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Offline acidjack

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Some general questions on the Oade M248
« on: April 28, 2011, 11:33:48 AM »
I am finally getting familiar with the 248 I bought from Focker on here recently, and it has made a pretty dramatic difference in my recordings. 

I have noticed that the pre (probably because it's designed for what we do, and not nature recording, I'm guessing) seems to have a pretty limited gain range, especially depending on the impedance of your mics.  For example, on my -414s and Schoeps, I've found that I get a solid signal running it at 9 o'clock or at most 12 o'clock; actually, with the 414s at a recent fairly-loud club show, I had to run it at 7 o'clock and dial down the gain on my R-44. 

Last night, I recorded the band Low, who are pretty quiet, but certainly amplified, running 4021>Oade>M10.  To get peaks around -12dB I had to crank the Oade to nearly 3 o'clock and turn the gain on the M10 all the way to max on the knob.  I assume this is because the DPAs are pretty high-impedance mics (they always require more gain than the Schoeps) and the show was pretty quiet, but again, I was surprised, as the show was not THAT quiet - certainly not as quiet as an unamplified acoustic show or something like that (more Cowboy Junkies quiet).  The recording sounds great, so I'm not complaining. 

In any event, I had also been told that Oade recommends running the pre fairly low, around 9 o'clock, and then cranking the gain on your deck if necessary.  This makes no sense to me, since it would seem to obviate the benefits of using an HQ pre.  Has anyone else heard that?

In any event, I'm loving the unit, but it being a used, handmade piece of gear, I'd love some user tips from those who have run it for a long time. 
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2011, 12:11:33 PM »
I am finally getting familiar with the 248 I bought from Focker on here recently, and it has made a pretty dramatic difference in my recordings. 

I have noticed that the pre (probably because it's designed for what we do, and not nature recording, I'm guessing) seems to have a pretty limited gain range, especially depending on the impedance of your mics.  For example, on my -414s and Schoeps, I've found that I get a solid signal running it at 9 o'clock or at most 12 o'clock; actually, with the 414s at a recent fairly-loud club show, I had to run it at 7 o'clock and dial down the gain on my R-44. 

Last night, I recorded the band Low, who are pretty quiet, but certainly amplified, running 4021>Oade>M10.  To get peaks around -12dB I had to crank the Oade to nearly 3 o'clock and turn the gain on the M10 all the way to max on the knob.  I assume this is because the DPAs are pretty high-impedance mics (they always require more gain than the Schoeps) and the show was pretty quiet, but again, I was surprised, as the show was not THAT quiet - certainly not as quiet as an unamplified acoustic show or something like that (more Cowboy Junkies quiet).  The recording sounds great, so I'm not complaining. 

In any event, I had also been told that Oade recommends running the pre fairly low, around 9 o'clock, and then cranking the gain on your deck if necessary.  This makes no sense to me, since it would seem to obviate the benefits of using an HQ pre.  Has anyone else heard that?

In any event, I'm loving the unit, but it being a used, handmade piece of gear, I'd love some user tips from those who have run it for a long time.

your AKGs have a 20mv/pa output rating, the schoeps are 14mv/pa and the dpas are about 7mv/pa. Lower the number, more gain required. Impedance doesn't really impact it nearly as much as how how the signal is leaving the mic.

second, I agree that it makes little sense to me other then faulty designed gear to run a piece of gear lower for the purpose it's "designed" for and fill that function elsewhere.
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Offline DATBRAD

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2011, 01:00:34 PM »

...... I had also been told that Oade recommends running the pre fairly low, around 9 o'clock, and then cranking the gain on your deck if necessary.  This makes no sense to me, since it would seem to obviate the benefits of using an HQ pre.  Has anyone else heard that?


In my discussions with Doug, it's not that he recommends running the preamp specifically low, but that you run the gain up fairly high on the recorder, 60% to 70% of it's range, then bring the preamp up to whatever gain will give you good recording levels. This is mainly designed to ensure the active circuits in the recorder's line input are not overloaded.

I know that 248 you have from when Focker owned it, and it's definately a nice piece of gear. Enjoy!
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2011, 05:45:36 PM »
^^ Thanks. That makes somewhat more sense to me.... although I thought with every other pre running analog in, this "unity" gain concept is generally what's thrown around.  In any event, as I said, the main thing is it has worked beautifully so far... I must admit, I was skeptical that a better pre would make that much of an improvement over the modded R-44 pres, but it sure seems to.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2011, 05:55:04 PM »
Definitely set the M10 to it's unity gain setting (~6) and crank the M248 up as much as needed.

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2011, 01:02:16 PM »
I've only used an m248 briefly, but here is my understanding... those gain knobs are more like "trim knobs".   There is a fixed DB gain (like the m148 is a fixed 20db gain), and then those knobs allow you to tweak a few db's to make up for missmatch between the 2 mics etc.  That way if you run into a recorder which doesn't have individual L/R gain you can make it up there.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2011, 03:33:59 PM »
..that would make sense as to why it doesn't seem like it has much of a gain range, for sure. 
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2011, 11:42:47 PM »
Definitely set the M10 to it's unity gain setting (~6) and crank the M248 up as much as needed.

So for sure, the M10's "unity gain" is DEF at 6 on the record wheel ??? I was wondering where to run it at. I have been running it at 2>4 on the rec wheel. So yinz dont think running it at 6 will result in more noise from the M10 ???

Sorry for the thread highjack, but Ive been wondering that since I got it, because I dont want to push my LB too too hard :(
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
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Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
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Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

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Offline jbell

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 09:37:13 AM »
I usually run the D50 between 4-5! 

Definitely set the M10 to it's unity gain setting (~6) and crank the M248 up as much as needed.

