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Offline 6079

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Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« on: March 15, 2008, 08:47:12 PM »
Edit:  A new question for this:  Is it reasonable for a band to ask a soundman (small, local venue; not friends with) to provide a soundboard mix for them?  It seems like it'd be an easier route to get the band to ask instead of you.

And can the sound guy put it onto a CD or a data DVD, or does he need some device from the taper to record it onto live?

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I understood when you plug in to a soundboard, you are often getting an unbalanced mix; more guitar/vocals than drums for instance.  However, I'm reading now that the engineer has the option of creating a separate mix of each channel for your recording, via that output you are connected to.
My questions are is this common for there to be this free output that is able to host a separate mix?
Why are most soundboard mixes not mixed evenly, but rather just the same as the unbalanced house mix?

Is there a common understanding that when you ask for soundboard access that if the engineer is able to/has the will, he can set up a separate mix that would sound good on its own for your recording?  Or should you explicitly ask him, politely, to mix your output - or is there another issue I am not aware of that prevents this from happening?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 09:21:00 PM by 6079 »
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Offline stantheman1976

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2008, 09:18:19 PM »
If you're using the regular "record out" of the board it's just a straight output of whatever the house mix is, often with a -10dB pad.  The reason it might not sound perfect is that the engineer is mixing what sounds best through the PA.  That same mix that sounds spectacular might sound terrible in the recording because some instruments need to be extremely loud or soft in through the PA.

Most boards have auxilary(sp?) outputs that can have separate devices hooked to them and be mixed separately from the main mix.  Unless you know the engineer or they are just REALLY nice you probably won't be able to mess with it yourself or get them to mix it for you because they've got plenty of other things to think about.  I'm not saying it's not possible, just not likely in most situations.

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 08:50:00 AM »
I understood when you plug in to a soundboard, you are often getting an unbalanced mix; more guitar/vocals than drums for instance. 

This is venue size dependent - in a small bar, where the guitar players amp is loud enough - he wont be in the mix...he is not needed. The bigger the venue - the more likely you are to get an even mix. In a smaller rooms - expect the mix to make quiet things louder and loud things quieter...


However, I'm reading now that the engineer has the option of creating a separate mix of each channel for your recording, via that output you are connected to.

Emphasis on "option"...unless it's a band that you see a lot - and have made friends with the engineer - dont expect this to an option. And it would not be through the "same output" - For this technique the sound man uses either an extra "aux" or "effects" send to create a separate mix - you would get the feed from the aux or eff send(usually a 1/4 TS-unbalanced). It's a bit of a crapshoot whether these outputs would even be available(i.e. unused by the soundman)...dont expect it.

Is there a common understanding that when you ask for soundboard access that if the engineer is able to/has the will, he can set up a separate mix that would sound good on its own for your recording?  Or should you explicitly ask him, politely, to mix your output - or is there another issue I am not aware of that prevents this from happening?

The main issue (in most cases) is - that's not what he's hired to do...I woundn't even consider asking most big venue engineers. If its a local or regional band that you see frequently...work it. Make friends with the guy - if he is interested in what you are doing - he will be more likely to accomodate you.

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2008, 08:53:58 AM »
If you're using the regular "record out" of the board it's just a straight output of whatever the house mix is, often with a -10dB pad. 

I think you are confusing the Consumer standard line level output (-10db) with something else...

The RCA (unbalanced) outs will be consumer line level -10db

The XLR (balanced) will be +4db

Not sure it really has anything to do with "padding" - just reference standards...

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2008, 11:39:15 AM »
This is all as I understand it and I'm no soundman. And I'm sure there are a ton of exceptions and variations. Please correct me as needed!

Its the difference between a full mix and 'sound reinforcement' (the current PC term for PA related stuff). Most of the time the soundman is mixing in the the mic'ed stuff with the sound coming off the stage, reinforcing the sound. He's just bringing up the volume of the softer instruments to mix with the louder stuff. In a small club that is often just vocals and the kick drum, other instruments are added as needed like keys or some guitar if they have a small amp. The full mix where everything is mic'ed and run through the PA happens mainly at festivals and in large venues. Even then the full mix is not a recording mix because they are mixing for the room, not for tape,etc.

