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Offline geoff piper

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What should I do?
« on: March 01, 2003, 04:40:29 PM »
I'm a newbie looking for a rig. I have been reading everything on these boards and others for about two months or so now and would just like to get a overall opinion on a set up. Would it be better for me to run
great mics> Phantom power>D100

or

good mics>preamp>d100.

I know that mics make the most difference in the rig so I am guessing that the overall consensious is that of the first choice. I will be do both open and stealth taping. If you read this already at another board I'm sorry I'm just looking for the most opinions I can find. Thanks for your help.

Offline Bri

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2003, 04:56:15 PM »
Most Pre Amps supply phantom power, or they are called mic to line drivers. True mics are the most important part of the rig, but not the most important part in taping. You have to make some sacrifices in fidelity to make tapes in certain enviroments. IE, large diaphram mics are no good for stealth... In my opinion, the most overlooked part of making good tapes is knowing how to make good tapes. This means getting  the equipment to work to it's fullest potential, and using the equipment correctly. Dont expect a huge investment to get you better tapes, there is a considerable amount of the wuality that relies on your ability to make the best of the venue and your gear.

Bri

Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2003, 05:18:51 PM »
Location, Location, Location!!!
Oh yeah, nice gear helps  ;D

Mike

every show i go to i try to watch to see how every taper sets up. The angles, heights, mic placement style, etc.  And I have a bunch of friends that tape that have given me advice and the links to places where i can look for information. So I'm learning a little at a time but would like something to get me started. I know that i should stay with something that i can learn on.

Offline Bri

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2003, 05:25:34 PM »
we are here for you if you have any questions! We were all there once.... ;)

|Bri

Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2003, 05:37:25 PM »
we are here for you if you have any questions! We were all there once.... ;)

|Bri

I'm just not sure what way i should go... If i got with just the mic>phatom power would i be able to stealth. I know that if i go mics> preamp i will be able to since the MP-2 is small in size. I'm looking for a good sound, not the best but good enough to listen to without having alot of static, etc. What would you suggest? And again thanks alot i know its repetitive to help out newbies.

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2003, 05:42:54 PM »
ok, I see where you are coming from now. What type of shows will you be taping?

Bri

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2003, 05:44:25 PM »
Hey Geoff --

What mics are you planning to use?  Not all mics sound their best with all preamps, so if you do go with an MP2 pre, make sure you've listened to the mic/pre combation in some tapes first.

Everything mentioned so far is spot-on.  Here's my $.02, I'd go:

great mics > Phantom power > line transformers > D100

Not only is this stealthier than the MP2, but it's also a lot less expensive, or at least allows you to put the MP2 money into a set of higher quality mics if you so choose.  Line transformers can be had for ~$40/pair and are a great, inexpensive way to apply clean gain so you can go line-in on the D100.  You can always sell the phantom power and line transformers later to get a pre, but this way when you do, you won't also be wanting to change the mics for an upgrade.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2003, 05:53:16 PM »
I'm just not sure what way i should go... If i got with just the mic>phatom power would i be able to stealth.

Definitely.  In fact, the phantom power box + line transformers (see my other post) should be smaller than the MP2.  Stealth away.

I'm looking for a good sound, not the best but good enough to listen to without having alot of static, etc. What would you suggest?

A good set of mics with either pre or phantom/line transformers will get you good sounding tapes (no static/distortion).  I personally think leaving the pre out of the equation is a good way to start - let's you figure out the rest of your gear, learn how your mics sound in different situations, and tailor your pre choice down the road to address specific attributes you do or don't like about the tapes you've been pulling.  And at the same time, it gives you an opportunity to listen to other recordings to help decide which pre you like best matched with your mics for the kind of taping you're doing.  It's a little more work and takes a little more time, but it also allows you to make the most informed decision possible.