So for sure, the M10's "unity gain" is DEF at 6 on the record wheel ??? I was wondering where to run it at. I have been running it at 2>4 on the rec wheel. So yinz dont think running it at 6 will result in more noise from the M10 ???

Sorry for the thread highjack, but Ive been wondering that since I got it, because I dont want to push my LB too too hard :(
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2011, 10:32:30 AM »
I was wondering where to run it at. I have been running it at 2>4 on the rec wheel. So yinz dont think running it at 6 will result in more noise from the M10 ???

Past experience has shown that where you run the recorder setting can have a *dramatic* impact on recording quality.

I don't have an m10 (been thinking about it), but I would encourage yous guys to do some comps to determine whether there is a sweet spot, and whether there are portions of the range that are sour....  A lot of these recorders do digital attenuation when you turn the gain down - and that can be bad.   

I don't recall anyone ever posting a comp on the 7xx on whether running line in at 0 or -6 was better.  Always wondered about that.

Back to the OP's post... Getting some gain from the recorder isn't necessarily a bad thing.  You're already running into that amplifier, you're already getting the noise.

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Offline johnw

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2011, 12:00:31 PM »
I usually run the D50 between 4-5! 

Definitely set the M10 to it's unity gain setting (~6) and crank the M248 up as much as needed.

So for sure, the M10's "unity gain" is DEF at 6 on the record wheel ??? I was wondering where to run it at. I have been running it at 2>4 on the rec wheel. So yinz dont think running it at 6 will result in more noise from the M10 ???

Sorry for the thread highjack, but Ive been wondering that since I got it, because I dont want to push my LB too too hard :(

I *think* it is around 4 based on my recordings. No one has ever conclusively tested the M10, but it was discussed in at least one thread in the recorder section. Would make for a good/useful project Bean. Best way to do this that I know of would be to run a stereo line out of a playback recording of a tone and then record say the left channel to the 722 (with line in at 0)  and the right channel to the M10 at various settings and then compare the wav files from the M10 to the file with no attenuation on the 722. Since I don't have a 722 any more, I volunteer you!
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 04:26:39 PM »
Thanks guys! Sorry for the threadjack ;)
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax |  2x CA/ALO SPC Litz | Sony MUC-M2BT1 LDAC MMCX Cables ->
Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 10:34:07 AM »
Back to the OP's post... Getting some gain from the recorder isn't necessarily a bad thing.  You're already running into that amplifier, you're already getting the noise.

I'm not sure what you mean 'you're already getting the noise' in your last sentence. 

The m248 is a clean, low noise preamp.  I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that it will give cleaner gain than the m10.  So, while I agree that getting gain from the recorder isn't always a bad thing, if I were acidjack I'd rely on the gain from the 248 as much as possible.  Since I'm not sure about the internal noise on a M10, I'd trust the 248 before I'd trust the m10.

If you need to, leave your levels peaking lower and bump your levels in post rather than adding noisy gain from the handheld to get your levels up.  That said, I do understand your point about running the m10 too low and attenuating the signal too much in the recorder, but that's not acidjacks problem...he's having to run the m10 all the way up to get his levels peaking where he wants them. 

Also, Acidjack you said that your recording with the M10 gain cranked sounds good, so it sounds like you're good for the type of recording you do.  However, if you needed to record in lower volume settings where the noise might become a bigger issue, my main concern with cranking the M10 to get good levels would be introducing audible noise from the hand held...it's possible that this noise was masked at the recent louder volume show you recorded.

Offline acidjack

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2011, 03:40:04 PM »
^^ Well, the one quieter show I did with the M10 cranked sounds pretty good, but there is hiss.  Knowing what I know now, I'd have run the 248 as high as it would go before going above unity on the M10
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline willndmb

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2011, 07:40:30 PM »
Definitely set the M10 to it's unity gain setting (~6) and crank the M248 up as much as needed.

So for sure, the M10's "unity gain" is DEF at 6 on the record wheel ??? I was wondering where to run it at. I have been running it at 2>4 on the rec wheel. So yinz dont think running it at 6 will result in more noise from the M10 ???

Sorry for the thread highjack, but Ive been wondering that since I got it, because I dont want to push my LB too too hard :(
not from my test
i ran white noise from my stereo to the m10 and found that 4 was unity
i also found that each number is approx 2-3 db plus or minus depending on the direction you go
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2011, 12:04:10 AM »
Definitely set the M10 to it's unity gain setting (~6) and crank the M248 up as much as needed.

So for sure, the M10's "unity gain" is DEF at 6 on the record wheel ??? I was wondering where to run it at. I have been running it at 2>4 on the rec wheel. So yinz dont think running it at 6 will result in more noise from the M10 ???

Sorry for the thread highjack, but Ive been wondering that since I got it, because I dont want to push my LB too too hard :(
not from my test
i ran white noise from my stereo to the m10 and found that 4 was unity
i also found that each number is approx 2-3 db plus or minus depending on the direction you go

+T thank you very much for that info on the unity gain ;)
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax |  2x CA/ALO SPC Litz | Sony MUC-M2BT1 LDAC MMCX Cables ->
Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
(Pentium i5 Processor/8gb RAM/256gb SSD)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2011, 10:09:07 AM »
+T thank you very much for that info on the unity gain ;)

Has anyone made a faq for that thing yet?

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Re: Some general questions on the Oade M248
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2011, 07:49:35 PM »
+T thank you very much for that info on the unity gain ;)

Has anyone made a faq for that thing yet?


Doubtful
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax |  2x CA/ALO SPC Litz | Sony MUC-M2BT1 LDAC MMCX Cables ->
Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
(Pentium i5 Processor/8gb RAM/256gb SSD)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

 

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