So, a sound reinforcement mix will not sound right, a full mix will have all the parts but maybe not in the right proportion and a recording mix is what you want. Unless the soundman is nice or they are recording themselves, you probably wont get good sound from the soundboard alone. However there are a lot of nice soundmen out there, just remember they are at work and their job is to make the band sound good first and foremost. That is unless they don't like the band and they turn up the "suck" knob ;-)
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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2008, 12:59:41 PM »
Ettiquette rule #1.  Never touch the board. ;D
Ettiquette rule #2.  Don't accidentally feed the board phantom power.
Ettiquette rule #3.  Take what you get, say thank you, and if it sucks, keep your mouth shut.

I have friends who play in bar bands.  In a small bar, sometimes the bass and kick drum aren't mic'd at all, because they don't need to be as far as the sound in the room is concerned.  The sound guy is dialing in the room... whatever that takes.

If I pull a board tape, I usually pull an AUD tape too and mix them, at least 50% AUD with just enough SBD to add some crispness to the vocals.  There are a few cases where the sound engineer makes a good tape output... typically when HE wants a good recording for himself.
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Offline 69mako

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2008, 11:55:44 PM »
Ettiquette rule #1.  Never touch the board. ;D
Ettiquette rule #2.  Don't accidentally feed the board phantom power.
Ettiquette rule #3.  Take what you get, say thank you, and if it sucks, keep your mouth shut.

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Offline dgale

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 12:24:32 AM »
Ettiquette rule #1.  Never touch the board. ;D
Ettiquette rule #2.  Don't accidentally feed the board phantom power.
Ettiquette rule #3.  Take what you get, say thank you, and if it sucks, keep your mouth shut.


Ettiquette rule #4.  Never plug in to AC power, run cables in/around the board, or even set up a stand without asking the house engineer first.  Sort of a subset of rule #1 but basically not touching the board to many house engineers means stay the hell out of their space and don't touch a damn thing anywhere near them until you introduce yourself, ask politely, and get the go-ahead.

Ettiquette rule #5. Never use duct tape - leave that stuff at home for fixing your furnace.  Buy a roll of gaffer's tape, preferably black, use it sparingly as needed, don't tape anything to the sbd or any of the house equipment without asking first, and clean up your mess when the show is over.

Ettiquette rule #6. Offer to make the house or band soundman a copy of the recording, and then actually follow through and send it to them. 
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2008, 12:53:08 AM »
Ettiquette rule #1.  Never touch the board. ;D
Ettiquette rule #2.  Don't accidentally feed the board phantom power.
Ettiquette rule #3.  Take what you get, say thank you, and if it sucks, keep your mouth shut.


Ettiquette rule #4.  Never plug in to AC power, run cables in/around the board, or even set up a stand without asking the house engineer first.  Sort of a subset of rule #1 but basically not touching the board to many house engineers means stay the hell out of their space and don't touch a damn thing anywhere near them until you introduce yourself, ask politely, and get the go-ahead.

Ettiquette rule #5. Never use duct tape - leave that stuff at home for fixing your furnace.  Buy a roll of gaffer's tape, preferably black, use it sparingly as needed, don't tape anything to the sbd or any of the house equipment without asking first, and clean up your mess when the show is over.

Ettiquette rule #6. Offer to make the house or band soundman a copy of the recording, and then actually follow through and send it to them. 

#6 is important.  The guys I've asked always want to hear something back.  Some ask for their mix, others don't specify, in which case you should make your own (AUD + SBD) mix and send that back.  Show them that giving patches *is* a good thing (ie., sounds good, and they get a copy), they'll be likely to give more later.

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Offline person

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2008, 06:46:29 AM »
#7 If the sound guy is any good he's already stressing out heaps and fixing things throughout the show - don't get in his way and/or be annoying.

