 vs the Sonosax, etc. lots of comps with lots of bragging rights. Now it almost seems like the preamp is just there & it's not as important to the overal sound (i.e. flavor) as it was in the past. Just a random thought I guess, sorry to ramble...
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2014, 03:56:45 PM »
Those are very valid points but I haven't seen many of the newer all in one solutions sounding as good as an external preamp without modification so I wonder if it's worth it just to sacrifice some weight. I know in my playback systems I can tell the difference between preamps & no preamp when using my DR680 as well as the difference in between preamps I've used in my recordings.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline willndmb

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2014, 04:27:19 PM »
Those are very valid points but I haven't seen many of the newer all in one solutions sounding as good as an external preamp without modification so I wonder if it's worth it just to sacrifice some weight. I know in my playback systems I can tell the difference between preamps & no preamp when using my DR680 as well as the difference in between preamps I've used in my recordings.
agreed
Of course Jon knows what people have bought but ultimately I don't feel most all in ones are better then external pres and even though I go for convince sometimes over quality the lb/tb sound better then the dr-60d alone.
In turn Ill be keeping my naiant boxes as long as possible now that they are discontinued and supply 48v for if/when I need it
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 06:52:03 PM »
Wait a minute, Jon. Are you trying to tell us that once the fundamental design elements are accounted for, that throwing some Reliable Exotica Polypropylene & Copper Foil caps in the signal path isn't going to turn water into gold? Why that's just rubbish and defies all taperssection logic. How dare you challenge our audiophile beliefs!

/sarcasm

I really love these kinds of debates and I'm sure (hoping, actually) that this thread will spiral out of control. :)

IMO, it would behoove us all to idealize preamps as being sonically equivalent if/when their performance specifications are the same. A preamp should have one job; to amply the input equally at all frequencies (somewhat of a generalization). They shouldn't impart a 'flavor,' otherwise they are doing more than just amplification and thus, not an ideal preamp. If you want to adjust flavors, there are far better means to do so, namely using different microphones or post-processing.

There's a lot of snake-oil in the preamp business and far too much emphasis placed on their sonic importance in the signal chain. I own a lot of preamps... far more than what is reasonable. I also build just as many on my own, but I learned a long time ago that accumulating them to have a 'box of crayons' as the metaphor goes was the wrong reason. As Jon states, I'm not able to predict which 'flavor' would be best in a given situation and even if I could, there are numerous other factors that play a much larger role in achieving 'ultimate quality.' Over the years, I've learned that as long as a preamp's specifications are 'reasonably close' to ideal specifications, features such as powering efficiency or source options, inputs/outputs, form factor, metering, etc. are all far more important than "how does this preamp sound."

As to the original question, when there are transformers involved sonic testing can be important, but I believe that all three of those units use the same Lundahl transformers. There might be some differences, but these units are now too old for me to remember or care to research. In short, transformers are not an ideal component in the signal path and create distortion / artifacts. Sometimes this can pleasing to the ear, but transformers are prohibitively expensive components to audition, often costing $100 or more per unit, and the design considerations for why they used in the past are of far less importance today. In essence, transformers have been and always will be a non-ideal workaround.

YMMV
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 06:56:46 PM by hi and lo »

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2014, 07:37:47 PM »
If this was on another site, the out of control spiral would already have begun. ;)

 

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2014, 08:51:23 PM »
While both of you know way more than I ever will in regards to construction & theroy of preamps there is the sound that we all hear differently. Speaking for myself I can certainly detect a difference with a preamp & without as well as with different preamps in my rig over my playback sources. While in most cases it is hard to predict which crayon out of the box of crayons to use (I really like that analogy btw) some of us myself included record the same band in the same venues multiple times per year over the course of a number of years. While the sound does change from night to night based on various variables essentially we do know what to expect from a particular band in that venue barring any anomalies in general terms. In other words I know what Widespread Panic sounds like in this venue & I've already taped them there before so going in I already have an idea of where I'm going to set up, which mic's, capsules & preamps I'm going to use to get a recording as good as the one before. Of course this all goes out the window if the engineer is having a bad night, there are equipment problems or the venue has done something radically different as far as seating is concerned but again these are usually pretty consistent if you frequent the same venues for the same bands.

