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Author Topic: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis  (Read 5989 times)

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adrianf74

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Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« on: September 08, 2011, 04:30:50 PM »
Here's a question for everyone here... and I'm sure I'll get some different takes on this. 

I've got a show I'm heading to in about 4 - 5 hours time.  Have been to this venue a few times this year and have rolled with different mics.  My cards sounded a little muddy (at soundboard area) so I was able to "brighten" them a touch in post.  I was there last week for another show and rolled standing about 15 feet from the stage, dead centre.  Got a great capture except that I found there was TOO much bass in the recording.

The question is, knowing the bass can be quite heavy at this venue, would it be better to run the roll-off for this show or just "fix it in post?"  Ultimately, if there isn't enough bass, you can't add it but it can always be removed if there is.  Just curious as to what people think about this.  I know the roll off should never be used with the cards -- Chris stated as much to me.

Thanks.

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 05:52:08 PM »
My vote is for editing in post, while trying to run conservatively without overloading the signal. Omnis are great close up, but it really can backfire if you have chatty wooks behind you!
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adrianf74

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 06:40:35 PM »
My vote is for editing in post, while trying to run conservatively without overloading the signal. Omnis are great close up, but it really can backfire if you have chatty wooks behind you!
In all honesty, if you've got chatty wooks in front or to the sides of you, cards don't help either -- had this happen to me in July.  So, really, it's a crapshoot.  The last show I rolled the omnis at, I had some idiots announcing each song as they started -- I wanted to say, "Thanks but I already know that" but didn't.   That said, I'll likely run the omnis again tonight as is and fix it in post.

Cheers.

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 07:54:45 PM »
Have fun!
Mics: AKG c460b (ck61, ck62, ck63, ck1x, ck3x), NBob Actives, Naiant Actives, ADK A-51TL
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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 08:40:57 PM »
Roll WITHOUT a rolloff at the show. Roll it off in post if needed ;)
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adrianf74

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 08:57:51 PM »
Roll WITHOUT a rolloff at the show. Roll it off in post if needed ;)
Thanks... that's gonna be the plan.  Got all my gear ready and got another 30 minutes before I can leave and head down to the club.

adrianf74

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 12:15:27 PM »
Omnis are great close up, but it really can backfire if you have chatty wooks behind you!

...and of course, with it being a rawk show, I had some drunken chatty wooks behind and to the side of me.  Was able to move a little to the side and got a more than decent capture.  Bass wasn't as prominent as last time so I'm glad I didn't roll it off.

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 11:33:08 PM »
Omnis are great close up, but it really can backfire if you have chatty wooks behind you!

...and of course, with it being a rawk show, I had some drunken chatty wooks behind and to the side of me.  Was able to move a little to the side and got a more than decent capture.  Bass wasn't as prominent as last time so I'm glad I didn't roll it off.

Awesome and congrats :) NOTHING like the feeling you get after you KNOW you just pulled the "heat" :)
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
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http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2011, 03:02:24 PM »
word up ;D
Mics: AKG c460b (ck61, ck62, ck63, ck1x, ck3x), NBob Actives, Naiant Actives, ADK A-51TL
Pres: Lunatec V2, Sound Devices MP-2
Cables: GAKables exclusively, AKG MK46, Naiant PFA's
Recorders: Edirol R-09HR, Edirol R-44
CPU for DSP: Toshiba Satellite A660 i7 > audioengineD1
Cans: ATH-50
VINYL: Dual CS741Q > Rega Brio-R > Wharfedale EVO2-30

adrianf74

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2011, 02:47:42 PM »
Omnis are great close up, but it really can backfire if you have chatty wooks behind you!

...and of course, with it being a rawk show, I had some drunken chatty wooks behind and to the side of me.  Was able to move a little to the side and got a more than decent capture.  Bass wasn't as prominent as last time so I'm glad I didn't roll it off.

