Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)  (Read 112212 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2199
Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« on: January 08, 2010, 04:43:06 PM »

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2199
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2010, 04:50:06 PM »
Looking at guysonic’s graphs (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123), it appears to me that the line-in noise on the PCM-M10 is essentially the same as on the R09HR (perhaps fractionally lower), while the mic-in looks considerably quieter.  Nice curve with the plug-in power off too…

And is the gain from the M10 cleaner than from guy’s pre??? ;)

I mentioned this before, but I don't think anyone responded.

The Edirol can sample at 88.2khz - exactly double the CD standard of 44.1.  Sony doesn't.  I don't know if this makes a difference, and if downsampling 88.2>44.1 is easier / better than 96>44.1.

I was listening to Live Trane - the European Tour, and the notes indicate that was 24/88.2 mastering.

It's my understanding that this would make a difference with a simple linear sample rate converter, but not with the asynchronous arbitrary sample rate converters used by many (most? all?) software packages/plug-ins. 

On a related topic, this is a pretty interesting read on the whole issue of sampling rate.  Not for the faint of heart, though!  From Dan Lavry:  http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pdf

EDIT:  I meant arbitrary, not asynchronous.  Still, I am not sure where I read this...
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 08:45:35 PM by aaronji »

Offline Jamos

  • Trade Count: (51)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1557
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2010, 12:31:05 AM »
just checking in here...still very happy with my M10.

I've owned and used most of the currently available portable recorders, and between the battery life, the low-noise and high audio quality, and design/ease of use, the M10 wins without a doubt. 

The only ones I like using more are the Sound Devices 7xx recorders.



Offline guysonic

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1366
  • WISDOM FOR ALL TIMES
    • Sonic Studios DSM Stereo-Surround Microphone Systems
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2010, 03:17:14 AM »
Looking at guysonic’s graphs (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123), it appears to me that the line-in noise on the PCM-M10 is essentially the same as on the R09HR (perhaps fractionally lower), while the mic-in looks considerably quieter.  Nice curve with the plug-in power off too…

And is the gain from the M10 cleaner than from guy’s pre??? ;) meant arbitrary, not asynchronous.

The term ‘Clean’ in audio really asks two questions about NOISE, and about AUDIO DISTORTIONS.

Using (my own PA-3SX) preamplifier in 09HR tests low frequency showed 'MIC POWER ON' noise is greatly reduced, AND all that high frequency digital garbage is eliminated. 


ALSO, the 09HR audible distortions (call it coloration) of at least acoustic sounds improved (more accurate audio) using the external pre and 09HR LINE input.

Such 09HR deck improvements using an external preamplifier are visually obvious, but verses the very 'clean' lack of noise M10 MIC input (and using mostly only in LOW setting with mic power off) little or no audible lower noise advantages (using external pre) with M10 deck.



However, if needing M10’s mic powering turned on, and especially higher input gains than available in LOW mic (this not so likely for most recordists), then external preamplifier LINE input mode may have audible advantage of reduced low frequency noise, and more accuracy (less colored sound) than available from M10 mic input modes.

NOTE: Tests still required to prove M10’s audible colorations, if any, using Sony's mic input.  Same type tests done with 09HR mic vs. line+pre  (illustrated in thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=109703.0;all) might be appropriate for M10.

After doing most all the intentioned M10 deck electrical bench testing, and one urban ambient recording using DSM-6S/EH powered mic working the LOW setting, the only (minor) shortcoming was audible reduction of <20 cycle very low bass sounds.  I think this not an issue as this can be fixed to taste in post edit if deemed required for sound design interests or specialized audiophile type musical recordings.

While my personal favorite field recording configuration remains using the 09HR+external pre for widest bandwidth and 88.2K sampling ability, the M10+DSM mic combination shown below is a close second.  But also feel I’d choose the M10+DSM mic configuration as my first choice for all 24bit/44.1K-96K recording projects.


« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 03:43:03 AM by guysonic »
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline bucsab12

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 113
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2010, 03:03:59 PM »
Thank you guysonic for all the tests that you ran.

I am a beginner at recording and have only recorded a few shows using a Zoom H2.

I have been trying to decide between the M10 and the HR9 since the M10 came out a few months ago.

The graphs that you posted here are a little too complicated for me.

