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Author Topic: very simple setup for stealth recording  (Read 28272 times)

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Offline wannabetaper

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very simple setup for stealth recording
« on: November 11, 2008, 07:14:17 AM »
Hello all,
I would like to record a concert that I will be attending in a couple of weeks, sitting in the first row. I have zero experience and would like to work with a very simple setup... I want to enjoy the concert and not to have to be paranoid about being caught and don't want to bother with fake earplugs mics, glass clipped mics, or stuff like that. I thought about simply putting a zoom H2 in the front pocket of my shirt but after checking the dimensions it looks like it is a little too big and it wouldn't be discreet enough (remember I will be on the first row!). Then I thought, why not put it in the slightly larger front pocket of a business suit. Yet it will still be obvious that I have something in that pocket. I also checked the dimensions of the Tascam recorder, which is a little taller but also thinner. But I think the metal mics of the Tascam will be particularly obvious, especially for someone looking from above (in particular from the stage). Another possibility would be to wear one of those very thin silk scarves one sometimes wear with suits to hide the pocket. Do you think that makes sense or does it sound like the best recipe for getting something absolutely inaudible? Also what about having the recorder inside a (non closed) bag, on my laps?
Any suggestion is welcome as long as the budget remains reasonable and it's simple enough...
Thanks a lot in advance for your kind help!

Offline Belexes

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2008, 07:35:52 AM »
I'd enjoy the front row seat and leave the taping to someone else.  The results using internal mics from a shirt pocket from front row may not be worth the hassle.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2008, 09:11:55 AM »
I would like to record a concert that I will be attending in a couple of weeks, sitting in the first row. I have zero experience and would like to work with a very simple setup... I want to enjoy the concert and not to have to be paranoid about being caught and don't want to bother

Let us know how that works out.  I have a very similar dream about skydiving off the empire state building.  I have never skydived before and don't really want to practice in advance.  I just want to take the elevator up and do it right on my first try.  Preferably on the way out to a nice night out on the town.  I figure I can hide the chute under my dinner jacket and just have someone hold it while I do the jump.   I could waste a lot of time searching the archive and reading the countless posts on how experienced people do this but I don't want to bother.  Just jump and pull the cord, right?  I don't want to be paranoid about this either.   I also want to do this on a reasonable budget.

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 09:44:04 AM »
One interpretation of FL's comments...

Taping, particularly stealth, requires commitment and compromises.  If one wants to get a good recording, one can't:  <a> behave the same way one normally would at a concert, <b> expect to do so perfectly without practice, <c> ignore appropriate placement of the mics to achieve the desired results, and <d> expect the desired results (whatever they are) without allocating an appropriate budget.

FWIW, the front row generally doesn't provide very good sound, as someone else noted already.  Answer a few questions to help yourself decide whether it's worth it:

  • What's your budget?
  • With what quality of result would you be happy?  Maybe download a few stealth recordings, maybe made with just the recorder's internal mics, and others with recorder + external head-worn mics, to determine what quality you find acceptable.
  • Are you willing to remain quiet, in a fixed position, for the duration of the concert?
  • What's your willingness to accept risk, for example getting denied enetry or booted out of the venue if caught?
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Offline wannabetaper

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 09:58:19 AM »
Thank you Freelunch for your very helpful post. FYI I have already browsed the archive and read zillions of posts about the not great preamps of the mic input of the zoom, about the various microphone possibilities, with or without battery box, etc. On the other hand I have also read that some people were quite happy with the recordings they got by just slipping the zoom in their shirt pocket. But at the end of the day, I still have no idea what would work for me. It's like reading about cars when you have never driven a car yourself.

I think my question is quite simple. I just want to keep some memories of a particular concert, of course I don't expect to get high quality on my first attempt. But I am just wondering if it is worth trying. Belexes said no. At least he answered the question. To make things even more concrete: if I have a zoom in a front pocket, how is it likely to compare with the sound one would get from a low-end to average camcorder that would be pointed directly to the stage? If it is not worse, then that maybe good enough for me...

Update after reading Brian's reply: My budget is that for a zoom or slightly more expensive recorder. I am willing to stay still and keep a jacket even though it will likely be hot but I don't want to take a chance of being caught. I don't think that in this kind of concert people will be checked at the entrance, so it is enough that the recorder is not visible during the concert. Thanks!

Offline J.Maye

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 10:39:16 AM »
You might be satisfied with an R-09's internal mics. I think they sound better then a standard camcorder. Download a show and see if it might work for you.
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 11:05:28 AM »
If this would be your first experience taping, and if you arn't interested in taping in general since this is a one-off experience, then I (personally) wouldn't.

From a security standpoint, there will be more light on you in the first row (which generally doesn't have very good sound for taping***) then anywhere else in the venue. So your odds of being caught are exponentially higher. So once you mitigate those by conceiling your equipment, the recording that you get out of it, generally isn't worth keeping or listening to again. If it's going to be a fairly large show, consider seeing if anyone else is going that generally stealth tapes and offer to assist in any way they think might be helpful.

So in that light, I think Brian's 3rd and 4th questions are the biggest ones that you should consider, then a 5th would be "what likelyhood do you see yourself taping again". If it's not very much, then I (personally) don't think it is worth the expense and the cost of the experience at the show.

**Orechestral, and other unamplified instruments being the exception.

Disclaimer: I gave up stealth taping and my wife will *never* go to a show again with me if I were going to stealth tape it, it's just not nearly as enjoyable.

Best of luck, take care.
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Offline Belexes

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 11:11:27 AM »
Your seat location is troublesome.  Even with an R-09 in your pocket, from the front row it just won't be optimal.  I have downloaded internal mic recordings from Dime and wonder why anyone would bother with the attempt, stealthwise.  If you must tape, I'd move further back in the venue.

Here's a nice-price R-09 in the yard:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,112910.0.html

We often see new tapers here that want a good tape, but don't want to sacrifice anything.  You almost have to for good results, meaning sitting further back in the venue, not moving during the performance, and other factors like Brian mentioned.  To me, I think it's all worth it when you get a good capture of one of your favorite perfomers.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 11:19:59 AM by Belexes »
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2008, 11:20:16 AM »
Hello all,
I would like to record a concert that I will be attending in a couple of weeks, sitting in the first row. I have zero experience and would like to work with a very simple setup... I want to enjoy the concert and not to have to be paranoid about being caught and don't want to bother with fake earplugs mics, glass clipped mics, or stuff like that. I thought about simply putting a zoom H2 in the front pocket of my shirt but after checking the dimensions it looks like it is a little too big and it wouldn't be discreet enough (remember I will be on the first row!). Then I thought, why not put it in the slightly larger front pocket of a business suit. Yet it will still be obvious that I have something in that pocket. I also checked the dimensions of the Tascam recorder, which is a little taller but also thinner. But I think the metal mics of the Tascam will be particularly obvious, especially for someone looking from above (in particular from the stage). Another possibility would be to wear one of those very thin silk scarves one sometimes wear with suits to hide the pocket. Do you think that makes sense or does it sound like the best recipe for getting something absolutely inaudible? Also what about having the recorder inside a (non closed) bag, on my laps?
Any suggestion is welcome as long as the budget remains reasonable and it's simple enough...
Thanks a lot in advance for your kind help!

Take a look at this recorder your not going to find a better deal anywhere and most would agree the r09 is a great recorder.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,112910.msg1510978.html#msg1510978
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nameloc01

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2008, 04:23:19 PM »
To be quite honest, seeing as how you don't have any experience or a rig..its gonna be tough for you to pull a recording from the front row. Not to mention, as stated earlier, the sound isn't going to be the best in the front row. If I were you, even though you want a recording of the show, is just enjoy your nice seat and hope someone else is there taping it. You are taking a big chance on being caught and ejected all for (without doing things the "right way" with a somewhat decent rig) for what would probably end up being a - at best,with luck on your side- mediocre tape.

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2008, 05:37:44 PM »
I would like to record a concert that I will be attending in a couple of weeks, sitting in the first row. I have zero experience and would like to work with a very simple setup... I want to enjoy the concert and not to have to be paranoid about being caught and don't want to bother

Let us know how that works out.  I have a very similar dream about skydiving off the empire state building.  I have never skydived before and don't really want to practice in advance.  I just want to take the elevator up and do it right on my first try.  Preferably on the way out to a nice night out on the town.  I figure I can hide the chute under my dinner jacket and just have someone hold it while I do the jump.   I could waste a lot of time searching the archive and reading the countless posts on how experienced people do this but I don't want to bother.  Just jump and pull the cord, right?  I don't want to be paranoid about this either.   I also want to do this on a reasonable budget.


My thoughts exactly. LOL.

Excellent post.

To the original poster: Don't bother. I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all. If you're half-assed about it, you will not get the result.

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Offline rotorvator

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 05:48:31 PM »
Hi there, i am also a newbie on here and would like to record the gigs that i go too for listening again at home. generally we are standing at gigs and need a stealth recorder which will convert / record directly to mp3 format. I have done some internet searches and like the look of the Edirol R-09HR which you guys seem to give a good review on this thread. If i were to buy one of these would i also need to buy external mics to go with it or would the internal mics give me a good recording from say inside a shirt pocket to be played on an Mp3 player. also Is there anywhere where i can listen to a recording made on one of these with and internal mic on this forum??
I look forward to hearing your expert help which will be of great benifit to me.

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2008, 05:56:15 PM »
Hi there, i am also a newbie on here and would like to record the gigs that i go too for listening again at home. generally we are standing at gigs and need a stealth recorder which will convert / record directly to mp3 format. I have done some internet searches and like the look of the Edirol R-09HR which you guys seem to give a good review on this thread. If i were to buy one of these would i also need to buy external mics to go with it or would the internal mics give me a good recording from say inside a shirt pocket to be played on an Mp3 player. also Is there anywhere where i can listen to a recording made on one of these with and internal mic on this forum??
I look forward to hearing your expert help which will be of great benifit to me.

Why waste money on good external mics/recorder to record in mp3...??
Mics:
AT933/C

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Offline rastasean

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2008, 05:58:01 PM »
Hi there, i am also a newbie on here and would like to record the gigs that i go too for listening again at home. generally we are standing at gigs and need a stealth recorder which will convert / record directly to mp3 format. I have done some internet searches and like the look of the Edirol R-09HR which you guys seem to give a good review on this thread. If i were to buy one of these would i also need to buy external mics to go with it or would the internal mics give me a good recording from say inside a shirt pocket to be played on an Mp3 player. also Is there anywhere where i can listen to a recording made on one of these with and internal mic on this forum??
I look forward to hearing your expert help which will be of great benifit to me.

If you want reviews of the HR, start here: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,100541.0.html

it will tell you everything you need to know.
READ

Don't expect to absorb this shit overnight and don't expect to get great results the first time. don't record anything worthwhile in MP3.
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Offline rotorvator

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2008, 05:59:50 PM »
Hi there, i am also a newbie on here and would like to record the gigs that i go too for listening again at home. generally we are standing at gigs and need a stealth recorder which will convert / record directly to mp3 format. I have done some internet searches and like the look of the Edirol R-09HR which you guys seem to give a good review on this thread. If i were to buy one of these would i also need to buy external mics to go with it or would the internal mics give me a good recording from say inside a shirt pocket to be played on an Mp3 player. also Is there anywhere where i can listen to a recording made on one of these with and internal mic on this forum??
I look forward to hearing your expert help which will be of great benifit to me.

Why waste money on good external mics/recorder to record in mp3...??


what is the best format to record in then??? long term i will probably end up listening to the recordings on my ipod so will any other type of recording give me any further benefit

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2008, 06:04:41 PM »
The best way is to record in pure lossless WAV files (which the Edirol will do). That way you are getting the best sound out of the mics used. You can always convert to mp3 afterwards for playback.

My suggestion is Church Audio (check the retail forum).

Try either CA-11 or CA-14 and grab an Edirol and you're set.
Mics:
AT933/C

Batt-Boxes, Pre-amps:
CA-9100

Recorders:
Edirol R-09
iRiver H120 (CF Modded)
Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD

Video: Canon HV20 E

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2008, 05:57:33 PM »
To expand on what Liquid Drum said, I believe that many recorders that do a great job recording in WAV format do not do such a good job recording in mp3 format. That is, if you record in WAV and convert it to mp3 yourself with a good converter, the mp3 will sound better than if you made your recording directly to mp3. I know this is true with the Zoom H4 (not that I would recommend that recorder for taping a concert).

