Topic: PT: 3 - New Marantz PMD661

[JasonSobel]

does anyone know what the max input when running Line-In?  I'm curious about both the XLR line-ins and the 1/8" line-in2 jack.
Instead of my usual CK930 > PMD-661 combo, for the upcoming Worcester Phish shows, I'm going to borrow a Sonosax SX-M2, and then run line-in on the Sonosax.
The max output from the XLR outputs of the Sonosax is +20dBu.
The output on the 1/8" output on the Sonosax is 6dB lower, for a max of +14dBu.

The official specs for the PMD-661 say that the input sensitivity is 0dBu for the XLR's line, and 500mV(rms) for the 1/8" line-in2 (equal to -3.8dBu).  But I don't think those are the max levels.  Does anyone know what the actual max input levels are when running line-in?

The Marantz tech support told me that the max input levels are not published and therefore, they don't know.  I asked them to check with the engineers because someone at Marantz has to know, right?  They told me that it might take more than a week to hear back from the engineers, and the Phish shows are next week.  So I need to know before then.

Also, when running line-in, do I need to worry about keeping the level knob above 4-5?  When running mic in, the internal pre-amp will overload (even though the digital levels are less than 0dBFS) if the knob is below 4-5.  Is this also an issue when running Line-In?  Or am I OK to run below there, because the internal mic pre-amp is being bypassed?

[JasonSobel]

ok, so I've got just about all of my questions answered.  big thanks to Doug Oade for the quick email replies.  He's much more helpful than the Marantz tech support.

My first set of questions to Doug was what the max input level was for the line-in inputs, and whether or not I needed to worry about keeping the PMD-661 level knob above 4 when running Line-in...

I've never measured the input overload point of the 661 XLR line in but it calculates to about +15dBU. The Concert MOD does not alter this. The record level control is a good indicator of mic preamp clipping, it tends to be around 4 for all decks when the record level control does not affect the input gain. If you go 1/8" in then you'll have more headroom, I favor this input for that reason. I hope this helps....Doug

I then asked him a little bit more about the XLR line-in vs. the 1/8" line-in2 jack

In general, I prefer the XLR connections because it is a more robust connection, it locks, and in general is a more reliable connection compared to an 1/8" connector.  but you say that I'll have more headroom with the 1/8" line-in?  Is that because the 1/8" input can actually handle a louder input?  or just because the 1/8" output on the Sonosax is 6dB lower, so I'd therefore have 6dB more headroom?
 
Also, I thought your concert mod only affected the XLR inputs, and not the 1/8" line-in, is that correct?  If so, if I used the 1/8" line-in, it was essentially be the same as running a stock deck with the 1/8" line-in.  That isn't the end of the world, but if it's possible to run the signal through the upgraded signal path, I would think that that is preferable, yes?

and here was Doug's last response:

you are correct, the 1/8" is not upgraded while the XLR is. However, it's the device that applies gain that most significantly affects signal quality so it's going to be less dramatic a difference than if you are using the 661 for gain. Yes, the minijack and XLR will overload at about the same level. The limitation is the internal voltages for the audio circuit, not the analog parts. Since you were concerned about overload, I suggested the use of the minijack input. Based on calculations, you won't be able to overload it and an overload is very easy to hear ! As long as you know you won't overload the 661 xlr input, they would be the best choice...Doug

to sum up:

• the XLR line-in has a max input of approx. +15dBu
• the 1/8" line-in2 overloads at about the same level as the XLR line-in
• the 1/8" line-in2 is not upgraded with the Oade Concert mod (though we knew this already)
• the oade mods don't have as much of a sonic impact when running line-in, relative to running mic-in (again, I think we knew that)
• Because the XLR line-ins can handle approx. +15dBu, it should be no problem to run XLR's from a Sonosax SX-M2, though I'd have more headroom if I ran 1/8" out from the Sonosax to the 1/8" line-in2 input on the PMD-661, because the 1/8" output on the Sonosax is 6dB lower.

While it would be nice to have a little more headroom, I much prefer balanced XLR inputs over 1/8" jacks.  XLR is just more secure, it locks, and is a more reliable connection.  I'll probably use the XLR outs the first night, and unless I run into major issues, do the same thing the 2nd night.

as always, any other thoughts, comments, or input is welcome.

[su6oxone]

as always, any other thoughts, comments, or input is welcome.

Well done, thanks for getting and sharing this useful info.  It's good to know just how unlikely you are to overload the 661 with either the XLR or 1/8" line inputs. 

Anyone have any guesses as to when the 661's successor will come out?  I don't know how long the 660 was out before the 661 replaced it or how long a generation will typically last, but I think the 661 has now been out maybe 1 1/2 years so I'm hoping it'll be in the next year or so.  I really like the 661 but a 662 that's smaller and has better battery life and a lower noise, etc., would be pretty great. 

[DigiGal]

Anyone have any guesses as to when the 661's successor will come out?  I don't know how long the 660 was out before the 661 replaced it or how long a generation will typically last, but I think the 661 has now been out maybe 1 1/2 years so I'm hoping it'll be in the next year or so.  I really like the 661 but a 662 that's smaller and has better battery life and a lower noise, etc., would be pretty great.