Have you decided on a budget?  It may help for some to provide more valuable and more detailed input.  But one thing to always remember: we're offering up our opinions.  Ultimately, the choice is yours - do what your ears like and makes sense to you.
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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2003, 06:07:09 PM »
Yep, I think we need more info on budget, which shows you're going to, etc.
Armen

Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2003, 06:13:12 PM »
Ok i already have the D100. I have around 800 for mics-power-transformers. I was looking at the MG M300<PS2 combo. I like the M300's are very detailed and warm with good bass respone. I'll be taping: my friends who plays acoustic guitar, DMB(even though there are many great tapers) blue grass bands, local artist, Howie Day, etc. Thanks again for the input

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2003, 08:10:53 PM »
I think the gefell's alone are going to run around 6-700 bucks per pair.  They are quite nice though!
I am going to be running the 200's in the near future!

Daryan

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2003, 09:10:57 AM »
I don't think you can go wrong with the M300s, Geoff.  I only have one or two recordings with these mics - really nice.  I've heard and read nothing but rave reviews about the M300s, too.  But, most importantly, it sounds like your ears like them:
I like the M300's are very detailed and warm with good bass respone.

If your ears like 'em, I say go for it.

Even if new at $700 as Daryan says, that still leaves you $100 for a used PS2 for power and $40 for line transformers, you're looking at $840 - pretty darn close to your $800 budget!

Keep your eye on the Oade Gear Exchange - lots of good gear up for sale there pretty regularly, you might luck out and come across an M300 pair, and surely have a good shot at a used PS2.
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Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2003, 12:43:18 PM »
Thanks guys for all the help, it really means alot to me. I think I'm going to go with the M300's> PS-2 for now and if I enjoy it the upgrade bug might hit me next year. By the way can someone point me in the direction of where i can buy line transformers?
Thanks Again
Geoff

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2003, 08:22:39 PM »
Just to follow up, I have been doing quite a bit of my own research on gefell's in the last couple of months.  Go to gprime.com, and see if they have some demo's.  I got my m200's from them this week for as grand total of 795 dollars, including 2 card caps, one omni, and one hyper cap.  I am going to sell the omni and buy another hyper I think.  The guy I talked to and who answers the questions is very nice and professional, I would highly reccomend them.  Otherwise, check out the overseas retailers for new ones.  I was quoted 675 and 695 by the two well known retailers here, and the gell m200 was about 100 dollars cheaper at musicians-gear.com.  Just some food for thought!  I will post the exact price in a second!

Daryan

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2003, 08:25:25 PM »
OK, well they are 900 a pair overseas, which seems like a lot.  I would talk to gprime.  Tell them you saw the special they were offering last year for buy one get one half off, and see if they will still honor that.  I know they still had it a couple months ago!

Daryan

Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2003, 09:18:33 PM »
OK, well they are 900 a pair overseas, which seems like a lot.  I would talk to gprime.  Tell them you saw the special they were offering last year for buy one get one half off, and see if they will still honor that.  I know they still had it a couple months ago!

Daryan

i went to that musicians-gear site and are their pirces for one or a pair of mics?

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2003, 03:32:03 AM »
prices are most likely apiece, unless noted as a stereo pair.  

what model # are you interested in, and i'll look to double check.  that site can be kinda confusing...  ;)

Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2003, 08:46:42 AM »
m300 and 200

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2003, 02:01:05 PM »
yep, sorry, but these prices are definately apiece:

M300 DARK BRONCE    456.44 USD
M200 SATIN NICKEL    607.65 USD
M200 BLACK MATT       607.65 USD

sounds like the US retailers may be the best choice right now.  prices fluctuate with the Dollar, so this appears to not be a good time to buy from Germany.

peace

~S

Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2003, 04:22:22 PM »
I have til june to get everything so I'm going to take my time and try to find a used pair... Anyone know where to buy line transformers?

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2003, 04:49:32 PM »
Anyone know where to buy line transformers?

