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Author Topic: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?  (Read 5432 times)

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Offline alogic

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PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« on: June 09, 2009, 05:34:23 PM »
I am a bit of a noob, and this might be a silly question, but:

I have a Marantz PMD661. I am planning to do some ambient recording, and some super close in high gain recording.
My question is: I am looking at the Sound Devices Mix-Pre, and I know a lot of people use the R09HR with it via the clean line-in as a 'bit bucket'. With the PMD661, would/could I go XLR to XLR from the SD Mix-Pre into the PMD661, and if so, would their be any (tiny?) upside to that as opposed to the 1/8 inch Line in on the R09HR? Would that bypass the PMD661's pre so as to utilize the Mix-Pre's quiet pre? Or how about the line in on the PMD661, is that basically the same as the R09HR? I already have the PMD661, recently sold my R09HR but I will need to be doing this type of quiet recording for a while now, and if there is no real upside at all and everything is equal when using the PMD661, as opposed to using a R09HR as a 'bit bucket', then I would likely keep the PMD661 unless there is a DOWNside with the PMD661 compared to using the R09HR. Again, I am doing super high gain recording, and outdoors ambient recording.

Thanks, and again, sorry if some of this is 'Duh!' type stuff!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 11:35:29 PM by alogic »

Offline JM Charcot

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2009, 06:09:29 AM »
I don't think this would work because the mixpre has XLR Line-out..

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2009, 08:31:12 AM »
I don't think this would work because the mixpre has XLR Line-out..

the PMD-661 has both XLR line-in and a second 1/8" line-in.

This should work just fine.  I don't think there's any downside to running thte PMD-661 instead of the R09hr.  If I were doign this, I'd set the gain knob on the 661 somewhere in the middle (~5) and leave it alone, and then adjust the gain on the Mix-Pre as needed.

Offline alogic

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2009, 09:30:04 AM »
I don't think this would work because the mixpre has XLR Line-out..


If I were doign this, I'd set the gain knob on the 661 somewhere in the middle (~5) and leave it alone, and then adjust the gain on the Mix-Pre as needed.

Ah, I was thinking it was optimal to TOTALLY avoid the PMD661's preamp (because of it's self noise), which I think happens if you go into the 1/8 inch line in on the PMD661. Would going into the PMD661's XLR in NOT avoid the PMD661's preamp, and just turning the gain way down (~5 as you said) achieve the same 'quietness'? I guess my confusion is that like with the R09HR 'bit-bucket', isn't there sort of an upside using the Line-in as opposed to the XLR because the signal recorded from the Mix-Pre is clean from the Mix-Pre's quieter and better controlled preamp/signal?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 04:37:38 PM by alogic »

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2009, 10:26:35 AM »
Ah, I was thinking it was optimal to TOTALLY avoid the PMD661's preamp (because of it's self noise), which I think happens if you go into the 1/4 inch line in on the PMD661. Would going into the PMD661's XLR in NOT avoid the PMD661's preamp, and just turning the gain way down (~5 as you said) achieve the same 'quietness'? I guess my confusion is that like with the R09HR 'bit-bucket', isn't there sort of an upside using the Line-in as opposed to the XLR because the signal recorded from the Mix-Pre is clean from the Mix-Pre's quieter and better controlled preamp/signal?

You can use the XLR inputs on the 661 for line. Make sure to slide the selector switch into the LINE position (phantom on/phantom off/line). You could use the line in 2 jack (1/8" not 1/4"?) but it is the same theoretically as using the XLR line input, personally I'd use the XLR in because it's a much more secure connection.

Do a couple home tests, try both adding little gain with the 661 and perhaps mid-point 5 and see if you hear any audible difference. I don't know at what point the 661 is adding gain or applying trim, if someone knows the answer to that it might be helpful.

The upside of using the 1/8" line input of the R09HR would be that you're not using the 1/8" mic input, the unit does not have XLR inputs. The 661 has both XLR line in and 1/8" line in, the XLR line in must be selected with a switch. If you're familiar with Sony DAT recorders, they had a common 1/8" mic/line input selectable with a switch on the back.

I'd go with JasonSobels advice, unless you find the level adjustment for the line input range from trim to gain, without knowing that Jason's suggestion is your best bet.
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
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Offline DATBRAD

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2009, 11:05:05 AM »
I don't think this would work because the mixpre has XLR Line-out..


If I were doign this, I'd set the gain knob on the 661 somewhere in the middle (~5) and leave it alone, and then adjust the gain on the Mix-Pre as needed.