Awesome and congrats :) NOTHING like the feeling you get after you KNOW you just pulled the "heat" :)
Most definitely.  Just used the same mics and preamp (same settings) at the same venue in line with the speakers on stage right about 20 feet from the stacks and got an excellent capture of a well-known UK synthpop duo who just started a North American tour in support of their upcoming album next month.  I don't think I'm going to be doing _any_ EQ on this capture as it was well balanced.  Even the "drunken wooks" were pretty noticeable around me but the omnis didn't pick up much of them because of how loud it was.

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2011, 06:46:15 PM »
Omnis are great close up, but it really can backfire if you have chatty wooks behind you!

...and of course, with it being a rawk show, I had some drunken chatty wooks behind and to the side of me.  Was able to move a little to the side and got a more than decent capture.  Bass wasn't as prominent as last time so I'm glad I didn't roll it off.

Awesome and congrats :) NOTHING like the feeling you get after you KNOW you just pulled the "heat" :)
Most definitely.  Just used the same mics and preamp (same settings) at the same venue in line with the speakers on stage right about 20 feet from the stacks and got an excellent capture of a well-known UK synthpop duo who just started a North American tour in support of their upcoming album next month.  I don't think I'm going to be doing _any_ EQ on this capture as it was well balanced.  Even the "drunken wooks" were pretty noticeable around me but the omnis didn't pick up much of them because of how loud it was.

Sweet. I'd love a sample :)
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 01:14:20 PM »
Here's a question for everyone here... and I'm sure I'll get some different takes on this. 

I've got a show I'm heading to in about 4 - 5 hours time.  Have been to this venue a few times this year and have rolled with different mics.  My cards sounded a little muddy (at soundboard area) so I was able to "brighten" them a touch in post.  I was there last week for another show and rolled standing about 15 feet from the stage, dead centre.  Got a great capture except that I found there was TOO much bass in the recording.

The question is, knowing the bass can be quite heavy at this venue, would it be better to run the roll-off for this show or just "fix it in post?"  Ultimately, if there isn't enough bass, you can't add it but it can always be removed if there is.  Just curious as to what people think about this.  I know the roll off should never be used with the cards -- Chris stated as much to me.

Thanks.

Fix it in post. Remember dead center of any room will be a bump in bass. If the PA is symmetrical to that room.
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adrianf74

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 04:31:57 PM »
Thanks for the PM response as well, Chris.  I used them again but was standing just off centre the second time and that was less bassy.  I used them a third time but stood just inside the stage-right stacks and that was probably the best sounding recording of the three.  The venue is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to its same because I find the sound system there blows. :)

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2011, 06:30:22 PM »
Thanks for the PM response as well, Chris.  I used them again but was standing just off centre the second time and that was less bassy.  I used them a third time but stood just inside the stage-right stacks and that was probably the best sounding recording of the three.  The venue is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to its same because I find the sound system there blows. :)

If we are talking about the Sound Academy in Toronto they have a Clair brothers I4 System in there I have mixed on it and its one of the best sound systems installed in a club in all of Toronto probably one of the best in North America. If it sounds bad in that club its because they have a moron doing sound when you recorded the show. Its a huge venue so you are always going to get better sound close up but that sound system is anything but shit.
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adrianf74

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2011, 07:21:40 PM »
If we are talking about the Sound Academy in Toronto they have a Clair brothers I4 System in there I have mixed on it and its one of the best sound systems installed in a club in all of Toronto probably one of the best in North America. If it sounds bad in that club its because they have a moron doing sound when you recorded the show. Its a huge venue so you are always going to get better sound close up but that sound system is anything but shit.

