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Author Topic: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion  (Read 4911 times)

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Offline hieye

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New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« on: February 23, 2010, 09:23:48 PM »
Thanks to everyone who assisted on my first two posts regarding selecting st***th equipment and setting up for recording a show. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130746.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131849.15

I taped my first shows in New Orleans and now need to mix.  You can download from this link:

https://secure.logmein.com/f?VEDr5i9U-ZbIcDYz2qIBL1.YbvRdblm11POE2Wm3q2O

I would very much appreciate comments so that I can improve in the future as well as "fix" these recordings.

First taping:  Small club, we were off to the side of the musicians (approx 30 ft). Sitting down throughout.  I had sound issues discussed in this topic:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132169.0
Primary goal:  Get rid of the "pops".  Clean up? How? 

Second taping:  Really nice small venue and acoustics.  Situated about 30 ft from the stage front, my back was against a wall, the ceiling only in our location was about 10 ft (so we were kinda in a cave approx 10 ft x 15 ft).  Sitting down throughout the show.     
Primary goal:  Equalize sound throughout as I think I was fooling around with the recording levels to set near -12db.  Clean up? How? 

Third taping:  Small club.  A lot of people dancing, including us.  About 20 ft from the stage front.  This is the only recording I would consider "loud".
Primary Goal:  Clean up?  How? 

Fourth taping:  Bowling alley (huge venue).  I just set levels once and we were walking all over the place, carrying our drinks. 
Primary goal:  Clean up?  How?

Fifth taping:  Very intimate club.  About 5-10 ft from the stage at slight angle from stage front.  Sitting down throughout. 
Primary goal:  Clean up?  How?

My main goal is to equalize sound throughout the recordings as I had to set/change recording levels once the shows started.  I have to join one show which recorded in two parts (internal memory ran out and automatically went to memory card).  I want minimal cleanup, but I'm not sure where to start. 

I've read that Audacity is commonly used (for mixing) & CDWave (to split tracks).  I also have SoundForge Audio Studio 9 LE which came with the Sony PCM M10.  Which software would you recommend using?   

Please advise.  I realize this will be a bit of a learning curve.  I just want to shorten that as much as possible.  Thanks in advance!

Offline Humbug

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2010, 04:14:28 AM »
Why would you dance or walk around while recording? This is pretty much guaranteed to mess up the tape.

Have you read up about being in the sweet spot?

I have been taping for years and still use Audacity and CD Wave for 44.1kHz recordings. Very rarely Soundforge if I need to do some EQ.

You'll need to open Audacity, highlight the whole recording, and see how much you can boost it by without being over 0dB.

Next, you'll need to identify the points where you messed around with the levels. Mark these points down in a notebook. Next you will have to try and boost the levels of the individual sections so that they are all sound roughly the same. You can try and aim for the 0dB level, however can you remember how much you adjusted when recording? This is roughly how you will have to adjust in Audacity.

This is complicated, and why most people set levels once while recording and leave alone. In time you'll get familiar with your gear, and learn the levels to use for specific types of venues and bands.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 04:25:42 AM by Humbug »
UK based taper: MK4>Nbox Platinum>PCM-M10
AT853C>CA9200 / PIPsqueak>Tascam DR-2D

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Humbug66

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 05:22:21 AM »
This is complicated, and why most people set levels once while recording and leave alone. In time you'll get familiar with your gear, and learn the levels to use for specific types of venues and bands.

And if you can, wait until applause between songs to change levels (unless you are clipping, which shouldn't happen-you can set original levels conservatively with 24 bit). Makes it a lot easier to equalize levels without hearing where it was done.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline hieye

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2010, 09:51:15 AM »
Thanks all. 

1)  Can't help dancing and walking around.  Alcohol, New Orleans, Mardi Gras!   :D

2)  No:  Have not read about being in the "sweet spot".  I'll search this forum later or can you summarize?

2)  Audacity and CD Wave it is then?  I will review the software this afternoon and try to figure things out, then I'd like to post a few more questions.   

3)  I did not mess with the levels very much.  Maybe at most 1-2x at most during the recording.  However, I was not very "smooth" with the adjustment, I think I moved the levels a lot (jerky fashion) up and down to get to -12 db.  I had not memorized if clockwise or counterclockwise increased or decreased levels (I still can't remember).  Consequently, the point of adjustment will likely show significant fluctuation. 

4)  Will Audacity let me "see" where the levels were changed or will I need to "listen" and then mark down the points of change? 

5)  How might I remove the "clicks" in the first recording?  Possible?

Thank you very much for the input.  I'll play around with the software a bit and see how it goes!

Offline Humbug

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 11:00:27 AM »
Thanks all. 

1)  Can't help dancing and walking around.  Alcohol, New Orleans, Mardi Gras!   :D

Don't! The most I do at gigs is tap my feet/head, keeping mics facing forward at all times. It's been said before, but if you can't control your actions, maybe taping isn't for you.