Ah, I was thinking it was optimal to TOTALLY avoid the PMD661's preamp (because of it's self noise), which I think happens if you go into the 1/4 inch line in on the PMD661. Would going into the PMD661's XLR in NOT avoid the PMD661's preamp, and just turning the gain way down (~5 as you said) achieve the same 'quietness'? I guess my confusion is that like with the R09HR 'bit-bucket', isn't there sort of an upside using the Line-in as opposed to the XLR because the signal recorded from the Mix-Pre is clean from the Mix-Pre's quieter and better controlled preamp/signal?

You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade. I did this, but also still use my outboard preamps because I like the added control it offers over the signal to the recorder. I use the MP-1 mono blocks, XLR out to the 661's mechanically switched XLR line in. The XLR line in is -14db down in sensitivity compared to an RCA, 1/8", or 1/4" unbalanced line input (the 661 does not have a 1/4" input, I am not sure where you got that info) so you will find that you can run a hot preamp like the Mixpre, and still have the gain on the deck set way up between 1-2 o'clock and be just fine. If I did not already have the preamps, I probably would just go with the modded 661 preamps, as the chips Doug puts in have a dynamic range exceeding 120 db, compared to the stock chips that barely give 90 db dynamic range, leaving you with that self noise you are worried about. Good luck!
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Offline Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2009, 11:31:09 AM »
You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade.

The mod has nothing to do with avoiding the preamp. The mods upgrade components in the signal path for both mic and line input when using the XLR inputs but does not effect the 1/8" line input. They do improve the dynamic range and self-noise of a stock unit.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 11:33:58 AM by Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan »
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
Girls always up on Andy tryin to grab these mics, the scratches are from their wedding rings.

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2009, 02:52:54 PM »
You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade.

The mod has nothing to do with avoiding the preamp. The mods upgrade components in the signal path for both mic and line input when using the XLR inputs but does not effect the 1/8" line input. They do improve the dynamic range and self-noise of a stock unit.


Doug told me that all the chips in the analog path from the XLRs to the A/D are upgraded, so technically, plugging mics into a modded 661 avoids the noisy preamp chips found in the stock unit, so I stand by my statement.

You are correct that the 1/8" line input has a separate analog signal path, and those chips are not upgraded.
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Offline Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2009, 05:03:52 PM »
You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade.

The mod has nothing to do with avoiding the preamp. The mods upgrade components in the signal path for both mic and line input when using the XLR inputs but does not effect the 1/8" line input. They do improve the dynamic range and self-noise of a stock unit.


Doug told me that all the chips in the analog path from the XLRs to the A/D are upgraded, so technically, plugging mics into a modded 661 avoids the noisy preamp chips found in the stock unit, so I stand by my statement.

You are correct that the 1/8" line input has a separate analog signal path, and those chips are not upgraded.

He replaces the op-amps, there is no such thing as preamp chips. The line stage passes through one set of op-amps before the A/D, utilizing mic input you also pass through the preamp of the unit. The upgrade also replaces input capacitors to clean up the signal path.
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
Girls always up on Andy tryin to grab these mics, the scratches are from their wedding rings.

CMC641 / DPA4022 / DPA4062>mod MPS6030
V3 / PMD671 / field ready DV-RA1000 / Oade W-mod PMD661 / PCM-M10

Offline DATBRAD

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 05:21:30 PM »
You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade.

The mod has nothing to do with avoiding the preamp. The mods upgrade components in the signal path for both mic and line input when using the XLR inputs but does not effect the 1/8" line input. They do improve the dynamic range and self-noise of a stock unit.


Doug told me that all the chips in the analog path from the XLRs to the A/D are upgraded, so technically, plugging mics into a modded 661 avoids the noisy preamp chips found in the stock unit, so I stand by my statement.

You are correct that the 1/8" line input has a separate analog signal path, and those chips are not upgraded.

He replaces the op-amps, there is no such thing as preamp chips. The line stage passes through one set of op-amps before the A/D, utilizing mic input you also pass through the preamp of the unit. The upgrade also replaces input capacitors to clean up the signal path.

Really? I recall Doug telling me that all mic preamps have to use either op-amps (FET or BIPOLAR chips being the 2 solid state options) transformers, or tubes to add gain. He said that for the 661, with both line and mic input at the XLRs, after leaving the input capacitors, the signal runs through one set of common op-amps, and if switched to mic in, passes through another stage of op-amps designed to boost mic level signals. Basically, the entire analog path from the XLR to the A/D is supposed to be upgraded for both mic in and line in. Maybe I misunderstood what he told me, but that is what I recall him telling me before I ordered my WMOD that uses FET chips for gain, instead of the BIPOLAR chips used in the Concert, Super, and of course in the stock unit as well.