The CA-11's and CA-14's are great mics and an incredible bargain. However if you order them now you will not receive them within 2 weeks unless you arrange with Chris Church at the time of your order for some sort of priority shipment. And you would have to do so quickly. I think it may take a week or so just from the time Chris gets the package to the post office in Canada to its arrival in the U.S.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 05:20:59 AM by fmaderjr »
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 08:31:41 PM »
To expand on what Liquid Drum said, I believe that many recorders that do a great job recording in WAV format do not do such a good job recording in mp3 format. That is, if you record in WAV and convert it to mp3 yourself with a good converter, the mp3 will sound better than if you made your recording directly to mp3. I know this is true with the Zoom H4 (not that I would recommend that recorder for taping a concert).

The CA-11's and CA-14's are great mics and an incredible bargain. However if you order them now you will not receive them within 2 weeks unless you arrange with Chris Church at the time of your order for some sort of priority shipment. And you would have to do so quickly. I think it may take a week or so just from the time Chris get the package to the post office in Canada to its arrival in the U.S.

Build times on all mics is now 1-2 weeks Max.

Chris
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 05:19:55 AM »
Great news Chris! And even when the wait was longer, it was well worth the wait.
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Offline mbself

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 09:14:19 AM »
I am new to taping concerts from the audience.  I am not, however, and audio newbie.  I have worked in recording studios and recorded events such as church services and band rehearsals.  Now that I have started taping live concerts i have re-learned a lot of lessons and un-learned some more.

Right now, I have recorded 4 events with a 5th one happening Saturday night.  I can assure you that there is no way to get it right on your 1st trip out.  I have the Zoom H2 and the last show I taped was with the internal mics.  It was the Birmingham STP show.  I was about 20 rows back, just right of center.  The recording was really good.  Not perfect, but really good.  Those with whom i have shared the recording are amazed at how well the little unit did.

Would my little recording hold up to the scrutiny of the tapers here with their complex taping rigs and multiple battery powered gizmos?  No, especially when they read the lineage and it says Audience>Zoom H2>Internal Mics etc....

Of course I do have access to better than just the H2 with internal mics, but the hassle of carrying it and using it is too great for me. 

If you are going to use the Zoom H2 with internal mics from the front row this is how I would set it up. 

1.  Low cut filter: On
2.  Mic sensitivity: Low
3.  AGC/Compression: Off
4.  Use the mics on the back: 120 degree
5.  16bit 44.1khz minimum (24bit 48khz if you ever do use quality external mics)
6.  Begin recording with the record levels at about 50......look at the record level meter and make sure the peaks hit at about -6 but never quite reach 0
7.  Use the tripod mount threaded hole on the bottom to find a way to hang it around your neck instead of using a pocket (reverse L/R position of mic as unit will be hanging upside down.

These are the lessons I have learned in the 5 shows I have taped so far.  Hopefully this Black Crows show Saturday will be my most successful outing yet.

Offline mmadd29

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2008, 10:48:29 AM »
I would record all shows in .wav format.  This is what I do, I do 44.1.  Then I save a copy on a hard drive, then mix and burn to cd.  I then rip the cd to mp3 for playback on my extra iriver in my car. 

I would never record to mp3 format...I probably should do 96K, but I'm too lazy........
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 03:11:19 PM »
I believe its best to leave the record level at 100. If you need to set it below 100 to keep the meters from hitting 0 DB you will still get a clipped recording. If the meters go over at low sensitivity/100, the only thing you can do to eliminate clipping is to move away from the source (or use an attenuator or a preamp that can attenuate like the ST-9100). I know this is true of the Zoom H4 and according to Ozpeter, it is also true of the H2. He explains why here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89082.msg1222401.html#msg1222401

At least if you leave the level at 100 and the meters are going over, you know you need to move away from the source.
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Offline jacobmyers

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2008, 08:38:34 PM »
I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.
That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

I've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man" and a nice adrenaline rush. But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

If you're going to "stealth" record an event, you're not going to the show to "have fun" in the "traditional" whoop and holler and drink gallons of beer sense. Making and escaping with a good recording is the "fun". You're there to surreptitiously record audio (which will then, presumably, be quasi-legally distributed). There is the risk of discovery, being apprehended, and being forced to "destroy" the recording (or surrender equipment). It's not a task for the faint of heart or the undisciplined.

As it turns out; it's not for the recovering-from-back-injury, either. I have enough problems lately just sitting through a show, let alone sitting perfectly still. So I tape openly; with the permission of either the band, the venue, or both. I get better-sounding recordings and I don't have to worry about anything except keeping the drunks off my stand. Anyway; best of luck to you.

Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 08:46:45 PM »

That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

 But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

I agree totally.
I have heard only a handful of stealth tapes that I would listen to more than once.
 
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 09:10:42 PM »

That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

 But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

I agree totally.
I have heard only a handful of stealth tapes that I would listen to more than once.
 
I record quite a lot of shows "stealth", particularly outdoor and festival shows.  I often don't have time to get permissions and to set up in advance.  I just record (from my hat) and sort it out later.  However, I am careful what I distribute.  Most of these recordings are for myself only.  If I get something good I will try to get back to the artist(s).

The other day I recorded Justin Rutledge (Canadian alt-country guy) and I gave him a DVD of four or five previous "hat" shows...

  Richard
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Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2008, 01:44:56 PM »
Actually most of the samples that you put on your site are splendid Richard. 8)

I was more referring to stuff I've downloaded, mainly jazz and bluegrass and a few rock.
I made a very general statement and should have specified.
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News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
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Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2008, 02:01:40 PM »
I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.
That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

I've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man" and a nice adrenaline rush. But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

If you're going to "stealth" record an event, you're not going to the show to "have fun" in the "traditional" whoop and holler and drink gallons of beer sense. Making and escaping with a good recording is the "fun". You're there to surreptitiously record audio (which will then, presumably, be quasi-legally distributed). There is the risk of discovery, being apprehended, and being forced to "destroy" the recording (or surrender equipment). It's not a task for the faint of heart or the undisciplined.

As it turns out; it's not for the recovering-from-back-injury, either. I have enough problems lately just sitting through a show, let alone sitting perfectly still. So I tape openly; with the permission of either the band, the venue, or both. I get better-sounding recordings and I don't have to worry about anything except keeping the drunks off my stand. Anyway; best of luck to you.

Not to be a dick but that is wrong (imo). It is more than possible to get an excellent 'stealth' recording but you have to work for it. I.E. decent gear, good location, mics not covered, etc...

I have heard alot of decent stealth recordings. It is the same with 'open' recordings. If you don't put the work in, you don't get a good tape. I have heard some supposedly 'open' recordings that sound very poor. Also have heard some excellent open tapes.

It works the same for open AND stealth. Ok, stealth is a little more tricky but you can get just as good results. It's all about LOCATION (and the PA sound/venue).
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Offline rhinowing

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2008, 02:25:12 PM »
The whole point of taping, imo, is the music, not how perfect you can make your tape sound or how much gear you have. For example, look at when Dylan played with the White Stripes a few years ago. A stealth tape was the only thing that was made of that show, but I don't see anyone complaining.

edit-or, all the Hendrix/Zeppelin/JGB shows where taping wasn't allowed. I feel like this debate has been done to death a million times already, though.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 02:27:44 PM by rhinowing »
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Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2008, 02:35:49 PM »
The whole point of taping, imo, is the music, not how perfect you can make your tape sound or how much gear you have. For example, look at when Dylan played with the White Stripes a few years ago. A stealth tape was the only thing that was made of that show, but I don't see anyone complaining.

edit-or, all the Hendrix/Zeppelin/JGB shows where taping wasn't allowed. I feel like this debate has been done to death a million times already, though.

I agree 100%

It just annoys me a little when people assume things and/or have elitist attitudes.

BTW, I mainly stealth but have open taped before.
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Offline Dede2002

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2008, 03:55:05 PM »
I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.
That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:D

I've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man" and a nice adrenaline rush. But the majority of the "stealth" recordings I've heard (on LMA, as well as my own) are passable at best. And I've heard stuff there that, frankly, isn't fit to waste space on a hard disk. There are some with microphone adjustments in mid-recording (that skew the previously excellent image) or they 'bump' the microphone (or cable) several times during the set. Those are recordings with five-star ratings that rave about their "high quality". ::)

If you're going to "stealth" record an event, you're not going to the show to "have fun" in the "traditional" whoop and holler and drink gallons of beer sense. Making and escaping with a good recording is the "fun". You're there to surreptitiously record audio (which will then, presumably, be quasi-legally distributed). There is the risk of discovery, being apprehended, and being forced to "destroy" the recording (or surrender equipment). It's not a task for the faint of heart or the undisciplined.

As it turns out; it's not for the recovering-from-back-injury, either. I have enough problems lately just sitting through a show, let alone sitting perfectly still. So I tape openly; with the permission of either the band, the venue, or both. I get better-sounding recordings and I don't have to worry about anything except keeping the drunks off my stand. Anyway; best of luck to you.

Not to be a dick but that is wrong (imo). It is more than possible to get an excellent 'stealth' recording but you have to work for it. I.E. decent gear, good location, mics not covered, etc...

I have heard alot of decent stealth recordings. It is the same with 'open' recordings. If you don't put the work in, you don't get a good tape. I have heard some supposedly 'open' recordings that sound very poor. Also have heard some excellent open tapes.

It works the same for open AND stealth. Ok, stealth is a little more tricky but you can get just as good results. It's all about LOCATION (and the PA sound/venue).

That's exactly what I've been saying. It may sound obvious, but the "location, location, location" rule is not good enough. Without a nice sounding PA/venue, forget about it.
Comments about the stealth issue. As far as I know, open taping  is not an option outside the US. In my country ( and in most european countries), if you ask for permission, man, in you are in a world of pain. To most venues ( not the bands though), it would be the same as if you asking them to allow you to break in during the night, drink all the beer, eat the food and leave. They wouldn't be very happy with this at all, you can imagine.
If open taping is not an option and you love taping, just do it. Be carefull, be happy. ;)

« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 03:59:13 PM by Dede2002 »
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Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2008, 04:02:12 PM »
Personally from the stuff I have grabbed the biggest issue is phasing/panning effect.
Whether its the moving of the head or people passing in front of you, I have no clue.
That ruins the tape for me. It's seems very common on stealth tapes that I've heard.

Also I do think open tapes sound better. Just my opinion of what I've heard.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 04:06:40 PM by newplanet7 »
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hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

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FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2008, 04:11:08 PM »
Personally from the stuff I have grabbed the biggest issue is phasing/panning effect.
Whether its the moving of the head or people passing in front of you, I have no clue.
That ruins the tape for me. It's seems very common on stealth tapes that I've heard.

Also I do think open tapes sound better. Just my opinion of what I've heard.

Its all about location and polar pattern of the mics.. IMO you dont want hyper card for recording stealth you want a lose card or an omni depending on the venue.. And you dont want to move your head.. I suggest a neck collar :) Don'T use red wire like this guy and DO wear a shirt... :)
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Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2008, 04:21:11 PM »
^^LOL. A shirt would be a good idea..  :P
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Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2008, 04:23:37 PM »
^^LOL. A shirt would be a good idea..  :P
:lol:
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2008, 04:49:25 PM »
Personally from the stuff I have grabbed the biggest issue is phasing/panning effect.
Whether its the moving of the head or people passing in front of you, I have no clue.
That ruins the tape for me. It's seems very common on stealth tapes that I've heard.

Also I do think open tapes sound better. Just my opinion of what I've heard.

Its all about location and polar pattern of the mics.. IMO you dont want hyper card for recording stealth you want a lose card or an omni depending on the venue.. And you dont want to move your head.. I suggest a neck collar :) Don'T use red wire like this guy and DO wear a shirt... :)

Hey, that's me!

Seriously, phasing is not much of an issue if you stay (roughly) facing forward.  Slowly move sideways and/or forward/backward to keep away from talkers.  Try to move between songs.  Oh yeah, get a friend to buy beers for you...

  Richard
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nameloc01

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2008, 05:34:38 PM »
The "stealth tapers" are the people who record ALL of the relevant and important music...whether they are "allowed" to or not. They are obviously doing it for the music and the music alone.

I have to question the ultimate mentality and motive of the "taper" who will only record the music *that he is told he's allowed to tape*. Think about that statement very carefully for a minute or two. This type of person falls into the "lifestyle taper" category, and that would be someone who is into just the "act" of taping the same or sometimes even more than the music he's actually recording. I'm sure we all know at least one (or 20) people like that.

Again, its just another way (much like the stupid "Ts") for some people to perpetuate some sort of superiority or in the case of the "elitist open taper"...resort to preaching morality (anti-stealth) to appear a better/cooler/superior  person.

By the way..I tape both open and stealth. It comes down to whatever the situation calls for.

Offline Will_S

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2008, 06:50:31 PM »
The "stealth tapers" are the people who record ALL of the relevant and important music...whether they are "allowed" to or not. They are obviously doing it for the music and the music alone.

