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Author Topic: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS  (Read 6311 times)

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Offline larrysellers

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Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« on: May 21, 2008, 01:15:42 PM »
What gives this preamp the ability to replace the mic bodies in certain active setups (neumann, schoeps)? Is it just the unique connectors (5pin binder and the lemos)? If another pre had these same inputs, could it also function in the same capacity? Thank you in advance.

Offline timP

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2008, 01:30:52 PM »
as a new lemo sax owner I am learning too.

it seems sonosax has re-done their website in the past few weeks, but it used to have more info about the SX-M2/LS, something about caps with a FET in them working with the lemosax?? ??


Now there is nothing in their SX-M2 page, but I pulled this from the current;y posted .pdf manual:

"Technical changes
To be able to place the electronics of the microphone body inside the SX-M2/LS,
LEMO connectors are used instead of the NEUTRIK XLR for the microphone inputs."
?>FR2LE

Offline DSatz

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2008, 10:47:03 PM »
The main general requirement would be to supply the two DC voltages that are needed by the active capsules (Neumann) or active cables (Schoeps). That is about 7 - 10 Volts for the FET circuit and 50 - 60 Volts for capsule polarization. The input impedance should also be somewhat higher than the usual mike preamp input, ideally, though IIRC the stock Sonosax is already 5 or 6 kOhm.

These inputs are unbalanced, incidentally.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline timP

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 12:18:46 PM »
The main general requirement would be to supply the two DC voltages that are needed by the active capsules (Neumann) or active cables (Schoeps). That is about 7 - 10 Volts for the FET circuit and 50 - 60 Volts for capsule polarization. The input impedance should also be somewhat higher than the usual mike preamp input, ideally, though IIRC the stock Sonosax is already 5 or 6 kOhm.

These inputs are unbalanced, incidentally.

--best regards

thanks for that tidbit.

I hope to use my AKG ck1x caps with this pre. I need to see if SX-M2/LS will provide the right power needs
?>FR2LE

Offline fozzy

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 04:34:40 PM »
Dave (OFOTD) has some older neumanns w/ the lemo LC3 cables.  We tried these into my SX-M2/LS2 and I couldn't get them to pass a signal.  naturally it works fine w/ the MK4v > KCY > Lemosax

Is there something different w/ the older style neumanns?
MK 4V > KCY 250/5 Ig (KS 10I)  > VST62IUg > 722

Offline DSatz

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 07:38:38 AM »
fozzy, there is an arrangement that should work for Neumann's "active capsules" with the Lemo extension cables, but I don't have a wiring diagram for the Lemo versions of the Sonosax preamp, so I can't help you directly.

Sonosax has its own direct technical support via email, and the guy there writes good enough English; I'd suggest writing to them for help. As I recall they had a specific version for the Neumann KM 100 series at one time, since there's no standard for the wiring of those cables or the Lemo connectors, and Neumann's preferred voltages are slightly different from Schoeps' as I recall (but not by enough to be scary).

--best regards

P.S. added on second thought: I would not be entirely enthusiastic about this approach myself, since the low-level signal connections are unbalanced and the use of RF-based personal communication devices has increased so much since these systems were designed. This is particularly true when you're recording in the midst of a crowd. If the Sonosax can be mounted up close to the capsules (away from whatever is in people's pockets) and the cables kept short, that should be safer, of course.

Given the cell phone and Blackberry explosion, none of the manufacturers are eager to support their own idea from the 1970s of using full-length cables such as 20 meters (and extension cables up to 100 meters) in this type of configuration any more; the trend is more toward compact microphones with balanced outputs.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 08:06:23 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline bluntforcetrauma

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 11:48:09 PM »
I have both schematics of the sonosax sx-m2/LS  they are in PDF format How can i get you all to view them?

Offline bluntforcetrauma

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 11:50:22 PM »
see attachments i hope it works, the schematics are attached, please view

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2008, 10:54:27 PM »
fozzy, there is an arrangement that should work for Neumann's "active capsules" with the Lemo extension cables, but I don't have a wiring diagram for the Lemo versions of the Sonosax preamp, so I can't help you directly.

Sonosax has its own direct technical support via email, and the guy there writes good enough English; I'd suggest writing to them for help. As I recall they had a specific version for the Neumann KM 100 series at one time, since there's no standard for the wiring of those cables or the Lemo connectors, and Neumann's preferred voltages are slightly different from Schoeps' as I recall (but not by enough to be scary).

--best regards

P.S. added on second thought: I would not be entirely enthusiastic about this approach myself, since the low-level signal connections are unbalanced and the use of RF-based personal communication devices has increased so much since these systems were designed. This is particularly true when you're recording in the midst of a crowd. If the Sonosax can be mounted up close to the capsules (away from whatever is in people's pockets) and the cables kept short, that should be safer, of course.