I am not a bench guy,  but I think I understand the concepts fairly well by this point in my taping career.
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Offline Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2009, 07:30:57 PM »
You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade.

The mod has nothing to do with avoiding the preamp. The mods upgrade components in the signal path for both mic and line input when using the XLR inputs but does not effect the 1/8" line input. They do improve the dynamic range and self-noise of a stock unit.


Doug told me that all the chips in the analog path from the XLRs to the A/D are upgraded, so technically, plugging mics into a modded 661 avoids the noisy preamp chips found in the stock unit, so I stand by my statement.

You are correct that the 1/8" line input has a separate analog signal path, and those chips are not upgraded.

He replaces the op-amps, there is no such thing as preamp chips. The line stage passes through one set of op-amps before the A/D, utilizing mic input you also pass through the preamp of the unit. The upgrade also replaces input capacitors to clean up the signal path.

Really? I recall Doug telling me that all mic preamps have to use either op-amps (FET or BIPOLAR chips being the 2 solid state options) transformers, or tubes to add gain. He said that for the 661, with both line and mic input at the XLRs, after leaving the input capacitors, the signal runs through one set of common op-amps, and if switched to mic in, passes through another stage of op-amps designed to boost mic level signals. Basically, the entire analog path from the XLR to the A/D is supposed to be upgraded for both mic in and line in. Maybe I misunderstood what he told me, but that is what I recall him telling me before I ordered my WMOD that uses FET chips for gain, instead of the BIPOLAR chips used in the Concert, Super, and of course in the stock unit as well.

I am not a bench guy,  but I think I understand the concepts fairly well by this point in my taping career.

Right...

XLR line = Line input > input caps > op-amps > a/d
XLR min = Mic input >input caps > op-amps > mic stage op-amps > a/d

Before you said: You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade.

Either way you're using the initial "preamp" stage, but with upgraded components. Like when someone said "avoiding the pre-amp" in reference to DAT equipment, it meant the additional mic-preamp gain stage. Upgraded or not the XLR line input on the 661 does not pass through the additional mic input op-amps before hitting the a/d converter.

I was mislead by the way that it was worded, but I think you meant (correct me if I'm wrong): You can also have the PMD661's noisier preamp upgraded with quieter components with one of Doug Oade's mods.
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
Girls always up on Andy tryin to grab these mics, the scratches are from their wedding rings.

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Offline carpa

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2009, 10:42:55 AM »
A question for alogic or for someone who knows both Marantz 661 (stock unit) and Edirol R09HR.
Apart from the different connections (xlr's vs. 1/8 inch) in there so much difference between the stock preamps in the two decks?
And in the quality of line ins?

Another opinion I would like to receive is about  the use of an external preamps (maybe a silly question).
Given that something as mix pre or equivalent  can safely be an upgrade for decks like the one we are talking about, how would you judge cheaper things like the Beachtek, or the Juicedlink or Church audio any other mic preamp (even not battery powerable) in a lower price range (let's say from 150 to 350 dollars?

I intentionally ask this in general terms (some have xlr ins and outs, P48, etc. and  some haven't), so I'm not asking an analysis of each product; I know that every pre sound different and coupled with different mics the reactions might be a lot.
I just would like to know wether on average buying an external preamp means an upgrade for the little decks we are using or the difference might prove scarcely audible.
thank you

c

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2009, 11:38:13 AM »
You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade.

The mod has nothing to do with avoiding the preamp. The mods upgrade components in the signal path for both mic and line input when using the XLR inputs but does not effect the 1/8" line input. They do improve the dynamic range and self-noise of a stock unit.


Doug told me that all the chips in the analog path from the XLRs to the A/D are upgraded, so technically, plugging mics into a modded 661 avoids the noisy preamp chips found in the stock unit, so I stand by my statement.

You are correct that the 1/8" line input has a separate analog signal path, and those chips are not upgraded.

He replaces the op-amps, there is no such thing as preamp chips. The line stage passes through one set of op-amps before the A/D, utilizing mic input you also pass through the preamp of the unit. The upgrade also replaces input capacitors to clean up the signal path.

Really? I recall Doug telling me that all mic preamps have to use either op-amps (FET or BIPOLAR chips being the 2 solid state options) transformers, or tubes to add gain. He said that for the 661, with both line and mic input at the XLRs, after leaving the input capacitors, the signal runs through one set of common op-amps, and if switched to mic in, passes through another stage of op-amps designed to boost mic level signals. Basically, the entire analog path from the XLR to the A/D is supposed to be upgraded for both mic in and line in. Maybe I misunderstood what he told me, but that is what I recall him telling me before I ordered my WMOD that uses FET chips for gain, instead of the BIPOLAR chips used in the Concert, Super, and of course in the stock unit as well.

