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Offline 1Cylinder

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m/s
« on: November 02, 2012, 08:28:21 AM »
anyone w/ experience running a pair of mics in m/s when recording fob, on stage or @ lip of stage?




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Re: m/s
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 09:36:31 AM »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: m/s
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 12:13:11 PM »
Advanced M/S tip for stage-lip or on-stage:

The sound sources on stage can be lopsided or otherwise off-balanced in level, tone, and/or spatial distribution due to the arrangement of players, gear and other stuff.  Of course it's always best to accommodate that as best as possible with your recording position, but here's a trick which can provide some welcome degree of control after recording- You don't have to use the same M/S ratio for Left and Right channels.  It may be advantageous to experiment with different M/S ratios for each side if you are decoding the raw M/S later and are taking the time to try and dial everything in optimally.   Using a different ratio on one side verses the other will vary both the derived polar pattern and mic angle on that side verses the other.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 10:23:16 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: m/s
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 01:22:14 PM »
Advanced M/S tip for stage-lip or on-stage:

The sound sources on stage can be lopsided or otherwise inbalanced in level, tone, and/or spatial distribution due to the arrangement of players, gear and other stuff.  Of course it's always best to accommodate that as best as possible with your recording position, but here's a trick which can provide some welcome degree of control after recording- You don't have to use the same M/S ratio for Left and Right channels.  It may be advantageous to experiment with different M/S ratios for each side if you are decoding the raw M/S later and are taking the time to try and dial everything in optimally.   Using a different ratio on one side verses the other will vary both the derived polar pattern and mic angle on that side verses the other.

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Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: m/s
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 02:41:52 PM »
I love midside with subcard in the middle. Especially onstage or FOB. Not sure what kind of recorder you are using but with the HS-P82 you can decode the M/S on the recorder in the mixer setup and really dial in what you think is best sounding.

Offline page

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Re: m/s
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 04:33:09 PM »
Advanced M/S tip for stage-lip or on-stage:

The sound sources on stage can be lopsided or otherwise inbalanced in level, tone, and/or spatial distribution due to the arrangement of players, gear and other stuff.  Of course it's always best to accommodate that as best as possible with your recording position, but here's a trick which can provide some welcome degree of control after recording- You don't have to use the same M/S ratio for Left and Right channels.  It may be advantageous to experiment with different M/S ratios for each side if you are decoding the raw M/S later and are taking the time to try and dial everything in optimally.   Using a different ratio on one side verses the other will vary both the derived polar pattern and mic angle on that side verses the other.

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+1

I've done that before and while it works, it takes some experimentation to really dial it in. My best tip related to it is to make a quick map of whats on stage (including people, instruments, and amps). That way as you play with it, you have some sort of reference. Remember which direction things pull when mixing in/out the side component.

I love midside with subcard in the middle. Especially onstage or FOB.

+1

The best midside tapes I've heard were all done with subs as the center. Enough directional tendencies that you can get stereo and a full sound that you only get from an open pattern.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: m/s
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 10:09:08 PM »
I have been recording almost 18 years and I have NEVER recorded M/S :'( :( I need to buy an mk8/mk6 and really give it a go. I am usually in the FOB/DFC Sweet Spot at most shows, and I KNOW M/S would just KILL IT EVERYTIME when Im in that location. So when I finally do snag an mk8/6, Im going to need LOTS of help in decoding it :) I have WaveLab 6 so I have quit a few VST Plugins to decode M/S, but I want to pull the best possible tape EVERYTIME I run M/S :)

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Offline Tom McCreadie

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Re: m/s
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2012, 06:43:06 PM »
Advanced M/S tip for stage-lip or on-stage:

The sound sources on stage can be lopsided or otherwise off-balanced in level, tone, and/or spatial distribution due to the arrangement of players, gear and other stuff.  Of course it's always best to accommodate that as best as possible with your recording position, but here's a trick which can provide some welcome degree of control after recording- You don't have to use the same M/S ratio for Left and Right channels.  It may be advantageous to experiment with different M/S ratios for each side if you are decoding the raw M/S later and are taking the time to try and dial everything in optimally.   Using a different ratio on one side verses the other will vary both the derived polar pattern and mic angle on that side verses the other.

Probably misreading, what you intended, Gutbaucket,  but I find this post confusing as it seems to imply that one can use a chosen M/S ratio on a _single_ channel?, You need two signal channels - the M and the S <grin>  - to apply M/S sum & diff. matrixing on. Also, changing an M/S ratio can't correct a signal that's "lopsided" in the left vs. right sense. For such a correction, you'd just tweak in post the relative levels of the X(left) or Y(right) decoded signals.

As you said, varying the M/S ratio certainly changes soundstage width and perspective. For illustration, idealized mic patterns assumed, combining a cardioid M mic [polar pattern: "V = 0.5 + 0.5cos(theta)"] with a Fig-8 S mic ["0.0 + 1.0cos(theta)"] yields the following scenario's:

--------------------------------------------------------------
M level    =>          virtual XY pair
(rel.to S)    included angle         mic pattern
--------------------------------------------------------------
+6dB       =>    90.1 deg       0.414 + 0.586cos(theta)
+3dB       =>  109.5 deg       0.366 + 0.634cos(theta)
 0dB        =>  126.9 deg       0.309 + 0.691cos(theta)    <-    supercardioid
-3dB        =>  141.0 deg       0.250 + 0.751cos(theta)    <-    hypercardioid 
-6dB        =>  151.9 deg       0.196 + 0.804cos(theta)   
------------------------------------------------------------

If a recording made with on-the-fly decoding to XY turned out to have had an inappropriate M/S ratio, then it's easy to adjust this in the DAW in post via a double sum & diff. matrixing step:
mic input MS  ->  XY in DAW  ->(rebalance L, R)->    X'Y'  ->(sum & diff.)->  M'S'   ->(rebalance M, S)->   M"S" ->(sum & diff.)->  X"Y"

Again, I'm sure you know all  this stuff, so apologies if I've missed the point..

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: m/s
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2012, 09:07:48 PM »
Hi Tom, welcome to the forum.

You are correct in that you need both Mid and Side signals to do the decoding, but there is nothing which prohibits you from mixing Mid and Side with one ratio to derive the Left channel and a different ratio to derive the Right channel.  Of course, most of the time a symmetrical microphone pair is desirable- both in pickup pattern and in microphone angle, so usually the same ratio is used for each side.  However, using examples from the table you posted, you could derive the two as follows:
--------------------------------------------------------------
              M level    =>          virtual XY pair
            (rel.to S)    included angle         mic pattern
--------------------------------------------------------------
Left  =   +6dB       =>    90.1 deg       0.414 + 0.586cos(theta)
Right=   -3dB        =>  141.0 deg       0.250 + 0.751cos(theta)

You could even derive three or more different virtual microphones, although the lack of seperation between them wouldn't make that very useful in most cases.

I do something like that sometimes with an ambisonic microphone, which is basically fancy M/S with four input signals instead of two.  The math behind it gets complex, but the decoding software provides easy real time control over pickup pattern and direction of each virtual microphone, allowing me to tweak each for best pattern as well as horizontal and vertical angle, independent of the other, all while listening to playback in real time.  Doing that has been really useful when recording a jazz trio on-stage, and getting the most balanced sound from the guitar on one side, the bass on the other, and the drum kit in the middle.  It even helps balance the sound of the different parts of the drum kit. It’s interesting to tweak things by ear, then to take a look at the resulting patterns and angles.  The visual feedback helps as it can be easy to lose your bearings by adjusting blindly.  Like Page mentions, a good diagram or mental map of the arrangement on stage helps. 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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