No idea but the PMD660 is still available, the PMD661 didn't technically replace it, they coexist. 

For a smaller unit Marantz offers the PMD620 though.  http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4313&CatID=19&SubCatID=188

[DigiGal]

ok, so I've got just about all of my questions answered.  big thanks to Doug Oade for the quick email replies.  He's much more helpful than the Marantz tech support.


as always, any other thoughts, comments, or input is welcome.

Thanks for sharing the info from Doug.

Was the unity gain settings/levels for the PMD661 suggested?   I haven't seen actual unity gain info listed for the PMD661 anywhere.  This would be good reference info if anyone knows.   

[JasonSobel]

ok, so I've got just about all of my questions answered.  big thanks to Doug Oade for the quick email replies.  He's much more helpful than the Marantz tech support.


as always, any other thoughts, comments, or input is welcome.

Thanks for sharing the info from Doug.

Was the unity gain settings/levels for the PMD661 suggested?   I haven't seen actual unity gain info listed for the PMD661 anywhere.  This would be good reference info if anyone knows.

no, I didn't ask about unity gain and Doug didn't say anything about it (I basically posted everything from our email exchange).

I have now done a short little home test with the beyerdynamic CK930 > Sonosax SX-M2 > PMD-661 in front of my stereo.
obviously, it's not quite a "real world" test, because the sound from my stereo was no where near concert SPL's.  (even if my stereo could reproduce sound that loud, which it can't, I couldn't play it that loud with my 10 month old baby sleeping upstairs).

anyway, I ran XLR line-in to the PMD-661, and I had the PMD-661 on the -18 dB gain setting.
I ran the Sonosax in the high gain range (at a concert, I'm sure I'd be running it in the low gain range).
I generated a pure sine wave and saved the WAV file and played that back through my stereo on repeat.  That way, my source would be a constant level and I could easily play around with the level knobs on the Sonosax and the PMD-661.
The Sonosax outputs a max of +20dBu (over the balanced outputs).  The "over" lights on the Sonosax come on 6dB before the pre-amp overloads, so it outputs +14dBu when the "over" lights come on.
I gave the Sonosax enough gain such that the over lights were just barely on the whole time, so the outputs were in the +14 to +15 dBu range.
I then set then set the PMD-661 to peak around -2 or -3dB, and the knob was set around 6 at this point.

So, based on my test, I'm confident that the Sonosax SX-M2 > PMD-661 combo will work just fine.  If I just leave the PMD-661 knob around 6, and then set my levels using the knobs the Sonosax, I should peak around -2dBFS on the PMD-661 at just about the same time as the "clip" lights come on on the Sonosax.  At this point, I know that I'll be close to 0dBFS, but I won't be digitally clipping.  I'll know that the Sonosax isn't being overloaded, because I still have 6dB of headroom there.  and I know that the Marantz will be able to handle the signal just fine with no distortion at all.  Also, I get to use the XLR line-in, which I'm much more comfortable with compared to using the 1/8" line-in2 jack (just because I like XLR's better).

[su6oxone]

No idea but the PMD660 is still available, the PMD661 didn't technically replace it, they coexist. 

True, I noticed that the 660 is still listed on the Marantz website also, but I assume that it's due to there still being a lot of unsold 660s out there rather than the 660 being an active product that is still being made now (I'd be really surprised if Marantz is still manufacturing both the 660 and 661).

For a smaller unit Marantz offers the PMD620 though.  http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4313&CatID=19&SubCatID=188

Yep, but it doesn't have XLR inputs w/phantom though (e.g. not an "all-in-one"). 

Can't wait for the next generation to come out (or for Sony to make a comparable device to the 661)...

[DigiGal]

No idea but the PMD660 is still available, the PMD661 didn't technically replace it, they coexist. 

True, I noticed that the 660 is still listed on the Marantz website also, but I assume that it's due to there still being a lot of unsold 660s out there rather than the 660 being an active product that is still being made now (I'd be really surprised if Marantz is still manufacturing both the 660 and 661).

That makes sense, who would really buy a PMD660 when you could get the PMD661 for roughly $50 more.  So in that regard it is not surprising that almost 2 years later they still have those PMD660's.  At some point they should just cut their losses on them, seems very silly to continue to offering 660's today without a drastic price reduction on them.

I remember reading some Marantz sales hype back when the PMD661 was initially released stating that they didn't intend for it to replace the PMD660.  Afraid of the Osbourne Effect is more appropriate though.

[fmaderjr]

Thanks for sharing the info from Doug.

Was the unity gain settings/levels for the PMD661 suggested?   I haven't seen actual unity gain info listed for the PMD661 anywhere.  This would be good reference info if anyone knows.

I can't find proof of it by searching, but I'm sure someone once posted that Doug Oade told them that the unity gain setting on the PMD661 is 7. I made a point of making a note of it on my pdf of the 661 manual when I read that.

[MBHOTAPER]

Thanks for sharing the info from Doug.