BS.  Some do it for the music, but some do it to sell the recordings, some do it to gratify their egos (every bit, if not more, than many of the "lifestyle tapers") by posting it on DIME, some are obsessed with certain bands, etc.

Quote
I have to question the ultimate mentality and motive of the "taper" who will only record the music *that he is told he's allowed to tape*. Think about that statement very carefully for a minute or two. This type of person falls into the "lifestyle taper" category, and that would be someone who is into just the "act" of taping the same or sometimes even more than the music he's actually recording. I'm sure we all know at least one (or 20) people like that.

Huh?  You might have a point if you said "taper" who will record *ANY AND ALL* of the music that he is told he is allowed to tape.

But respecting an artists' wishes means you only care about the act of taping?  Whatever.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 06:52:23 PM by Will_S »

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2008, 07:47:29 PM »
IMO you dont want hyper card

Josephine's many excellent mk41 recordings are great examples that posture collars are not mandatory.

There is something to be said for good hypers when in a noisy crowd, shows where the performance isn't very loud and boomy venues.  Though there aren't many compact hypers that sound very good.

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nameloc01

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2008, 07:51:29 PM »
lol.

While I'm not talking to you specifically,...
If the only bands that allowed open taping were The Backstreet Boys,NSYNC and Britney...and *every single other band* on the planet was "no taping" would all of these "morality police tapers" simply stop taping? Or would they then only tape those shitty bands (because that's the only "bands" giving permission)??  or would they start stealth taping (because the preservation takes precedence) ??

Which would it be?

It goes back to the old saying " you're only free to choose from the choices you're given to choose from"

nameloc01

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2008, 08:07:49 PM »
And I agree with you about some "stealth tapers" obsessing and posting on Dime and shit like that.
Again, The Supreme Court ruled taping is not a crime..so you can go argue morality and "tapers/artists" wishes with them, as far as I'm concerned when an "artist" decides to play in public, knowing there are tapers about, and then sells tickets to said show and collects money, thus selling that moments aural experience to me/others (from the seat I/people paid for) its fair game and I'm gonna tape it (for myself) that's just how it is. And, as I'm sure you know, the "bootlegging" industry is basically dead (all for the *few* hardcore collectors/small Japanese companies that will always be there) that arguement shouldn't even be brought up...its weak and just an excuse (at least it is nowadays)

If so many people are worried about the "morality" and "artists wishes" they should put some effort into ticket scalpers and people selling bum tickets..as I'm sure the artists doesn't want people doing those things either.

And to kinda break it down for you the "lifestyle tapers" are basically like those "fratboy" fags who use to put on their cargo shorts and sandals and go to the latter day GD shows..sure, they probably "listened" to the GD,...but most of them were there for the scene in the lot. =lifestyle.

Offline Will_S

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2008, 09:10:19 PM »
While I'm not talking to you specifically,...

That's cool, I'll answer anyway.   ;D

Quote
If the only bands that allowed open taping were The Backstreet Boys,NSYNC and Britney...and *every single other band* on the planet was "no taping" would all of these "morality police tapers" simply stop taping?

Well, they'd probably sell off their LD mics and M148s and other bulky gear.  It might well be the death of open taping.  Of course, while I don't care for any of those bands and evidently you don't either, that doesn't mean there aren't folks who genuinely do.  It's a slippery slope if you think you can draw a clean line neatly separating all the bands that are worth taping and all the ones which aren't.

Quote
Or would they then only tape those shitty bands (because that's the only "bands" giving permission)?? 

Again, you're confusing taping ANYONE AND ENVERYONE who allows taping with only taping those taper-friendy bands you happen to like.  Me, I mostly like taper-friendly bands and so I tape them openly, I also like some non-friendly bands and go see them anyway, and there are plenty of taper-friendly bands I don't care for and would never go see.  I know folks who are more likely to give a new band a shot if they are taper friendly, but don't know anyone who will repeatedly tape someone they don't like.

Quote
or would they start stealth taping (because the preservation takes precedence) ??

For most big-time national acts, the "preservation takes precedence" argument is nonsense.  Preserving for YOU maybe, preserving for history,  :P.  Pretty much any big time band records every show themselves (or at least a few shows per tour, if they're one of those many bands who changes up nothing from night to night).  So for example when I go see Springsteen, I'm not going to bother taping.  There will be an official DVD at the end of the tour anyway.

For smaller bands, it would be a shame if none of their shows got recorded but does every single show need to be recorded?  Meh.  And for a smaller band, I find it a lot harder to use the excuse "it's my ticket and I paid for it and they're faceless rich bastards anyway" excuse.  I tape a bunch of folks who aren't officially taper friendly, but I ask them directly for permission, they tell me what's cool and what's not, and I look them in the eye and agree to it (or the whole deal is off if they want some weird condition attached).  I'm not going to "ask" someone, look him in the eye as he says no, and then do it anyway.  YMMV.

Anyway, who's more into the music at a show:  Someone who has their open rig dialed in to the extent that they press record, maybe double check levels once, and then walk away, or someone stealthing obsessing about every movement of their head and every glance from the ushers.  Just so they can "preserve" a show that a paid professional is also recording to multitrack gear?

Look, I'm not saying you're evil if you stealth.  I may have done it a time or two myself (to giant faceless entity bands).  But you have no ground to be bashing "lifestyle tapers" or pretending what you do is somehow purer or better.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2008, 09:19:38 PM »
You missing the point. I am adressing the attitude from the "elitist open tapers' who are anti-stealth taping. I don't really know any stealth-tapers who are "anti-open" taping. But, I do personally know a lot of stealth/open tapers who are "anti-elitist" which generally comes down from the "open-only" tapers. And its complete bullshit, and really is the final attempt at setting up some kind of heirarchy based on "morality".
The point was/is some people tape whatever it is that they happen to deem worthy, and some people only tape what they choose from he choices they are *given* to choose from....which to me, it bullshit. Pretty simple.

Offline Will_S

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2008, 09:29:43 PM »
You missing the point. I am adressing the attitude from the "elitist open tapers' who are anti-stealth taping. I don't really know any stealth-tapers who are "anti-open" taping. But, I do personally know a lot of stealth/open tapers who are "anti-elitist" which generally comes down from the "open-only" tapers. And its complete bullshit, and really is the final attempt at setting up some kind of heirarchy based on "morality".
The point was/is some people tape whatever it is that they happen to deem worthy, and some people only tape what they choose from he choices they are *given* to choose from....which to me, it bullshit. Pretty simple.

Ahh, it's bullshit to only tape bands that allow it, but you're not anti-open taping.  I get it now.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2008, 09:42:46 PM »
No,I'm not anti-taping at all...I've run open a few times. I'm anti-asshole/elitist. My point was the "elitism" always seems to flow from one specific direction.
Now that we're 500 miles off of topic, I'll sign off.

dorrcoq

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2008, 11:56:09 PM »
Personally from the stuff I have grabbed the biggest issue is phasing/panning effect.
Whether its the moving of the head or people passing in front of you, I have no clue.
That ruins the tape for me. It's seems very common on stealth tapes that I've heard.

Also I do think open tapes sound better. Just my opinion of what I've heard.

People don't walk in front of you when you open tape? ::)

dorrcoq

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2008, 12:11:07 AM »
What I don't understand is, if this guy wants to buy an inexpensive recorder and make at best a so-so recording for his own enjoyment, then why the fuck do some of you get upset about it?  His money, his time, his risk.  If you don't have constructive advice for him, like he requested, then don't post shit ripping him.

nameloc01

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2008, 12:30:59 AM »
I don't think anyone (at least I wasn't) was ripping on him, he just got some honest,blunt answers. Really, if you can finance some outboard mics, its kinda silly to take the risk of being caught (especially being in that location) for a tape that,unfortunately, will almost certainly not be all that good. I've taken shortcuts before, and have been very dissapointed afterwards, which very well may be the case here. If it were me, I'd get some remote mics and trade that front row seat for something more condusive to pulling a better sounding tape...you kinda have to be decide if you're there to tape (from the best sounding spot), or watch from the best possible seat...very seldomly are these locations one in the same.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2008, 01:27:03 AM »
I don't think anyone (at least I wasn't) was ripping on him, he just got some honest,blunt answers. Really, if you can finance some outboard mics, its kinda silly to take the risk of being caught (especially being in that location) for a tape that,unfortunately, will almost certainly not be all that good. I've taken shortcuts before, and have been very dissapointed afterwards, which very well may be the case here. If it were me, I'd get some remote mics and trade that front row seat for something more condusive to pulling a better sounding tape...you kinda have to be decide if you're there to tape (from the best sounding spot), or watch from the best possible seat...very seldomly are these locations one in the same.

If the PA is well designed you should have some fills in the middle, right?  Before I got into taping, I heard just fine up front at many shows.  Clubs are a common exception, but most bigger gigs should be done right.

 Richard
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2008, 01:57:25 AM »
So, lemme see if I understand correctly, nameloc.  People who believe musicians' perspectives on taping should be respected, share that opinion with others and only tape openly, are "lifestyle" tapers and elitist.  On the other hand, people who think open-only tapers are "lifestyle" tapers who don't really enjoy the music are not elitist.  Have I summarized your perspective correctly?
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2008, 07:30:56 AM »
I directly referring to people who will only tape "open" bands, who will not tape someone they would like to because they are not "open" and throw shit at the people who actually will,... thinking that somehow this makes them a better person. Most musicians,as I constantly read in interviews, aren't against the "taping" per se, they are against the selling of the recordings, as a lot of the "no taping" stems from their contracts. Now, there are exceptions obviously. And I never said every single person who only "open" tapes is a "lifestyle taper", but there are quite a few of them that are. Again, people who are into "the scene" just as much or more than the actual music itself. There are people like this everywhere, involved in everything,..so I'm really not "singling out" taping, that's just the topic at hand (reference the "frat-fag" lifestyle GD lot-goer).
And to point out, I suppose any "stealth-only" taper would fall into the same category, although, every  stealth that I know will or does run both when able.
Hell..would (not you personally Brian) not tape a band that was "okay" with taping just because they were playing in a "no taping" venue? Its the venue owners "wishes" right? We shouldn't tape..(?)

I think,myself, that probably every live show should be documented..I really do. Unfortunately, I do not have the time or means of doing every single show that has personal relevance to me, I pick and choose what shows that I'm able to do (for various reasons) and then do them,.."Open" or not, "venue permitting" or not. I do not sell my shit, I do not torrent my shit, never not once, I tape for myself. I most certainly do not sit around the house waiting for (which probably is ultimately "whomever") whatever band is playing and is "open" taping so I can go tape "someone", and then make some kind of "morality crudade" against people who don't do the same...the people who tape whatever needs taped (open or not)
Its no tapers responsiblity to "fight the good fight" for, what is in most cases, the record companies policies. Like I said, the "elitism" can,of course, work both ways, but 99.9999% its coming from one *very specific* place.

Now, I really don't know what your (brian) taping program is, even if you only "open" tape, I don't remember you ever making any crazy "anti-stealth taper" comments, so my comment/opinion most likely does not pertain to you. It does pertain to the certain select elitsists here (again attmetpting to make the "holier-than-thou" case), and the ones I have met in person at numerous shows.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2008, 07:38:05 AM »
Richard,
The sound may be fine up front, but then again there's a good chance it won't. I never said it would suck for sure, but, if it were I, I'd play it safe(r) and trade that seat for something that would have a better chance of making a good recording.I'd say that to anyone, that's all I meant.
-J

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2008, 08:10:56 AM »
FYI,..My comments were directed at the kind of people who make the comments like the one(s) ealier in this thread.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2008, 11:14:27 AM »
What I don't understand is, if this guy wants to buy an inexpensive recorder and make at best a so-so recording for his own enjoyment, then why the fuck do some of you get upset about it?  His money, his time, his risk.  If you don't have constructive advice for him, like he requested, then don't post shit ripping him.

I don't think anyone is upset...  But the dude is fun to laugh at.

He deserves to be ripped because he made it very clear that he isn't interested in making any effort.  He doesn't want to "bother".  That includes, apparently, researching the many times this question has been asked in the past.  There are people who come here and are genuinely interested in making the effort to learn.  That's Not this dude.

He doesn't even want to do any practice shows.  That's just moronic.

His attitude, combined with his zero experience, suggests there is a chance he'll get caught and that is bad for everyone.

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Offline Ekib

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2008, 11:20:06 AM »
Interesting topic !

My comments :

Open Taping...the quality doesn't have to be better than stealth. A lot of times when I was given the choice open taping the venue told me where to stand. That's not always the best location to get the best sounding recording. Usually open taping recordings are more stable than stealth for practical reasons. But sound wise I know better spots in a lot of venues than the spots for open taping.

