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Author Topic: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries  (Read 3641 times)

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kirk97132

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Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« on: October 29, 2010, 03:51:33 PM »
Starting a new topic which is a spin off of a discussion in the USBPre-2 thread in preamps.  So, the goal was to use a set of 9 volt DVD batteries to power the AD1K which needs 12 volts.  After checking with Apogee tech the unit requires a minimum of 11.5 volts.  I planned on running the batteries in series and stepping down the voltage.  After getting the right Voltage Regulator IC that would have an output voltage of 12 volts & 2 amps I got it all wired up.  Checked voltage at the plug with no load and was at 12.01 volts.  Looking good so far.  the original idead was to install this in a switchcraft XLR4 housing (it was long enough to fit everything) and the housing would act as the heat sink.  At this point things start going south.   First I need a much firmer attachment than having the VR housing laying against the body of the XLR housing.  OK, make it a much more solid attachment.  STILL having a shutdown due to overheating.  OK, redo everything, set it up in a project box with a real heat sink...CLICK, shutdown due to heat.  OK HOLY CRAP, I really had under estimated the size of the heat sink required.  Now at this point I am many hours into a project that I thought would take two houra tops.   I am also determined to make this thing work now come hell or high water.  My thinking was how hard can it be?  More on that later.....So I fart around and keep adding to the heat sink until finally....SUCCESS.  Or at least sort of....
So in summary: 
You can get two dvd batteries to work in series if they are run into a voltage regulator.  From what I understand you cannot just use them in series or you trip the protection circuit. 

The heat sink required to step down 18 volts to 6 volts is HUGE!!!  Literally needed an aluminum heat sink almost 1/4 think and roughly 1.5" X 1.5" with around 10 ribs on it.  Even then the whole heat sink will get almost too hot to touch.

With two fully charged DVD batteries a 45 minute run time ran them down from all three lights lit to only one light left.  this was the most disappointing part, I had not expected the drain to be so high. 

Using a voltage regulator will work in theory but in reality it is not worth it.  There are probably ways to solve the voltage to heat issue like bleeding off some of the voltage with resistors first but that just means more work and more math to figure things out.  And trying to pull it down a whole 6 volts from the original voltage creates more heat than you would ever expect that little chip to be able to produce.  IN hindsight here are what I think are the ONLY two options for battery power.  Get one of the big ass 12 volt Li-ion batteries like the tekkon style.  This would require some minor wiring to adapt it to your existing battery set up.  Unless you don't have one already then it starts getting a little harder with the dsub style plug reguired.  OR replace the worn out SLAs that you have.  Those SLA's can be had to about $16 or $17 and with a little effort you can remove the top housing that the Eco charge units have and still be able to use the chargers and xlr4 set up. 

stevetoney

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 04:11:35 PM »
...and with a little effort you can remove the top housing that the Eco charge units have and still be able to use the chargers and xlr4 set up.

Hadn't thought about that.  Good idea!  I've got three or four dead eco-charge batteries laying around.  Thanks!

Also thanks for the rundown about your efforts.  Sorry it didn't work out.

kirk97132

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 04:25:58 PM »
The Eco charge tops, besides sort of snapping into place, also have been secured with silacone so you need to gently pry the case loose all the way around which helps break the seal.  Then pry out to get it around the area where is clips into AND keep steady pressure until you feel the silacone start to come loose.  I forget the exact battery number you want but can get it for you if you need it.  I'd also look locally to buy the battery.  shipping them is where you get killed.  Anyplace that sells batteries for UPS systems should be able to get you one.  Then ya just plug the "lid" in and snap it on!

Offline H₂O

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 07:54:22 PM »
I can build you a High efficency dc-dc converter to go from 18V down to 6.5V or lower.  No heat sync required!


Let me know if you are interested.



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Offline ero3030

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 10:07:36 PM »
my last battery pack used a 9v dvd battery and a 7.2v R/C battery.  ran the ad1k for almost 3hrs.  ran 2 7.2v r/c batts butt only got about 1hr 45 mins.  i think they make 7.2v dvd batteries.  if they can be found, i think it would run the unit nice.  ed
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kirk97132

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2010, 12:54:47 AM »
I can build you a High efficency dc-dc converter to go from 18V down to 6.5V or lower.  No heat sync required!


Let me know if you are interested.

Well, I am interested in an idea like that.  How would you build it?  I'm no EE so maybe I just went about this the wrong way?  I'm wondering if it is something I could do myself?  Feel free to drop me a PM.  Thanks, Kirk

stevetoney

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2010, 06:40:55 PM »

I don't want to minimize the efforts being made to put together a workable solution, but if you have to go through design and expense to put two li-ion or ni-mh batteries together that will work, and it requires heat dissipation (so you'll probably want to keep the battery outside your bag to prevent it from potentially damaging your gear), is it worth it just to avoid carrying around a couple extra pounds of lead?  Just saying' because I've seen people hauling a bunch of gear to the show, but then they do anything and/or pay a bunch to avoid using SLAs...which sometimes seems almost like SLA phobia :) which I don't really understand. 

