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Author Topic: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")  (Read 24593 times)

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Offline Todd R

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2011, 01:08:06 PM »
Wow, bummer to hear of all the issues with the MM-4220.  I had the MM-4210 and thought it was a great piece of gear, with none of the problems you're mentioning.

The 5ma phantom is pretty silly, but the overloading makes me wonder if there is problem with your particular unit or how it is being used.

To help track things down, can you give more info on your recording chain?  Are you recording directly with the mm4220 using its internal CF recorder, or are you sending a signal to an external recorder?  If the latter, what is the recorder and are you sending it an analog signal from the 4220's XLRs or are you sending a digital spdif signal?

I'm also confused by your description that the inputs of the MM4220 are clipping.  First off, the 4220 is supposed to take a max input of +12dbu, which is a really hot signal.  Second, if it is truly clipping on the inputs, changing the gain shouldn't have any effect on whether it clips or not.

A preamp or mixer like the 4220 can clip on either its inputs (meaning you are feeding it too hot of a signal) or it can clip on its outputs (meaning the input signal level is fine, but the mixer cannot output that hot of a signal after applying whatever internal gain you are using).  If the clipping depends on the gain level, that sounds like output clipping to me, not input clipping.

Somewhat oddly, the 4220 is spec'd to accept a max signal of +12dbu (very hot for a mic, and pretty much impossible for a dynamic mic to clip -- you'd probably need sound levels in excess of 150db to accomplish this), and also is spec'd for a max output level of +12dbu.

It doesn't sound like you have an input clipping problem, but if you do, you definitely have a bad unit.  If you are experiencing output clipping, can you tell what you are using for trim gain and master gain?  You mention using the +48db base gain, but the 4220 adds onto that up to 12db of trim gain and up to 12db of master gain, for a maximum total of 72db of gain. 

For the ensemble you're recording, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you a clipping the outputs if you are using +48db of base gain, plus 6-12db of trim gain, plus 6-12db of master gain.  That could easily get above the max of +12dbu on the outputs, even using dynamic mics.  For dynamic mics using the +48db setting, I don't think you'd want more than 3-6db of gain on each of the trim and master knobs.  For condensers, I'd never set the base gain past the +24db setting.

I don't know if that helps or you tried all that, but I'd say that if you are having input clipping, you have a bum unit.  And I wouldn't think you'd have output clipping if you keep the trim and master gain knobs at the +3db setting, but easily could if you go beyond +6db on those knobs if you're using the +48db setting.

Maybe that helps, but the 5ma max for phantom is still a pisser.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline praxel

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2011, 04:03:01 PM »
Hi Todd,

you may have a point. It may be the converter that is clipping. I have addressed these issues with Marenius, and just got the explanation that this is the way it is built.

To begin with, I am recording on the CF memory.

On the recording yesterday, I used the 48dB position on the dynamic mike, with the first potentionmeter at approx -6 dB. The master knob was at 0 dB. No additional amplification was used.

A normal sax tone was heavily distorted. This makes me also doubt Marenius´ explanation that if I have to go down on the chanell knob, I am likely to overdrive the input. It seems more likely that it is the converter that is overloaded.

If I generate a sinus wave at 1kHz at - 15 dB, and run my Lynx card at +4dB, what should the mixers meters indicate? What is your suggestion? If the chanell knob and the master knob are at zero dB on the MM-4220 ?

I have also made a sweep, and run that on the three positions, and that shows that in the line position, there is a lack of low midrange, from 100 Hz . The sweep was up to 500 Hz. I will make one up to 1kHz.

The 24dB amlification measuers a little better, while the 48dB position is pretty straight.

I would really love it if this was due to a bad unit. Perhaps Marenius would let me try another one?

Peter Axelsson

Offline praxel

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2011, 01:17:47 AM »
Todd,

I think you are right that this is a bad unit. I applied a signal at digital zero from a -10 dB output, and turning the master knob down to -15dB, the meters showed -12 dB. I recorded the signal, and the waveform was almost a square wave. Then I did the same thing with the master knob on 0 and lowered the gain knob until the meters showed -12dB, and I had the same wave form.

From that, I think that the internal amplification is set much to high. That means that this unit is clipping on signals over 200 mV or something like that.
I don't even dare to think about how many bits are used, recording on those levels.

