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Author Topic: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?  (Read 3751 times)

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Offline MrSqwubbsy

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Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« on: February 20, 2015, 07:21:42 AM »
Hi,
I'm using the aforementioned mics into a Sony PC-M10 and getting excellent recordings that are somewhat bassy nonetheless. Incidentally I'm recording rock gigs in medium to large venues. What I'm keen to know is whether I would achieve more balanced recordings with an intermediate battery box and, if so, which box would you folks recommend?
Thanks in advance,
Sqwubbs

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2015, 12:10:39 PM »
A battery box should not change the tonal balance of your recordings. 

It should give you the ability to record things that are louder without distortion.  If the bass is distorting/overloaded then yes a battery box should help (see below for more details). 

For medium to large venues the best way to achieve less bass is to be close to the stage.  The further back you are the bassier it will sound.  More than halfway back almost no mics will not sound bassy. 

Small mics like these often tend to deemphasize the bass so if your results still seem bassy there's not a lot you're likely to be able to do other than improve your position or adjust it after the fact. 

So you might want to make some adjustments in post-processing (filter and/or eq to compensate). 

As SP says about battery boxes/powering on their site:

Powering Options:

There are several ways to power these microphones. Each of these options provides the same sound quality, the only difference is the maximum sound pressure level (SPL) the mics can handle.

1-The microphones can be powered with normal "plug-in-power", available on many portable recorders and camcorders. With this type of power, the mics will handle reasonable sound levels. If you will be using the mics in high SPL (sound pressure level) situations, the microphones require additional power, beyond the normal "plug in power". You will need to use one of the powering schemes described below:

2-For strong sound levels, consistent with loud amplified concerts, you can add battery module for increased high SPL performance and dynamic range. You can select the battery module shown above in the option box, or choose one of the many other types that are available on this page if you prefer. We also recommend that you add the "Low sensitivity" modification as an option (details on this option here).

3-However, if your recorder/mixer, etc. supplies phantom power, you can add the high SPL modified XLR connector option. Each mic has it's own XLR connector and cable and microphones ordered this way will not work with "plug in power" or standard battery module as shown above.

4-For intensely loud situations, consistent with highly amplified concerts at close distances to the speakers, you can add set of Ultra high SPL power modules (AT8538 or AT8531) with locking connectors between the mics and the power modules. In this configuration, the mics remain balanced. With the AT8538 modules, the microphones will plug into device (mixer, mic preamp, recorder, etc) that supplies 9-52v phantom power. With the AT8531, the microphones will run on each modules standard AA battery or 9-52v phantom power. This configuration provides the highest level of SPL capability. The output of the modules are XLRM plugs. To connect the portable recorder with miniplug input, select this cable.

Lastly, if you wish to use the mics with plug in power and phantom power (alternately), order the mics as shown in option "1" above and order this cable with the phantom power option.
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline MrSqwubbsy

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2015, 04:44:57 AM »
Thanks for info. I am simultaneously video-recording most times that I'm using my M10 so I'm limited as to where I can stand but at least I now understand the correlatin between bass and distance from the stage on my audio recordings.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2015, 12:23:07 PM »
Thanks for info. I am simultaneously video-recording most times that I'm using my M10 so I'm limited as to where I can stand but at least I now understand the correlatin between bass and distance from the stage on my audio recordings.

One of the best things to do to learn room acoustics is to walk a room when someone is playing (or even during the pre-show PA music).  You should be able to hear a considerable difference by ear at different places in the room.  Mics in those various positions will be recording more or less what you're hearing.  There are probably some good resources about this here but the main factor to consider is the ratio of reverberant sound vs. direct sound.  As sound bounces around in a room (reverberates) it will muddy the image {see below for the physics}.  The "critical distance" is the curve (or points on the curve) at which the amount of reverberant sound equals the amount of direct sound.  IMO you want to be recording in front of that rather than behind it.  That distance is a lot closer than most people think it is (halfway back in most rooms is well into reverberant territory). 

