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Offline acidjack

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Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« on: January 11, 2012, 11:38:59 AM »
I realize Jon may be needed to answer some of these questions, but he's a busy man, and user experience is kind of king here.

First, a very basic question: Does a light of some kind come on when the battery is low on the littlebox/tinybox?  I believe that's the case for littlebox, at least.

Update: Naiant page says on the tinybox the LED turns red at 20%.  I assume this is the same for the littlebox?

Second, what are people's experiences with how long you have once said light comes on?

See above

Third, if you have the internal li-ion - do you periodically drain it to zero and recharge just to keep the battery "healthy"?

Beyond that, among the many many configs, what have you experienced as your runtimes with:

littlebox (9V) at P48
littlebox (9V) at P16 ("low")
littlebox (li-ion) at P48
littlebox (li-ion) at P16
littlebox w/ KCY/9V (which should always be used on "low" power as I understand it)
littlebox w/ KCY/li-ion
littlebox w/ NBox Cables

tinybox
tinybox w/ KCY
tinybox w/ NBox cables

I've gotten roughly 4.5hrs with a littlebox/9V/P48

Have never pushed the limits with the KCY/li-ion one I have, but have gotten over 4hrs.

I believe someone just posted that he got 40(!!!) hrs with a tinybox/NBox cables combo.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 12:27:30 PM by acidjack »
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline bryonsos

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 11:59:31 AM »
Interested to know too, I'm waiting on an LB.
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
Pres: CA-Ugly / Naiant Tinyhead / SD MixPre
Decks: Roland R-44 / Sony PCM-M10
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 12:57:02 PM »
Considering all the different littlebox/tinybox configurations, and all the variables involved, this might be an instance where theory trumps practice.

From my own experience, I have never run down my littlebox nor run it long enough for the low battery indicator to come on.  For most of its life though, I have run it at the low voltage setting (~20v) rather than at 48v since my Milabs and my Beyers are spec'd for 12-48v operation.  At the low 20v setting, it should be good for 20-24hours of operation, so no shock that I haven't run it down.  I've more recently been running it at 48v, which should be good for 10+ hours, and have never run it down.

All that said, if you want to make sense of any of this, you need to know the full details from the reporting user.

In my case, I have an early 1st gen LB that allowed user-specified inamps, and I requested Burr-Brown chips that I think draw 3-4ma per channel, whereas the latest gen LB's use a standard amp (forgot what it is Jon is using now) that draws something like 1ma/channel, maybe less.

I run mics (depending on which I use) that draw either 4.6ma/mic or 4ma/mic.  Other mics might only draw ~2.5ma/mic.  So between my mics and non-standard amps, my littlebox might be drawing twice what another person's littlebox is drawing, and I should expect half the battery life.

I also got the first ever li-ion put into a littlebox (requested Jon to do it for me, and he made it an option).  IIRC, I have a 2000ma-hr battery in my littlebox, whereas the last/latest littleboxes use a 1400ma-hr battery I believe.  So on that basis, my LB should provide ~40% better life compared to a typical li-ion LB, if of course it wasn't configured with inamps that draw 3x the current of the standard inamps.

Confusing enough yet?
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 01:31:47 PM »
Beyond user experiences, it might be useful if Jon can provide a basic formula for estimating battery life, which will depend on his designs for the LB and TB.

For instance, I'm not sure it is right, but here is how I estimate my expected battery life on my LB:

Using the following variables and assumptions --

Vph = phantom voltage level, either high (48v) or low (21v)
Vb = nominal li-ion voltage level, assume 7.4v, further degraded by 0.6v to get from nominal to actual (or thus assume 6.8v in practice)
VCeff = efficiency of the DC-DC voltage conversion, converting Vb up to Vph.  I'm assuming 75% or 0.75
Iamp = current draw for one channel from the inamp.  I believe mine to be ~3.5ma/ch
Iph = current draw for phantom power for your mics, based on spec sheet mine is 4.6ma/ch
Iother = current draw of other stuff in the LB, particularly say the LEDs.  I'm saying 5ma
Cb = capacity of the li-ion battery.  Mine is 2000ma-hr, which I'd degrade by assuming 90% actual
Itot = total current draw of the littlebox
LIFEb = battery life in hours

Those are the variables, formulas would be:

Itot = {[Vph/(Vb-0.6v)]/VCeff} * 2ch*(Iamp + Iph) + Iother

LIFEb = Cb/Itot * 90%


For me, at 48v phantom that would be:

Itot = {48/(7.4v-0.6v)]/0.75} * 2ch*(3.5ma + 4.6ma) + 5ma

Itot = 157ma draw

LIFEb = 2000ma-hr/157ma * 90%   

LIFEb = ~11 hours

Otherwise:
If I did the same mics at low power phantom (21v), the total current draw Itot = 72ma draw

And the battery life LIFEb = 25 hours


I'm not sure that formula is exact, but I think it gets me somewhat close to estimated battery life.  Jon's input on this approach and if possible a generic approach for LB's and TB's could be helpful.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline jbell

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 04:15:38 PM »
I use my KCY 9v battery sled Littlebox on high power and have never had a problem!!  I don't recall Jon saying anything about always running it on low power. 
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v) > Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

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Offline acidjack

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2012, 05:11:24 PM »
I use my KCY 9v battery sled Littlebox on high power and have never had a problem!!  I don't recall Jon saying anything about always running it on low power.