I am not a bench guy,  but I think I understand the concepts fairly well by this point in my taping career.

Right...

XLR line = Line input > input caps > op-amps > a/d
XLR min = Mic input >input caps > op-amps > mic stage op-amps > a/d

Before you said: You can also totally avoid the PMD661's preamp by getting it modded where the stock preamp chips are replaced by Doug Oade.

Either way you're using the initial "preamp" stage, but with upgraded components. Like when someone said "avoiding the pre-amp" in reference to DAT equipment, it meant the additional mic-preamp gain stage. Upgraded or not the XLR line input on the 661 does not pass through the additional mic input op-amps before hitting the a/d converter.

I was mislead by the way that it was worded, but I think you meant (correct me if I'm wrong): You can also have the PMD661's noisier preamp upgraded with quieter components with one of Doug Oade's mods.


Yep, you got what I meant. I think the OP was thinking that the only way to get around the noisy internal preamps was an external, and that is not true if the unit is modded. For applications needing high gain and low noise, the Super Mod Doug does is perfect. I like using my preamps for the opposite reason, being able to take a very loud source and harness it without distortion. I have not tried running mics right in, but next time I tape a show that I am not concerned about getting hit with high SPLs, I think I am going to try dropping the preamps as an experiment.
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Offline Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2009, 03:41:51 PM »
I think the OP was thinking that the only way to get around the noisy internal preamps was an external, and that is not true if the unit is modded.

I appologize in advance Brad. I know this sounds annoying, but...

Either way you are not avoiding or getting around them, you are simply upgrading them with the mod.

To beat a dead horse with an analogy: You don't repave a road to avoid the potholes, nor do you repave a road to get around the potholes, you rapave the road so that it's no longer bumpy to drive on.
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
Girls always up on Andy tryin to grab these mics, the scratches are from their wedding rings.

CMC641 / DPA4022 / DPA4062>mod MPS6030
V3 / PMD671 / field ready DV-RA1000 / Oade W-mod PMD661 / PCM-M10

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2009, 09:48:02 AM »
I think the OP was thinking that the only way to get around the noisy internal preamps was an external, and that is not true if the unit is modded.

I appologize in advance Brad. I know this sounds annoying, but...

Either way you are not avoiding or getting around them, you are simply upgrading them with the mod.

To beat a dead horse with an analogy: You don't repave a road to avoid the potholes, nor do you repave a road to get around the potholes, you rapave the road so that it's no longer bumpy to drive on.

Semantics

I think the man is trying to avoid noise, not the concept of an internal preamp, at least that was my interpretation.
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Offline alogic

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2009, 05:00:39 PM »
This is definitely some great information, thanks a bunch.

So with the key ingredient here being that this setup will not be used for loud sources or taping shows, but is being used for taping very very quiet material with very high gain settings on the MixPre, and my objective was to have as *little* noise as possible added to the signal from the MixPre, I understand that I am not going to "avoid the preamps" (or circuitry, whatever you want to call it) regardless weather I go in thru the XLR or the 1/8 inch line in. With this in mind ->

1) Am I going to add any noise, even a minute amount when using the XLR or the 1/4 inch Line ins, with the PMD661 preamp/circuitry in the equation? I gather the answer is yes but with the gain settings on the PMD661 set as low as possible I avoid this as much as possible, am I correct?

2) A lot of people use the R09HR with the MixPre as a "bit-bucket". The line in on the R09HR is known to be very quiet I'm told, but it's circuitry gets introduced to the signal via line in just like on the PMD661, No? They all go thru the same preamp/circuitry right? Even on the R09HR?

3) How would the line in on the R09HR vs the line on on the PMD661 compare in terms of introducing as little of their respective self noise to what is being sent from the MixPre? Since the preamp on the PMD661 is a little quieter than the R09HR, it is a slight improvement, no?

Thanks, and again I appreciate the patience. This community as taught me a LOT reading thru the posts. Everyone that has contributed to tappersection should feel proud. I hope to contribute as well in good time.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 05:19:04 PM by alogic »

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Re: PMD661 with Sound Devices Mix-Pre?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2009, 05:34:09 PM »
That is also what I wanted to ask. In other terms; being a deck's mic preamp better or slightly better than another one's, does it mean the same difference will be noticed also in the line in?


c


3) How would the line in on the R09HR vs the line on on the PMD661 compare in terms of introducing as little of their respective self noise to what is being sent from the MixPre? Since the preamp on the PMD661 is a little quieter than the R09HR, it is a slight improvement, no?

« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 05:36:05 PM by carpa »

 

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