I have done a lot of open taping in Holland where the venues didn't care at all. With the exception of one venue all the clubs / venues I have taped where very cooperative and helpful. Some venues even treat you like a royal. And that includes even bigger sized venues !
Like I said one venue doesn't want it here because they say it takes away from tickets they can sell. That was when we had permission to video and the gig was sold out.

Front Row...I have once taped a gig at the 3rd row in a bigger venue ( 2000 capacity ). For some reason the recording came out excellent.
Sometimes you just never know. I have taped from the left , right , center , FOB , Balcony etc.etc. Every venue is different. Some mix stereo , some don't. There is one venue which I am always standing on the right side very close to the PA. They don't mix stereo so it's a perfect spot. I did FOB in the same venue and it came out disappointing.
Usually when I am not familiar with a venue I walk through the venue checking the sweetest spot during the support acts .

Taping is a difficult job for sure !


But I have to say, I don’t mind it. I do object when I see people sticking microphones up my nose, in the front row. If I see anyone doing that [laughs] I’m going to have security remove them. Because that’s just obnoxious. But I don’t mind if people come and discreetly at the back make a recording of it. And I know that it’s just for their own use, for the superfan.
(Steven Wilson , interview http://blog.musoscribe.com/index.php/2011/01/25/interview-steven-wilson-on-audience-taping/ )

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2008, 11:40:40 AM »
What I don't understand is, if this guy wants to buy an inexpensive recorder and make at best a so-so recording for his own enjoyment, then why the fuck do some of you get upset about it?  His money, his time, his risk.  If you don't have constructive advice for him, like he requested, then don't post shit ripping him.

I don't think anyone is upset...  But the dude is fun to laugh at.

He deserves to be ripped because he made it very clear that he isn't interested in making any effort.  He doesn't want to "bother".  That includes, apparently, researching the many times this question has been asked in the past.  There are people who come here and are genuinely interested in making the effort to learn.  That's Not this dude.

He doesn't even want to do any practice shows.  That's just moronic.

His attitude, combined with his zero experience, suggests there is a chance he'll get caught and that is bad for everyone.

Why is it that if he gets caught it will be bad for everyone do you think they will torture him into letting them know about this place? Do you really think the security guards join T.S so they can find out where the stealth gear is hidden? You must think they have alot of spare time or care enough about there $12 per hour job..

This guy wanted some advice we gave it to him lets not kick the shit out of someone for starting out in this hobby and not knowing anything. Lets try and remember what stupid questions we asked when we started out. Maybe we can turn him into a productive taper who will not sell his recordings that to me seems more logical then beating up on him that seems to me to be more important in preventing problems for other tapers then just telling him how stupid he is... This elitist attitude is very sad this place is about helping the young guys out not laughing at them for not knowing as much as we do....

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2008, 11:43:43 AM »
This guy wanted some advice we gave it to him lets not kick the shit out of someone for starting out in this hobby and not knowing anything.

Saying it again: It is the lack of effort and lack of motivation.   You get out of it what you put into it.  He doesn't want to put anything into it.

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Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2008, 11:45:50 AM »
FYI,..My comments were directed at the kind of people who make the comments like the one(s) ealier in this thread.
I was merely stating that I have only grabbed a handful of stealth shows
that I was impressed with.
If you take that as a bad attitude, that's on you.
Most of the stuff I listen to is open taping.

Personally from the stuff I have grabbed the biggest issue is phasing/panning effect.
Whether its the moving of the head or people passing in front of you, I have no clue.
That ruins the tape for me. It's seems very common on stealth tapes that I've heard.

Also I do think open tapes sound better. Just my opinion of what I've heard.

People don't walk in front of you when you open tape? ::)
Thanks for the sarcasm.
I've not been a dick about anything in this thread or elite

I was stating that when one open tapes people walking in front of the taper doesn't cause any loss of sound because the mics are usually above the crowd.
When stealthing, you'd be wearing the mics on you're collar, in a hat, etc.....
Not above the crowd, so people that walk in front of you block sound.


Also I don't have any sort of hang up on stealth taping.
I open tape because that's the majority of what I listen to.
Being that, when I do listen to artist shows that I dig who aren't taper friendly and have to be
recorded on the hush, I don't think they come out nearly as good.

However, i think stealthing is just as valid as open.
It seems that you, nameloc, always try to bring it to open vs stealth tapers as a generality
in these threads.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 12:05:25 PM by newplanet7 »
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News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2008, 12:02:23 PM »
This guy wanted some advice we gave it to him lets not kick the shit out of someone for starting out in this hobby and not knowing anything.

Saying it again: It is the lack of effort and lack of motivation.   You get out of it what you put into it.  He doesn't want to put anything into it.

I think what happens is simple. People dont really realize how good the audio can be when its done right so they go on this journey of discovery. They buy a recorder and some of them think that the built in mics will work great. Then they discover they do not.. So at this point they will ether sell the recorder and never tape again or ask the next big question... How do I make my recordings sound better? That will get a huge range of answers..

1- Get a better recorder
2- Use external quality mics
3- Use a battery box or preamp
4- Learn about mic placement on the body.

If they make it past this phase they will be on the right path to better audio but for some people they just dont understand the mechanics of getting good sound and what is possible. Once they know that things can sound like a cd with good placement and a good sounding show they get bit by the "upgrade bug" Something most of you are very familiar with.

But not everyone gets to the same place at the same time and some never get why external mics and other gear is so important.. The Digital recording device companies have done a great job on advertising and convincing the novice recordists that all they need is the H2 or R09 and all his or her recording problems are over... Well we know that is simply not true, but I am pretty sure most of us learned that the hard way.

Its a great hobby where someone can spend as little as $250 and get some pretty good recordings or as much as $10,000 and get some really good recordings. There are no limits to the money that can be spent.

In the end the novice must ask them selves what do I want to accomplish with my recordings Great sound a true sense of being there or just a cheap reminder of the show? Unfortunately most of these guys and girls dont ask that question first and end up wasting alot of cash. But all of this is part of the learning process.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 12:04:17 PM by Church-Audio »
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2008, 12:04:21 PM »
"I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:DI've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man""

I take your comment as , unless you're "open" taping, you're not doing it "right"...am I reading this wrong?

The majority of stealth tapers aren't doing as a big "fuck you" to anyone....they are doing it because it needs to get taped and people like you aren't gonna get it done. Bottom line.

Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2008, 12:07:29 PM »
"I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:DI've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man""

I take your comment as , unless you're "open" taping, you're not doing it "right"...am I reading this wrong?

The majority of stealth tapers aren't doing as a big "fuck you" to anyone....they are doing it because it needs to get taped and people like you aren't gonna get it done. Bottom line.
That would be jacobmeyers not me.

Here's where I stand just like stated above.

Also I don't have any sort of hang up on stealth taping.
I open tape because that's the majority of what I listen to.
Being that, when I do listen to artist shows that I dig who aren't taper friendly and have to be
recorded on the hush, I don't think they come out nearly as good.

However, i think stealthing is just as valid as open.
It seems that you, nameloc, always try to bring it to open vs stealth tapers as a generality
in these threads.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 12:10:48 PM by newplanet7 »
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2008, 12:14:08 PM »
Sorry bout" that. I was simply  pointing out the dumb-ass elitist comments that were the target of my comments.
Carry on

Offline Ekib

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2008, 12:36:44 PM »
This guy wanted some advice we gave it to him lets not kick the shit out of someone for starting out in this hobby and not knowing anything.

Saying it again: It is the lack of effort and lack of motivation.   You get out of it what you put into it.  He doesn't want to put anything into it.

I think what happens is simple. People dont really realize how good the audio can be when its done right so they go on this journey of discovery. They buy a recorder and some of them think that the built in mics will work great. Then they discover they do not.. So at this point they will ether sell the recorder and never tape again or ask the next big question... How do I make my recordings sound better? That will get a huge range of answers..

1- Get a better recorder
2- Use external quality mics
3- Use a battery box or preamp
4- Learn about mic placement on the body.

If they make it past this phase they will be on the right path to better audio but for some people they just dont understand the mechanics of getting good sound and what is possible. Once they know that things can sound like a cd with good placement and a good sounding show they get bit by the "upgrade bug" Something most of you are very familiar with.

But not everyone gets to the same place at the same time and some never get why external mics and other gear is so important.. The Digital recording device companies have done a great job on advertising and convincing the novice recordists that all they need is the H2 or R09 and all his or her recording problems are over... Well we know that is simply not true, but I am pretty sure most of us learned that the hard way.

Its a great hobby where someone can spend as little as $250 and get some pretty good recordings or as much as $10,000 and get some really good recordings. There are no limits to the money that can be spent.

In the end the novice must ask them selves what do I want to accomplish with my recordings Great sound a true sense of being there or just a cheap reminder of the show? Unfortunately most of these guys and girls dont ask that question first and end up wasting alot of cash. But all of this is part of the learning process.



There are some good points there.

Back in the 80's I used to record with my Sony WM D3.


I had no clue about a good taping set up. Let alone there was something like Taperssection. But it was the best my money could buy at the time. And although against today's standards the recordings don't match up. I still treasure my recordings. It's not always about the quality. In the first place it's about the music itself. I prefer good music over good sound quality.

Nowadays I love my Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid set. Great stuff...use it for 10 years now.
But I have to say, I don’t mind it. I do object when I see people sticking microphones up my nose, in the front row. If I see anyone doing that [laughs] I’m going to have security remove them. Because that’s just obnoxious. But I don’t mind if people come and discreetly at the back make a recording of it. And I know that it’s just for their own use, for the superfan.
(Steven Wilson , interview http://blog.musoscribe.com/index.php/2011/01/25/interview-steven-wilson-on-audience-taping/ )

Offline Ekib

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2008, 12:45:10 PM »
"I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:DI've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man""

I take your comment as , unless you're "open" taping, you're not doing it "right"...am I reading this wrong?

The majority of stealth tapers aren't doing as a big "fuck you" to anyone....they are doing it because it needs to get taped and people like you aren't gonna get it done. Bottom line.

I think the open taping vs stealth taping is an open door. No one can win or lose this discussion.

However I do find a lot of artists off the record don't mind taping at all , but they can't allow it due to their record contract.
Like last April I was talking to Matt from Shadows Fall. He has told on many occasions he , and everyone in the band , doesn't care. But they signed a big contract with Atlantic and they can't officialy say yes. He literally told me he and his band has tried to persuade their management to allow their fans to tape their gigs. But he said they've given up on that. When I asked him if he didn't mind if I'd be taping he said go ahead and good luck !
I've also had bandmembers get my gear in at shows to avoid trouble with the venues.
On many occasions I've given old recordings to bands that came to town. And I've never had someone pointing the finger at me.
I've found even when most bands don't have an official policy , countless really don't mind off the record.
But I have to say, I don’t mind it. I do object when I see people sticking microphones up my nose, in the front row. If I see anyone doing that [laughs] I’m going to have security remove them. Because that’s just obnoxious. But I don’t mind if people come and discreetly at the back make a recording of it. And I know that it’s just for their own use, for the superfan.
(Steven Wilson , interview http://blog.musoscribe.com/index.php/2011/01/25/interview-steven-wilson-on-audience-taping/ )

Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2008, 12:51:55 PM »
Sorry bout" that. I was simply  pointing out the dumb-ass elitist comments that were the target of my comments.
Carry on
:kiss2:
Good day sir.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2008, 01:25:00 PM »
Yes Mr.Ekib, that's what I was getting at. That the "excuse" of the select (not all!) "open only" tapers use in order to slam stealth tapers in hopes to ,again, set up another form of a heirarchy..in this particular case one based on morality.( If its not that, then they use the "gear quality" arguement, not that then they use. The "booltegging" arguement,...if not that they- at least they use to- use the "Ts" system) Fact is, most musicians really don't care, its about selling the recordings and their contracts that are the cause of the issues.

Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2008, 02:00:55 PM »
If its not that, then they use the "gear quality" arguement, not that then they use. The "booltegging" arguement,...if not that they- at least they use to- use the "Ts" system) Fact is, most musicians really don't care, its about selling the recordings and their contracts that are the cause of the issues.
I agree with this 100%.
Tapers do slam each other with the gear quality thing all the time, regardless of open or not.
In the end though it's all subjective.