I will have Marenius look at it, and give you my oppinion after that.

But I wonder how this can occur. Is the amplification set mechanically, or through programming? If it is by programming, the values could change if the unit is completely out of power for a period of time. I don't know, this is only speculations.

Peter Axelsson

Offline sunjan

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2011, 05:12:21 PM »
Hej Peter,

Marenius himself used to follow this thread, and I know he cares about his reputation.
For the price you paid, surely some customer service comes with it.
Ask for a replacement unit, or at least a loaner so you can compare it with your (dud) unit.
Or if you live near his area, bring in your unit and have them test it on the spot, maybe they can demo and check the settings?

Let me get this straight: when you were running Mics>Line Audio preamp>(40dB attenuation)>MM-4220, I guess that was mic in? What about going line in instead? Or you didn't wan't line in because of different flavor?

/Jan
Mics: A-51s LE, CK 930, Line Audo CM3, AT853Rx (hc,c,sc),  ECM 121, ECM 909A
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Offline praxel

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2011, 07:03:28 PM »
Hi Jan,

no, it was the line position.

I don't know how strong signal the Line Audio amplifier has, but without attenuation between the preamp and the MM4220, and 20 dB attenuation on the mic preamp, I had the mic preamps knob on 8, if it start on 7. I didn't match very well.

I visited Marenius today, and he measured the unit, and stated that it was ok. So I guess I have to go through my gear and calibrate my outputs before I say anything more about the mixer.

I hate to have this matching problems with this mixer. The a/d conversion is really decent, and he has chosen a good clock . I have no complains there. But the sensitivity of the inputs, the different frequency response at different amplification settings makes it different from anything I have ever recorded with.

This mixer has 122 dB signal to noise. I guess it would be possible to sacrifice some of that ratio, and get more headroom on the imputs.

Peter

Offline audBall

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2015, 06:16:55 PM »
Haven't seen any discussion here about this newer recorder from Marenius.


Marenius MM-4240 - 6 channel recorder (4-channel + stereo mix)

http://www.marenius.se/audiodesign/mm-4240.htm

Records at 24bit/96kHz
A/D dynamic range 107dB
External supply voltage 6-15 VDC
Size (H x W x D) 5.6 x 14 x 13.8 cm

Price: € 2,211









Offline jbell

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2015, 06:20:56 PM »
Looks cool!!  Any US distributors?

Haven't seen any discussion here about this newer recorder from Marenius.


Marenius MM-4240 - 6 channel recorder (4-channel + stereo mix)

http://www.marenius.se/audiodesign/mm-4240.htm

Records at 24bit/96kHz
A/D dynamic range 107dB
External supply voltage 6-15 VDC
Size (H x W x D) 5.6 x 14 x 13.8 cm

Price: € 2,211




« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 08:20:15 PM by jbell »
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline audBall

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2015, 07:39:35 PM »
Look cool!!  Any US distributors?

There aren't any listed on their site. Exchange rates aren't looking too bad these days.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2015, 08:42:27 PM »
Nice. Whats that in US currency? My PC is super slow right now or id look :)
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman & Shanling M0 DAP's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax | CA Litz | Westone Bluetooth MMCX Cables ->
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone UM Pro 30 (G2) IEM's ->
Comply Isolation+ & Sport+ Memory Foam Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline H₂O

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2015, 08:43:13 PM »
2200 Euros ~ $2400
Music can at the least least explain you and at the most expand you
LMA Recordings

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2015, 01:17:45 PM »

Anyone know what kind of connector that is on the SPDIF out? Don't see a digital input...

Looks like an interesting unit but for the price (and shipping plus VAT from Sweden if no US distributors) I would likely go with something else that has a higher channel count.
Schoeps MK41 > nBob > PFA || MBHO KA300 > PFA
Aerco MP2 || Grace Lunatec V2 || RAD MS2
Marantz PMD706 || PMD620

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Offline audBall

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2015, 03:29:26 PM »
I think it's a mini DIN-4 connector.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector

Offline jbell

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Re: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2015, 03:32:45 PM »
One went for $946 on ebay in January.  At that price I'd buy it. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231435761829
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

 

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