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Author Topic: Naiant Littlebox questions???  (Read 7712 times)

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Offline F.O.Bean

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Naiant Littlebox questions???
« on: January 17, 2011, 06:05:19 PM »
Ummm, I am a newbie when it comes to transformers. With the lilbox, it has the option to come w/ input and/or output transformers. I am def getting input tformers, because they clean the signal and add gain, correct ??? What do the output tformers do ???

And what does the 'accessory amplifier stage' do or mean ??? And what does Jpon mean by having a custom panel design ??? Just the way things are configured on the front panel ???

TIA,
Bean
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
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Offline rjp

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 12:44:56 AM »
Output transformers do a couple of things: they electrically isolate the preamp output from the next recording stage, and, when driven at a high enough level, they saturate magnetically and distort the signal (add "color" to the sound) in a way that some people find pleasing.

While input transformers could theoretically saturate, in practice they're driven at much lower levels in a microphone application, and are thus unlikely to add significant distortion.

The accessory amplifier stage could be set up as a headphone amp for monitoring, or as a gain stage for the input. Either usage means extra current drain, though, while input transformers don't require any extra current.

Custom panels are needed when you start adding extra toggle switches (such as transformer bypass) or unusual jack combinations (such as mini-XLR inputs on the front panel). IMO, if you're using input transformers, a bypass switch is nice to have, in case you happen to be at a very loud show and/or are running hot mics.

Note also that the input transformer has no effect on the unbalanced PIP input; it is only a factor on the balanced XLR inputs.
Mics: AKG Perception 170, Naiant X-X, Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2
Preamps: Naiant Littlebox
Recorders: Olympus LS-10
Interfaces: Focusrite Saffire Pro 14, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2

Offline jbell

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 06:44:28 AM »
 

Output transformers do a couple of things: they electrically isolate the preamp output from the next recording stage, and, when driven at a high enough level, they saturate magnetically and distort the signal (add "color" to the sound) in a way that some people find pleasing.

While input transformers could theoretically saturate, in practice they're driven at much lower levels in a microphone application, and are thus unlikely to add significant distortion.

The accessory amplifier stage could be set up as a headphone amp for monitoring, or as a gain stage for the input. Either usage means extra current drain, though, while input transformers don't require any extra current.

Custom panels are needed when you start adding extra toggle switches (such as transformer bypass) or unusual jack combinations (such as mini-XLR inputs on the front panel). IMO, if you're using input transformers, a bypass switch is nice to have, in case you happen to be at a very loud show and/or are running hot mics.

Note also that the input transformer has no effect on the unbalanced PIP input; it is only a factor on the balanced XLR inputs.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 02:31:37 PM by jmbell »
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v) > Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 09:59:57 AM »
With the input transformers you have a 0-32 gain range so I don't really see the point in having a switch to turn them off.  I never had any problems with overloading even at loud shows. 

Am I remembering correctly that the input transformers that Jon uses add 10db of "free" gain? If I'm thinking of the right conversation, then if you have mics that are under 20mv/pa, I agree. Over that, I'd want a switch depending on what recorder I'm using (and it's max input signal allowance).
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline jbell

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2011, 10:11:36 AM »
They add 12db, but I was under the impression that the gain still started a zero.  Maybe I'm in the wrong.  I never even came close to having a problem with to much gain overloading the pre. 

With the input transformers you have a 0-32 gain range so I don't really see the point in having a switch to turn them off.  I never had any problems with overloading even at loud shows. 

Am I remembering correctly that the input transformers that Jon uses add 10db of "free" gain? If I'm thinking of the right conversation, then if you have mics that are under 20mv/pa, I agree. Over that, I'd want a switch depending on what recorder I'm using (and it's max input signal allowance).
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 10:15:07 AM by jmbell »
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v) > Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

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Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2011, 11:38:39 AM »
You might want to check with Jon on all of this.  On the input transformers, I think they add 12db of gain, and thus change the overall gain range from 0-32 to 12-44 (no way of not having the gain of the transformers, though he might change the gain of the following op amp gain stage to "correct" for the gain boost of the tranfo's, but I doubt it).