Given the cell phone and Blackberry explosion, none of the manufacturers are eager to support their own idea from the 1970s of using full-length cables such as 20 meters (and extension cables up to 100 meters) in this type of configuration any more; the trend is more toward compact microphones with balanced outputs.

I just got Fozzy's Lemosax and I tried running a pair of KC5 cables that terminate in 3 Pin Lemo connectors. For some reason, I am not getting a signal throught the 3 pin lemos and can't figure out why.

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2008, 11:05:12 PM »
I think that the pin assignments might be different from Schoeps bodies and that is why the Lemosax fails to power the capsules properly.


16. SPECIAL VERSIONS

SX-M2/LS
Designed for use by sound engineers, working frequently with the same pair of condenser or electret microphones, this version provides the same high quality amplification and features as the SX-M2.

The difference between the two versions is that the SX-M2/LS allows the user to directly connect the capsules without the microphone body thus creating a significant diminution of power consumption.

Technical changes

To be able to place the electronics of the microphone body inside the SX-M2/LS, LEMO connectors are used instead of the NEUTRIK XLR for the microphone inputs.

LEMO in L: Shield = Gnd, Pin 1 = +10V, 2 = +48V, 3 = signal in

LEMO in R: Shield = Gnd, Pin 1 = +10V, 2 = +48V, 3 = signal in


The SX-M2/LS can be used for all condenser or electret microphones having the possibility of changing the capsules on the microphone body, such as: Colette series of Schoeps, Blue Line of Sanken, or the similar line of Neumann.

It is important for these kind of microphones to use a good quality active cable. When buying the cable from a microphone manufacturer, do inform them that the amplification electronics often used in the cables is not required.



I was digging around and found that someone else had a question about running their Neumann cables with the Lemosax and here is what a couple of people answered:

Quote

Question:
I would like to attempt to make my LC3KA cables into the older style LC3 cables for use with the Lemosax. I would like to know what the internal cable designations of the LC3KA are so as to correctly wire the lemo connector. Does anyone know? Also, the pin designations on the lemosax are:

Shield = Gnd, Pin 1 = +10V, 2 = +48V, 3 = signal in

The Ak capsules use a 48V output for polarization, correct? 



Answer:

Dear Mr. Liu,

the wires in the LC3 are assigned in the following way:
Shield = GND = 0V
white = 10V = outer ring contact
green = 50 V polarization voltage (48V is fine as well) = middle ring contact
brown = signal = central pin.

Please check polarity of the signal, e.g. comparing with standard wired mics. The AKs need -50V to produce correct polarity in unbalanced connections, so probably you will have to invert polarity when mixing with other signals.

Best regards,
Martin Schneider / Neumann Mic. Development 


In addition the only information that I could find on old Schoeps cable pin assignments are as follows:
CMC -U XLR-3 connector with pin1 = GND, pin2 = + signal, pin 3 = - signal
CMC -D Tuchel-3 connector with pin1 = + signal, pin2 = GND, pin3 = - signal
CMC -F Sogie-7 connector (French market only) with pin H = + signal, pin D = - signal, pin C = B = GND
CMC -L Lemo-3 connector plus a constant current diode for P24 .. P48 powering (Austrian market only)


« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 11:35:21 PM by NOLAfishwater »

Online H₂O

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2008, 11:22:31 PM »
Based on the logic here, shouldn't it be possible to run Neumann capsules with the VMS02ib as well (with the right custom cable) or even the VMS5(through the binder connector)?




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Offline shaggy

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2008, 11:52:10 PM »
Dave (OFOTD) has some older neumanns w/ the lemo LC3 cables.  We tried these into my SX-M2/LS2 and I couldn't get them to pass a signal.  naturally it works fine w/ the MK4v > KCY > Lemosax

Is there something different w/ the older style neumanns?

I have the SX-M2/LS2 and AK##>LC3 and it works perfectly. 

Louie, I was the one originally that asked about the LC3KA cable hack for a lemo version (like the LC3); that is my post on the Neumann thread.  In the end, hammerhorror sold a pair of LC3s for the SX-M2/LS2.  I thought that Neumann in CT did the mods to LC3KAs a while back, but they don't anymore.

- Mr. Liu


Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2008, 12:01:10 AM »
Dave (OFOTD) has some older neumanns w/ the lemo LC3 cables.  We tried these into my SX-M2/LS2 and I couldn't get them to pass a signal.  naturally it works fine w/ the MK4v > KCY > Lemosax

Is there something different w/ the older style neumanns?

I have the SX-M2/LS2 and AK##>LC3 and it works perfectly. 

Louie, I was the one originally that asked about the LC3KA cable hack for a lemo version (like the LC3); that is my post on the Neumann thread.  In the end, hammerhorror sold a pair of LC3s for the SX-M2/LS2.  I thought that Neumann in CT did the mods to LC3KAs a while back, but they don't anymore.