Offline dgale

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2008, 12:30:11 PM »

#6 is important.  The guys I've asked always want to hear something back.  Some ask for their mix, others don't specify, in which case you should make your own (AUD + SBD) mix and send that back.  Show them that giving patches *is* a good thing (ie., sounds good, and they get a copy), they'll be likely to give more later.


Most house sound guys want to hear a recording of their mix - It's basically their work product for the night and they like to listen later and see how they did...I get asked for recordings fairly regularly just for this purpose...they don't necessarily seem to care in the sense of wanting to listen to that specific band but rather want to hear how they mixed that night...either way make sure to scratch their back, as it will make them be more inclined to let people record in the future (i.e. there's something in it for them as well). 
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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2008, 04:41:57 PM »
Re: Aux mix (ie. separate recording mix)... I am a house engineer at a club, and I think if someone I didn't know asked me to make them a separate aux mix, I would most definitely say no. I think I'm actually a really nice guy, and have been a taper for years and really support taping, but making a separate aux mix can be distracting from the job I'm getting paid to do and can take up a good amount of time. It would either have to be done in soundcheck or on the fly once the band started (and probably involve a set on IEMs). I've worked at this club for three years and taped dozens and dozens of shows, and in all that time I've only even made MYSELF an aux mix for recording once, and there were only like 6 inputs for that show... So I think if its a soundguy that you know well I would ask nicely, but otherwise just take a straight mix or tape with mics... My .02.
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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2008, 04:44:42 PM »
its touchy to say the least, with so much on the liine for the sound engineer and tight schedules and rules and so forth; my mantra is:  have every possible cable needed to patch in hand, ask permission, if permission given patch immediately and then get out of the way, if you have more than a little difficulty in patching or in getting a signal, abandon the attempt to patch and get out, otherwise you will piss the engineer off and the situation will not get any better from that point on nor will you probably get a patch or even a signal to patch

Offline svenkid

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2008, 07:28:52 PM »
Never patch at shows, why bother, just let the mics fly.

:)
Seriously, the band makes the music. Tapers just point mics in the right direction and hit "record".

That's good to hear!  The last patcher I had complained about my AKGs, fluffed schoeps for about 15 minutes, stayed patched in, and farted on me all night long.
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Offline barrettphisher

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 02:21:37 PM »
Ettiquette rule #1.  Never touch the board. ;D
Ettiquette rule #2.  Don't accidentally feed the board phantom power.
Ettiquette rule #3.  Take what you get, say thank you, and if it sucks, keep your mouth shut.

I have friends who play in bar bands.  In a small bar, sometimes the bass and kick drum aren't mic'd at all, because they don't need to be as far as the sound in the room is concerned.  The sound guy is dialing in the room... whatever that takes.

If I pull a board tape, I usually pull an AUD tape too and mix them, at least 50% AUD with just enough SBD to add some crispness to the vocals.  There are a few cases where the sound engineer makes a good tape output... typically when HE wants a good recording for himself.

I agree with #3 to a point, if you get a crappy mix let the House guy know as it could be something they might want to investigate.  But always say thank you. 

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2008, 02:49:26 PM »
Never patch at shows, why bother, just let the mics fly.

:)

Yes, 90% of the time I do this.  Simplest, and often the best sound anyway.

In a small room, sometimes I take a board feed just as "insurance", occasionally using it to bump up the vocals, either because they are low in the mix or to overcome some chatter.

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 04:30:52 PM »
Ettiquette rule #1.  Never touch the board. ;D
Ettiquette rule #2.  Don't accidentally feed the board phantom power.
Ettiquette rule #3.  Take what you get, say thank you, and if it sucks, keep your mouth shut.


Ettiquette rule #4.  Never plug in to AC power, run cables in/around the board, or even set up a stand without asking the house engineer first.  Sort of a subset of rule #1 but basically not touching the board to many house engineers means stay the hell out of their space and don't touch a damn thing anywhere near them until you introduce yourself, ask politely, and get the go-ahead.

