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Author Topic: Oddball microphone techniques  (Read 55907 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball mic techniques
« Reply #150 on: November 22, 2013, 09:50:17 AM »
Ha.  Thanks Jim. Hopefully I'll never find out about their lightning strike protection capabilities.. here in the state with the highest lightning strike rate in the country.  Just to give a sense of scale, those balls are about squash-ball diameter rather than tennis-ball size.  In fact I've seen yellow 'floating practice golf-balls' made from the same dense foam material which are only slightly smaller in diameter.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 12:02:59 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball mic techniques
« Reply #151 on: November 22, 2013, 10:31:44 AM »
For any of you all interested in the Stereo Zoom stuff, here's a link to a PDF of the Michael Williams' diagram I think is most applicable to this config. It is a link to one of the many configuration diagrams available on his website.  It's a diagram with mic spacings and angles for a 5 channel omni setup, but in this case it's only the front three mics there I'm referring to, so just ignore the two other mics in back.

I had already determined that I wanted to use a 2-meter spacing with the left/right omnis, and that I was going to use a supercardioid center mic.  The next question was then "what is the most appropriate spacing forward of the omnis for the center mic?"  For practical reasons I didn't want to try and extend it too far forward, but I could extend the small 4098 on the forward TV antenna farther than I could the full bodied mics I'd used previously in the center which were attached to a standard mic bar turned 90-degrees to face front/back.  I decided to go with the spacing on the diagram above, which provides a Stereo Recording Angle of +/-40 degrees or 80 degrees total for the forward segment handled by the three front mics.  This is a bit more forward spacing than what I used the previous two years at this festival using the miniature ATs in the center. The spacing to the rear facing center mic in back is slightly less, and about what it was to both the front and rear previously using the ATs. 

The front/back center mic spacing is something I want to play around with further to see what works best and will be one of the differences I'll listen for when comparing recordings made this time verses the previous setup.  I could probably use slightly less spacing to the front facing center mic than what Williams suggests since I’m using a supercardioid rather than an omni, but since the left/right mics are still omnis, I doubt it would change the center spacing that much as far as stereo imaging is concerned, and stereo imaging is really the only aspect that the Stereo Zoom suggestions address.  The primary reason I’ve switched to using directionals in the center and back is to increase channel separation between the direct sound in the forward-facing mic and the ambient/audience/room sound in the rear facing one, rather than for left/right imaging reasons.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 12:36:20 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Oddball mic techniques
« Reply #152 on: November 24, 2013, 10:56:45 PM »
Are you playing back in Stereo or with some type of surround system?

Can you give some idea of the mixdown you use (or did I miss it earlier in the thread?).

  Richard

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball mic techniques
« Reply #153 on: November 27, 2013, 02:58:39 AM »
Both. It may be touched on earlier in the thread but I don't remember and here's more about it. 

For both multichannel playback and for a 2-channel stereo mix-down the process of dialing everything in is the same, though the result of the choices are somewhat different. I level balance channels, sometimes eq balance them as well, and sometimes do some work on dynamics.  I don't know how different exactly, since I've only made stereo mixes directly and never tried to sum a multichannel playback balance down to 2-channel.  I start by getting a good left/right level balance alone, eq that if necessary. Then bring up the center channel (routed to it's own speaker or panned to stereo center) and adjust the center/sides balance and imaging across the front.  I play around with it, listening at different balance settings.  Depending on the recording, 'just enough center level', 'about the same level of center as left/right', and 'more center than left/right' might all be viable choices, and it takes returning to each and listening for a while to decide which of those I like best.  For each of those very different gross-center-level choices, I usually pretty quickly home in on a preferable fine-level adjustment for each one of them. I don't know why and find that very interesting.  A few dB makes the difference in things 'snapping into place' in each case, but the center level may vary by 10dB or more between the three primary gross level choices. Regardless, after a while it becomes evident which one is best. Besides imaging, center level provides some control over the reverberant balance and forward presence.