Was the unity gain settings/levels for the PMD661 suggested?   I haven't seen actual unity gain info listed for the PMD661 anywhere.  This would be good reference info if anyone knows.

I can't find proof of it by searching, but I'm sure someone once posted that Doug Oade told them that the unity gain setting on the PMD661 is 7. I made a point of making a note of it on my pdf of the 661 manual when I read that.



I read that post also. I have also read a thread that the pmd 661 ad really shines between 6 and 7. My experience w/my apogee mmp has been around 6 - 6.25 and I have had really good results so far.

[dennisrtyler]

that was me. Doug told me unity was at 7.

[JasonSobel]

here's another wrinkle in the line-in question.  Marantz Tech support finally got back to me about max input levels for the line-in's...

Hi Jason,
We were able to get a response to your inquiry.  Please see the max line input levels for the PMD661 below.

Balanced (XLR) Line In:
1.65 Vrms
6.57dBu

Unbalanced (Line 2) In:
1.98 Vrms
8.15dBu
 

TECHNICAL SUPPORT
D&M Professional
1100 Maplewood Drive
Itasca, IL 60143

this info from Marantz is obviously a lot different from the approx +15dBu that Doug told me.  Frankly, I don't know what to make of Marantz's reply.  I just ran the Sonosax > PMD-661 oade concert mod (XLR line-in) for the past two nights of Phish.  I had the PMD-661 level knob at 7.  the Sonosax outputs a max of +20dBu, though I didn't come close to that, because the clip light on the Sonosax never came on (it comes on at +14dBu).  Even so, with the amount of gain I had on the Sonosax, I know that the output level must have been higher than +6.57dBu.  but the recordings came out beautifully, no distortion at all.  So I don't know where Marantz got those numbers, but I don't believe them.

any other thoughts?

[datbrad]

here's another wrinkle in the line-in question.  Marantz Tech support finally got back to me about max input levels for the line-in's...

Hi Jason,
We were able to get a response to your inquiry.  Please see the max line input levels for the PMD661 below.

Balanced (XLR) Line In:
1.65 Vrms
6.57dBu

Unbalanced (Line 2) In:
1.98 Vrms
8.15dBu
 

TECHNICAL SUPPORT
D&M Professional
1100 Maplewood Drive
Itasca, IL 60143

this info from Marantz is obviously a lot different from the approx +15dBu that Doug told me.  Frankly, I don't know what to make of Marantz's reply.  I just ran the Sonosax > PMD-661 oade concert mod (XLR line-in) for the past two nights of Phish.  I had the PMD-661 level knob at 7.  the Sonosax outputs a max of +20dBu, though I didn't come close to that, because the clip light on the Sonosax never came on (it comes on at +14dBu).  Even so, with the amount of gain I had on the Sonosax, I know that the output level must have been higher than +6.57dBu.  but the recordings came out beautifully, no distortion at all.  So I don't know where Marantz got those numbers, but I don't believe them.

any other thoughts?

 

Doug told me the concert and warm mod increased the headroom on the XLR for both mic and line in. Wonder if that is the difference.

[DigiGal]

What did the fish say when it hit the wall?  --> [Dam ! ! !] 

Well I flew the BSC1's tonight and experienced the brick walling that other people have encountered and my recording is completely shot.

Q: Can anyone running BSC1's with the 661 recommend where to set the [Mic Atten.] and approx record level for a show running around 110db?

[fmaderjr]

Well I flew the BSC1's tonight and experienced the brick walling that other people have encountered and my recording is completely shot.

Q: Can anyone running BSC1's with the 661 recommend where to set the [Mic Atten.] and approx record level for a show running around 110db?

You probably should set the attenuation at -18 for all reasonably loud shows unless you find you can't get adequate levels that way.

Whatever mics you are running and whatever attenuation setting you choose, if you have to turn the 661's record level below a certain point to keep the meters from going over 0 dB, you are going to get brick walling. Someone previously posted that point is 4/10 on the record level, although it seems to be about 4.5 on my Oade Ambient Modded 661. There is a point like this on most recorders we use, but it often is lower than 40% of the level control (The M10 is perhaps the best, having to go below 1/10 to get the meters under 0 dB to cause brick walling).

If you have the record level at 4.5/10 or above to be conservative and the meters are staying under 0 dB I'm pretty sure you won't get brick walling. I would always start with the -18 dB attenuation (which actually is not attenuating but is not boosting the signal) if the show will be fairly loud and only consider raising it only if you are getting inadequate levels. If the mics are so sensitive that you need to turn the 661's levels below the point at which it will brick wall (with the attenuation at -18 db) to keep the meters under 0 dB, you will need to use external attenuators.

I'm not at all technically minded, but I think you can test the point at which the machine will brickwall by setting the input to 4/10 and talking very loudly into your mics. If you can get the levels to go over 0 dB, then the recorder won't brickwall at 4/10. If the levels peak at say -6 dB no matter how loud you talk into them, then it is possible to get brick walling at the 4/10 setting. Doing this on my Oade modded 661, it looks like I can get brick walling at 4/10, but not at 4.5/10 or above.