Quote
2)  No:  Have not read about being in the "sweet spot".  I'll search this forum later or can you summarize?

Equilateral triangle with the speakers. Or where your ears tell you it sounds best (for the support, obviously). You don't want to move position once you are taping. Exception is if you find yourself in the mosh pit.

Quote
2)  Audacity and CD Wave it is then?  I will review the software this afternoon and try to figure things out, then I'd like to post a few more questions.   

3)  I did not mess with the levels very much.  Maybe at most 1-2x at most during the recording.  However, I was not very "smooth" with the adjustment, I think I moved the levels a lot (jerky fashion) up and down to get to -12 db.  I had not memorized if clockwise or counterclockwise increased or decreased levels (I still can't remember).  Consequently, the point of adjustment will likely show significant fluctuation. 

4)  Will Audacity let me "see" where the levels were changed or will I need to "listen" and then mark down the points of change? 

You should see some change, but your ears may be of help too.

Quote
5)  How might I remove the "clicks" in the first recording?  Possible?

Thank you very much for the input.  I'll play around with the software a bit and see how it goes!

You can reduce these by zooming in and reducing the volume at these points.
UK based taper: MK4>Nbox Platinum>PCM-M10
AT853C>CA9200 / PIPsqueak>Tascam DR-2D

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Humbug66

Offline acidjack

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 11:59:27 AM »
General rule: I don't think you can really "fix" a bad recording.  You can fix a flaw here and there, you can EQ out too much bass/bring up treble, but if your fundamentals (equipment/placement/user error) are bad, there is not much you can do.

That said, a few short comments.
First taping:  Small club, we were off to the side of the musicians (approx 30 ft). Sitting down throughout.  I had sound issues discussed in this topic:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132169.0
Primary goal:  Get rid of the "pops".  Clean up? How?
I assume people responded in the other topic.  If those pops are that frequent, I don't think there is much you can do.  If it's just once or twice in the recording, use the pencil tool in audacity. It looks like a pencil button on-screen. You zoom in close enough that there are dots for individual samples, and you can then reduce the volume of those samples.  I note that this is very time consuming.

Also, from the sound of it, your placement was not great.
Quote

Second taping:  Really nice small venue and acoustics.  Situated about 30 ft from the stage front, my back was against a wall, the ceiling only in our location was about 10 ft (so we were kinda in a cave approx 10 ft x 15 ft).  Sitting down throughout the show.     
Primary goal:  Equalize sound throughout as I think I was fooling around with the recording levels to set near -12db.  Clean up? How? 
This sounds pretty good to me.

Quote

Third taping:  Small club.  A lot of people dancing, including us.  About 20 ft from the stage front.  This is the only recording I would consider "loud".
Primary Goal:  Clean up?  How? 

Your placement in the room seems to be really bad.  As others already responded, you simply cannot move while taping with mics mounted to you. Your choices are (i) don't tape, (ii) tape with mics mounted to you and face the sound source(!) and don't move or (iii) get a mic stand and run open.  In my opinion, it's not even worth bothering to record something in the manner you describe, at least not for public consumption.

Quote
Fourth taping:  Bowling alley (huge venue).  I just set levels once and we were walking all over the place, carrying our drinks. 
Primary goal:  Clean up?  How?
Again, sounds like you should have left the gear at home.  Also, someone is speaking almost directly into the microphones during this sample-- kind of a big no-no.  If you enjoy listening to something like this for personal use, then by all means, do what makes you happy, but I wouldn't really call that "taping" and certainly not something that you can "clean up" using computer means. 

Quote
Fifth taping:  Very intimate club.  About 5-10 ft from the stage at slight angle from stage front.  Sitting down throughout. 
Primary goal:  Clean up?  How?
Again, seems OK, except I would have tried to be more in the center and face the sound source.

Quote

My main goal is to equalize sound throughout the recordings as I had to set/change recording levels once the shows started.  I have to join one show which recorded in two parts (internal memory ran out and automatically went to memory card).  I want minimal cleanup, but I'm not sure where to start. 
The "Amplify" tool in audacity is your friend. You can select the portion you wish to amplify. Amplify everything to -0.1.  If you changed levels, then amplify portions where the levels were set separately. 

If you have SoundForge for free, that is a great program too. I don't know much about it, but I know many are satisfied with it.

Again, though, the biggest flaws in these recordings all have to do with things computers cannot fix - user decisions and placement decisions.  The mics themselves seem to have done a fine job of capturing what was going on. 

Just my $.02
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline hieye

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010, 11:16:51 AM »
Thank you all for the responses! 

Comments and questions: 

Recordings are mainly for my personal use.  Sometimes enjoying the moment takes priority over the taping (at least for me).  I'll be taping the Kokua Fest (Jack Johnson and guests) in April.  I'll try and do a good job there.  Open taping, no stands allowed.

