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Poll

Which preamp sounds better to you?

I prefer preamp 1
8 (42.1%)
I prefer preamp 2
10 (52.6%)
I can't tell the difference
0 (0%)
I like them both equally
1 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Author Topic: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly (new samples)  (Read 16952 times)

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Offline acidjack

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2013, 04:43:47 PM »
"GS-style comp".  Stop, you guys are killing me  ;D  I recall one such GS comp of vocal mics where five large diaphragm mics were arrayed on a single vocalist who was less than two feet away.  Needless to same, you can't get big ol' LDCs anywhere near coincident on a nearfield source.  The variance in angle there is much greater than a few inches apart on a stand recording a PA (not that this comp used a stand, but you get the idea).

I'm not holding them up as the be-all, end-all, Jon, but unless I'm mistaken, most of their comps are much more controlled than ours are, starting with that they are recording actual instruments and things rather than, as is often the case here, a PA system. 
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
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Offline jagraham

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2013, 09:43:20 PM »
...this or that gear is awesome, usually with the only reasoning behind the comment being that it happens to be what gear the person owns.

 ;D  Classic

^ This is true and funny.  Also I would guess every single one of us is guilty of it. 
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2013, 10:14:56 PM »
...this or that gear is awesome, usually with the only reasoning behind the comment being that it happens to be what gear the person owns.

 ;D  Classic

^ This is true and funny.  Also I would guess every single one of us is guilty of it. 

Very true. You all know me very well, you know that im NOT VERY BIASED at all :P ;D

For real tho I like ALL GEAR as long as it sounds good ;) I often DL CA14 sources, and any AKG>Aerco and MBHO Source. Also ANY MG source as well!!!
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Offline spyder9

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2013, 01:10:07 AM »
I liked preamp #2

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2013, 01:39:50 PM »
Its so fucking funny that I suggest the same thing and people piss all over me lol you suggest it and it seems like a good idea. Wow makes me feel real welcome around here.

Who was "pissing all over you"?  I think the only point, generally, about people coming in and saying "this is an invalid comp" is that it's kind of a BS not-helpful comment. Bryon said exactly how he did the "comp" here. He didn't say he used the world's most scientific methods. He's just trying to help out by offering up what he did.  Maybe it's useful, maybe it isn't. He's not an idiot - he and everyone else knows that more controlled variables would make it better.  I completely agree with you that this is not a scientifically accurate, GS-style comp. I don't think it was represented as such.

Most people don't bother to post any comps at all. They just run around saying this or that gear is awesome, usually with the only reasoning behind the comment being that it happens to be what gear the person owns. I for one would rather hear imperfect comps than more of that.

When the differences are this substantial there is a fundamental problem with the comp. Its obvious. You would rather hear imperfect comps then comps that are actually done correctly? Really? I for one want to hear comps that are actually done correctly so people can actually make a educated decision on the gear they buy. You can't  educate anyone based on false comparisons. I understand and appreciate the effort being taken here.  That's why I even bothered to say anything in the first place. I would love someone to do a balanced and fair test. The simple truth of the mater is I doubt there will be that much difference when its done correctly. And that it will come down to a mater of feature set and not so much function, between the two preamps.
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Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2013, 03:59:18 AM »
late in the game... I think I like pre 1 better
sounds fuller open and less muddy
at least in song 1


still want to know which is which


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Offline DiggerinVA

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2013, 09:24:23 AM »
bryonsos I could send you my b-3's they are the red label though, as you know.
Sony C38B's --> Lunatec V2-->PMD661
B-3's --> Tinybox 1.5 --> PCM-M10

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2013, 10:14:16 AM »
When the differences are this substantial there is a fundamental problem with the comp. Its obvious. You would rather hear imperfect comps then comps that are actually done correctly? Really? I for one want to hear comps that are actually done correctly so people can actually make a educated decision on the gear they buy. You can't  educate anyone based on false comparisons. I understand and appreciate the effort being taken here.  That's why I even bothered to say anything in the first place. I would love someone to do a balanced and fair test. The simple truth of the mater is I doubt there will be that much difference when its done correctly. And that it will come down to a mater of feature set and not so much function, between the two preamps.

Your declaration that "there must be a fundamental problem" with the comp is just your opinion.
It has not been established as fact.  The comp could be fine, and it could be the character of the gear, or a problem with the gear.  And, in any case, not everyone even agrees which version they prefer.

I can't recall a comp here that you haven't dismissed as invalid.

People who constantly piss and moan about other people's comps need to contribute comps of their own.

Unfortunately you cant do a comp like this and have the results mean anything. Unless you use the same exact mics and placement. And the same exact source material for both recordings. Meaning it cant be a live performance you are recording. Why? because there are way to many variables.

We get it - you believe all live performance comps are invalid. 

Rather than pissing in every live comp thread (which is what most comps here are - because that is what we do), perhaps you should start your own thread to expound upon how all comps are invalid, and leave those of us who value live performance comps to enjoy and discuss them in a way that is actually productive.