On the input and output transfomers, Jon has some posts here (be sure to also look down a few posts for further discussion):
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=122871.msg1656947#msg1656947

Overall, I think you're better off with output transformers for concert recording.  The input tranfos will lead to some level of bass rolloff.  At the same time, the presumably preferable coloration that transformers provide will be limited, as that results from transformer saturation, and saturation will be much lower with input tranfos since a mic signal is much lower than the line level signal coming after the preamp gain stage.  So if you're looking for additional gain and lower noise performance (neither of which really apply for concert PA recording, more like nature recording), you'd want input transformers.  If you want the euphonic transformer sound/coloration, you'd want output transformers.

I'd recommend output transformers that are switchable, so you can choose to use them or not (which is what I have on my littlebox).
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2011, 11:44:07 AM »
One more thought:

Input transformers do not "clean" the signal. The input signal is what it is.  They do provide cleaner gain (gain with less noise) than comparable gain from op amps or instrumentation amps.  But for concert PA recording, (1) you do not need that additional gain, and (2) noise performance really isn't an issue as the concert environment itself will have so much noise it will totally swamp any additional noise from the op amp gain stage inside your preamp.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline jbell

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2011, 11:46:28 AM »



You might want to check with Jon on all of this.  On the input transformers, I think they add 12db of gain, and thus change the overall gain range from 0-32 to 12-44 (no way of not having the gain of the transformers, though he might change the gain of the following op amp gain stage to "correct" for the gain boost of the tranfo's, but I doubt it).

On the input and output transfomers, Jon has some posts here (be sure to also look down a few posts for further discussion):
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=122871.msg1656947#msg1656947

Overall, I think you're better off with output transformers for concert recording.  The input tranfos will lead to some level of bass rolloff.  At the same time, the presumably preferable coloration that transformers provide will be limited, as that results from transformer saturation, and saturation will be much lower with input tranfos since a mic signal is much lower than the line level signal coming after the preamp gain stage.  So if you're looking for additional gain and lower noise performance (neither of which really apply for concert PA recording, more like nature recording), you'd want input transformers.  If you want the euphonic transformer sound/coloration, you'd want output transformers.

I'd recommend output transformers that are switchable, so you can choose to use them or not (which is what I have on my littlebox).
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 02:32:20 PM by jmbell »
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v) > Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

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Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2011, 12:01:08 PM »
I could've sworn the standard gain was 32db, so I checked the Naiant website:  it is 32db, but it also starts at 6db gain, not 0.  So the standard gain range is 6-32db, with the optional input transformers, that would be an 18-44db gain range.  Again though, check with Jon, maybe he reduces the gain from the op amp gain stage to adjust for the 12db gain from the tranfos.

Also, I don't really think the issue is overloading the input, from Naiant's published specs, even a hot mic fed into a input-tranfo littlebox at deafening concert levels will not overload. The downside from what I see is Jon's own testing that shows that "professional" mics with a 400 ohm impedance will have a 10db rolloff of 20hz bass frequencies when using input transformers.  As Jon notes, this will be somewhat less for more typical 250 ohm impedance mics, but still the downside of input transformers is a loss of bass.  And if you want the "transformer sound", you'd get that more from output transformers.

I'm really just parroting back what Jon has said if you dig through his posts, but the summary seems to be:  if you want high gain, low noise amplification (like for nature recording or foley effects gathering), get input transformers; if you want that transformer sound, get output transformers.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2011, 01:22:33 PM »
I stand corrected!  Thanks for the info. Jon
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v) > Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 04:25:28 PM »
Todd is correct with respect to gain, it is 18dB - 44dB with input transformers in the circuit.  Also, the bass rolloff is dependent upon the source impedance of the microphone.

