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Author Topic: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.  (Read 7033 times)

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Offline Popmarter

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Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« on: March 02, 2012, 03:24:29 AM »
Hi all, just got my new toy (SD Mixpre-D). I have been fooling around with it last night, and wondered what is the best way to set levels in combination with the Sony M10.

The best situation for me would be to be able to set the M10 to a certain level, put some tape over the levelbutton (to prevent accidental movement), put it on record and than put it away deep in my pocket. Not to worry about it anymore. And concentrate on the mixpre-d for accurate levels.

Any comments?
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline Drgiggles1

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2012, 05:35:01 PM »
On the M10 if going line in put it on level 4, mic in just a hair under 3. The pre will vary depending on the type of show you record.
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Offline bryonsos

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 06:35:59 PM »
I set the M10 at 4.5 and adjust my MixPre to get the levels to -12 to -6. It's a pretty hot pre so you'll want to use the pads on the mic for loud shows, or get some inline attenuators. Great clean pre, you're going to love it!
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Offline jbell

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 06:56:00 PM »
I ran an MP-2 for a long time and never needed atteunators!!  It is alittle hotter than the mixpre.
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline Popmarter

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 03:39:26 AM »
I set the M10 at 4.5 and adjust my MixPre to get the levels to -12 to -6. It's a pretty hot pre so you'll want to use the pads on the mic for loud shows, or get some inline attenuators. Great clean pre, you're going to love it!

"pads on the mic", you mean the "-20somethingdb" on the mic? (sorry, languagething here). With previous mics I never used that option. I've got Milab VM44-links now that will be connected to this preamp. They do have this option, but again I was not planning on using it as I don't expect i need it.
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 03:43:39 AM »
On the M10 if going line in put it on level 4, mic in just a hair under 3. The pre will vary depending on the type of show you record.

I use line-in all the time. Tried out something with recording sound from speakers in my room, and seems fine.
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 03:48:23 AM »
I set the M10 at 4.5 and adjust my MixPre to get the levels to -12 to -6. It's a pretty hot pre so you'll want to use the pads on the mic for loud shows, or get some inline attenuators. Great clean pre, you're going to love it!

It's really a nice unit, nice lights :) Slightly off-topic, but you probably know. What setting is 'best'/'normal' as it comes to this L/C/R setting. Is it ok to use PAN? This way levels on both mics are the same, or will it destroy any (attempt) on a stereo-image?
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline bryonsos

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2012, 07:57:00 AM »
I set the M10 at 4.5 and adjust my MixPre to get the levels to -12 to -6. It's a pretty hot pre so you'll want to use the pads on the mic for loud shows, or get some inline attenuators. Great clean pre, you're going to love it!

It's really a nice unit, nice lights :) Slightly off-topic, but you probably know. What setting is 'best'/'normal' as it comes to this L/C/R setting. Is it ok to use PAN? This way levels on both mics are the same, or will it destroy any (attempt) on a stereo-image?

I pan one channel left, the other right. Keeps things simple for later.
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
Pres: CA-Ugly / Naiant Tinyhead / SD MixPre
Decks: Roland R-44 / Sony PCM-M10
GAKables
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 05:02:11 AM »
@bryonsos

I taped my first show yesterday, and boy...that mixpre is hot! I used Milab VM-44 link mics > Micpre-d > M10.

The -20db setting on the mic was OFF/not in use

The Mixpre-d gainsetting was very low (i mean, almost off). Resulting in perfect (..?..) levels....the green light were around -18/-12, the louder sections made the last orange led (0db) lid up. Never saw a red one.

The M10 (line-in) was set to gain 7. (which probably could have been higher as levels went up to around -18).

I have not been able to check the wav.file.