Last I bring up the rear facing mic(s). If mixing to 2-channel, I'll pan the single rear mic to center, or if I have a pair I'll pan them fully to each side or inwards somewhat if necessary to make it seamless, EQ that as necessary.  The use and level of the rear facing mic(s) is probably the biggest difference between a 2-channel mixdown and multichannel playback, but I almost always use some in the stereo mix, if just enough to get a sense of depth, width and richness, just enough to make the room sound or audience more natural.  Or I'll get fancy and automate it’s level, changing it between songs for great crowd reaction, sometimes between more sparse/quiet tunes and more sonically-dense/louder ones.  Managing the rear channel level is far more important in a 2 channel mix than with direct speaker playback where I get the level and eq to sound right and leave it, unless something annoying happens back there.

The ability to tweak the center/sides and front/back balance after the recording has been made which makes the 4-mic setup very flexible and less dependent on getting stereo mic spacings and angles just right, but what I really like is the control over presence, sense of depth, and envelopment that lets me adjust those things for a seamlessness sense of naturalness.

Sometimes I'll go farther and EQ or compress the center differently than the sides and subtle adjustments there beyond the need for simple corrections can be really useful for imaging.  Rolling off the low bass in the center mic sometimes helps clean things up and is one reason I'm not concerned about a strong low bass response from the small ATs or DPA 4098s I'm often using as center mics.

I play these back at home with something similar to a home-theater setup, but one used mostly for reproducing my multichannel recordings.  Left, center and right mic channels to left, center and right speakers arranged in a wide equidistant arc across the front.   If I lean back from the center of the couch I see something like a standard 60 degree angle between L/R speakers, if I lean forward over the coffee table they are at 90 degrees, and sitting normally they are somewhere in between.  The rear facing mic channel is mult'd to 4 or 5 speakers around the back.  The 8 speakers form an arrangement close to an equal sided octagon.  All speakers are full range, with floor standers across the front and the matching one directly behind, with two dedicated surround speakers in the back corners, and two bookshelves to the sides, no subwoofer.  The median line through the center of the playback arrangement is on a diagonal in the room. Most of the surround recordings from rigs in this thread are 4 channel, except the on-stage 5 ch stuff over in the on-stage recording thread.  For the 5 channel recordings I use 5 or 7 of the 8 speakers.   

Starting to work on a portable version with smaller out-door patio speakers clipped around a pre-wired pop-up canopy, a suitcase sub or two and a deep-cycle battery.  Will be cool to pop-open in friend's backyards, and to be able to play the surround recordings back at the remote campsite above the banks of the Suwannee as I make them at that festival.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 02:25:48 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball mic techniques
« Reply #154 on: May 20, 2014, 01:39:05 PM »
Here's a few photos of my latest variant on the multichannel recording setup.  This six-channel version is my current ‘reference’ open surround recording configuration. 

Three TS member rigs can be seen in the photos-  Dnuggs' black stand is to the right (with a pair of Beyerdynamic mc930's I think), T-90's silver stand is immediately adjacent to mine with his AT 4051 pair on the Shure vert-bar, both using big Sure windscreens.   Jon took these photos.  This was Suwannee Springfest 2014 in Live Oak, FL a few months ago in March.  Great music and an absolutely beautiful weekend.

This 6-channel setup consists of the Microtech Gefell M94 cardioids in the middle, one facing directly forward, the other rearward, both wearing the big Shure screens; Microtech Gefell M21 supercardioids facing directly Left and Right  wearing smaller windscreens, forming an OCT setup in combination with the forward cardioid, and a wide-spaced pair of DPA 4061 at the far ends of the telescopic arms to which the M21 pair are also attached.  All mics were run directly into the Tascam DR-680, the 4061 pair via Naiant PFAs. 

I first tried this setup experimentally at Springfest last year along with a few other variants, and it worked so well that it’s now my standard ‘full-effort’ big setup.  I’m quite pleased with it and the result played back directly from the recorder. 

The OCT (Optimum Cardioid Triangle) arrangement with the sideways pointing supercards in combination with the directly forward pointing center cardioid works really well for even greater improved clarity and optimum imaging separation across the 3 front main channels.  The rear facing cardioid also makes for an almost identical OCT setup facing rearwards, and although that front/back symmetry isn’t necessarily intended for the same reasons as the OCT arrangement in front the symmetry may be useful.