The input transformer cannot "clean" noise, but it can reduce interference because it has better common-mode rejection than the amplifier itself (70dB vs. 50dB).  Still, if you need more than 50dB of common-mode rejection, you are probably in a very bad situation to begin with; unfortunately the transformers are subject to picking up low-frequency EMI even though they are shielded.  So don't use them next to a power transformer . . .

The input transformers do reduce "equivalent input noise", which is a fancy way of saying that they give you mostly noise-free gain, such that the input signal gets louder before it gets mixed with the amplifier's noise.

I generally would not recommend input transformers for loud concert recording: -40dBV/Pa +(114dBSSPL - 94dBSPL) + 18dB gain = -2dBV, that's an average level though, peaks in program material could be 15dB or even 20dB higher.  That's still within littlebox's headroom, but you would have to check your recorder's spec.

John, so what would you suggest in me doing for loud concert recordings ??? I would like BOTH input and output tformers, but if you think I should just get output tformers then I'll take your word for it.

All I want out of this preamp is a nice clean sound but WITH color so I have a diff flavor then just MBHO>722. I am mainly using it at indoor venues, because most indoor venues have too much high-end/trebble, and I want to eliminate some of that high-end and come out w/ a somewhat more balanced sound :)
Recording Gear:
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DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

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Offline OOK

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 05:55:22 PM »
unfortunately transformers are subject to picking up low-frequency EMI even though they are shielded.  So don't use them next to a power transformer . . .


Well you answered one question for me (gain)... 

next

Is the above true of both input and output transformers ........?

Thanks OOK
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 07:09:16 PM »
unfortunately transformers are subject to picking up low-frequency EMI even though they are shielded.  So don't use them next to a power transformer . . .


Well you answered one question for me (gain)... 

next

Is the above true of both input and output transformers ........?

Thanks OOK

So what does that mean to you ???
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2011, 02:40:48 AM »
I want to eliminate some of that high-end

MBHOs are pretty bright sounding mics...putting a transformer based preamp behind them is not going to change that.
Joly Mod Oktava MK012 C,H,O > Tascam DR701d


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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2011, 10:43:12 PM »
I want to eliminate some of that high-end

MBHOs are pretty bright sounding mics...putting a transformer based preamp behind them is not going to change that.

Why not ??? Isnt that what tformers do ??? They add distortion to the low-end, correct? Which would in turn add a little lowend and take away some of the high-end emphasis
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2011, 10:44:12 PM »
I want to eliminate some of that high-end

MBHOs are pretty bright sounding mics...putting a transformer based preamp behind them is not going to change that.

What is inside your LB? Any in/out tformers ??? What do you think of it overall as a preamp? Is it highend enuf to run in front of my 722 ???
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 10:09:00 AM »
My statement may not have been entirely fair since my LB doesn't have Xfos so I can't say from experience with it specifically but in my experience with other Xfo based pres the lowend bloom doesn't happen unless you drive the levels pretty aggressively.

My impressions of the LB since using it this year

-very clean detailed sound
-neutral ....what goes in is what comes out
-the form factor/feature set can't be beat...it's really small and I haven't been able to put a dent in the internal battery even when taping at a festival

Joly Mod Oktava MK012 C,H,O > Tascam DR701d


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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 10:48:52 AM »
My statement may not have been entirely fair since my LB doesn't have Xfos so I can't say from experience with it specifically but in my experience with other Xfo based pres the lowend bloom doesn't happen unless you drive the levels pretty aggressively.

My impressions of the LB since using it this year

-very clean detailed sound
-neutral ....what goes in is what comes out
-the form factor/feature set can't be beat...it's really small and I haven't been able to put a dent in the internal battery even when taping at a festival

On the bright side (no pun intended), the 722 has a max in of +26dbu, so barring a lower max-out on the LB, bean could, in theory, blast the crap out of the output transformers to create that bloom. It would probably be gooey (and I'd really want to test using someone else's tranny box first before buying one with that purpose in mind), but it would be different.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 10:55:10 AM »
My statement may not have been entirely fair since my LB doesn't have Xfos so I can't say from experience with it specifically but in my experience with other Xfo based pres the lowend bloom doesn't happen unless you drive the levels pretty aggressively.

