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Author Topic: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?  (Read 5368 times)

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Offline taper420

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V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« on: December 03, 2008, 10:23:07 PM »
I'm going to have to try this next week and I'm hoping for some tips to help me avoid any problems. Basically what should the settings be on both devices? Where should I keep the V3 levels (I'm thinking the first amber should just flicker at the loudest parts)?

I have to sync the P2 clock to my video camera, so I don't think I can get a clean spidf signal from the V3 without locking to it's clock. Am I off base here?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 10:26:36 PM by taper420 »
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Offline Kyle

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 11:49:59 PM »
I am curious about this as well. I know that with the HD-P2 you can sync to the incoming SPDIF signal or to its internal clock. If you sync a device (camera) to the P2 but the P2 is sync'ed to the V3, what clock is the camera sync'ed to - the P2 or the V3? If the camera is sync'ed to the P2's clock regardless, you could use the SPDIF stream from the V3. If it is dependent on the settings of the P2, you are in business if you want to use the V3. Then again the V3 has a word clock out unless it is an opti-mod - is that the case here?

Is there an issue (other than opti-mod) with syncing to the V3? I personally prefer the ADC in the V3 to the P2.
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2008, 09:38:05 AM »
without getting into clock sources/issues, and to answer the original question, here it is:

according to the HD-P2 manual, it says that the Line-in (via the RCA jacks) can accept an analog signal up of 0dBu (with the dial set to "trim min").

the table below is reproduced from the V3 manual.  (the unbalanced outs corresponds to using an XLR > RCA cable, because the V3 only has XLR outs.  As we see, the unbalanced connection is always 6dB lower than the balanced output).

LED Color.............dBFS...................Balanced Analog Out (dBu)............Unbalanced Analog Out (dBu)............
Red0+25+19
Amber-3+22+16
Amber-6+19+13
Amber-9+16+10
Green-12+13+7
Green-15+10+4
Green-21+4-2
Green-27-2-8



So, if all the published specs are accurate (and I know that the V3 specs are accurate, but I haven't ever tested the V3 > analog out > HD-P2), then the HD-P2 digital levels will hit 0dBfs when the analog input is 0dBu (and the level knob all the way down).  the V3's unbalanced analog output will be at 0dBu just above the second green light (the second green light will light up at -2dBu), but if you see the third green light on the V3 (which corresponds with +4dBu), then you know that that is too much signal for the HD-P2 to handle.

based on this, it seems to me that you'll be running the V3 a lot lower than you typically would, with peaks at the second green light.

Offline KenH

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2008, 09:53:08 AM »
I ran V3 > Analog Out > P2 (XLR in) and can more or less confirm that levels need to be extremely low on the V3 and the P2, so low that I didn't try it live and found I had to use the -20db pad on the P2 w/ switches set to line-in.   I've also heard that there is no way to bypass the preamp of the P2 when doing analog in, so you go through the V3 preamp and then the P2's.  The sound was good, but I think I like going V3>digi>P2 better.

/Ken
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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2008, 11:23:58 AM »
I have no experience with the P2, but it seems the digital option is much better.

Offline taper420

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 12:34:07 PM »
looks like I'm gonna have to do some extensive testing before next week.
as far as going unbalanced > rca.... don't the xlr inputs on the the P2 set to line in have more headroom?
and of course going digi would be the better option, but I'm not sure I can do that if I'm synced to the cameras clock. I think this would cause lots of ticking because the spidf clock from the V3 wouldn't be synced to the cameras. Unfortunately the V3 has no clock input, and my camera only has clock output. So the camera must be the host, and the audio must be the slave (audio chase video). So I think analog out of V3 may be the only way to go.
If you sync a device (camera) to the P2 but the P2 is sync'ed to the V3, what clock is the camera sync'ed to - the P2 or the V3?
Neither, the camera can only generate a clock, it can't slave to one. That's why I have to have the audio chase the video, not the other way around.

I don't have a wordclock out on my V3, and it wouldn't matter either way, as the camera couldn't sync to it. The P2 could, but it could just as easily sync to the spidf, that carries the audio as well. And since the cam can't sync to the p2 (only vice versa), it puts me back looking at my analog options.

Is that true, that even in XLR balanced line in mode, the P2 doesn't by-pass the preamp? Well okay, maybe it goes through it but if it's set to line in, wouldn't that mean it's basically just passing the signal through (not raising it), and therefor the coloration is minimal?


edit to add: it appears the P2 can take up to 13.8 dBu on it's XLR's at minimum trim. So that would be the fourth green light, just before the amber (amber would mean I'm clipping). I wonder if the 20dBs pad would effect this, and give me even more headroom. Gonna have to test this tonight. Would it make sense to go XLR unbalanced to get more headroom?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 01:02:02 PM by taper420 »
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Offline Jhurlbs81

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2008, 01:42:31 PM »
Quote
I have to sync the P2 clock to my video camera, so I don't think I can get a clean spidf signal from the V3 without locking to it's clock. Am I off base here?