Can you please tell me (as simple as possible) which recorder is better in terms of audio quality using the following setups:

1. External mics mics>External preamp/battery box>Mic Input (Mic power turned Off)

2. External mics mics>External preamp/battery box>Line Input (Mic power turned Off)

Thank you very much in advance

Offline earmonger

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 569
  • 20-20000 Hz
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2010, 04:00:41 PM »
As in the posts quoted below, I'm having trouble getting a SanDisk 8GB microSD card recognized, also a 16GB card, both working in my mp3 player. I just formatted the 8GB to FAT32 with my PC and still nothing. Can anyone suggest exactly what kind of "Messin' with the menu" I should try? Thanks.


--------------------
From previous posts:

Quote from: gmm6797 on November 09, 2009, 12:52:54 AM

    FWIW, ran this puppy Friday night....
    Put in a brand new 16gb MicroSDHC on my way out the door, got to the show, it was not seen by the unit.  At set break, tried to figure out the issue.
    Put it into 2 different cell phones, which could both see the disk and the 16gb free, back in the M10, nada, messed with it for like 20 minutes, formatted it in one of the phones, nada... put it back in the unit so I would not loose it, and it all of a sudden worked.

    Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.


     "I had a similar recognition problem with an OEM Sandisk 16GB SDHC card.  I can't remember   the  exact details, but it took about 5 minutes of messin' with the menu to get it to see the card.  Once it saw it, and formatted has not been an issue since.  I can now switch out 2, 4, or 16GB cards w/o issue."
------------------------
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 12:33:43 AM by earmonger »

Offline junkyardt

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1068
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2010, 04:44:52 PM »
apologies if these questions have been answered already, but i really don't feel like paging through 26 pages of the previous thread to find out. they are pretty specific questions anyway.

from those who have held one in hand, how tight/loose is the level knob on the PCM-M10? as a D50 owner, my main complaint with it is that the knob is very loose and can be moved around by accident too easily. has it been tightened up in the M10 or is it still very loose?

also i always felt that the level adjusting function should have been included as part of the hold feature. has that issue been fixed with the M10?

also, has anyone confirmed whether the internal memory of the M10 has sony's typical encryption or not? i once tried to retrieve a deleted recording from the internal memory of the D50 by trying to get a freeware recovery program (undelete, uneraser, etc.) to recognize it, and no program would read the disk. i found out that these same programs would in fact read the internal memory of other brands of recorders, but that sony puts some sort of encryption on their products so that only they can access it in that way (and of course they want you to mail them the recorder and charge you like $50 per retrieval.)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 06:20:37 PM by junkyardt »

Offline CatScan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2010, 08:12:34 PM »
I'd like to buy a PCM-M10, but being in Europe I see that prices in the States are much lower. Unfortunately many U.S. based companies over-charge for shipping outside of the States (or they don't offer international sales at all).
Any suggestions for a reliable dealer which offers good prices and trouble-free transactions?
Preferrably someone who also sells the PCM-M10P as the "P" (pro?) model comes in matt black (or white if you have that preferance), and not glossy black as the non-"P" comes in.

I'm also concerned about the AC adapter (charger?) that comes with the unit (but no rechargeable batteries?) -does it come with North American/Japanese prongs, or a socket for plugging an AC cable into, and is it a multi-voltage type (90-240V or similar)?

Offline tekdroid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2010, 08:24:01 PM »
from those who have held one in hand, how tight/loose is the level knob on the PCM-M10?
It is feels tighter. More importantly maybe, the diameter of the dial is smaller with less surface exposure on either side (but has improved raised ridges for grip). It is improved over the PCM-D50 but if this is a make-or-break feature, try it out before buying (if you get a chance). Otherwise, offloading the unit second-hand should be a minimal-loss type of situation.

also i always felt that the level adjusting function should have been included as part of the hold feature. has that issue been fixed with the M10?
The levels can be adjusted in HOLD and there is no menu option to lock levels.

also, has anyone confirmed whether the internal memory of the M10 has sony's typical encryption or not? i once tried to retrieve a deleted recording from the internal memory of the D50 by trying to get a freeware recovery program (undelete, uneraser, etc.) to recognize it, and no program would read the disk.