I for one dig what you stealthers do, even if I don't grab those shows.
I don't think I'd have the patience or determination to get it done.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Belexes

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2008, 02:10:11 PM »
Stealthing is the gateway drug that gets many addicted to taping, which leads to the hard stuff (Sound Devices 7xx's, DPA's, Grace Design, etc).
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2008, 02:15:12 PM »
I really don't see it in "open tapers" and "stealth tapers" terms..I see it as there are people who care about the music and want to get it taped...these people are called "tapers"...whether they run open or stealth it doesn't matter-they are doing it for the same reason.  And then there are those people (open and stealth, *mostly* "open only (elitist)" though) that are in it for the wrong reasons. Those people are the "lifestyle tapers". The ones that slam others, mock others gear, preach morality and do whatever else they can to make themselves feel better by attempting to make others appear to be a lesser person (or lesser taper)

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2008, 02:17:44 PM »
Mr.Belexes..get off of the internet and get to transferring some DATs!! :P

Offline newplanet7

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2008, 02:20:05 PM »
I really don't see it in "open tapers" and "stealth tapers" terms..I see it as there are people who care about the music and want to get it taped...these people are called "tapers"...whether they run open or stealth it doesn't matter-they are doing it for the same reason.  And then there are those people (open and stealth, *mostly* "open only (elitist)" though) that are in it for the wrong reasons. Those people are the "lifestyle tapers". The ones that slam others, mock others gear, preach morality and do whatever else they can to make themselves feel better by attempting to make others appear to be a lesser person (or lesser taper)
Great point.
And I might go out on a limb here by stating that people who actually
do try to make people feel less than about their gear etc....
also do it in other facets of their life.
I do know people that are like that more so out of our hobby.

Stealthing is the gateway drug that gets many addicted to taping, which leads to the hard stuff (Sound Devices 7xx's, DPA's, Grace Design, etc).
:lol:
Well done!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 02:25:02 PM by newplanet7 »
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2008, 02:25:55 PM »
Hi there, i am also a newbie on here and would like to record the gigs that i go too for listening again at home. generally we are standing at gigs and need a stealth recorder which will convert / record directly to mp3 format. I have done some internet searches and like the look of the Edirol R-09HR which you guys seem to give a good review on this thread. If i were to buy one of these would i also need to buy external mics to go with it or would the internal mics give me a good recording from say inside a shirt pocket to be played on an Mp3 player. also Is there anywhere where i can listen to a recording made on one of these with and internal mic on this forum??
I look forward to hearing your expert help which will be of great benifit to me.

Why waste money on good external mics/recorder to record in mp3...??


what is the best format to record in then??? long term i will probably end up listening to the recordings on my ipod so will any other type of recording give me any further benefit

You are better to record in Wav format and listen to it in Wav format. It will take up more space but nothing beats a Wav file. 44.1 16 bit is fine.
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Offline Dede2002

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2008, 03:09:50 PM »
I really don't see it in "open tapers" and "stealth tapers" terms..I see it as there are people who care about the music and want to get it taped...these people are called "tapers"...whether they run open or stealth it doesn't matter-they are doing it for the same reason.  And then there are those people (open and stealth, *mostly* "open only (elitist)" though) that are in it for the wrong reasons. Those people are the "lifestyle tapers". The ones that slam others, mock others gear, preach morality and do whatever else they can to make themselves feel better by attempting to make others appear to be a lesser person (or lesser taper)

And I think you pretty much said all there is to say on this subject.
Very good point. I agree 100%.  ;)
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
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nameloc01

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2008, 03:18:53 PM »
Yeah, I'm done talking about it...I have to go put some bunk-beds together now.

Offline Dede2002

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2008, 04:14:51 PM »
Yeah, I'm done talking about it...I have to go put some bunk-beds together now.

Have fun  ;D
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline wannabetaper

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2008, 05:50:46 PM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Offline Dede2002

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2008, 06:50:45 PM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Friend,

I'm not the most experienced taper around here. But considering all your restrictions (location etc) and your wishes ( enjoy "the moment", have fun, not willing to take care of more than one mic etc), with all due respect, my best taping advice is: do not to tape.
Take care

Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2008, 10:50:43 PM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)
for warranty returns email me at
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Offline Ekib

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2008, 02:48:00 PM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)

Sure , it shouldn't be your choice.
But I have had one mic break down during a concert . After the gig I doubled the left channel ( the one mic that didn't break down ) and the result was surprisingly good. I don't think if you know before hand you won't notice...
But I have to say, I don’t mind it. I do object when I see people sticking microphones up my nose, in the front row. If I see anyone doing that [laughs] I’m going to have security remove them. Because that’s just obnoxious. But I don’t mind if people come and discreetly at the back make a recording of it. And I know that it’s just for their own use, for the superfan.
(Steven Wilson , interview http://blog.musoscribe.com/index.php/2011/01/25/interview-steven-wilson-on-audience-taping/ )

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2008, 02:51:31 PM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)

Sure , it shouldn't be your choice.
But I have had one mic break down during a concert . After the gig I doubled the left channel ( the one mic that didn't break down ) and the result was surprisingly good. I don't think if you know before hand you won't notice...

I would notice right away.. There is a huge difference between a mono recording and a stereo one.. Even if you duplicate the channel.. its not the same to my ears at least.
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nameloc01

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2008, 03:11:02 PM »
I agree with Church. mo-NO.

If you plan on using one mic, get a single point stereo at least.

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2008, 05:44:35 PM »
"I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. >:DI've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man""

I take your comment as , unless you're "open" taping, you're not doing it "right"...am I reading this wrong?

The majority of stealth tapers aren't doing as a big "fuck you" to anyone....they are doing it because it needs to get taped and people like you aren't gonna get it done. Bottom line.

Howcome you took a bit of my line and added some bollocks to it...??

When I said ''I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.'' I meant effort-wise. When I tape I put 110% in and expect good results. If you get lazy you get problems. If you record with cheap gear AND expect to have fun still, you will not get a good recording. That is what I meant.

Don't jump on my back. How would I be elitist when I primarily ''stealth''...??

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Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2008, 11:13:45 PM »
wow...let's see...I've definitely adjusted my mics during recording, turned around and told people to "shut up" or gave them the look of death creating phasing, tucked away mics under my shirt/jacket for periods of time while security passed through, run stealth in open taping environments, and boosted my recordings as much as 12db in post production. I've also made some great tapes.  :P I guess I'm not elitist .  :(  Maybe I should start living up to other taper's expectations...haha...I think I would rather spend time killing myself...

My two cents: Get out there and tape and enjoy the music with the gear you can afford. But if you're not enjoying the music, it's time to stop.

Offline Ekib

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2008, 04:09:58 AM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)

Sure , it shouldn't be your choice.
But I have had one mic break down during a concert . After the gig I doubled the left channel ( the one mic that didn't break down ) and the result was surprisingly good. I don't think if you know before hand you won't notice...

I would notice right away.. There is a huge difference between a mono recording and a stereo one.. Even if you duplicate the channel.. its not the same to my ears at least.


You would notice it if you know it. But I have fooled some people with my recording and no one noticed ! They all loved the fixed recording.
Now offcourse I had no other choice. It was a great concert and listening to one channel that is malfunctioning was no option. And really I listen a lot to that show.

In some ways it even makes sense. Like you make a recording with 2 mic's. It's always possible one mic could point into a wrong direction.

Not always is the " official " way ( using 2 mic's ) the best solution...there's always exceptions to the rule.

But 99 % offcourse it's better to use 2 mic's.
But I have to say, I don’t mind it. I do object when I see people sticking microphones up my nose, in the front row. If I see anyone doing that [laughs] I’m going to have security remove them. Because that’s just obnoxious. But I don’t mind if people come and discreetly at the back make a recording of it. And I know that it’s just for their own use, for the superfan.
(Steven Wilson , interview http://blog.musoscribe.com/index.php/2011/01/25/interview-steven-wilson-on-audience-taping/ )

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2008, 09:33:01 AM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)

Sure , it shouldn't be your choice.
But I have had one mic break down during a concert . After the gig I doubled the left channel ( the one mic that didn't break down ) and the result was surprisingly good. I don't think if you know before hand you won't notice...

I would notice right away.. There is a huge difference between a mono recording and a stereo one.. Even if you duplicate the channel.. its not the same to my ears at least.


You would notice it if you know it. But I have fooled some people with my recording and no one noticed ! They all loved the fixed recording.
Now offcourse I had no other choice. It was a great concert and listening to one channel that is malfunctioning was no option. And really I listen a lot to that show.

In some ways it even makes sense. Like you make a recording with 2 mic's. It's always possible one mic could point into a wrong direction.

Not always is the " official " way ( using 2 mic's ) the best solution...there's always exceptions to the rule.

But 99 % offcourse it's better to use 2 mic's.

I am a sound engineer trust me I would know it if I heard it... The serious lack of any left right content would give it away...in about 10 seconds. Now if you let me play with the recording and use a stereo processor on it like a really high quality reverb I could trick most people.
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Offline Ekib

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2008, 11:34:29 AM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)

Sure , it shouldn't be your choice.
But I have had one mic break down during a concert . After the gig I doubled the left channel ( the one mic that didn't break down ) and the result was surprisingly good. I don't think if you know before hand you won't notice...

I would notice right away.. There is a huge difference between a mono recording and a stereo one.. Even if you duplicate the channel.. its not the same to my ears at least.


You would notice it if you know it. But I have fooled some people with my recording and no one noticed ! They all loved the fixed recording.
Now offcourse I had no other choice. It was a great concert and listening to one channel that is malfunctioning was no option. And really I listen a lot to that show.

In some ways it even makes sense. Like you make a recording with 2 mic's. It's always possible one mic could point into a wrong direction.

Not always is the " official " way ( using 2 mic's ) the best solution...there's always exceptions to the rule.

But 99 % offcourse it's better to use 2 mic's.

I am a sound engineer trust me I would know it if I heard it... The serious lack of any left right content would give it away...in about 10 seconds. Now if you let me play with the recording and use a stereo processor on it like a really high quality reverb I could trick most people.

I'm sure you'd know being a pro. But most people don't , that's the truth.
It doesn't matter to me.

What I'm interested in...why is the left / right so important ? With stealthing they're only inches away from each other. And like I said before , due to the alligator clips , sometimes one mic points into a wrong direction. I rarely have recordings with 2 channels absolutely being perfect. I always have to fix either one with my Behringer equalizer.
Not to mention people talking straight into one mic. I've had it happen the person next to me was so loud it ruined one channel.



But I have to say, I don’t mind it. I do object when I see people sticking microphones up my nose, in the front row. If I see anyone doing that [laughs] I’m going to have security remove them. Because that’s just obnoxious. But I don’t mind if people come and discreetly at the back make a recording of it. And I know that it’s just for their own use, for the superfan.
(Steven Wilson , interview http://blog.musoscribe.com/index.php/2011/01/25/interview-steven-wilson-on-audience-taping/ )

Offline Dede2002

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2008, 02:17:44 PM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)

Sure , it shouldn't be your choice.
But I have had one mic break down during a concert . After the gig I doubled the left channel ( the one mic that didn't break down ) and the result was surprisingly good. I don't think if you know before hand you won't notice...

I would notice right away.. There is a huge difference between a mono recording and a stereo one.. Even if you duplicate the channel.. its not the same to my ears at least.


You would notice it if you know it. But I have fooled some people with my recording and no one noticed ! They all loved the fixed recording.
Now offcourse I had no other choice. It was a great concert and listening to one channel that is malfunctioning was no option. And really I listen a lot to that show.

In some ways it even makes sense. Like you make a recording with 2 mic's. It's always possible one mic could point into a wrong direction.

Not always is the " official " way ( using 2 mic's ) the best solution...there's always exceptions to the rule.

But 99 % offcourse it's better to use 2 mic's.

Ekib,

I would notice. I have to agree with Chris on this one.
Any ( I said any) person with fairly trained ears ( I mean anyone who owns a stereo or iPod ) would tell you that something is not how it is supposed to be.
Of course such person can fail to say something like "hey, it's not true stereo" but he/she can tell that something is not right.
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline Belexes

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2008, 02:31:56 PM »
What I'm interested in...why is the left / right so important ? With stealthing they're only inches away from each other.

Myself or someone else should take a stereo recording and take a sample of it and cut/paste one channel into the other to make it mono and post it.  The difference is night and day.
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Offline Ekib

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2008, 03:53:39 PM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)

Sure , it shouldn't be your choice.
But I have had one mic break down during a concert . After the gig I doubled the left channel ( the one mic that didn't break down ) and the result was surprisingly good. I don't think if you know before hand you won't notice...

I would notice right away.. There is a huge difference between a mono recording and a stereo one.. Even if you duplicate the channel.. its not the same to my ears at least.


You would notice it if you know it. But I have fooled some people with my recording and no one noticed ! They all loved the fixed recording.
Now offcourse I had no other choice. It was a great concert and listening to one channel that is malfunctioning was no option. And really I listen a lot to that show.

In some ways it even makes sense. Like you make a recording with 2 mic's. It's always possible one mic could point into a wrong direction.

Not always is the " official " way ( using 2 mic's ) the best solution...there's always exceptions to the rule.