I'll let Jon confirm, but the point is that the powering to the KCY is the same whether you run it on "HIGH" or "LOW"; the KCY input overrides that feature (for the KCY, not the XLR).

In practice, I don't know whether therefore setting it to "LOW" is saving you batt life or not, but I always do that, just in case.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline jbell

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2012, 05:15:38 PM »
I'm almost positive Jon told me you have more battery on low, but less head room.  IIRC

I use my KCY 9v battery sled Littlebox on high power and have never had a problem!!  I don't recall Jon saying anything about always running it on low power.

I'll let Jon confirm, but the point is that the powering to the KCY is the same whether you run it on "HIGH" or "LOW"; the KCY input overrides that feature (for the KCY, not the XLR).

In practice, I don't know whether therefore setting it to "LOW" is saving you batt life or not, but I always do that, just in case.
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v) > Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

-22        -12         -6        TDS     
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__________________________
|Record|  Runtime: 4:19.99  {|||] 75%

Offline acidjack

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 05:47:13 PM »
A-ha!

From the man himself:

Quote
Jon,

Do you happen to know if, to run the littlebox with the KCY, I must
set the power to "HIGH", or is the "LOW" setting intended to be
sufficient?  I know the Schoeps CMR do not require full P48, but it
was not clear to me whether that was also the case with the KCY.

Quote
Thanks again for your hard work.
Naiant Studio music@naiant.com
   
11/10/11
      
to me
The KCY gets the same power on either setting, so you should use the low power setting.

Doesn't clarify whether the current draw/batt life changes, but there you go.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline jbell

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 06:19:38 PM »
I would guess that if it draws the same power then the battery life would be the same???  ???
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 06:24:33 PM by jmbell »
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v) > Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

-22        -12         -6        TDS     
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__________________________
|Record|  Runtime: 4:19.99  {|||] 75%

Offline jbell

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2012, 06:58:51 PM »
A v2 KCY littlebox will create two power rails:  130V (!) and 48V, or 60V and 21V.  The high polarization voltage is regulated down to 60V for the KCY in either case. The amp supply is regulated down from 48V to a max of 31V, or 20V at 21V.  The low-volt supply for the KCY is 6V, that is also regulated down from 48V or 21V--not terribly efficient, but it's <1mA between the two channels.  There is practically no current draw in the high-volt rail, just a couple of bleeder resistors that use about 0.1mA.

So you have more headroom in the amp at high power, but shorter runtime.

I thought I remembered you telling me that high power created more head room.
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v) > Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

-22        -12         -6        TDS     
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__________________________
|Record|  Runtime: 4:19.99  {|||] 75%

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2012, 09:46:32 PM »
48v LB w/ AA Battery Sled/With Out xformers, I got around 8-10 hours ;)
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline willndmb

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2012, 09:57:02 PM »
man i am lost, lol
but with my lb and a rc battery i got about 7 hrs at 48v

can't wait to see what i get with akg actives and tb  >:D
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 10:27:50 PM »
man i am lost, lol
but with my lb and a rc battery i got about 7 hrs at 48v

can't wait to see what i get with akg actives and tb  >:D

I really hope the AKG Actives come to fruition bro :) I might even snag a ck63>TB setup and rock out some AKG's again. But I aint selling anything to get em ;) Just keep adding more and more gear to my arsenal ;)
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline colargol

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2012, 01:03:45 PM »
I believe someone just posted that he got 40(!!!) hrs with a tinybox/NBox cables combo.

Yup, that is true... Here's what I wrote to Jon:

I just tested the tinybox with the nbox actives and the mk41s. I fully charged it, used my r09hr to tape a continous tone from my computer speakers. The volume was set quite low, and the r09hr was set to max input level. The tinybox was set on high gain. It worked continously for 41 hours and 15 minutes...! The sound is, as I said, just a continous tone, so it's impossible to say if the recording sounds fine until the end, but I can't hear anything not right...

And this is Jon's reply (he originally said he expected around 20 hours battery life):

That is probably a typical battery life then; I didn't know the exact current draw of the nbox actives so I guessed on the high side.  Nothing will change with the battery life and those mics unless the load on the output is much higher--headphones, for example.

-c
MK4s/MK41s > nbox/nbob actives > tinybox/nbox platinum/babynbox > M10/A10

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant tinybox/littlebox battery times and related questions
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2012, 02:17:44 AM »
Thats good to know!
Recording Gear:
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 64gb Ultra Plus SDXC-I

Portable Playback Gear:
Campfire Audio Dorado IEM's >
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax {3.5mm} | 
FiiO LC 2.5c {2.5mm} >
Shanling Audio M5s | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 15 5570-5521 Laptop

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

 

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