- Mr. Liu



I am going to take the cable to my buddy locally to see what he thinks. If we can't figure out how to change the pin assignments, then I will send them to a custom audio company in Maryland that builds custom Schoeps cables and have them put new 3 pin lemo connnectors on them. I sent and email to Sonosax. Hopefully I will hear back from them as well. Will keep everyone posted.

Offline sygdwm

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2008, 09:22:13 AM »
Dave (OFOTD) twoodruff has some older neumanns w/ the lemo LC3 cables.  We tried these into my SX-M2/LS2 and I couldn't get them to pass a signal.  naturally it works fine w/ the MK4v > KCY > Lemosax

Is there something different w/ the older style neumanns?


louie, find out if we can make this work. so we can borrow yours.  :)
mics: (4)akg c460b(a60,mk46,ck1x,ck1,ck2,ck3,ck61,ck63)
pres: oade m148/edirol wmod ua5
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And GODDAMN did I use ALOT of smilies in that post ;D 8) :smoking: :spin:
(P.S.: On a threaded discussion board like this one, there's no need to repeat someone's post when you reply to them; everyone can see all the messages in the thread.)

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2008, 12:56:13 PM »
I called Lemo to get some information on the connector and schematics/wiring diagram.

Part Number Male:  FFA.0S.303.CLAC17
Part Number Female: PCA.0S.303.CLLC17

http://www.lemo.com/partnum_search.do

This looks like the pin assignment.



Don't know if I will be able to salvage the Lemo connectors. They are $20 each. Or I could just bypass using the 3 pin lemos and just have them both terminate into a male KCY 5 pin binder plug and be done with this. The only problem is that I purchased 2 KC cables that terminate into lemos and an extension lemo to lemo cable. I don't want to have to list that thing on Ebay b/c there is a good chance people won't want it. who knows.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 01:33:31 PM by NOLAfishwater »

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2008, 04:58:40 PM »
What I have now:
2 x Schoeps KC-L cables that terminate in 3 pin Lemo connectors
1 x 15' Schoeps KC cable that ends in Lemos on both ends.

Here are my options:

1) Keep the lemo set up and just change out a couple of lemo connectors $80 and have them make me a matching extension cable for $100.

Pros:Lemos offer a sturdy connection
Cons: Two cables versus one KCY

or

2) Make the two KC-L cables into one KCY that terminates in a 5pin binder connector $186 and have them build me a an extension cable for $100. The KCY would have 1' of lead from the splitter box (suggestions;longer or shorter?) Then I would have to sell the lemo extension cable.

Pros - 1 cable/easy setup and can be used with the Schoeps stereo body.
Cons - 5 pin binder is succeptible to wear and tear


Offline timP

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2008, 07:04:32 PM »
Pro in Option Two: 5 pin binder screws in.
do the lemo tip screw in as well?
?>FR2LE

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2008, 07:21:00 PM »
Cons - 5 pin binder is succeptible to wear and tear

FWIW, I never found this to be the case.  I had lemos on my old Neuamann's, and while I didn't use them, just from touch & feel they seemed less robust than the 5-pin binder.  YMMV.
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Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2008, 07:39:24 PM »
Cons - 5 pin binder is succeptible to wear and tear

FWIW, I never found this to be the case.  I had lemos on my old Neuamann's, and while I didn't use them, just from touch & feel they seemed less robust than the 5-pin binder.  YMMV.

I think that is the option that I am leaning towards. Just sucks that I have to sell that extension cable on Ebay. Doubt that anyone here on the board would need such a unique cable.

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2008, 03:02:13 PM »
looks like a KCY is in the works. Hopefully I should have it sometime in the next couple of weeks.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2011, 01:01:42 AM »
Isnt this the exact cable I need to go from MK41>Lemosax ??? I want the one thats 5meters[16feet]. Isnt this the correct cable? Pro Sound in NYC told me it is in fact 5m[16'] but was just wondering what yinz had to say. I DO NOT want an extension cable like I would need for the KCY 250/0. The 250/5 is 5meters long, correct?

http://www.pro-sound.com/BrandSch/SSCHKCY2505Ig.html
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Re: Questions about the Sonosax SX-M2/LS
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 04:03:45 PM »
Right you want the KCY 250/5 if you do not want to use an extension cable.  The one in the pic represents the KCY250/0 but from the price it looks they are selling the KCY 250/5.

So it looks like this is the right cable just that the pic is misleading.

Latest pricelist is here:
http://reddingaudio.com/downloads/Schoeps%20Technical/Schoeps_4-8-2011-PNPL.pdf

Look on page 10.

You may want to ask here for one used before going new. As you would save a few hundred bucks.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 04:05:35 PM by H²O »
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