Opps. Missed that part.

Quote
and of course going digi would be the better option, but I'm not sure I can do that if I'm synced to the cameras clock.


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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2008, 04:01:42 PM »
I've run V3 analog > R4... and can say the V3 lights are about 25db off, as Jason said.  Turn the gain on the P2 all the way down, and set the gain knobs on the V3 so the P2 meters are happy, which probably means the -27db LED on the V3 will flicker.

Can't quite figure out your clock situation... good luck with that.
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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2008, 09:06:06 PM »
From what I understand about the P2, going line-in unbalanced (via RCA) doe not send the signal through the mic-pre, but XLR in does. When I bought mine from the Oades, I only had the Basic mod done because I was going to use an outboard pre with it at all times (line in via RCA) so there was no reason to have the mic-pre stage upgraded.

I misread the original post about the clock sync issue, sorry about that. :)
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Offline taper420

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2008, 07:58:51 PM »
So I finally got to test my setup in the field and I must say it was a smashing success.

I ran the video out of my camera into the video ref of the P2, and used that as the clock. The audio stayed in sync the entire 2 hour show. I have both the video and audio on a timeline in FCP and I synced them up once at the beginning of each tape, and they stay in sync with absolutely no drift until the end of the show.

As far as running analog out of the V3, I went straight from the XLR output of the V3 into the XLR input of the P2. I had the P2 set to mic in (because line in switches to the RCA inputs). I had the preamp turned all the way down (0), and the -20 pads on. And believe it or not, the levels from the V3 matched up. I can't say if it was perfect or not, but if it wasn't, it was dam near close. I was running a MT as backup out of the V3, so I can compare waveforms to see how close they look, but I'm guessing it's gonna be pretty dam close.

Hope this helps someone in the future.
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Offline KenH

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2008, 01:28:12 PM »
So I finally got to test my setup in the field and I must say it was a smashing success.
...
As far as running analog out of the V3, I went straight from the XLR output of the V3 into the XLR input of the P2. I had the P2 set to mic in (because line in switches to the RCA inputs). I had the preamp turned all the way down (0), and the -20 pads on. And believe it or not, the levels from the V3 matched up.
Glad it worked out! 

Trying to understand what your settings were.
"preamp turned all the way down"  - on the V3 ?

When you say "P2 set to mic in (because line in switches to the RCA inputs)", I don't think this is true.  The XLR inputs still work if the Mic/Line in is set to Line.  On top of page 9 of the manual, it says:

"The input switches (LINE/MIC) switch between the XLR and RCA jack inputs" [what you said, but an error, I think]

while on bottom of page 9 Right Side view, it says (referring to the XLR ins labeled "Mic/Line"):

XLR Input Jacks for either Line level or Mic level (selected by switch on top) input.

So, I think you might be able to set the input switch to Line in while using the XLR inputs, and maybe avoid using the -20db pad.

/Ken


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Offline taper420

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2008, 01:37:58 PM »
that's what I was thinking... but I just couldn't get a signal at all (through the XLR jack) with it on line in. and it's weird because the XLR input distinctly says mic/line. So I switched it to Mic in, put the P2 preamp all the way down, and put the P2 -20 pad on. And I set the V3 as usual as if I was just running the MT. And it fuckin worked and sounds awesome.

So what am I doing here... cause some say you can't bypass the P2 preamp through the XLR. So am I using it, and raising the line level, and then padding it? Or does 0 and -20 put the preamp at unity, and just passthough the signal?

In the manual when they say the XLR line in is choosen by the switch on top... I think there referring to the -20 pad. If you think about it, that's exactly what the V3 does if you want to use it line in.  If anybody has any experience that differs from mine please share, but I think this is it.

It worked..... worked well.... and sounds dam good.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 01:41:07 PM by taper420 »
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Offline KenH

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2008, 01:50:40 PM »
In the manual when they say the XLR line in is choosen by the switch on top... I think there referring to the -20 pad. If you think about it, that's exactly what the V3 does if you want to use it line in. 
very interesting... never thought that the switch they're referring to on top might mean the -20db pad, but it could be.  And I agree that the V3 is analogous if set to line in.   

I'd have to double check to see if MIC/LINE set to LINE turns the P2.XLR ins off. Could have sworn it did not...

Also interesting that with the P2 level dial set to 0 that you still get a signal to record.  What did the P2 show for its level meters in this case ?   Same as the V3 I think you said.   [I guess that shows some lack of undersnading on my part as to what exactly that level dial does, besides increasing or decreasing levels.  If set to 0, I would expect no input... but that's untrue?]

Good info.