The orientation of the rear facing cardioid is intended to exclude as much of the sound arriving from in front as possible to help isolate the ambient sound pickup of the 'room' and the audience reaction around back.  Here, it's slightly farther back from the center-line than the forward facing center cardioid, about as far as I could manage using that bar and about as far as I would want it for practical purposes anyway hanging off a single stand, still easily configurable for an umbrella if necessary and not overhanging the isle in back.  The spacing between all the other microphones is measured and intentional given the distance from the stage and the Stereo Zoom SRA angles, but that rear facing cardiod might be more optimally placed a meter or two farther back.  I haven't experimented with that aspect since it's one of the least important constraints.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 07:35:07 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball mic techniques
« Reply #155 on: May 20, 2014, 02:30:43 PM »
How I use the resulting channels-

For 2-channel mix listening I use the built-in monitor mix output of the DR-680.  The DPA omnis and MG supercards are panned Left/Right and the center/back MG cardioids panned to center, the level of each balanced as appropriate in the mix.  During the fest I can do a simple check to make sure everything is working when I get back
to camp at the end of the day (internal stereo mix > 680 headphone jack out > SennHD650).  On the long drive home I can route the same mix through the 680 RCA stereo outs > rental car minijack stereo input.  Back at home I can listen to the 2-ch mix using a better DAC/headphone amp (680 SPDIF > Mytek DAC > Senn HD650).

For full 6-channel surround playback which is my primary interest with this, I’m also playing the files off the DR-680, but unmixed through the recorder’s 6-channel RCA outputs into the multi-channel analog DVD home theater receiver input.  With 6-channels there is no longer a need to mult’ a single recorded surround channel to all the surround speakers.  The biggest playback question for me was whether to route the wide-spaced omnis to the front Left/Right channels as I have done previously (probably mixed with the supercards in this case) or whether to route the wide omnis fully to the Ls/Rs surround channels and route only the supercards to the front Left/Right speakers.  I also played with it the other way, sending the supercards to the surrounds and the omnis Left/Right.  The rear facing cardioid is routed to a center back surround speaker.  For that 6th channel I repurpose the subwoofer line level output on the surround receiver along with an external amp to drive the center rear surround speaker.  Doing that provides global level and tone control over all 6 channels through the receiver.

Using the omnis as dedicated Ls/Rs surround channels worked very nicely, blending smoothly in the room with the supercard pair dedicated to the L/R channels in front.  The intended OCT setup with the sideways facing supercardioids and forwarded facing center cardioid works really nicely.  The wide omnis make it even better.  Solid immersion with nice clean imaging all the way around and excellent clarity.  I did a walk around test at the camp site and that tracks correctly around the playback room, which demonstrated improved imaging accuracy and channel isolation in all directions even though this is obviously designed primarily for recording ‘music from in front’.

So the 6-channel surround playback routing which works best is: M21 supercardioid pair > Front-Left/Front-Right, M92 cardioid pair > Front-Center/ Surround-Center(back), 4060 pair > Surround-Left/Surround-Right.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball mic techniques
« Reply #156 on: May 20, 2014, 02:35:12 PM »
As usual the recording setup was all prewired using the same small Bogen stand I use for the smaller, more compact 4-channel rig.  All cabling routed through a single tech-flex bundle to the recording bag.  Doing that allowed me to setup and break down very quickly at the amphitheater each day. I could walk in, attach the full body Gefells to the pre-wired stand (4061s remained attached), and unfold and telescope the extension arms to get the microphones arranged correctly before lifting and hanging the entire apparatus on the larger stand which remained staked in place with a couple chairs the entire weekend.  With the heavier full body Gefells up there I wouldn’t trust the small stand on its own, other than standing alone momentarily while getting it arranged, but its fully secure and stable once attached to the big stand.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball mic techniques
« Reply #157 on: May 20, 2014, 02:38:17 PM »
This is my favorite surround recording setup of those I've devised up to this point, and will be the baseline-reference moving forward for all my open surround recordings. 