But, if i had used the -20db setting on the mic, would that have given me the possibilities to set the levels higher on the mixpre? In other words, I could actually twist these knobs on the pre a bit more (they were very sensitive this time)? Feels a bit strange , taking off 20db and putting it on again.... (sorry bit noob, but first time these mics and pre, have to learn things ;)

« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 05:09:22 AM by popmarter »
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline bryonsos

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 11:05:04 AM »
Yes, next time turn the -20db switch on your mics. You should be able to set the MixPre ~11:00 then. You're probably going to want to set the M10 lower too, most folks run them at 4-5. Happy taping, it really is a nice unit!
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
Pres: CA-Ugly / Naiant Tinyhead / SD MixPre
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 12:36:34 PM »
Yes, next time turn the -20db switch on your mics. You should be able to set the MixPre ~11:00 then. You're probably going to want to set the M10 lower too, most folks run them at 4-5. Happy taping, it really is a nice unit!

It's a great unit! Really love it. I will use the -20db next time. But as for the recorder....i am confused. If the mixpre remains below 0db (no clipping), is it than not possible to turn the m10 up to near -6db? The levels on the m10 were quite steady (no big peak or whatever, so no risk on clipping there). Or am i missing something here?
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline bryonsos

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 12:47:35 PM »
Yes, next time turn the -20db switch on your mics. You should be able to set the MixPre ~11:00 then. You're probably going to want to set the M10 lower too, most folks run them at 4-5. Happy taping, it really is a nice unit!

It's a great unit! Really love it. I will use the -20db next time. But as for the recorder....i am confused. If the mixpre remains below 0db (no clipping), is it than not possible to turn the m10 up to near -6db? The levels on the m10 were quite steady (no big peak or whatever, so no risk on clipping there). Or am i missing something here?

Search "unity gain M10" here and you'll find hundreds of opinions on this topic. There's a general consensus that if you set the M10 in the 4-5 range, then the deck is neither adding nor removing gain. It's neutral. In my hands, setting the deck at 4.5 and setting the MixPre so that the levels on the deck are hitting -12 to -6 makes a great tape. Typically, the levels on the MixPre will be just "tickling" past the green lights to get the deck to those levels. It may be different on the MixPre D, but the concept is the same. Set the M10 and tape the knob down if you want, then dial in the wanted levels with the preamp.
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
Pres: CA-Ugly / Naiant Tinyhead / SD MixPre
Decks: Roland R-44 / Sony PCM-M10
GAKables
Dead Muppets

My recordings LMA / BT / TTD

Offline Popmarter

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 01:31:18 PM »
Yes, next time turn the -20db switch on your mics. You should be able to set the MixPre ~11:00 then. You're probably going to want to set the M10 lower too, most folks run them at 4-5. Happy taping, it really is a nice unit!

It's a great unit! Really love it. I will use the -20db next time. But as for the recorder....i am confused. If the mixpre remains below 0db (no clipping), is it than not possible to turn the m10 up to near -6db? The levels on the m10 were quite steady (no big peak or whatever, so no risk on clipping there). Or am i missing something here?

Search "unity gain M10" here and you'll find hundreds of opinions on this topic. There's a general consensus that if you set the M10 in the 4-5 range, then the deck is neither adding nor removing gain. It's neutral. In my hands, setting the deck at 4.5 and setting the MixPre so that the levels on the deck are hitting -12 to -6 makes a great tape. Typically, the levels on the MixPre will be just "tickling" past the green lights to get the deck to those levels. It may be different on the MixPre D, but the concept is the same. Set the M10 and tape the knob down if you want, then dial in the wanted levels with the preamp.

I did not know it stays neutral at that point, thanks for pointing that out.

What do you mean by: "Typically, the levels on the MixPre will be just "tickling" past the green lights to get the deck to those levels." ?
You mean, try getting the green lights burning most of the time at max between -12 and -6? (and a few orange ones every now and than?)
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline willndmb

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 02:28:00 PM »

Search "unity gain M10" here and you'll find hundreds of opinions on this topic. There's a general consensus that if you set the M10 in the 4-5 range, then the deck is neither adding nor removing gain. It's neutral. In my hands, setting the deck at 4.5 and setting the MixPre so that the levels on the deck are hitting -12 to -6 makes a great tape. Typically, the levels on the MixPre will be just "tickling" past the green lights to get the deck to those levels. It may be different on the MixPre D, but the concept is the same. Set the M10 and tape the knob down if you want, then dial in the wanted levels with the preamp.
fwiw
when i did a white noise test i found that 4 was balls on perfect for unity
going up/down a number added/took away slightly less then 3db
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 03:22:36 PM »
That test you did on the line in?
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2012, 09:06:03 PM »
That test you did on the line in?
yes
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
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Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 04:56:38 PM »
I also run my M10's at like 3.5>4 :) I use my preamps to dial in the rest ;)
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Offline sk-1