My impressions of the LB since using it this year

-very clean detailed sound
-neutral ....what goes in is what comes out
-the form factor/feature set can't be beat...it's really small and I haven't been able to put a dent in the internal battery even when taping at a festival

On the bright side (no pun intended), the 722 has a max in of +26dbu, so barring a lower max-out on the LB, bean could, in theory, blast the crap out of the output transformers to create that bloom. It would probably be gooey (and I'd really want to test using someone else's tranny box first before buying one with that purpose in mind), but it would be different.

I see what yinz mean ;D it will DEF add flavor
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2011, 11:06:00 AM »
My statement may not have been entirely fair since my LB doesn't have Xfos so I can't say from experience with it specifically but in my experience with other Xfo based pres the lowend bloom doesn't happen unless you drive the levels pretty aggressively.

My impressions of the LB since using it this year

-very clean detailed sound
-neutral ....what goes in is what comes out
-the form factor/feature set can't be beat...it's really small and I haven't been able to put a dent in the internal battery even when taping at a festival

On the bright side (no pun intended), the 722 has a max in of +26dbu, so barring a lower max-out on the LB, bean could, in theory, blast the crap out of the output transformers to create that bloom. It would probably be gooey (and I'd really want to test using someone else's tranny box first before buying one with that purpose in mind), but it would be different.

I see what yinz mean ;D it will DEF add flavor

yeah, no idea whether it would be good or bad, but it would be different. That's why I'd want to borrow someone else's first to try it. If you do decide that route, if I were you, I'd find out the following bits of info (Jon has them I suspect):

1) Max output rating (so you know not to run the 722 lower then that and create bad distortion on the preamp but not clip)
2) Minimum rating to start overloading/saturation of the output transformers.

Then during an opener or something you don't care about, and knowing what the max is, you can drop the gain to just under the minimum, and then each song wratchet it up about db or so until you are just under the max-output. Listen on playback and figure out if you like any of the flavor, and where it's desirability ends. Technically you could do this at home with turning P48 off and hooking up your stereo if you want to be lazy. May not be exactly the same as in the field, but it gets you a starting idea.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2011, 11:13:12 AM »
Quite honestly, you guys info is just over my head. I know how to run pores/adcs/recorders and pull great tapes, but beyond that im clueless :P
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 12:26:15 PM »
Jon has max output specs on the Naiant website for the littlebox, which is +15dBv (low voltage setting) to +19dbV for the 48v setting.  So brickwalling the 722 won't be an issue, regardless of the output of the littlebox.

IIRC, Jon has posted elsewhere that the output transformers begin to saturate at 0dbV.  I haven't noticed any low end bloom to my output tranfo littlebox.  I'm generally running it at 1:00-2:00 on the gain pots, so about +24db gain say.  With my mics, that means I am beginning to saturate the tranfos at about 106db SPL levels.  Meaning, if I'm hitting the tranfo's the way I'm hoping to, I'm getting just a bit of transformer saturation.

I do have my tranfos switchable, so someday I should try to have them engaged one set and dis-engaged the other, so I can do some sort of a comp.  I probably should do some more thorough listening. Overall though, I hear some of that typical transformer sound, but it is clean like my PSP2 sounded.  I don't hear any (or at least any significant) low end bloom like I heard with my SD MP2 preamp.  The littlebox to me is more like my PSP2, and I wouldn't expect it to really color the sound, not to the point of changing the overall sound you'll hear from your MBHOs anyway.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 12:49:21 PM »
Jon has max output specs on the Naiant website for the littlebox, which is +15dBv (low voltage setting) to +19dbV for the 48v setting.  So brickwalling the 722 won't be an issue, regardless of the output of the littlebox.

IIRC, Jon has posted elsewhere that the output transformers begin to saturate at 0dbV.  I haven't noticed any low end bloom to my output tranfo littlebox.  I'm generally running it at 1:00-2:00 on the gain pots, so about +24db gain say.  With my mics, that means I am beginning to saturate the tranfos at about 106db SPL levels.  Meaning, if I'm hitting the tranfo's the way I'm hoping to, I'm getting just a bit of transformer saturation.

