Topic: Small recorder for FX, ambience, and perhaps field recording - M10, ls-5, DR-2D

[Jema]

Hello!

I'm a film student focusing on sound, and I'm beginning to look at getting some basic equipment of my own. Even though I will probably get something like a FR-2LE or DR680 when I start earning money, I thought it might be good to also have a cheaper, small recorder that I can always have with me, primarily for catching sounds and ambience I encounter in daily life for later work in post. A secondary usage might be in the field for smaller productions, as a main recorder or for planting near a sound source.

I've had limited experience with this kind of device though, so I don't know if it's the way to go. In the end, I know that for best performance i should use external mic and preamp, but that takes away from the portable aspect and would make it more expensive (maybe not a mic, but probably a pre) - in that case I would just buy a field recorder instead. Since I've heard of several small productions though using a H4n for both FX and in production, which does not seem to be the best available in it's price range, I think I should be able to get what I want out of a small recorder. Am I wrong?

I've been looking at various recommendations on this and other sites, and omitting the D50 and PMD661 (too expensive, especially as the ones mentioned below is said to come close anyway), there seem to be three prime candidates (though I'll gladly take other recommendations):
M10
ls-5 (the cheaper version of ls-11)
DR-2D


There are numerous things I would like to have help with and opinions on regarding these. It might be a bit much, but I appreciate any help I can get.

-How is the build quality? I expect to be able to use it for several years, and if used in the field it might get a little rough treatment.

-Is any particularly sensitive to heat or cold? (I live in Sweden, and winters often go below -20 degrees celsius)
How about moisture?

-Does anyone deem the onboard mics to be able to capture a wide variety of sounds, that might also be predominantly quiet/soft? The ls-5 is for instance said to have weak bass below 60Hz, which may or may not be a problem. The M10 is omni and as such has no off-axis rejection, small stereo effect, and some also think it sounds a bit coloured. Are these big enough concerns to opt for any of the others, or does it's strength make up for it? Is perhaps none good enough, and an external to be preferred? If so, are the preamps ok or only an option with an external pre too?

-How is the self noise/noise floor regarding internal mics, pres and line in respectively?

-Can the plug in power be turned off on all, and is it high enough to be used with a variety of mics?

-If used for production, I would want to use external mics and probably pres too, so which recorder would be most suitable in that situation? I've read that the M10 can take a hotter signal, but how many dBu can each recorder handle on their line input (and mic)? Is it enough for a +4dBu signal from a mixer? If not, is there any real disadvantage to simply attenuate the signal for the recorder? (or maybe use a tape out if the mixer has it)

-For production, the possibility of 4ch on the DR-2D is very intriguing, but since you can't change the volume on the line in during recording, and it cannot take as hot a signal as the M10, plus I don't know if the pres are any good, maybe it's not such an advantage? If it's comparable with the others using only 2 tracks, then the ability to use the extra 2ch is of course a bonus.

-Does any have an analog limiter, or are they all digital? Are the limiters any good? (minor deal)


I know the DR-2D uses a lot more batteries, but I intend on using rechargables and have lots of spares, so although not unimportant, it's not as big an issue as overall sound quality.


So, ultimately I just want to know if a small recorder is the way to go for my needs, and if so, which you would recommend.

Thanks in advance!

[OOK]

This has been covered over and over again....Please read....

M10-    http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145955.0

DR-2-   http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131126.0

Olympus-  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=142165.0

[Jema]

Just thought I'd share some of the things I've found out about these recorders since then, if someone else is interested.

The plug in power can be turned off on almost all digital recorders, and though some handheld recorders feature an analogue limiter, these three all have digital ones. I can recall no information about their quality.

The DR-2D is generally seen as having a little cheaper construction than the other two, but has very good internal mics (as usual not in league with external). Several people think the preamp is a bit too noisy for quiet recordings (though for concerts and other strong sounds this is usually not an issue). This is a dealbreaker for me, since that obliterates the option of doing 4 channel recording of quiet sources, and the other two are better for 2 channels.