*Both internal and external storage mount as standard (FAT32) USB Mass Storage volumes.
*The files themselves have zero encryption (you can play them natively in any modern operating system, without additional hardware or software).
*Are you sure you had troubles with the PCM-D50 and not some other model? I can't guess why you had this result, except maybe that you told the programs to recover from a different file system (all this having been said, I have not run any recovery software on my units to recover accidental deletions, so perhaps others can chime in with their experience).
* Hi-MD / NetMD / SonicStage and their persistent DRM paranoia in their audio products gave Sony a bad name in audio (and ease-of-use and reliability). I am glad those days are gone with these products - thanks to much of the competition eating away at their market and them re-thinking their strategy.


Offline tekdroid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2010, 08:29:39 PM »
Any suggestions for a reliable dealer which offers good prices and trouble-free transactions?
I bought from B&H.
Preferrably someone who also sells the PCM-M10P as the "P" (pro?) model comes in matt black (or white if you have that preferance), and not glossy black as the non-"P" comes in.
This is what's confusing. The standard PCM-M10 is not glossy (at least not the GREY model which Sony calls Black). I haven't seen the PCM-M10P model anywhere. 
I'm also concerned about the AC adapter (charger?) that comes with the unit (but no rechargeable batteries?) -does it come with North American/Japanese prongs, or a socket for plugging an AC cable into, and is it a multi-voltage type (90-240V or similar)?

US-type, not multi-voltage. Get a voltage converter on ebay (cheap) with the appropriate plug to plug the voltage converter into your local power.

Offline tekdroid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 08:51:22 PM »
I had a similar recognition problem with an OEM Sandisk 16GB SDHC card.

OEM. Is this an ebay purchase?
As far as I'm aware, Sandisk don't offer bulk OEM-type cards for retail. Ebay is more-often-than-not a counterfeit paradise when it comes to memory.

I had zero issues with an 8GB genuine Sandisk I slot in a few times (to test reliability of detecting the thing); worked every time.

Offline pool

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 169
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 12:34:15 AM »
Has anyone came across a good priced unit in Europe please??

Offline earmonger

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 569
  • 20-20000 Hz
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 12:37:34 AM »
The 16GB OEM was from a previous post--and that poster got it to work, counterfeit or not. I'm looking for anyone who has had the problem and solved it, because there's nothing in the Sony manual about how to troubleshoot the card slot.

Amusingly, the PCM-M10 is considered "broadcast or professional" equipment by Sony--and its weekend customer support is only for consumer products. I guess radio stations all shut down on the weekends and nothing ever goes wrong. 

Offline tekdroid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 01:41:01 AM »
The 16GB OEM was from a previous post--and that poster got it to work, counterfeit or not. I'm looking for anyone who has had the problem and solved it, because there's nothing in the Sony manual about how to troubleshoot the card slot.
Detail Menu
Format the memory currently selected in “Memory” setting in the
menu, deleting all the data in the memory and resetting the folder
structure to its default status.
Execute:
“Formatting...” appears and the memory will be formatted.
Cancel*:
The memory will not be formatted.
PNotes
• Do not use your computer to format a memory card you use
with the PCM recorder. Format it with the formatting function
of the PCM recorder.
• Once the memory has been deleted, you cannot retrieve the data
that was deleted.
-------------------


On using a memory card
• When formatting (initializing) a memory
card, make sure to use the PCM recorder to
format it. Memory cards formatted with
Windows or other devices may be
recognized as incompatible media and
cannot be used with the PCM recorder.
• If you format a memory card containing
recorded data, the recorded data will be
deleted. Be careful not to delete important
data.


------------------------------

Format Error •
The PCM recorder has been formatted using a computer. You
cannot perform operations, including recording or playing,
because there is no copy of the control file required for operation.
Format the PCM recorder using the formatting function in the
menu.

--------------------------

Memory Card Error •
An error occurred while a memory card was being inserted into
the memory card slot. Remove and try inserting it again. If this
message persists, use a new memory card.

-------------------------------

A sprinkling of advice from the manual.
There is more, but it's basically the same stuff; start with a blank card with zero files on it, do not format in the computer (and format in the device itself).


Offline earmonger

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 569
  • 20-20000 Hz
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 09:37:49 AM »
Oh, never mind. Manual, p.36

I was putting it in upside-down. The label faces the back of the unit. 

Although it goes right in with the label up, like every other piece of microSD equipment I own...just...D'oh.

Well maybe this exchange will spare someone else this dopey "problem."
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 12:18:50 PM by earmonger »

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.143 seconds with 42 queries.
© 2002-2017 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF
Website Design by Foxtrot Media, Inc., a Baltimore Website Company