I do have my tranfos switchable, so someday I should try to have them engaged one set and dis-engaged the other, so I can do some sort of a comp.  I probably should do some more thorough listening. Overall though, I hear some of that typical transformer sound, but it is clean like my PSP2 sounded.  I don't hear any (or at least any significant) low end bloom like I heard with my SD MP2 preamp.  The littlebox to me is more like my PSP2, and I wouldn't expect it to really color the sound, not to the point of changing the overall sound you'll hear from your MBHOs anyway.

Awesome post Todd. Thanks for putting it min laymans terms ;D

I REALLY LIKE your opinion that it sounds like a PSP2 as well ;D Do you have input tformers as well, or just out tformers ??? I went ahead and ordered mine WITHOUT a transformer bypass switch, because if I didnt want to run the tformers, I can just run MBHO>722 :) Cant beat the price either. With IN/OUT transformers, 20v/48v Phantom Power, RCA and 1/8" OUTS, DIN3 Connector, and a 4xAA Battery Sled, it was just over $300.00 ;D

Do you have that 4xAA battery sled Todd ??? If so, how long of a runtime do you get running +48v Phantom w/ say, 4x2300mah AA's ??? Jon quoted me 10hrs w/ alkalines, so I'm assuming I can get around 7-8 hrs w/ rechargeables. I will ONLY be running it indoors because of the high-end emphasis in ALOT of the PBurgh venues, and outdoors I'm 100% COMPLETELY HAPPY w/ my MBHO>722 rig outdoors. There is no high-end being rattled over 4 walls, and just an open atmosphere where that combo really shines. I listened to damn near ALL of my MBHO>722 recordings the last week or so, and quite honestly, I'm happy w/ 99.99% of them. I just want a diff flavor for some venues I record in :) And if it sounds like a PSP2 in your opinion, I will be a VERY HAPPY CUSTOMER 8)
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 12:51:29 PM »
Jon has max output specs on the Naiant website for the littlebox, which is +15dBv (low voltage setting) to +19dbV for the 48v setting.  So brickwalling the 722 won't be an issue, regardless of the output of the littlebox.

IIRC, Jon has posted elsewhere that the output transformers begin to saturate at 0dbV.  I haven't noticed any low end bloom to my output tranfo littlebox.  I'm generally running it at 1:00-2:00 on the gain pots, so about +24db gain say.  With my mics, that means I am beginning to saturate the tranfos at about 106db SPL levels.  Meaning, if I'm hitting the tranfo's the way I'm hoping to, I'm getting just a bit of transformer saturation.

I'll admit, I sort of knew the later in the back of my mind from reading the post and was too lazy to hunt for the source (or to see if the max outs had been stated).  ;D

I wasn't worried about the 722, just the LB, it would be bad juju to try and overload the amp and not realize it. So if it overloads at +19, then aproximately (because I'm converting db standards here), running anything lower then 0 on the 722 will cause the 722 to not clip, but amp to distort when it hit's its max.

I do have my tranfos switchable, so someday I should try to have them engaged one set and dis-engaged the other, so I can do some sort of a comp.  I probably should do some more thorough listening. Overall though, I hear some of that typical transformer sound, but it is clean like my PSP2 sounded.  I don't hear any (or at least any significant) low end bloom like I heard with my SD MP2 preamp.  The littlebox to me is more like my PSP2, and I wouldn't expect it to really color the sound, not to the point of changing the overall sound you'll hear from your MBHOs anyway.

I'd add; at least not without pushing it into major saturation territory.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2011, 01:13:56 PM »
I was planning on running the LB at its MINIMUM GAIN SETTING, at 18+db :) I have ALWAYS run my preamps at around the 20+db range, when I have a V3/V2/Sax/M148/etc. I just add the rest of the 'gain' from my ADC, which was either the V3, or my 722 :) I remember Doug Oade saying that preamps sound the best around that gain setting, thats why the m148 has a fixed gain setting of 20+db!