But 99 % offcourse it's better to use 2 mic's.

Ekib,

I would notice. I have to agree with Chris on this one.
Any ( I said any) person with fairly trained ears ( I mean anyone who owns a stereo or iPod ) would tell you that something is not how it is supposed to be.
Of course such person can fail to say something like "hey, it's not true stereo" but he/she can tell that something is not right.


This is getting an interesting discussion !
I think it is all within the mind , so to speak.

The difference I'm talking about is the recording was originally stereo , except I only use 1 channel which I double.

Now I'd like to know WHY is there a difference ? Aren't the 2 mic's supposed to pick up the same thing ?
I ask this because it interests me.
Recording true stereo is really what happens in the studio or soundboard when you have different instruments mixed to different sides. Like more drums in the right , or the rhythms in the other. Like for example the first VAN HALEN record.
What is really stereo about using 2 mic's ? And yes , before anyone questions...I use 2 mic's. I only mixed mono because I had no choice.
But I have to say, I don’t mind it. I do object when I see people sticking microphones up my nose, in the front row. If I see anyone doing that [laughs] I’m going to have security remove them. Because that’s just obnoxious. But I don’t mind if people come and discreetly at the back make a recording of it. And I know that it’s just for their own use, for the superfan.
(Steven Wilson , interview http://blog.musoscribe.com/index.php/2011/01/25/interview-steven-wilson-on-audience-taping/ )

Offline Belexes

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2008, 04:10:46 PM »
Now I'd like to know WHY is there a difference ? Aren't the 2 mic's supposed to pick up the same thing ?
I ask this because it interests me.

We hear in stereo with two ears and depending on the direction of the sound sources, each ear picks up something distinct.  Would you have a stereo receiver at home with one speaker?   :o

Anyway, stereo mics like your ears pick up distinct information.  It isn't really the same. 
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2008, 04:28:53 PM »
Wow, I haven't checked the forum for a few days and I see more than 70 messages... First thanks for the replies. I think Freelunch missed the point. It's not that I don't want to do any research. On the contrary I have spent hours reading forums, etc. As for my not being willing to bother, it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic. In fact I was even thinking about recording in mono so that I have only one mic to position and to pay attention to. One question: if you have a microtrack and a pair of mics plugged, can you record mono and just use one of them? And does the file take only half the size of a stereo one then? I know, I could a get a single mono mic but I might want to record in stereo another time.

Thanks again guys.

 

Please dont do mono. That's all I will say  ;)

Sure , it shouldn't be your choice.
But I have had one mic break down during a concert . After the gig I doubled the left channel ( the one mic that didn't break down ) and the result was surprisingly good. I don't think if you know before hand you won't notice...

I would notice right away.. There is a huge difference between a mono recording and a stereo one.. Even if you duplicate the channel.. its not the same to my ears at least.


You would notice it if you know it. But I have fooled some people with my recording and no one noticed ! They all loved the fixed recording.
Now offcourse I had no other choice. It was a great concert and listening to one channel that is malfunctioning was no option. And really I listen a lot to that show.

In some ways it even makes sense. Like you make a recording with 2 mic's. It's always possible one mic could point into a wrong direction.

Not always is the " official " way ( using 2 mic's ) the best solution...there's always exceptions to the rule.

But 99 % offcourse it's better to use 2 mic's.

Ekib,

I would notice. I have to agree with Chris on this one.
Any ( I said any) person with fairly trained ears ( I mean anyone who owns a stereo or iPod ) would tell you that something is not how it is supposed to be.
Of course such person can fail to say something like "hey, it's not true stereo" but he/she can tell that something is not right.


This is getting an interesting discussion !
I think it is all within the mind , so to speak.

The difference I'm talking about is the recording was originally stereo , except I only use 1 channel which I double.

Now I'd like to know WHY is there a difference ? Aren't the 2 mic's supposed to pick up the same thing ?
I ask this because it interests me.
Recording true stereo is really what happens in the studio or soundboard when you have different instruments mixed to different sides. Like more drums in the right , or the rhythms in the other. Like for example the first VAN HALEN record.
What is really stereo about using 2 mic's ? And yes , before anyone questions...I use 2 mic's. I only mixed mono because I had no choice.


Two mics even if they are only inches apart pick up different perspectives and arrival times of the sound in the room... Now we do not hear in mono we hear everything in a very VERY advanced stereo.. The difference in arrival times between the two mics might be as little as a few ms.... in time but our brains can tell the difference.. The best way to illustrate this is to try your listening tests with good headphones.. The sound difference is night and day...

Chris
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 09:44:27 PM by Church-Audio »
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2008, 05:22:55 PM »
Yo Simon,
Hey man, I don't know wtf happened, on my handset the quotes are all f'ed up and I read what I cut as one statement from someone else. Not even talking to you. You're a good taper :P

Ps.whenever I see that word "bullocks" I have to laugh my ass off...still haven't figured out exactly what it means, but its funny none-the-less.
Later.
-J

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2008, 05:52:50 PM »
Yo Simon,
Hey man, I don't know wtf happened, on my handset the quotes are all f'ed up and I read what I cut as one statement from someone else. Not even talking to you. You're a good taper :P

Ps.whenever I see that word "bullocks" I have to laugh my ass off...still haven't figured out exactly what it means, but its funny none-the-less.
Later.
-J

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2008, 02:21:09 AM »
"I have one motto for taping, either do it properly or not at all.That's precisely why I don't mess around with "stealth" recording. I've recorded a few shows in "stealth", so I can understand and respect the desire to do it. I mean; it's a little "f--k you to The Man""

I take your comment as , unless you're "open" taping, you're not doing it "right"...am I reading this wrong?

The majority of stealth tapers aren't doing as a big "fuck you" to anyone....they are doing it because it needs to get taped and people like you aren't gonna get it done. Bottom line.

Wow. You're so completely wrong that I'm not sure where to begin correcting your assumptions. Your apparent crusade to pigeonhole me as one of your "elitist open-only lifestyle tapers" is more than slightly amusing. I hope you had fun. But seem to have jumped to a lot of conclusions about my attitudes and what I do (even before you admitted that you didn't "get" what I wrote) and you made yourself look like a semi-literate boor with anger control issues and a shitty phone.

What I meant is that I (personally) don't "stealth tape" anymore. Later in that post, I explained why I don't. And I never said that I hadn't heard great-sounding "stealth" tapes; I just said that most of them I've heard sound like shit (including some of my own). It's like you just picked some words out of what I wrote, inferred an inaccurate meaning, and went off on some sanctimonious tirade about your "lifestyle taper" bogeyman. Thanks for the laugh!

P.S. - My congratulations on being appointed the mouthpiece for The Majority of Stealth Tapers! You're just looking for something to vilify, aren't you! It doesn't matter to you if you understand the meaning or not! Allow me to elaborate on what I wrote to clarify the meaning for you: recording without the OK of the venue and/or the artist is like saying, "Fuck you jerks, this shit needs to get taped and I'm doing it whether you let me or not." And that's totally cool with me; I've not only done it, I'd still do it if I could.

You're not going to find any moralistic bullshit from me regarding "Open vs. Stealth". I truly don't care what anyone tapes or how they do it as long as it sounds good. I do agree that the primary "mission" (of any taper) is to "get the tape", but if sound quality didn't matter Mr. Church wouldn't sell microphones, Mr. Oade and Mr. Johnson wouldn't modify recorders, and you'd record every show you "stealth" with a monophonic micro-cassette recorder shoved up your ass. I'm fairly certain that no one actually does that (but the world's a big place and stranger things have happened). Whatever. It's been fun.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2008, 06:24:26 AM »
Actually, thank you for the laugh. I clearly stated I missread that as my phone jumbled several quotes together. So, apparently, something I said "elsewhere" put a bug up your ass, but you dont say anything then, you wait til' I misread something (else) to attack,..lol. Maybe, next time when you have a beef with some topic you should grow some nuts and speak up  that inital instant. Really, that's weak. I'm hardly trying to vilify anyone, nor am I drawing "lines" between stealth tapers and open tapers, as I have stated, as apparently you didn't understand. Dude, I'm not the only one with the opinion" of "lifestyle" tapers, seriously...its a rather commonly known concept and basically has turned into a joke in other forums. Look around. So, maybe if you wanna try to win some arguement/debate with me, do it when I didn't missread something, as that's the only time its gonna legitimately count, not that you're gonna win, but feel free to try.
Back to topic now.

Offline George

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2008, 11:47:39 AM »
Yikes, what a mess of a thread. 

I started taping back in 2003 just to capture my the experience of attending a concert and even more importantly, to see how the recording came out...kinda like a experiment out of curiousity's sake since I've always been interested in the recreation of sound.  I generally stealth because frankly, I hate jam bands.  I'll admit I get a kick out of stealthing, but the most exciting part (besides being at the show) is to hear the audio I captured on my gear.  I've had many moments of having a big grin on my face upon listening back to my recordings.  I think this is the essence of stealth taping.

Also, I think its safe to say the large majority of stealth tapers are not bootleggers.  The bootleggers are people who sit on the sidelines downloading shows from places like dime and then burning them, making some cheap artwork and selling them on ebay. 
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2008, 11:47:49 AM »
My "mouthpiece" is doing a great job..carry on.

Oh, and it's "bollocks" not "bullocks". The difference is 800lbs of hot steamy flesh, and, er..
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Offline jacobmyers

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2008, 03:25:37 PM »
@ nameloc
About this "speak up that initial instant" drivel from you; that's just sad. I had things to do out in the "world". So when I do "check in" here at TS, I find some vitriol from you that's clearly directed at me personally. So I put facts where your assumptions were and threw in some sarcasm for good measure. And your reply is hilarious. Thanks again for the laughs.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2008, 03:52:06 PM »
Dude,seriously..
I stated I missread those quotes..thus anything I stated made on those missreads should be disregarded. I thought that was a given. SORRY!
And by you mentioning the "lifestyle taper" thing, apparently this bothers you..either you are one of those "elitist" misguided people who cause drama here, are obsessed with the "T's" thing, and berade and belittle others based on what music they listen to, their gear or the method in which they tape (stealth/open).....OR basically you are not one of those people.. You are..or you are not. And if you are not then my comments have absolutely no reason to bother you. It is a very well known fact of the constant drama-i guess you could call it- here..its a constant topic of discussion elsewhere, and that's why A LOT of tapers don't even come here..I can probably name 15 that I know personally. And its the one thing from keeping this site from becoming (even) better than it already is. Notice the constant drama and negativity doesn't ever go on anywhere else (at least on the scale it does here) ??  The reason, is because, again of the small number of closet "elitists" here. Simple as that. And if you actually spend just a few minutes reading any of my posts, it would be clear they are *ONLY* directed at the people that bring this place down from where,at least I, feel it could/should be.
Now, you may be (one of those "elitists", you may not be..I dunno.
Point is, when you first read that  (whenever it was) if you had a problem with it, you should have said something. Not waiting for me to make a statement that was,as I stated based on wrong info...somehow trying to incorporate the two into the same issue. I mean..really.-c'mon.
I still haven't went back and looked at the quotes as they actually are, as my handset is not displaying the (quotes) pages correctly..but just Simon pointing it out, was enough to illustrate my mistake. Lighten up...and you talk about me having anger issues? You obviously have never met me.
Ugh.so..not sure what else to tell you.
Now, that this thread went to hell..maybe we could possibly push it back on track. maybe.

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2008, 04:08:18 PM »
Hello all,
I would like to record a concert that I will be attending in a couple of weeks, sitting in the first row. I have zero experience and would like to work with a very simple setup... I want to enjoy the concert and not to have to be paranoid about being caught and don't want to bother with fake earplugs mics, glass clipped mics, or stuff like that. I thought about simply putting a zoom H2 in the front pocket of my shirt but after checking the dimensions it looks like it is a little too big and it wouldn't be discreet enough (remember I will be on the first row!). Then I thought, why not put it in the slightly larger front pocket of a business suit. Yet it will still be obvious that I have something in that pocket. I also checked the dimensions of the Tascam recorder, which is a little taller but also thinner. But I think the metal mics of the Tascam will be particularly obvious, especially for someone looking from above (in particular from the stage). Another possibility would be to wear one of those very thin silk scarves one sometimes wear with suits to hide the pocket. Do you think that makes sense or does it sound like the best recipe for getting something absolutely inaudible? Also what about having the recorder inside a (non closed) bag, on my laps?
Any suggestion is welcome as long as the budget remains reasonable and it's simple enough...
Thanks a lot in advance for your kind help!