I had a chance to briefly go over Audacity and installed the Lame MP3 encoder.  My goal is to rip to MP3 for my iPod eventually.  Yes, if I ever post for public consumption, I will never post as MP3s.   

Please see the screenshot from Audacity of the fifth taping:

https://secure.logmein.com/f?H9rY3rtBATMBr9mQkC007w2mKBOhL1Pdx.wYHVi3T4f

I had levels set when we walked into the venue.  About 17 minutes in, I adjusted recording levels.  What would you do in Audacity to fix?  This is what typically happened in the shows I taped.  I need to find the tutorial in Audacity as well to adjust/amplify levels in certain sections.  What technical term would I search under? 

I did brief search but could not find how to join to files?  My second taping was in two parts (because the internal memory was full).

Why should I bother with CD Wave?  I read that Audacity can split files into separate tracks? 

Finally (very basic question), I played around for a bit in Audacity but could not figure out how to fast forward to various areas of the .wav file?  Is that possible? 

I'll likely investigate further this afternoon when I have some time.  I'd appreciate any other comments to help me along.  Thank you!

Offline Humbug

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010, 02:01:29 PM »
Please see the screenshot from Audacity of the fifth taping:

https://secure.logmein.com/f?H9rY3rtBATMBr9mQkC007w2mKBOhL1Pdx.wYHVi3T4f

I had levels set when we walked into the venue.  About 17 minutes in, I adjusted recording levels.  What would you do in Audacity to fix?  This is what typically happened in the shows I taped.  I need to find the tutorial in Audacity as well to adjust/amplify levels in certain sections.  What technical term would I search under? 

You can write off the first 17 minutes; very overloaded. Try and reduce volume in this section, and boost the rest to try and match.

Quote
I did brief search but could not find how to join to files?  My second taping was in two parts (because the internal memory was full).

Probably a better way, but open both files in Audacity, copy and paste (or cut and paste) the second recording to the end of the first.

Quote
Why should I bother with CD Wave?  I read that Audacity can split files into separate tracks? 

Because it splits it better without clicks.

Quote
Finally (very basic question), I played around for a bit in Audacity but could not figure out how to fast forward to various areas of the .wav file?  Is that possible? 

I'll likely investigate further this afternoon when I have some time.  I'd appreciate any other comments to help me along.  Thank you!

Fit project in window (Magnifying glass to right), place the cursor in the place you want to play, play (green arrow). Stop, move cursor, play.
UK based taper: MK4>Nbox Platinum>PCM-M10
AT853C>CA9200 / PIPsqueak>Tascam DR-2D

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Humbug66

Offline acidjack

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010, 03:33:47 PM »
Audacity can properly split without SBEs - you just need to set the "FRAMES" (I think) to "CDDA Frames:75fps" or something like that. It will export properly then.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline hieye

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010, 03:48:02 PM »
Please see the screenshot from Audacity of the fifth taping:

https://secure.logmein.com/f?H9rY3rtBATMBr9mQkC007w2mKBOhL1Pdx.wYHVi3T4f

I had levels set when we walked into the venue.  About 17 minutes in, I adjusted recording levels.  What would you do in Audacity to fix?  This is what typically happened in the shows I taped.  I need to find the tutorial in Audacity as well to adjust/amplify levels in certain sections.  What technical term would I search under? 

Quote
You can write off the first 17 minutes; very overloaded. Try and reduce volume in this section, and boost the rest to try and match.

Is there an easy way to select ALL of the music and set everything selected to the same volume level?  That would be such a nice feature? 

Per discussion in this post, I want to set volume levels to 0 to -0.1?  How would I do that in this example?

Thank you very much for the input.

Offline acidjack

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2010, 04:32:19 PM »
^^ I recommend that you read this in its entirety, or you are going to have a LOT of questions... http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Main_Page

Some people use "Normalize."  I prefer "Amplify" as I believe Normalize squashes frequencies sometimes.  Select all the music (click anywhere in the gray area to the left of the waveform), then go to EFFECT>Amplify.  Then set it to -0.1.  That's it!
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline hieye

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Re: New Taper: Part 3: Post Recording Manipulation and Conversion
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2010, 02:21:22 AM »
^^ I recommend that you read this in its entirety, or you are going to have a LOT of questions... http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Main_Page

Some people use "Normalize."  I prefer "Amplify" as I believe Normalize squashes frequencies sometimes.  Select all the music (click anywhere in the gray area to the left of the waveform), then go to EFFECT>Amplify.  Then set it to -0.1.  That's it!

Thanks for the input. 

I gotta say though that the Audacity Wiki and help sections are NOT very helpful. 

Even in this post there are two opinions regarding how to set everything to the same volume level (as I needed to set recording levels during the show).   

I think I really need to play a bit with the Audacity settings, etc.  I think a wiki or sticky in the taperssection forum would be very useful for those new to taping.   

I'm very short on free time at the moment, however I would appreciate comments on specific questions I'm sure to have.  Thanks all!

 

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