I also hope this conversation spirals out of control because I enjoy conversation in regards to different ideas & techniques in this hobby since I always learn something new. I also enjoy the input from professionals such as yourselves because it shows me the professional viewpoint on this insane hobby of ours, i.e. Taking multi thousand dollar condenser mocrophones in a dingy bar to record a crappy house monitor feed from a beer soaked SM57  :P
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2014, 11:54:54 PM »
Questions to Carlbeck for my own understanding, please.

Looks like you formerly used a SD702, but at some point went to a DR680 with a FP24 and a V2 preamp?    I may be mistaken, but I am under the impression that the FP24 and/or the MP-2 preamps are similar to the preamps in the SD702?  Are you trying to get back to where you were with the SD702 or what made you switch your recorders and preamps?  More channels?

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2014, 07:13:12 AM »
Questions to Carlbeck for my own understanding, please.

Looks like you formerly used a SD702, but at some point went to a DR680 with a FP24 and a V2 preamp?    I may be mistaken, but I am under the impression that the FP24 and/or the MP-2 preamps are similar to the preamps in the SD702?  Are you trying to get back to where you were with the SD702 or what made you switch your recorders and preamps?  More channels?
I'm sorry, to clarify, I ran Oade boxes for years, a 248 & 148 depending on which mics I was using. For a while I had Schoeps, AKG's & DPA's, V3 & MiniMe in the bag with the Oade preamps. After a while Doug built me a Fostex FR2 with an upgraded preamp & ADC, essentially he stuffed a 148 into the FR2 so I sold most of the preamps. After lusting after the pretty lights in the 7xx boxes I sold the FR2 & found the Aeta 4 channel pre since the PSP2's are/were impossible to find. I did a bunch of 4 channel matrix recordings back then because four channel decks were so expensive hence the Aeta mixer. In retrospect a lot of those recordings would have been better off just as two channels but that's how you learn. Eventually I sold everything when my daughter was born & took a 6 year break from taping.

When I came back here last year with the thoughts of building a cheap (ha! It always starts that way doesn't it?) rig to start taping again, aka see more music, I saw the trend of no preamps & all in one soloutions plus new active soloutions for the AKG's. I bought the DR680, AKG 61 caps & cables but was underwhelmed with the performance. Whether it was the fact that the body's were missing or the preamps weren't adequate in the 680 I added an Aerco to the chain which helped but something still wasn't there for me sound wise. So here I am, sold the actives, bought more mics, more preamps & now I run multiple sources for each show so I can pick which source I like best. This also allows me to try various mic configurations on one source for learning/experiment purposes while keeping a standard config or cap choice on the other so I know whatever the outcome I will have at least one good source when I get home. Also just for fun I have a pair of Berliner CM33's en route just to try another flavor of microphone, whether I purchase another preamp for those or stick to what I have remains to be seen but again those will be run as a separate source to comp against whatever else I run at the show. Finally, no, I don't feel the Fp24 sounds like the 7xx boxes & SD states that they are in fact different sounding as well. The 7xx preamps are very neutral sounding while the FP is a touch warmer, possibly darker & maybe fatter but that's hard to verify without a back to back comp IMO. 
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2014, 07:21:45 AM »
Edit*** Oops, somewhere in there I forgot to add my DSD experiments with a Korg MR1000 deck in between the FR2 & 702 or after? Not sure but I definitely feel DSD sounds better, it's just the file sizes that are hard to deal with plus the difficulty in post processing that I now finally believe in thanks to the many supporters found here.
Edit yet again**** sorry for the long rambling bio post above, disregard as necessary  :P
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2014, 11:29:34 AM »
This gives additional perspective on the question.  Thanks. 

I find myself thinking I should just buy a SD recorder, but then Gutbucket gets amazing results with his 680 so I admit to being as confused as ever. 