As somebody who owns an H2 and for grins tried recording with it in my shirt pocket I can say A: it will fit a shirt pocket and B: you probably wont be happy with the results. You'll get something. It wont be great. It may be muffled, it will have rustling noises if you move much, it will pickup anyone talking around you.
Here's an MP3 of an H2 just sitting on a rail (not in my pocket) at an Obama election night rally. As you can hear, its better than nothing but the sound isn't great (speakers blocked by bodies) and you hear people around me talking:
http://yodaslai.ipower.com/bradfordvilleblues/media/ObamaRally-2008-11-04/Set1-mp3/JohnnieMarshall-ObamaRally-2008-11-04--3.mp3
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Offline Dede2002

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2008, 04:10:37 PM »
My "mouthpiece" is doing a great job..carry on.



Agreed 100%  ;D
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #100 on: November 18, 2008, 08:06:07 PM »
im sure its been said b4, but church audio makes some great stuff and it is very simple to use like beginingers like myself.
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Offline 69mako

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #101 on: November 19, 2008, 03:50:12 AM »
I say go for it.  Something is better than nothing.  Everyone has to start out somewhere.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #102 on: November 19, 2008, 11:21:45 PM »
I say go for it.  Something is better than nothing.  Everyone has to start out somewhere.
Yep, even this thread has to get good sometime!!  8)

I have the H2, and have never made a "shirt pocket" recording with the internal mics, but have been perfectly happy with the internal mics when I put the thing on a stand, or set it somewhere that sounds decent. It may overload from intense sound pressure and the built-in mics are certainly not as good as a nice set of Neumanns (personal experience!) but it's still well worth going out and seeing what happens. I think I recall from the start of this wild excuse for a thread, that the topic was something like "should I even try?"

YES! Do go for it. At the worst, you'll learn a few things to do wrong, and maybe still be able to re-create a setlist from the show and some usable stage banter. At best you will come home with "a thing of beauty and a joy forever" - actually you will probably fall somewhere in between, as I do most nights with my 1000+ show experience!! Really, now, who here made a kickass recording their first time out. I know I read that somebody did it, but I would bet that most people managed to botch more than a few before getting a really good "keeper".

MONO? I have made good mono recordings in the past month! I ran my neumanns in a situation where the best move was to put in earplugs and stand next to a speaker. No real reason to try to make that "stereo" in my opinion. ..  Sure, I could have used the second channel, the one with all the crowd response, but I did some listening tests, and I was most pleased with the direct-sounding "speaker mic" doubled into mono, and screw the crowd and room response. I didn't make the rookie mistake of deleting the other channel, but I dumped the show down to CD without it! Yep. Mono. Perfectly happy with it too. Of course, the next time I saw the same performer at the same venue, I stood near the speaker and turned the mics to try to face them both towards the area of maximum sound pressure. Did not succeed 100%, but it was at least worth boosting the low channel and mixing it down to stereo. Thousands of shows in and I'm still learning a little something almost every gig.

Great debate here, and I don't miss the +t -t BS whatsoever. Thanks to all who have posted. Even if it seems like an argument here, it's only due to strong opinions and recordists who actually give a sh!t. My final thought for now is GO! RECORD IT! You will probably learn something, and you might even make a decent recording, and even if you become too picky to enjoy it, someone who didn't think to bring a deck will be damn glad to take ANYTHING you might wind up with!!!

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Offline owainturner

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2011, 10:50:44 AM »
I know this is an old thread, but for those that still wonder about this question...

I've recorded a few concerts with the H2 in my top pocket... they come out great for simple singer-songwriter shows...

example;

http://soundcloud.com/thedogfather/brian-houston-woman-out-of-you

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2aQ54dpYoQ

however, not so good for louder rock shows...


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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2011, 10:36:08 PM »
I missed this thread the first time around.  Now I want to know what happened with the OP?

I'm glad I didn't read this before my first attempts at taping or I would have been discouraged.  I've stealthed several times with an H2/ext mics and was glad every single time. 




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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2011, 09:48:08 AM »
I missed this thread the first time around.  Now I want to know what happened with the OP?

I'm guessing his chute didn't open.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #106 on: April 19, 2011, 10:39:54 AM »
î s†3嬆h!

I just had to say it, because its so titillating.
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #107 on: April 19, 2011, 10:52:08 AM »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline bonghitwillie

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2011, 08:41:22 PM »
give the ticket next to you to someone that knows how to stealth.  best way is with 2 lav mics or better into the recorder.  the front row is great if there are front fill speakers and you are close to them.  i don't care what anyone says about the sweet spot, if you can be close to a front fill and also get the instruments from the stage, you will make the best possible recording.  if you are rich, you should buy a schoeps or gefell or dpa mic set up with a recorder and buy an extra ticket next to you.  give the rig and the extra ticket to an experienced stealther.   if you live in my area, i would do this.  or you could fly me in and provide room and board with a per diem.

Offline owainturner

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #109 on: April 23, 2011, 02:47:26 PM »
give the ticket next to you to someone that knows how to stealth.  best way is with 2 lav mics or better into the recorder.  the front row is great if there are front fill speakers and you are close to them.  i don't care what anyone says about the sweet spot, if you can be close to a front fill and also get the instruments from the stage, you will make the best possible recording.  if you are rich, you should buy a schoeps or gefell or dpa mic set up with a recorder and buy an extra ticket next to you.  give the rig and the extra ticket to an experienced stealther.   if you live in my area, i would do this.  or you could fly me in and provide room and board with a per diem.

I agree with this to an extent, but the sweet spot gives the best possible recording - that is the best sound in the venue (at the sweet spot) gives the best recording, it really is simple. In small venues this is certainly not the front row as even with fill speakers certain instruments (for example drums) will be far too prominent in a recording, If its a participially loud show so will the on-stage amps to recorded as well as, giving you drowned out vocals... This is from my very limited experience but I find it to be the case, at least in smaller venues.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #110 on: April 23, 2011, 09:40:49 PM »
The sweet spot is simply the location where it sounds best.  You won't know where that is until you go to that place and listen. Could be the front row, could be 5 rows back to the side, could be row 12 center...  expecting it to always be in a similar location, venue to venue and act to act, closes the door to the possibility of making some outstanding recordings in what may be to you an atypical situation.  If it's atypical or not simply depends on what your usual recording experience is like.  For me, the last 3 things I recorded sounded far better in the front row than anywhere else.  Two of those were amplified, one used the FOH system, one was fully acoustic.  One was in a small but high ceiling shoe-box shaped gallery, one was a medium sized 1940's deco theater and one was a smallish club.  None of them had stage fills, but as Mr. Willie notes, those things may well be the feather in your cap.

Keep your ears open and aim to put yourself in the empirical sweetspot instead of the theoretical one, even if its the next time you show up, dependent on all the other important variables like girls, wives, vocals, pianos, fill speakers, soloists and drums.. drums are especially important, pianos are hard, girls can go either way.
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Offline fandelive

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #111 on: April 25, 2011, 04:25:42 AM »
it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic.


First post in this thread (after reading it in it's entirely) and that's what I'd suggest for you :

Get those kind of in-ear omnidirectional capsules :
* http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2
* http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/MS-TFB-2

I know you said you didn't want to use in-ear mics, but those will serve two of your main goals :
1. they will avoid any "getting caught while stealthing" issues, because they look like ear-protection plugs.
2. their omnidirectional pickups will allow you to move your head as you want without causing any phasing issue.
+ it's a pair; always better sounding than a mono capture.

You'll also need to power those mics with a battery-box, and I'd suggest the use of a bass roll-off filter with omnis. (maybe the internal low-cut filter of the Edirol R09-HR can do the job as well, but I can't answer this question myself).
Doing this way, you'll have to plug your battery box + mics in the "line-in" entry, so the recorder will be able to handle a hotter signal.

Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4, 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
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Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline fatstratcat

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2011, 06:03:39 PM »
What I don't understand is, if this guy wants to buy an inexpensive recorder and make at best a so-so recording for his own enjoyment, then why the fuck do some of you get upset about it?  His money, his time, his risk.  If you don't have constructive advice for him, like he requested, then don't post shit ripping him.

I don't think anyone is upset...  But the dude is fun to laugh at.

He deserves to be ripped because he made it very clear that he isn't interested in making any effort.  He doesn't want to "bother".  That includes, apparently, researching the many times this question has been asked in the past.  There are people who come here and are genuinely interested in making the effort to learn.  That's Not this dude.

He doesn't even want to do any practice shows.  That's just moronic.

His attitude, combined with his zero experience, suggests there is a chance he'll get caught and that is bad for everyone.

Why is it that if he gets caught it will be bad for everyone do you think they will torture him into letting them know about this place? Do you really think the security guards join T.S so they can find out where the stealth gear is hidden? You must think they have alot of spare time or care enough about there $12 per hour job..

This guy wanted some advice we gave it to him lets not kick the shit out of someone for starting out in this hobby and not knowing anything. Lets try and remember what stupid questions we asked when we started out. Maybe we can turn him into a productive taper who will not sell his recordings that to me seems more logical then beating up on him that seems to me to be more important in preventing problems for other tapers then just telling him how stupid he is... This elitist attitude is very sad this place is about helping the young guys out not laughing at them for not knowing as much as we do....
There are no stupid questions - just stupid people who don't ask questions. The first show I ever taped was with a crappy little Aiwa deck with an external stereo mic. The show was Roy Buchanan - my favorite blues guitarist - and I was determined to pull it off. I asked a taper friend of mine a few things - he was helpful, but doubted it would sound very good. I thought I ended up with a decent recording considering the acoustics and drunks in the place, but anyway, less than three months later he was dead. To me it's not always the quality of the recording, but the quality of the notes that are played. After that, like Chris said, I was bitten by the upgrade bug - albeit 20years later.
Mics: AT933 w/ AT853 caps (cards, subcards, omnis) / Primo EM172 omnis (4.7k mod)
Bars: AT933 ORTF μBar, AT853 ORTF Active-style bar, fatstratcat DIN bar, 32" omni bar
Pre: Church Audio 3-Wire Ugly II / Church Audio Ugly Battery Box
Recorders: Sony PCM-M10 / Edirol R-09

Offline MSTaper

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2011, 08:19:52 PM »
One interpretation of FL's comments...

Taping, particularly stealth, requires commitment and compromises.  If one wants to get a good recording, one can't:  <a> behave the same way one normally would at a concert, <b> expect to do so perfectly without practice, <c> ignore appropriate placement of the mics to achieve the desired results, and <d> expect the desired results (whatever they are) without allocating an appropriate budget.

FWIW, the front row generally doesn't provide very good sound, as someone else noted already.  Answer a few questions to help yourself decide whether it's worth it:

  • What's your budget?
  • With what quality of result would you be happy?  Maybe download a few stealth recordings, maybe made with just the recorder's internal mics, and others with recorder + external head-worn mics, to determine what quality you find acceptable.
  • Are you willing to remain quiet, in a fixed position, for the duration of the concert?
  • What's your willingness to accept risk, for example getting denied enetry or booted out of the venue if caught?

I had not read this post before, but it-goes-to-11's post was hilarious, but true. So is this one.
I don't do low-pro very often, but got a lot of practice at the non-taping Hangout Festival and Brian is exactly right. I mounted my Church Audio mics in my hat and had my R-09 in my shorts pocket. I really never worried about security, because there wasn't much, but I was careful.
I basically had to be the human mic stand for an hour, hour and 15 minutes for the six bands I taped. I could not dance to Primus, The Black Keys, DBT, Umphrey's McGee, The Flaming Lips or Portugal. The Man. It's difficult to dance in the sand without moving your head significantly! ;) I did not talk to my kid or my fellow taper and had to ignore anyone around me. I did oblige and give a guy a sip of beer during Black Keys to keep him quiet. Really can't hear the exchange unless you listen closely. I could not sit down or turn my head.
What it got me was six very nice low-pro recordings from a "non-taping" festival that I've shared. Myself and two others sacrificed during those shows and others and ended up taping 16 different bands at this fest. And yeah, I'd do it again!  >:D

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Offline MSTaper

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2011, 08:31:27 PM »
The whole point of taping, imo, is the music, not how perfect you can make your tape sound or how much gear you have. For example, look at when Dylan played with the White Stripes a few years ago. A stealth tape was the only thing that was made of that show, but I don't see anyone complaining.

edit-or, all the Hendrix/Zeppelin/JGB shows where taping wasn't allowed. I feel like this debate has been done to death a million times already, though.

Until a couple weeks ago, I had one of two known low-pro recordings of The White Stripes last show in Southhaven, Miss. It was taped with an R-09 in my shirt pocket from the stands. Had to use internal mics because my CA-11 had not arrived. I wanted to tape and I did. I was one of those, eh, it's OK, recordings, but except for another taper's recording, it's all we had. I'm glad the band released it.