Ettiquette rule #5. Never use duct tape - leave that stuff at home for fixing your furnace.  Buy a roll of gaffer's tape, preferably black, use it sparingly as needed, don't tape anything to the sbd or any of the house equipment without asking first, and clean up your mess when the show is over.

Ettiquette rule #6. Offer to make the house or band soundman a copy of the recording, and then actually follow through and send it to them. 

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Offline Jeremy Lykins

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 11:09:23 PM »
Ettiquette rule #4.  Never ... even set up a stand without asking the house engineer first.

Ettiquette rule #6. Offer to make the house or band soundman a copy of the recording, and then actually follow through and send it to them. 

I'm just getting started taping and Rule #4 is something that I've been wondering about.  I've got an R-09 and my mics should get here in the next week or so, but I've already taped a couple of shows from a soundboard patch.  The first one was ruined (completely my fault) because the soundboard was behind the stage (it was in a small bar) and I had to give the soundman the R-09 and wasn't able to adjust the levels and they were set way too high.  The other patch was in another small bar, but I was able to sit in front of the board and keep an eye on things.  I didn't have the correct cable for a stereo patch (a 1/8" to double 1/4") but he was nice enough to let me one that he had with him.  I told the band that I'd give them a copy, but I never thought to give one to the soundman too (he works for the bar, not the band). 

Offline 6079

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2008, 08:52:19 PM »
A new question for this:  Is it reasonable for a band to ask a soundman (small, local venue; not friends with) to provide a soundboard mix for them?  It seems like it'd be an easier route to get the band to ask instead of you.

And can the sound guy put it onto a CD or a data DVD, or does he need some device from the taper to record it onto live?
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Offline rokpunk

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2008, 10:55:13 PM »
A new question for this:  Is it reasonable for a band to ask a soundman (small, local venue; not friends with) to provide a soundboard mix for them?  It seems like it'd be an easier route to get the band to ask instead of you.

And can the sound guy put it onto a CD or a data DVD, or does he need some device from the taper to record it onto live?

rule #8:

The engineers fingers need lubrication in order to turn all those knobs and push up all those faders. The lubricant of choice for audio engineers is beer, although, rum, jagermeister, and vodka have all been known to work.

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2008, 01:52:26 AM »
A new question for this:  Is it reasonable for a band to ask a soundman (small, local venue; not friends with) to provide a soundboard mix for them?  It seems like it'd be an easier route to get the band to ask instead of you.

And can the sound guy put it onto a CD or a data DVD, or does he need some device from the taper to record it onto live?
I assume you mean can the sound engineer create a special mix just for the recording? Certainly a good idea to get the band to ask if it's possible. The sound engineer may have a machine to record onto, but if so, the engineer might be doing it for personal or venue archives. If you have a recorder to provide, definitely do so. Multiple masters are always a good idea.

I told the band that I'd give them a copy, but I never thought to give one to the soundman too (he works for the bar, not the band). 

I firmly believe in offering recordings to anyone involved as a goodwill gesture.
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Offline Kindguy

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Re: Trying to understand sound board rules/ettiquette
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2008, 04:04:30 AM »
A new question for this:  Is it reasonable for a band to ask a soundman (small, local venue; not friends with) to provide a soundboard mix for them?  It seems like it'd be an easier route to get the band to ask instead of you.

And can the sound guy put it onto a CD or a data DVD, or does he need some device from the taper to record it onto live?
I assume you mean can the sound engineer create a special mix just for the recording? Certainly a good idea to get the band to ask if it's possible. The sound engineer may have a machine to record onto, but if so, the engineer might be doing it for personal or venue archives. If you have a recorder to provide, definitely do so. Multiple masters are always a good idea.


I told the band that I'd give them a copy, but I never thought to give one to the soundman too (he works for the bar, not the band). 

I firmly believe in offering recordings to anyone involved as a goodwill gesture.

Some bars do have a machine to record onto. Like Smiths Old Bar in Atlanta. They record everything board special mix> HD. They can burn & track you out a 16bit disc really quick. Usually he charges bands for this. I can get one done for a few beers.

Great etiquette rules in here BTW. T's around.
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