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2014, 01:03:10 PM »
One thing that I haven't been able to determine or even know if it's possible to determine is the ADC of the SD boxes vs the Tascam but my gut tells me the SD is superior based on my previous experiences. There's a quality to the SD boxes that imo is from the ADC. Never mind that the built quality & tactile feel is better with SD. In other words if SD made a stand alone ADC I'd probably put my money where my mouth is & buy it but much like preamp there is even less choices in that market, again I don't feel that is the proper approach but is probably again based on convenience more than anything else. Either way, I don't think you could go wrong with one of the SD recorders.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline voltronic

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2014, 01:29:33 PM »
IIRC, the FP24/MixPre/3 series uses Lundahl input transformers whereas the 7 series recorders do not.  I don't know about the 5 or 6 series.  Jon would be much better qualified to speak to the pros and cons of the two approaches.  SD states in their FAQs that the 7 series uses their best preamps, but also that they were given some additional freedom design wise by running off lithium batteries as opposed to AAs used in their field mixers.

While I would definitely love to have a 7 series recorder, I find the FP24 preamps to be very neutral and have very low noise when recording quiet sources.  I'm very happy with the FP24 / M10 combo.  That said, if I were to hit the lottery I would immediately buy a 788. ;)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2014, 01:33:28 PM »
..now I run multiple sources for each show so I can pick which source I like best. This also allows me to try various mic configurations on one source for learning/experiment purposes while keeping a standard config or cap choice on the other so I know whatever the outcome I will have at least one good source when I get home. Also just for fun I have a pair of Berliner CM33's en route just to try another flavor of microphone, whether I purchase another preamp for those or stick to what I have remains to be seen but again those will be run as a separate source to comp against whatever else I run at the show.
^^
This is key for me. From my perspective, the lion's share of where the most significant differences lie is in trying different microphone arrangements and different microphones.  That hasn't changed over time, but perhaps what has changed is that the other gear in the chain (meaning the input circuitry/preamps and ADCs in the recorders) has now reached the point where it has become 'good enough' that I no longer feel much need to concern myself very much with the 'sound' of that stuff.  It just needs to function correctly, be reliable and easily manageable.  I welcome being able to give up worrying about that portion so I can focus on the stuff that matters more.

Yeah I can notice a difference when I use an outboard preamp that performs better than the stock DR680 pres, but the difference is more subtle than it used to be, and that difference has become less valuable to me than things like the logistics of running the extra gear, especially if that has an influence on how or where I setup the microphones, plus I've become more skilled at making those difference less significant with appropriate post processing.

Carl, if you want to go the stand alone ADC route, I think there is currently a Mytek ADC in the yard now which I suspect would fair very well in comparison to a stand-alone SD unit, soundwise.  I've never used their ADCs but really love my Mytek DAC.  I use that DAC regularly; by contrast the V3 only gets used these days when I need it's ADC out to get 2 extra channels into the DR680.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2014, 01:53:07 AM »
I have always thought that preamps are an important part of the chain. I used to run a 722, and while the all-in-one was nice, I still ran an external preamp most of the time. But now that I have my Schoeps, I kind of "have" to run an external preamp for my KCY's, so for the long future, I will be running caps>KCY>preamp>recorder. And I love that analogy about the box of crayons lol ;) I also like having a few different pres in my arsenal. But my options are kind of limited since I only have KCY cables at the moment. I realize that I can get a pair of Jon's PFAs [which I NEED to do soon], and run any preamp I want to, but I'm very content with my VMS02ib and my KCY/OT LittleBox. Basically, what I'm saying is, I will probably run an external pre the rest of my taping life. But who knows what will be out by 2020? Maybe the nicest 4 channel all-in-one with KCY inputs will be a reality. Id surely give it a try haha 8)
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4 (MP) & MK 41V (MP) Capsules ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's X2 ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's x2 ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's x2 ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax 3.5mm | FiiO LC 2.5c 2.5mm ->
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2014, 02:02:10 AM »
Now if we were talking about ADCs, I couldn't agree anymore!!! I think that 10 years ago, if you didn't have a kickass ADC, you were screwed, because 90% of the recorders back then had HORRIBLE ADCs. Nowadays, I think running an external ADC like an AD2K or Mini Me or Mytek is complete overkill, unless you want that specific sound. Recorders have come a long way in regards to having a pretty kickass ADC. I would've NEVER thought that Id be using a $200 ADC/Recorder to record with ;) I was so used to POS ADCs like my old Sony D8 DATs and my old JB3, that it took me awhile to trust a handheld deck at the end of a multi thousand dollar rig lol 8)