I do know from experience that the ideal video position is rarely the idea audio one.  If you can't separate the recorders then the audio usually suffers. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 12:57:51 PM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline aaronji

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2015, 02:10:35 PM »
As sound bounces around in a room (reverberates) it will muddy the image, and bass/low-end because it is a shorter wavelength will multiply faster than the high end.  The "critical distance" is the curve (or points on the curve) at which the amount of reverberant sound equals the amount of direct sound.  IMO you want to be recording in front of that rather than behind it.  That distance is a lot closer than most people think it is (halfway back in most rooms is well into reverberant territory).

I agree with the conclusion, but I think the physics may be backwards. Wavelength and frequency are inversely related (lower frequencies result in longer wavelengths). It is my understanding that shorter waves (higher frequencies) are attenuated more rapidly than longer waves, making the reverberant sound relatively more bassy.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2015, 12:57:05 PM »
As sound bounces around in a room (reverberates) it will muddy the image, and bass/low-end because it is a shorter wavelength will multiply faster than the high end.  The "critical distance" is the curve (or points on the curve) at which the amount of reverberant sound equals the amount of direct sound.  IMO you want to be recording in front of that rather than behind it.  That distance is a lot closer than most people think it is (halfway back in most rooms is well into reverberant territory).

I agree with the conclusion, but I think the physics may be backwards. Wavelength and frequency are inversely related (lower frequencies result in longer wavelengths). It is my understanding that shorter waves (higher frequencies) are attenuated more rapidly than longer waves, making the reverberant sound relatively more bassy.

Indeed.  My bad.  There seemed to be a reason why I never got physics...  Of course I didn;t think I needed to know much of it at the time I was a liberal arts student...   :facepalm:
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2015, 01:11:17 PM »
Fwiw, I started out borrowing a pair of those mics, and I used an appropriate SP battery box. Excessive bass was a challenge, and bass overloading at loud gigs.  Used appropriately, those mics can make excellent recordings.

A 9v battery box would supply more voltage to the mics and perhaps that would help, but I tend to think you may still run into issues.  As others have said, more testing is recommended.  Have you tried using the bass roll off switch on the M10?  Have you tried to EQ out some of the bass?

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Offline darktrain

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2015, 08:50:52 PM »
Fwiw, I started out borrowing a pair of those mics, and I used an appropriate SP battery box. Excessive bass was a challenge, and bass overloading at loud gigs.  Used appropriately, those mics can make excellent recordings.

A 9v battery box would supply more voltage to the mics and perhaps that would help, but I tend to think you may still run into issues.  As others have said, more testing is recommended.  Have you tried using the bass roll off switch on the M10?  Have you tried to EQ out some of the bass?

The only way to ensure that they wont overload is to run them as intended which is 3 wire or to apply the 4.7k mod to reduce sensitivity, they will 100% overload if run without in a high SPL situation BB or not.

Offline Humbug

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 07:10:33 AM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said.

I've found that the weak link in the recording chain is battery boxes (they seem to always break after a few years, and the electronics are encased in epoxy ie unrepairable).

All my AT mics are currently terminated in mini-XLR's, and run into pre-amps (Church Audio or Naiant), before outputting to recorders. AT853s generally get nicer recordings than AT831s, run at the same location.
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AT933(853C)>CA9100 / PIPsqueak>iRiver H140/iRiver H108 CF mod/Sony PCM-M10

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2015, 09:55:23 AM »
The typical approach is to record everything and then use a low cut EQ in an audio editing program  to notch out excessive bass. 

If the OP is running straight into his camera and doesn't want to EQ later, then he might get one of the battery boxes from Sound Professionals that has the roll off switches built into the box so he can knock off some of the bass to start with.   

Offline dabbler

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2015, 09:57:03 PM »
I've found that the weak link in the recording chain is battery boxes (they seem to always break after a few years, and the electronics are encased in epoxy ie unrepairable).

The electronics are only a few dollars in parts and easy to cut out and assemble from scratch by even a novice like me.  I just made my first box the other week and I encased it in electronics epoxy to protect it.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=80917.msg2127441#msg2127441

Offline AndyLGR

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Re: Battery box advisable for SP-CMC-4U mics?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 10:12:28 AM »
I use the same mics going in to a sound professionals battery box SP-SPSB-11 then into my Edirol R-09.

I usually set my bass roll to 69khz and have never had any issues with distortion, but I was thinking of knocking this down to the lowest setting 16khz when I next record a gig.

 

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