That said, I realize that your initial project was something you thought would be quick and easy...so just saying that if this gets overly complicated, perhaps there's a point where the fallback plan of using a smallish 12V SLA might make more sense.

kirk97132

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2010, 03:52:02 PM »
Yeah I totally agree that there is a phobia about the SLA's and I guess everyone thinks that there are only the big ass sla and don't realize that they come in a lot of sizes. Or maybe most people want it to just plug in off the shelf so the other sizes are not an option? 

Originally it was supposed to be an hour long $10 project.  Then it turned into the tunnel vision ...I KNOW I CAN DO THIS type of thing.   All to avoid buying a battery.  But, and this is for me, I'd buy a battery that supplies 12v AND 5v due to the fact I want to power devices that require those voltages.  The Li-Ion with multiple outputs is too perfect a fit.  And then there is the added benefit of less weight. 

IF I was ONLY looking to replace the battery power supply to an AD1K I would not hesitate and replace the SLA's with the same ones, transfer the Eco charge top setup and be off to the races. 

Offline oleg

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2010, 12:47:48 PM »
http://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A00XK8/Globalmediapro-Li65N-Lithium-ion-Battery-65WH/
i use these to power  almost everything , aditional single charger is 50 bucks
or use one like that
http://www.sales-battery.com/External_laptop_battery.html
suply 16 and 5 v
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kirk97132

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 07:44:41 PM »
Oleg, Thanks for the links but external laptop batteries 16v is too much for the apogee, it requires between +11.5 to +15 Volts DC power.  The Globalmedia pro battery you linked to only has contacts and would require a lot of work to be able to fit it to any type of gear which does not accept that style of battery pack.  The additional battery charger required also drives up the cost  to about $150 US.  At that price I could get 3 of the 12/9/5 volt Li-ion batteries that include chargers.  Or buy a Tekkon for just a little less which also does 12/9/5 volts.

Offline oleg

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2010, 06:33:57 AM »
Oleg, Thanks for the links but external laptop batteries 16v is too much for the apogee, it requires between +11.5 to +15 Volts DC power.  The Globalmedia pro battery you linked to only has contacts and would require a lot of work to be able to fit it to any type of gear which does not accept that style of battery pack.  The additional battery charger required also drives up the cost  to about $150 US.  At that price I could get 3 of the 12/9/5 volt Li-ion batteries that include chargers.  Or buy a Tekkon for just a little less which also does 12/9/5 volts.
the batteries you are talking are  3 cell which are 12.4 max at maximum charge and go down  to 10.6 to get the maximum capacity , if your preamp need at least 11.5 , i will avoid it as from the fire :-) as you will get about 50 % of capacity before the preamp will start acting in normal way . not everything cheap is suitable , other hand if you where running  SD  or  SONOSAX  that problem wasnt existed .. better check with apology if  it can handle  16v , what might be true as specification usually have 10%  margin  for each side for safety reasons 
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kirk97132

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 10:49:41 AM »
The verbatim quote from Apogee tech support was 11.5 to 15 volts well regulated.   

Oleg,  why do you always feel a need to cite SD gear, or [insert name of any other gear] when that is not even a remote part of the discussion?  Who fucking cares?  I sure don't.  If I was running some other gear, what then I'd be more like you?  But really how about for once just staying on topic?  If you don't like the gear I'm using don't say anything. I don't want your opinion and I did not ask for your opinion, keep it yourself.  I don't really care what you have to say.

The whole reason for this thread was to share my experiences with trying to use batteries in series that I already owned.  I did not ask for any other options.  And even at that, the ones you provided are completely useless in relation to this thread.  The actually reality of the situation is that IF I were to buy batteries, I would buy direct replacements for the SLA's that would allow me to continue using the Eco charge setup.  The cost of those batteries is about $16 US each.  That is far less costly than any of the other alternative battery solutions presented and offers longer battery life too. 

« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 11:25:52 AM by kirkd »

Offline oleg

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 01:08:02 PM »
who give a shit  what are you running or sound devices gear  , i just gave you an example for something that would work with  these  40 bucks Chinese  batteries you pointed about , gear  that have much grater input dc tolerance .
and  gave you the  reason why not to use it with your preamp  as you can find your self working in the aria in which your Apogee will start chocking  since  the input voltage is bellow what it needed .

about sla batteries , it is the worse for cold weather as you will loose allot of capacity if you use it outside and if you will be with small capacity one  and load allot  you may find you under 11,5v as the voltage ripple is very small and under load  the voltage drops drastically. not to mention the f,,, weight you need to carry, which is 4-5 time more for same capacity against li-ion .

but you are all know guy , you probably know all that .
oleg kaizerman(gebe)hollyland
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schoepses, gefells, sankens, sennheisers....all kind of shit ....ends with deva 16  fusion ,zfr,788, 744, hhb
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kirk97132

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Re: Power Apogee AD-1000 w/ 9 volt dvd batteries
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 01:39:01 PM »
more misinformation...unless you cite "a lot" as meaning losing 20%.  Which is the amount of capacity you have at Zero Celsius on a lead acid battery. 
http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Batteries/BatteriesBody.html

And I actually cited two Li-ion batteries for examples.  If you read it correctly. 

And actually you have no idea what I know or do not know.  Let it go dude
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 01:41:42 PM by kirkd »

 

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