In addition to this 6-channel setup, I also made alternate test recordings each day to determine how well the DPA 4098H hypercards might substitute for either or both pairs of Gefells.  However, before I can really make useful a determination I'll need to sync and align those extra files, which were recorded on a separate DR-2d (along with a copy of the 4060 pair patched out of DR-680 to make the alignment and syncing files easier).  The first day the 4098s were mounted immediately atop the M94s, to directly compare them as C/Cs mics.  The second day I mounted them atop the M21s to directly compare them as L/R mics.  Once those comparisions were done, the third day I left them mounted atop the M21 bodies but bent their miniature goose-neck mounts 90 degrees so they were pointed directly backwards to determine if 30" spaced, parallel-arranged rear-facing directional surround channels might be useful, and how well they may work in that roll.  That was the only previously untried configuration of the weekend.

Once I can do those comparisons, the next development step will be messing around with ways to do this 6-channel setup or something similar with the compact, light-weight rig using all miniature microphones substituting the DPA 4098H in place of the excellent but bulkier and more costly Gefells.  The Gefells are unquestionably better microphones, but by how much and how significant that difference becomes in the full 6-channel playback scheme (or a 2-ch mix down) remains to be fully determined.  The 4098H beat the miniature ATs I used in developing the simpler 4-channel variants on this arrangement posted about earlier, yet the ATs worked nicely in combination with the 4061 pair.  However, the 4098H are relatively bass insensitive in comparison to both the Gefels and also the ATs, so I’d not recommend using them as a stereo pair on their own unless recording something that required mucho bass attenuation or if willing to make a significant EQ correction.  But in combination with a pair of wide spaced omnis providing a strong and enveloping low end response that aspect becomes moot.  I probably already mentioned much of this earlier in the thread when I began experimenting with the 4098H last year.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 05:42:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline T-90

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #158 on: May 21, 2014, 07:53:15 PM »
nice pics.....the best part about all of this is that i ran my cards in din and then grabbed your feed from the 4061's, which perfectly flanked my mics.....4 chan goodness with half the work  8)  i dont get the chance to be lazy too often so im always on the lookout for opportunities....just look at my internet typing techniques, im destroying the english language one meaningless post at a time :)
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Offline dnuggs

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #159 on: May 21, 2014, 09:23:48 PM »
Gutbucket's setup is the ultimate festy rig...Mighty fine weekend of music and weather. Springfest FOB crew in the house!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #160 on: May 21, 2014, 11:30:40 PM »
Hey, always good to hear from the most choice fellow FOB crew around! ..who actually make it down to the river too! which is sort of like hanging out away from 'the office'. 

Thanks for the 'work pix', T.  And the late-night jam patches after my ridiculous monstrosity had been hauled back to camp for the night, D.  Come to think of it, thanks to both you guys for the windscreens I'm using in those photos from a few years back.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #161 on: March 25, 2015, 02:42:49 PM »
Below are a couple photos of the latest variation on the 6-channel rig from last weekend, again at Suwannee Springfest.

Two changes-
First, Thurs & Fri I used a Gefell supercard (M21) as the center forward facing microphone rather than the Gefell cardioid (M94) to help isolate the direct PA and stage sound and reject diffuse pickup from all other directions as much as possible in the front center channel.  I retained the rear facing Gefell cardioid for maximal rejection of sound arriving from directly in front.  This arrangement used the same mics I've been running previously but is a modification to the overall directional sensitivity of the array in that the center front/back mic pair is no longer identical but use asymmetrical pickup patterns.

Second, Saturday and Sunday I substituted a second pair of DPA 4098H miniature supercardioid microphones for the center front/rear facing Gefells.   The DPA phantom power adapters allowed me to plug these into the same XLR mic cables already present in the 6ch snake to the recording bag.  This retained the greater-than-cardioid directionality of the forward facing center microphone, and provides identical microphones across the Left/Center/Right triplet providing most of the stereo playback imaging cues across the front.  The miniature DPA are far smaller, lighter, more weather resistant, less costly, and can run off low-voltage power.   They are much better suited to the compact/portable variant of this rig I walk around with at Bear Creek.  If they are "close enough" to the sweet sound of the Gefells, I may just use these instead for situations like Springfest as well, where a bigger fixed-rig setup on a taller staked-down stand isn't so much of a problem, but rain protection can be.