Dont get me wrong, when I ran mics>v3, I would run higher just because it was doing the pre/adc work, but whenever I ran a diff preamp, I ran it at 20+db, and added the rest of the gain after that. And I ALWAYS got consistent results running at 20+db :)
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2011, 01:32:21 PM »
I'm not sure I'd go so far to say the the LB sounds like the PSP2 overall. I just meant on the scale of transparent/clean sounding transformers (eg, PSP2) compared to low end bloom (SD MP2), the LB is cleaner sounding.  That said, I did do a comp at one point of my LB to the PSP2, and the LB compared favorably to the PSP2, though I preferred the PSP2.  I believe this comp was done prior to my getting output tranfos in my LB.

BTW, I've got output tranfos only, not input.  I also have a LB with an internal li-ion battery, not a 9v or AA battery sled.  I've never tested it on runtime.  I generally have been using it on the low power setting with my Milabs, and I'd expect 20+ hours on that setting.   Maybe 10-12 hours on the 48v setting, though again I've never tested it.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2011, 01:37:18 PM »
I'm not sure I'd go so far to say the the LB sounds like the PSP2 overall. I just meant on the scale of transparent/clean sounding transformers (eg, PSP2) compared to low end bloom (SD MP2), the LB is cleaner sounding.  That said, I did do a comp at one point of my LB to the PSP2, and the LB compared favorably to the PSP2, though I preferred the PSP2.  I believe this comp was done prior to my getting output tranfos in my LB.

BTW, I've got output tranfos only, not input.  I also have a LB with an internal li-ion battery, not a 9v or AA battery sled.  I've never tested it on runtime.  I generally have been using it on the low power setting with my Milabs, and I'd expect 20+ hours on that setting.   Maybe 10-12 hours on the 48v setting, though again I've never tested it.

OK, gotcha Todd :) Thanks alot for the info ;) I am sure I'll be completely happy w/ my LB, and it seems mine is the only one w/ BOTH IN/OUT tformers, no? I was going to save up for a V2, but I figured my 722 is close enuf to a v2/v3 when comparing a clean signal, and I have ALWAYS wanted a preamp w/ a diff[warmer] feeling. So the LB seems PERFECT, and saves me over HALF of what a used v2 costs :)

Does ANYONE have recordings w/ the LB in the chain ??? BUELLER ???
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2011, 01:47:48 PM »
Just do a search of "littlebox" on Archive.org -- lots of littlebox sourced shows are up.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline willndmb

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2011, 01:59:35 PM »
Just do a search of "littlebox" on Archive.org -- lots of littlebox sourced shows are up.
or "LB"
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2011, 02:12:12 PM »
Just do a search of "littlebox" on Archive.org -- lots of littlebox sourced shows are up.
or "LB"

Thanks, for some reason I never thought of that :P I have been gone for too long :P

But the smiliey/post ratio is WAY UP NOW ;D
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2011, 06:33:07 PM »
Does ANYONE have recordings w/ the LB in the chain ?

Several in my LMA bookmark link with Neumann and ADK mics.

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker
Joly Mod Oktava MK012 C,H,O > Tascam DR701d


http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2011, 06:59:05 PM »
Does ANYONE have recordings w/ the LB in the chain ?

Several in my LMA bookmark link with Neumann and ADK mics.

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

WOW that Speakeasy recording smokes....I'm gettin me a little box...should go nice with my HO's
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
MBHO648/KA100Lk/KA200/KA300/KA500 > SD702

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Littlebox questions???
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2011, 09:20:13 PM »
Does ANYONE have recordings w/ the LB in the chain ?

Several in my LMA bookmark link with Neumann and ADK mics.

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

+T ;D LOVIN' that Bisco set w/ the ak40>LB ;D

What is done to your LB tho ??? Sounds like tformers on the output ???
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

 

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