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Offline ben_r_

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2011, 12:56:06 AM »
One interpretation of FL's comments...

Taping, particularly stealth, requires commitment and compromises.  If one wants to get a good recording, one can't:  <a> behave the same way one normally would at a concert, <b> expect to do so perfectly without practice, <c> ignore appropriate placement of the mics to achieve the desired results, and <d> expect the desired results (whatever they are) without allocating an appropriate budget.

FWIW, the front row generally doesn't provide very good sound, as someone else noted already.  Answer a few questions to help yourself decide whether it's worth it:

  • What's your budget?
  • With what quality of result would you be happy?  Maybe download a few stealth recordings, maybe made with just the recorder's internal mics, and others with recorder + external head-worn mics, to determine what quality you find acceptable.
  • Are you willing to remain quiet, in a fixed position, for the duration of the concert?
  • What's your willingness to accept risk, for example getting denied enetry or booted out of the venue if caught?

I had not read this post before, but it-goes-to-11's post was hilarious, but true. So is this one.
I don't do low-pro very often, but got a lot of practice at the non-taping Hangout Festival and Brian is exactly right. I mounted my Church Audio mics in my hat and had my R-09 in my shorts pocket. I really never worried about security, because there wasn't much, but I was careful.
I basically had to be the human mic stand for an hour, hour and 15 minutes for the six bands I taped. I could not dance to Primus, The Black Keys, DBT, Umphrey's McGee, The Flaming Lips or Portugal. The Man. It's difficult to dance in the sand without moving your head significantly! ;) I did not talk to my kid or my fellow taper and had to ignore anyone around me. I did oblige and give a guy a sip of beer during Black Keys to keep him quiet. Really can't hear the exchange unless you listen closely. I could not sit down or turn my head.
What it got me was six very nice low-pro recordings from a "non-taping" festival that I've shared. Myself and two others sacrificed during those shows and others and ended up taping 16 different bands at this fest. And yeah, I'd do it again!  >:D

MSTaper
Ha, yea see thats kinda what I was considering doing, Sony PCM-M10 in pocket, and maybe a Countryman omni lav mic run up say the back of my neck into a beanie and the sticking out just a tad through a hole in the front of the beanie. But yea, no moving, no turning, ignoring everyone, not going crazy in the front row, human mic stand.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2011, 11:45:43 AM »
I've had pretty good luck with a Zoom H2 in my top pocket but I much prefer open taping.
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline genesisoh

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2011, 02:55:52 PM »
I've had pretty good luck with a Zoom H2 in my top pocket but I much prefer open taping.


All things considered, the H2 does an adequate job recording live performances using the internal mics and does a surprisingly good job in one's shirt pocket.  Yes yes, I know it is not as good as most external mics, but it is certainly a good option for the beginner/novice.  Your placement in the crowd is key and the acoustics of the venue make an awful lot of difference.  Also, post production can be used to enhance the recordings quite nicely. 

The H2 was my starter "rig" and I have moved on to preamps, mics, BBs, etc with much nicer results.  I did get some very good captures of shows from the H2 just in my shirt pocket.  I still use it as a backup recorder.  If I were starting out today I would buy the DR-2D instead and use the internals until I got enough experience and $$$ to buy mics etc. 

We all gotta start with something and I think the H2 is a perfectly acceptable staring point (I'm not saying it is the optimal starting point however) Just my 2 cents ....
Mics: CA-14 cards and omnis
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Recorder: TASCAM DR-2D
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2011, 03:14:43 PM »
I've had pretty good luck with a Zoom H2 in my top pocket but I much prefer open taping.


All things considered, the H2 does an adequate job recording live performances using the internal mics and does a surprisingly good job in one's shirt pocket.  Yes yes, I know it is not as good as most external mics, but it is certainly a good option for the beginner/novice.  Your placement in the crowd is key and the acoustics of the venue make an awful lot of difference.  Also, post production can be used to enhance the recordings quite nicely. 

The H2 was my starter "rig" and I have moved on to preamps, mics, BBs, etc with much nicer results.  I did get some very good captures of shows from the H2 just in my shirt pocket.  I still use it as a backup recorder.  If I were starting out today I would buy the DR-2D instead and use the internals until I got enough experience and $$$ to buy mics etc. 

We all gotta start with something and I think the H2 is a perfectly acceptable staring point (I'm not saying it is the optimal starting point however) Just my 2 cents ....

Although I have moved on to better gear I still have my H2. After being on the market for almost 4 years I am sure there are better units to start out with but then the price on the H2 has dropped quite a bit. I paid $200 for mine and they can be had now for about $140. I still say it is a better unit than its detractors claim all except for the external mic input which sucks by all accounts.

One thing about the shirt pocket trick is that you still need a clear shot to the sound source or it will sound muffled.  It works great in tiered seating.
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Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #119 on: July 14, 2011, 03:20:39 PM »
I've had pretty good luck with a Zoom H2 in my top pocket but I much prefer open taping.


My buddy records his band with a Zoom H2, and I have to say they sound decent. Externals would be 1000% better of course.
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2011, 04:06:56 PM »
You can now order a modified H2 from India with an ambisonic mic sticking out the top of it.  The mic is called the Brama mic and is sold alone, or as a complete kit which includes the modified H2 with an Amphenol connector on top to attach the mic directly or extension cable. http://www.oomagamma.com/brahma_kit/brahma_kit.html

Along the lines of Chris Chuch's R-09 mod with his mics sticking out the top replacing the internals in some ways, but far more involved and the ambisonic mic is detachable.  I haven't heard samples.. except for some underwater! ambisonic research clips from researchers in Italy using a special hydrophone version.

Wonder if they'll make a DR2d mod?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #121 on: July 15, 2011, 02:18:48 PM »
Interesting. But for $899 it'll be way on my back burner.
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Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
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PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #122 on: July 15, 2011, 03:12:20 PM »
Yeah, just threw that out there since it's interesting.  I doubt its very suitable for music recording, yet you must admit that an all-in-one ambisonic mic/recorder that fits in your hand is a pretty cool concept.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #123 on: July 15, 2011, 03:22:37 PM »
Interesting, yes. Did you see their comments about the tetrasonic mic like you have?
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2011, 05:43:22 PM »
No, I'll have to check that out.  On the same site?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2011, 05:46:04 PM »
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2011, 06:23:46 PM »
They're right, the windscreen & shock mount can use improvement. 

The furry I sewed up to fit over the foam screen worked pretty well for Springfest.  I was thinking of DIY'ing something like their ball screen out of a couple stainless kitchen strainers, but since the furry cover worked OK I think I'll leave it at that for now.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #127 on: July 20, 2011, 01:07:23 PM »
Having that air space really seems to help cut the wind noise. I was surprised who well the foam windscreens on my ADK-tl's worked and I think its because of the airspace between the cap and the wire mesh of the mic body. At Wanee my old SP C4's would have been roaring and the tl's picked up no wind noise at all that I can hear.
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
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PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
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Online love2tape

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #128 on: May 19, 2018, 02:02:55 AM »
Lol, hi, I know this is a resurrection, but I'm posting because this thread is still easily found on google when searching for first-time/new-to-taping terms

I'd just like to add, if anyone's in the same boat as the OP, please do not be discouraged. It is absolutely possible to get a serviceable recording having zero experience and wanting to get up front. Especially if you research diligently.

I recorded this with a zoom h4n pro in my shirt pocket, front and center: https://archive.org/details/tmg2017-11-07/17_jeffDavisCountryBlues.flac

does it sound as good as what more seasoned tapers / people with better gear / people who try to get into optimal position capture? absolutely not. but it's perfectly serviceable as a personal recording, or for people who- like other posters said, are in it for the music above all else. the band in question has a hardcore following, and more tapes are always better than less.

just wanted to say that it's easier than ever to stealth tape with a simple setup if you're hoping to get a personal recording, and anyone who's interested should definitely just try it out no matter where ya plan on standing and go from there :)

(also, I'd like to thank this board for being such an excellent resource, I have some ca-14s on the way that I purchased after reading here a bunch and am excited to capture some stuff that's a step above what I've got with my h4n so far)

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #129 on: May 19, 2018, 01:33:00 PM »
Lol, hi, I know this is a resurrection, but I'm posting because this thread is still easily found on google when searching for first-time/new-to-taping terms

I'd just like to add, if anyone's in the same boat as the OP, please do not be discouraged. It is absolutely possible to get a serviceable recording having zero experience and wanting to get up front. Especially if you research diligently.

I recorded this with a zoom h4n pro in my shirt pocket, front and center: https://archive.org/details/tmg2017-11-07/17_jeffDavisCountryBlues.flac

does it sound as good as what more seasoned tapers / people with better gear / people who try to get into optimal position capture? absolutely not. but it's perfectly serviceable as a personal recording, or for people who- like other posters said, are in it for the music above all else. the band in question has a hardcore following, and more tapes are always better than less.

just wanted to say that it's easier than ever to stealth tape with a simple setup if you're hoping to get a personal recording, and anyone who's interested should definitely just try it out no matter where ya plan on standing and go from there :)

(also, I'd like to thank this board for being such an excellent resource, I have some ca-14s on the way that I purchased after reading here a bunch and am excited to capture some stuff that's a step above what I've got with my h4n so far)

As the "Location, Location, Location" thread notes, the most important part of any recording is (wait for it) location. Once you have that, everything else is important but secondary. (Gutbucket, what's your hierarchy of recording quality again? Location > mic quality > mic setup > something?)

That said, enjoy your CA-14 mics, which are going to be a big step up from the Zoom internals, especially in situations where you can't be front and center.

Online Gutbucket

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #130 on: May 21, 2018, 09:08:58 AM »
Um, lets see..

How about this hierarchy of importance-
Musical piece > performers > venue > recording location > how you use the recording gear > what recording gear you use

Venue includes the room, the sound reinforcement system, sound guy, and all that.  The first 3 most important things we have no control over.  Recording location is the most important of the things we do.  What gear we use is less important than how we use it.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline fanofjam

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #131 on: May 21, 2018, 01:36:07 PM »
What gear we use is less important than how we use it.

'Bullshit' said every woman since Eve to other women (not within earshot of a man).



« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 01:39:15 PM by fanofjam »

Online Gutbucket

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #132 on: May 21, 2018, 02:12:44 PM »
What gear we use is less important than how we use it.

'Bullshit' said every woman since Eve to other women (not within earshot of a man).

That's a popular notion, but I don't buy it.  With regards to that particular sexual meme- regardless of gender, it takes little more than an honest reference to one's own experiences- ask yourself if you'd honestly prefer a deadfish interaction with a well-endowed drop-dead-gorgeous partner to an deeply interactive connection with a skilled lover of average appearance.

The best mics in the world won't pull a good recording if placed under the seat facing the ground.  I'll take decent gear used properly every time.  Of course the best answer is both, good equipment AND the skillful application of it.  These are two aspects we have some control over after all.  Reality lies somewhere between extremes, within the constraints of skill and budget, yet knowledge remains the more fundamental aspect of the two - after all it was the taste that fruit which got Eve and her lover booted from the love-shack to begin with.

If you don't know how to do it, a big mic ain't gonna figure that for you.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 02:14:39 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline daspyknows

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #133 on: May 21, 2018, 06:25:28 PM »
What gear we use is less important than how we use it.

'Bullshit' said every woman since Eve to other women (not within earshot of a man).

+1   :cheers: 

Taken to extreme examples maybe its true.  A phone recording in the venue will sound better than a high end rig outside the venue but with reasonable levels of competency and location the rig with the better gear will sound better than the rig with the subpar gear.   
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 06:28:35 PM by daspyknows »

Offline fanofjam

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #134 on: May 22, 2018, 08:07:11 AM »
What gear we use is less important than how we use it.

'Bullshit' said every woman since Eve to other women (not within earshot of a man).

That's a popular notion, but I don't buy it. 



 after all it was the taste that fruit which got Eve and her lover booted from the love-shack to begin with.

If you don't know how to do it, a big mic ain't gonna figure that for you.

Objective 'cultural art film' research reveals that small men in low places aren't in high demand, suggesting that women like large wangs.  Less research exists to support my theory that there's an inverse correlation between the size of a mans winkle and the amount of money he spends on his gear.  ;)

Online Gutbucket

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Re: very simple setup for stealth recording
« Reply #135 on: May 22, 2018, 09:41:55 AM »
..but with reasonable levels of competency and location the rig with the better gear will sound better than the rig with the subpar gear.

Sure, no argument there, everyone at TS understands what good gear is capable of.
The thing is, those reasonable quantifiers actually imply the same hierarchy outlined above.

Reasonable location > reasonable level of competency > better or subpar gear

When either of the first two are not up to snuff, reasonably competent gear used incompetently from a poor location will not save the day.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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