The ls-5 and M10 seems fairly equal in terms of build (though there are differences of taste regarding the button configurations). They both have very long battery life, supply enough PIP for many microphones (ls-5 a little more, but it shouldn't be a vast dfference - most will probably use an external battery box anyway), and most importantly have similarly quiet preamps that are among the best for their price (view the comparisons on avisofts website).

The differences include that the M10 can take a higher signal in both mic and line, the latter enough for a feed from professional equipment. The internal mics of the ls-5 is becouse of their directionality better for isolating sources and give better stereo imaging, but as mentioned suffers from a large bass roll-off. The M10 also seems to have a bit weak bass, but not as severe as the ls-5. The M10 omnis give very little stereo separation, but give quite good results when recording ambience. The internals have become a much lesser factor for me though, since you can buy or make external microphones with comparable quality for quite cheap. They have some differences in recording options, most notably M10 has 5s pre-rec, and ls-5 the option for mono recording. Neither I find is paramount, but pre-rec is sometimes good to have.

So, as it seems, the M10 is the better choice for me since it can take pretty hot signals, and have quite good preamps. There are still some things I havent found any info on though (but I'll keep looking in the meantime): How they do in different temperatures and humidity, how durable they actually are, and one thing Guysonic mentioned in the M10 thread: that it's HIGH setting is simply an 20dB digital boost. I find this odd since the avisoft web page cites different EIN values between HIGH and LOW setting. Can anyone confirm this?

[flintstone]

Just as an aside, the Olympus LS-5 is distributed in Europe, and it appears to be the same design as the LS-11, minus a few features to hold the cost down. 

In North America, Olympus distributes the LS-7 as its less expensive LS recorder.  This recorder is different than the LS-11 in that it has three built-in mics.  The center mic improves the recorder's response to very low frequency sounds.  The LS-7's preamp is also not as quiet (that is, it adds more noise to the recording) as the preamp in the LS-5.  Given the quality of the internal mics Olympus uses, it's not clear that you could hear the difference, but if you use a mic with very low self-noise, you should be able to hear a small difference.

Telinga, a Swedish mic company, makes a pair of small mics based on the Primo EM23 omni capsule.  The EM23 has low self noise for a small capsule.  The Olympus LS series provides enough "plug-in power" through the mic input to drive the EM23s.  The Sony PCM-M10 and most other small recorders don't.  The LS recorder and Telinga EM23 mics make a very capable recording rig that fits in a pocket. 

[Jema]

I've read about the ls-7, and becouse of the noisier preamp and lack of line in it's not on my list of possible choices. The ls-5 is probably the best option for the money in europe (together with edirol r-05), but I was planning to have someone buy a recorder doing their jurney to USA or other country where they are cheap (since the prices are ridiculus high here).

So the PIP difference is big enough for the ls-5/11 to handle that Telinga mic, but not M10. Are there many more mics where this is the case? Maybe I've misjudged the range of them...

Anyway, since I wont be doing stealth I will probably use larger mics that requires phantom power from an external source, and from what I've heard the extra PIP power should be easy to add with a cheap external device if needed - but maybe I'm wrong about this too?

[F.O.Bean]

Go w the M10 for 2-chan work, and the Tascam DR2D for 4-chan work

[Jema]

When I record more than 2ch I will probably not need to be as portable, and would do well with a larger recorder that can offer more features and cleaner signal.

BTW, I read on a forum that the noise level of the smaller recorders line in could not compare to even the amp-input of some quieter larger recorders (such as fostex fr2(le) and sound devices). Is this something anyone can shed some light on?

[F.O.Bean]

When I record more than 2ch I will probably not need to be as portable, and would do well with a larger recorder that can offer more features and cleaner signal.

BTW, I read on a forum that the noise level of the smaller recorders line in could not compare to even the amp-input of some quieter larger recorders (such as fostex fr2(le) and sound devices). Is this something anyone can shed some light on?

Well, having owned and run a SD 722 for over 5 years now, w/ the M10 on unity gain, I hear ZERO difference between the 722 and the M10's noise floor. As always, YMMV!