Below are the four 4098H in a cross formation (part OCT-inspired, part L/C/R/S) centered between the 6' wide spaced 4061 pair.  The sideways facing left/right 4098H pair are easier to support than the Gefells on the same extending telescopic antenna arms used to space the omnis.  They have generic ball-mic foam screens slipped over and pinned to the smaller 1" diameter cylindrical foam screens I've been using with the 4098H.  The super thin windscreens DPA provides with the 4098H are perhaps sufficient for a permanent install indoors well away from any air drafts, but aren't sufficient indoors otherwise, much less so outdoors.

The microdot input DPA XLR phantom adapters that the center forward/rear facing pair of 4098H were directly attached to were simply gaff-taped to the standard mic-bar, and I rigged up the arrangement using a chopstick blackened by gaffer tape to support the weight of the (BAS) Shure windscreens used on them.  Otherwise the positionable articulated arm section on each 4098H could not support the weight of the windscreen and would droop.  Like the L/R pair, the BAS foams fit over smaller 1" diameter cylindrical foam screens, and the support chopstick slid between the two separate foam layers.  Worked very well for this trial outing.  I plan to use just the smaller foams but with a fur cover on them on all four 4098H rather than the BAS, which should offer about the same degree of wind protection with significantly reduced bulk and mass.

More photos of this rig along with a bunch of others FOB at the amphitheater are posted in the rig-pictures section- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172315.msg2133737#msg2133737
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 03:06:08 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #162 on: March 25, 2015, 03:13:14 PM »
BTW, counter to my expectations, I haven't found the DPA 4098H to be overly light in the bass region when listened to on their own without inclusion of the omnis.  They don't have that super-solid, fat bottom the wide omnis provide, but I'd actually not hesitate to run them alone as a pair for amplified stuff, especially if the music or the PA was bass heavy.  In combination with the omnis they work extremely well.
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Offline phil_er_up

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #163 on: March 25, 2015, 03:42:05 PM »
Gutbucket do you have any audio samples of the above rig that I can listen to?

Thanks.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #164 on: March 25, 2015, 04:41:43 PM »
Not posted anywhere online currently.  However, I'll revisit and post links in this thread at probably elsewhere at TS at some point so you can hear a 2-channel stereo down-mix, and also links to samples of the individual pairs or channel components so you can hear how this all adds up and comes together.  I've currently no good way to distribute the optimal 6-channel discrete surround version, but whenever I make a 2-ch down mix, I use some matrix-surround encode tricks and always check to make sure that the resulting 2-ch mix works both for straight stereo playback and is matrix-surround playback compatible (DTS-Neo6/music mode).

Back at camp during the fest I check individual channels and listen to a 2ch stereo monitor down-mix direct off the DR-680 through headphones or plugged into the car stereo.  I can patch-out that quick 2-ch mix.   At home these recordings are replayed directly as discrete 6-channel surround, with each mic feeding it's own speaker channel in their full 3D tele-transportative/time-machine glory.  I'm working on portable 6-channel playback at the campsite based on speakers wired into a hexagonal pop-up canopy and a car subwoofer or two. 

I'm now starting to go through my back catalog of these 4 and 6 channel surround recordings, with the intention of mixing the best of it down to two channel stereo so others can enjoy them.  I can usually dial in the DR-680's 2ch monitor mix pretty good on it's own, but the effort in making a proper mix on the computer, including polarity correction for a couple channels, global and individual EQ per pair as required for best balance, and 'volume-envelope' gain-riding automation of the audience ambiance channels as necessary makes a big difference in the ultimate quality of the 2 channel stereo mix.  To meet my own quality standards for a proper 2-ch stereo mix, that stuff needs to be done.  Ironically perhaps, excellent direct 6-ch surround playback is far easier and a lot less work with less potential for complications.  In that case, the level and EQ adjustment is done on the fly using an outboard mixer, there is far less need for audience gain-riding, and of course no worries about mix-translation.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 04:50:35 PM by Gutbucket »
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