+T virtually

/Ken
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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 05:36:10 PM »
Quote
Also interesting that with the P2 level dial set to 0 that you still get a signal to record.  What did the P2 show for its level meters in this case ?   Same as the V3 I think you said.   [I guess that shows some lack of undersnading on my part as to what exactly that level dial does, besides increasing or decreasing levels.  If set to 0, I would expect no input... but that's untrue?]

I know this is an old thread, but there is some contradictory and incomplete information about this topic all over the web.   Many people have shown concern about the HD-P2 and the XLR line input.  From what I gather, the HD-P2's line input does not use the mic preamp if the -20db is on and the gain knob is turned down.  Here  is a quote from Doug Oades website that might help explain this.  The knob is a gain knob, not an attenuation...  That may explain why when the knob is at 0 it still passes signal.  A traditional design has an attenuation knob, when you turn it the whole way down it attenuates to nothing...

From Oade
Quote
Tascam HD-P2: The record level control in the HD-P2 is unique in that it actually allows you to set levels by adjusting the gain (this is how much the preamp amplifies or increases the signal from the microphone) of the mic preamp with a mic preamp gain control that is continuously adjustable. This insures that your signal quality is always optimized for the best possible signal quality by design, a very good design ! If you are new to the HD-P2, it's input selection labeling can be confusing. When the deck is set to line in, that selects the RCA inputs while the setting labeled mic selects the XLR inputs. You record XLR line in by setting the deck to XLR in and the PAD to -20dB. The controls might be more properly labeled with the LINE/MIC switches labeled RCA/XLR and the Left/Right PAD switches labeled MIC/LINE.

Here is something additional I found from DSatz about using the XLR's line in on the HD-P2.  This made me feel more confortable using the XLRs, even though I don't really understand what he is saying...

From Dsatz:
Quote
I don't know the input circuit of this recorder, but with many recorders, switching from mike to line level is done intelligently (by adjusting the feedback around the circuit stage), such that the input noise level in the line input setting is much lower than when the same inputs are set for microphone-level signals. In that case you would have nothing to fear from using the line-level inputs; "bypassing" the mike preamps would not be a relevant concept.

On the other hand some recorders, when you switch them to line level input, simply pad down the signal to microphone level and then amplify it with a high-gain input stage. Recorders like that should be avoided, or should be fed only with digital signals, but they are relatively rare as far as I've seen; the only example I've come across in many years is the Sony TCD-D10 Pro portable DAT recorder, whose analog inputs are almost unusable with professional microphones OR line-level equipment because of this stupid design approach.

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Offline mattmiller

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2011, 12:31:28 PM »
From Oade
Quote
Tascam HD-P2: The record level control in the HD-P2 is unique in that it actually allows you to set levels by adjusting the gain (this is how much the preamp amplifies or increases the signal from the microphone) of the mic preamp with a mic preamp gain control that is continuously adjustable. This insures that your signal quality is always optimized for the best possible signal quality by design, a very good design ! If you are new to the HD-P2, it's input selection labeling can be confusing. When the deck is set to line in, that selects the RCA inputs while the setting labeled mic selects the XLR inputs. You record XLR line in by setting the deck to XLR in and the PAD to -20dB. The controls might be more properly labeled with the LINE/MIC switches labeled RCA/XLR and the Left/Right PAD switches labeled MIC/LINE.

Great explanation.
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Offline paulr

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2011, 11:37:08 AM »
This thread has been an incredible help explaining some of the frustrating experrnces I have had with my rig.
Earthworks SR77>Sound Devices MP2 >HDP2.

With the gain on the HDP2 set to 0 there was still quite a strong signal to the HDP2.   
The -20 pad vs. the XLR in and line/mic setting was confusing me as well.
Without the pad set to -20 bypassing the HDP2 preamp it is scary HS, WTF did I do kinda blown out.
Makes sense now. 

thanks everyone  ;D
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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2011, 01:23:33 PM »
THe P2 can also be set to take a clock source from the spdif while using either xlr or rca inputs.  AND I always thought the MIC/LINE label was confusing on the P2.  It should say XLR/RCA instead

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2011, 03:59:22 AM »
Very helpful thread!
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Offline rodeen

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2011, 12:49:16 PM »
THe P2 can also be set to take a clock source from the spdif while using either xlr or rca inputs.  AND I always thought the MIC/LINE label was confusing on the P2.  It should say XLR/RCA instead

This sounds cools, but I don't understand under what circumstances you would do this?  Can you take a signal from and SPDIF in and combine it with XLR/RCA and do an on the fly 4 channel mix? 

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Re: V3 (Analog out) > HDP2?
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2011, 12:55:15 PM »
no you cannot mix signals, the reason to do something like this may vary but using it with otherdecks and/or using it on film wold be two reasons.  Don't limit your thinking to just two channel recording

 

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