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 08:03:58 PM »
Technically the best way to set levels on the M10 (or any other recorder) is to switch on the mixpre's tone generator and adjust rec level on the M10 until it registers -20dBFS. From memory on my unit that was at about 4.5. This way you'll know that the mixpre's clip level aligns perfectly with the M10's clip level, and you can now just watch the mixpre meters and not worry about the M10.

Pan switches should always be set hard left and hard right, otherwise you won't be recording proper stereo. Turn on the fancy new ch1-2 gain linking and you're good to go! Wish I still had a mixpre :)

Ben

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2012, 06:13:41 AM »
Technically the best way to set levels on the M10 (or any other recorder) is to switch on the mixpre's tone generator and adjust rec level on the M10 until it registers -20dBFS. From memory on my unit that was at about 4.5. This way you'll know that the mixpre's clip level aligns perfectly with the M10's clip level, and you can now just watch the mixpre meters and not worry about the M10.

Pan switches should always be set hard left and hard right, otherwise you won't be recording proper stereo. Turn on the fancy new ch1-2 gain linking and you're good to go! Wish I still had a mixpre :)

Ben

I checked the tone generator and my M10 can be set to near 5 (approx 4.8 ). Setting it to 4 (which is unity gain, sets it to about -23db). There is no way the M10 is gonna record incoming signals to loud (overloading). But.....is this setting not a bit too safe? (I can normalize it ofcourse, but aren't you missing to much setting it this low?). I did my first concert last week, where I ended up setting the M10 to 7. No overload, no nothing and still plenty headroom to normalize it.

Second, what you mean by "turn on the fancy new ch1-2 gain" (is that the Limiter switch setting, setting to LINK?)

Edit: This is what it looks like (for those interested), remember, the small levelknob on the right is set to approx. 4.8 )



« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 03:31:30 PM by popmarter »
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline sk-1

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2012, 04:33:11 AM »
Very late reply, apologies.

From the manual:

"Stereo linking allows Inputs 1 and 2 to be controlled as a single, stereo input. This is useful when stereo microphones or stereo line level signals are used with the MixPre-D. There are two modes of operation for stereo linking, X/Y link and MS stereo...To cycle between linking configurations hold down both Input 1 and Input 2 Buttons and slide the Slate Switch to the Slate position."

I love how Sound Devices can just keep on cramming highly useful features into their boxes. Kind of like Naiant.

Ben




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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 04:50:55 AM »
Thanks Ben , but to be honest, I have not figured out the difference in X/Y link and MS stereo. First time I used this mixpre, I did not use it because i did not want to affect any incoming signal.
Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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Offline rastasean

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2012, 12:15:35 PM »
Thanks Ben , but to be honest, I have not figured out the difference in X/Y link and MS stereo. First time I used this mixpre, I did not use it because i did not want to affect any incoming signal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone_practice
x/y: typically placed at 90° or more to each other.
m/s: This coincident technique employs a bidirectional microphone (with discrete outputs for each of the diaphragms) facing sideways and a cardioid (generally a variety of cardioid, although Alan Blumlein described the usage of an omnidirectional transducer in his original patent) at an angle of 90° facing the sound source.

also helpful: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-FaulknerE.htm
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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2012, 04:53:05 PM »
In this case the designation XY is not a reference to the mic configuration. You can use the XY setting for any stereo configuration, or any situation that requires matched left-right levels, including un-matrixed/raw mid-side. The MS setting should only be used when a true MS mic setup is in use.

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Re: Mixpre-D > M10, best way to set levels.
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 08:16:43 AM »
Thanks for the links, nice read work.  ;D

Currently in use:
Recorders: Edirol R44, Sony M10 & Sony D6
Microphones: Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 (cards) & Nakamichi CM300 (all CP-s)
Preamps: JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b, Naiant IPA & Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use
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