And I only see decks ADCs improving over the next few years. I'm sure within 5 years, the decks will have killer ADCs ala the Sony D100, and external ADCs will be dirt cheap. Noone will want to lug around a huge ADC with another battery. And decks with digital inputs are getting harder and harder to find as well! Unless the new ADCs are about the size of an m10, I doubt they'll be too popular! Add to that the decks with digi ins are increasingly rarer, and I see a huge decline in external ADCs in the future. That's the least important part of the recording chain, and smaller is better nowadays ;)
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4 (MP) & MK 41V (MP) Capsules ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's X2 ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's x2 ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's x2 ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax 3.5mm | FiiO LC 2.5c 2.5mm ->
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
(Pentium i5/8gb RAM/256gb SSD)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2014, 08:35:11 AM »
Very valid points about the ADC in the newer decks, I'm sure they are much improved & it's probably not worth the additional weight of another box. Bean also raises a valid point about less decks being available with a digital input.
I looked at the Mytek in the yard, as tempting as it is I only have so much room in the bag. That thing is a beast I must say, impressive! Looks like I'll have to join the crowd & opt for convenience this time leaving room in the bag for more microphones...
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline jcb

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2015, 10:16:05 AM »
Quote
In ten years I don't expect portables to exist, and I'd expect a digital wireless standard for microphones to collapse both pro and consumer markets together.
I am curious to know how you imagine the chain then from the digital microphone to the file (I suppose) ? Direct from a wifi enabled mic to something like a tablet ?
If this was today, I imagine the nightmare a "Phish like" concert might be for tapers and sound people alike all fighting for frequencies... But technology has not yet said its last word I guess.

Offline jcb

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2015, 01:48:53 PM »
With today's easily available technology one could imagine the following chain to make the future almost present :
- a pair of mics (your choice)
- cables as needed
- Sound Devices MixPre-D - XLR in - USB out (would this be a new life for  a preamp+DAC package ?)
- Raspberry Pi running usbip (give access to the Pi's USB ports from the network) - USB in - USB wifi dongle out
- possibly a wifi router
- tablet or computer running something like audacity or whatever else
- batteries or power sockets as needed...
Neither very highly integrated, nor easy to set up and use but it should work !

Offline DATBRAD

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Re: Can you hear the difference between the FP24/MP-2/Mixpre?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 03:37:32 PM »
I know we are still way off topic, but I have to chime in with my reason for using outboard preamps. Ultimately it comes down to functionality for me, regardless of quality difference. I always make better recordings using outboard preamps than not.

Early in my concert taping career I ran a multi-mic rig with a mixer during a time when almost nobody used anything between mics and recorder, except battery phantom boxes that guys running condensers had. Back then I discovered a huge value being able to harness the signal ahead of the recorder. I liked how the sensitivity of the gain pot on the recorder was eased by taking line-in.

Every portable recorder I have ever owned since, cassette, DAT, solid state, has had an input gain sweet spot range where the deck performed best. For myself, I have been unable to find a better way to keep the level of the signal to the recorder's line-in within that range than using an outboard preamp. For this reason I expect I will always use outboard preamps.....
AKG C460B w/CK61/CK63>Luminous Monarch XLRs>SD MP-1(x2)>Luminous Monarch XLRs>PMD661(Oade WMOD)

Beyer M201>Luminous Monarch XLRs>PMD561 (Oade CMOD)

 

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