Chris, we are indeed talking about said venue.  Of the four shows I've seen there in the past two months, two were really good and two were really muddy.  One of those shows was in July and the other was in September.  The two other shows recorded there in September were really good.  One of them was Saga, with management's permission with no stands, etc., and for "personal enjoyment only" while the other was a UK pop-duo that released a new record this week.  The Saga show was great sounding, however, my recording was very bass heavy because of where I was standing (about six-to-seven rows from the stage (no barricade) smack dab in the middle (which we all know gives a recording the dreaded excess bass issue).  Of course, this is the worst spot to be in but I was also trying to get some good pictures (which I did).  The other band in September had me standing about 10-11 rows from the stage (with a barricade) in-line with the stage-right stack.  That was a sweet sounding recording.  The other two shows were a rock show in the second week of September - it was a touch muddy but I was standing off centre this time (the vocals were burried compared with Saga).  The other show in July was a rock show of a recently reformed trio to a over-capacity venue on the hottest day of the year.  I ran the cards on that night and it was a hot-mess.  Luckily I have enough experience from previously working in television audio that I could make it sound "decent."   That night, I was stuck to the left of the soundboard/lighting area and couldn't get any closer. I also managed two other recordings of them; one in Lockport (with the omnis) and the other in Anacaster (also with the omnis) but the sound system at that recently relocated festival sucked severely this past August.

So, since I posted this, I've changed my opinion on the venue.  It's much better than the Guvernment (RPM) or the Kool Haus (The Warehouse) complex venues -- it's just a b**ch to get to.

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2011, 01:03:01 PM »
If we are talking about the Sound Academy in Toronto they have a Clair brothers I4 System in there I have mixed on it and its one of the best sound systems installed in a club in all of Toronto probably one of the best in North America. If it sounds bad in that club its because they have a moron doing sound when you recorded the show. Its a huge venue so you are always going to get better sound close up but that sound system is anything but shit.

Chris, we are indeed talking about said venue.  Of the four shows I've seen there in the past two months, two were really good and two were really muddy.  One of those shows was in July and the other was in September.  The two other shows recorded there in September were really good.  One of them was Saga, with management's permission with no stands, etc., and for "personal enjoyment only" while the other was a UK pop-duo that released a new record this week.  The Saga show was great sounding, however, my recording was very bass heavy because of where I was standing (about six-to-seven rows from the stage (no barricade) smack dab in the middle (which we all know gives a recording the dreaded excess bass issue).  Of course, this is the worst spot to be in but I was also trying to get some good pictures (which I did).  The other band in September had me standing about 10-11 rows from the stage (with a barricade) in-line with the stage-right stack.  That was a sweet sounding recording.  The other two shows were a rock show in the second week of September - it was a touch muddy but I was standing off centre this time (the vocals were burried compared with Saga).  The other show in July was a rock show of a recently reformed trio to a over-capacity venue on the hottest day of the year.  I ran the cards on that night and it was a hot-mess.  Luckily I have enough experience from previously working in television audio that I could make it sound "decent."   That night, I was stuck to the left of the soundboard/lighting area and couldn't get any closer. I also managed two other recordings of them; one in Lockport (with the omnis) and the other in Anacaster (also with the omnis) but the sound system at that recently relocated festival sucked severely this past August.

So, since I posted this, I've changed my opinion on the venue.  It's much better than the Guvernment (RPM) or the Kool Haus (The Warehouse) complex venues -- it's just a b**ch to get to.

My Friend Todd manages Saga He actually has a pair of my mics.. He is a good guy and we have talked about taping and how it can actually help promote an artist. He was reluctant at first but now he agrees. Obviously if you have a good sound engineer its going to sound good, if you dont it wont. You can put the best gear in the world in a morons hands and you will only get a shit sandwich.

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adrianf74

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Re: Church 9100 and Bass Roll-off with CA-14 omnis
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2011, 04:03:58 PM »
My Friend Todd manages Saga He actually has a pair of my mics.. He is a good guy and we have talked about taping and how it can actually help promote an artist. He was reluctant at first but now he agrees. Obviously if you have a good sound engineer its going to sound good, if you dont it wont. You can put the best gear in the world in a morons hands and you will only get a shit sandwich.
Todd's a good guy.  And yes, a good engineer yields the best results in the worst room whilst a bad engineer yields the worst results in the best room.  I've these experiences many times over the years.   Thanks again Chris.

 

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