Check out the Hosa webpage for dealers in your area, you want model MIT-176:

http://www.hosatech.com/accessories_index_4.html#TRANSFORMERS

I really liked the pig-tail setup on this one, made it easier to pack, deal with cables once hooked up, etc.

The Audio Technica SP8201s also seem popular:

http://www.audiotechnica.com/guide/other/access/inline.html

Not sure where to get 'em, but I think there's a number you can call in the About AT section of the website to either order direct or find a local dealer.

I've heard of still others using Radio Shack transformers, don't know the model.

Good luck!
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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2003, 04:58:42 PM »
Thanks for posting up those prices.  For the 200s, that's a really good price; GPrime charges more than that.  For the 300s, that is not a good price; several retailers have them for cheaper (including GPrime).  Interesting about the discrepancy between model number pricing.

If you order from overseas, don't forget that you will have to tack on some additional funds for customs and shipping.  I really want to order a pair of M20 caps (the cards), but I am still looking for a good price on those or waiting until someone offers up a used pair.
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Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2003, 05:09:39 PM »
Anyone know where to buy line transformers?

Check out the Hosa webpage for dealers in your area, you want model MIT-176:

http://www.hosatech.com/accessories_index_4.html#TRANSFORMERS

I really liked the pig-tail setup on this one, made it easier to pack, deal with cables once hooked up, etc.

The Audio Technica SP8201s also seem popular:

http://www.audiotechnica.com/guide/other/access/inline.html

Not sure where to get 'em, but I think there's a number you can call in the About AT section of the website to either order direct or find a local dealer.

I've heard of still others using Radio Shack transformers, don't know the model.

Good luck!

thanks for the info. Now i would need a 1/4 to 1/8 stereo adaptort to go from that to my d100 right? And also what settings should it be on? Or does it depend on the situation

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2003, 05:26:26 PM »
Right!  Yeah, I forgot about the 2 x 1/4" > mini(1/8") stereo plug, you'll need one of those, too.  They're inexpensive.  I think I have a Hosa adapter I picked up at a local music shop, always worked fine for me.

By what settings, do you mean on the D100?  If so, with the transformers in the chain you'll want to run Line-In to your D100, setting levels manually (no AVLS/autolimit or whatever the other options are).  One of the reasons to run line transformers is to bypass the not-so-hot mic pre in the D100.

Whether you record at 48 khz or 44.1 kHz is a personal choice and depends in part on your ultimate destination medium for the recording and your resampling capability.
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Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2003, 05:31:29 PM »
the transformer one says that it has three different setting? so i got confused

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2003, 06:00:01 PM »
Gotcha, Geoff - I understand your confusion now.

The unit you see with multiple settings on the AT page is an attenuator (CP8202) - it *cuts* gain if you have too much.  You won't need this one.

If you go the AT route, the one you want is just below the CP8202 on the AT webpage I listed before, the CP8201, the middle unit in the page.

Hope this helps!
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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2003, 06:02:47 PM »
thanks sorry for being an idiot  :)

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2003, 09:12:10 PM »
none of us knew anythig about this stuff when we started, bro...  ;)

Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2003, 10:21:55 PM »
guys i came up with a little problem...Well DMB's tour dates just went up and it looks like I can only go to 4 dates at most... I was planning on at least 8 for the year. And since i dont know any other schedules it may be im only going to be hitting under 15 shows this year. Is it worth it to buy gear knowing that i might not be using it alot?

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2003, 10:24:21 PM »
thats really up to you... i would say yes so you can tape other bands as well :-)  but hey im addicted.

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2003, 10:37:49 PM »
gotta  agree with Jonny.  once ya get goin' you'll find yourself searchin' for shows to tape.  smaller shows are some of the most fun times you'll have.  can't count on only taping the big boys all the time.  least i don't.

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2003, 10:39:05 PM »
yeah thats true but to spend close to 1600+ on something that i might only use 10x at most is kinda scary...

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2003, 10:43:29 PM »
this is true... its really a decision you are gonna have to make... the way i see it is that I try to run my rig as MUCH as possible to make it as cost effective as possible... at least in my mind

Jonny

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2003, 10:49:00 PM »
this is true... its really a decision you are gonna have to make... the way i see it is that I try to run my rig as MUCH as possible to make it as cost effective as possible... at least in my mind

Jonny

That is my point at 10 shows thats almost 200 bucks a show + or - and counting tickets... But running at 30 its like around 50 bucks a show... a little more reasonable   :-\

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2003, 01:24:36 AM »
see, this is the whole question.  how much are the experiences/ friends made/ total enjoyment of taping worth to you?  to peeps like me and Jonny, it's worth a whole lot.  but like he said, we're addicted.  if you're worried about the money, then why not think about just patching for a year, and see if your obsession grows?  if not, then maybe it's not your bag.  

i got into taping originally to ensure i got quality copies of the shows i went to personally.  the 'net was not around yet, and this was a hit and miss process at best back then.  everything was done by snail mail, or phone.  i didn't wanna grovel to tapers wherever i went to spin me analog tapes of the shows.  (before CDR as well!).  

i got into taping without ever patching for even a show, but that was my preference.  nothing wrong with patching/ converting/ spreading shows.  there's a place for everyone in this whole gig.  not everyone has to run a rig.  if you're worried about the bread, i'd say patch for awhile and see how it goes.  just my .02

peace

~S  

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2003, 08:32:21 AM »
Guys thanks alot for the help... havent decided what I am going to do yet. The only reason I wanted to do this because some band that i enjoy arent getting taped, but with not tour schedule besides DMB's out i dont know how many shows I'll be hitting and if they dont come in with a bunch of tour dates, im affraid that it might be too expensive per show... I'm still not sure, but thanks again.

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2003, 10:05:08 AM »
One thing to keep in mind, Geoff, is that if you buy used gear, you can recoup almost all of your cost if you decide to get out of the game down the road.

New gear depreciates around 25-30% almost at the time of purchase.  If you buy used gear, it doesn't depreciate another 25-30% just because it's changed hands.

And I can mirror what others have said: I'm addicted, and taping has encouraged me to get out to shows I wouldn't have attended otherwise.  More music is good!
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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2003, 10:18:05 AM »
I'm looking through my schedule right now and can possibly fit in 5 more shows... Thanks to DMB deciding to hit the east coast late i have to try to fit it in in between school and golf. but i can possibly hit spac both nights with a drive back after each. then a saturday at Meadows and then a friday and saturday at Tweeter... Still have to run it past my sister, aka my driver. But if I can make it to about 20 shows this year and tape them all I wont mind putting the money into it.

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2003, 10:33:13 AM »
But if I can make it to about 20 shows this year and tape them all I wont mind putting the money into it.

Don't forget about next year...and the year after...etc.

"My name is Brian, and I'm addicted to taping."
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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2003, 10:40:48 AM »
But if I can make it to about 20 shows this year and tape them all I wont mind putting the money into it.

Don't forget about next year...and the year after...etc.

"My name is Brian, and I'm addicted to taping."

ahahaha.. yeah true... i dont know what im going to do i would really like to do it so i dont know. But thanks again for the advice

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2003, 06:32:32 PM »
Guys I think i made my decision... my friend gave me his tour dates and there are alot there... So it looks like its a go

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2003, 07:18:12 PM »
Sweet Geoff!  Hope our community can be as much help to you as possible!

Jonny

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2003, 07:29:26 PM »
Sweet Geoff!  Hope our community can be as much help to you as possible!

Jonny
thank you you all have been a big help so far. Thanks again

Offline geoff piper

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Re:What should I do?
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2003, 10:50:55 AM »
just grabbed another show. David Gray July 17th...  ;D

 

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