It is fine to suggest improvements in methodology, but only within the context of what is reasonably possible. When you dismiss the entire premise - as you have done - the rest of your contribution is moot.  It's just pissing all over the thread, and I think it contributes nothing, and is actually counter-productive to the goal of people doing and sharing more comps.

As for this comp, I wonder if playing the line-out of a playback device into each preamp might produce a useful result?  From an impedance standpoint, it would not be ideal.  But nothing ever is ;)

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Offline bryonsos

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2013, 10:28:46 AM »
bryonsos I could send you my b-3's they are the red label though, as you know.

I may take you up on that, thanks!

Mic builders - mine are high sens mics with the 2.2k mod, his are low sens mics with no mod (I think). Would that be valid for a side by side comp?
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Offline DiggerinVA

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2013, 11:26:52 AM »
they are the 2.2K mod done by Darktrain.
Sony C38B's --> Lunatec V2-->PMD661
B-3's --> Tinybox 1.5 --> PCM-M10

Offline Todd R

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2013, 12:02:20 PM »
A few thoughts on comparisons, in general.

I certainly can understand how Chris feels, as people may make decisions and more specifically decisions not to buy his gear based on a less-than-ideal comp.  Then again, people will often do dumb things, and people will use poor judgement in purchasing decisions, what can you do?

The thing is though, I don't think an imperfect comp is useless and you can only rely on perfect comps.  Sure, if we could design and implement one perfect comp, that is all you need.  Trouble is, even then, people might make choices on gear when it was actually the source material that was the problem.  Meaning, they really didn't like the sound of the source material, and the amplifier which amplified it perfectly sounded bad to them and the amplifier that had an imperfect frequency response actually managed to correct the bad source material sound and make it sound better to that listener.  Does that make the imperfect response amplifier a better amp?

To me, all comps should be taken with a grain of salt.  At the same time, it is good to have comps, and 1000 imperfect comps can be very useful. So any given comp is not perfect, if on every single one, the high end sounds distorted, it gets easier to associate that distorted high end with the piece of gear (say a mic preamp), if all other variables keep changing.  Location, sound material, different mics used, different venues, different soundmen, whatever.  If in 1000 trials you keep getting the result that Preamp X has a harsh high end, it statistically is very unlikely that every one of those flawed tests skewed in the direction of making Preamp X's high end sound harsh, when the only variable that stays constant is the choice of that particular Preamp X.  It becomes pretty apparent (likely) that the harsh high end is just coming from Preamp X.

So to me, even imperfect comps have value.  People around here always say to listen to gear on the Live Music Archive to see if you like it.  To me, listening to one show on the Archive tells me nothing, especially since I have no idea how it actually sounded in the venue.  But, say I'm interested in a particular mic, if I can listen to a couple dozen shows with that mic fed into a Lunatec V3 which I've owned and operated for years, and for those same shows I can also listen to a mic I know well (like the km140/km184, AKG 480/ck61, Milab Vm44) also fed into a V3, I can start to get a sense of the mic I'm considering.  Not perfect, and not all that useful with 1 show, but if I can hear those admittedly horrible and completely unscientific and useless comps, and I can do it 20 or 30 times -- if I start hearing the same pattern, I get more comfortable associating it with the mic and not one of the other variables.

And on the way we tend to do comps here:  people simply feel more comfortable hearing comps in environments and usage patterns that reflect how they will use the gear.  Taping a stereo in your living room just doesn't feel right, even though it might be a much more valid way of running a comp.  Also, on that end, it may be that there is good reason for running comps the way you want to run the gear -- say recording PA-amplified music.  If I test my preamp using my home stereo, I might be using high levels of gain, when in a concert setting I'm using much lower levels of gain.  An amplifier circuit might sound different or have different levels of noise or distortion at very different gain levels.  If I can't reproduce those sound levels in my living room, the comp isn't necessarily helping me.  Also, if you have a preamp with transformers, if you expect to be running the preamp at levels where the transformers are saturating, say at the low end (and if you want that saturation effect as part of your recordings), it could be difficult to get to the needed sound pressure levels to get into saturation mode when recording your stereo in your living room.

Which all said, might mean that the "perfect comp" that someone might put out there as the model to follow, does not get at the aspects of the gear that someone is interested in.  So it might be perfect scientifically, but it is useless to that person.

Bottom line -- to me, lots and lots of imperfect comps are better than none at all, and are probably even better than "the one perfect comp".
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2013, 01:03:36 PM »
When the differences are this substantial there is a fundamental problem with the comp. Its obvious. You would rather hear imperfect comps then comps that are actually done correctly? Really? I for one want to hear comps that are actually done correctly so people can actually make a educated decision on the gear they buy. You can't  educate anyone based on false comparisons. I understand and appreciate the effort being taken here.  That's why I even bothered to say anything in the first place. I would love someone to do a balanced and fair test. The simple truth of the mater is I doubt there will be that much difference when its done correctly. And that it will come down to a mater of feature set and not so much function, between the two preamps.

Your declaration that "there must be a fundamental problem" with the comp is just your opinion.
It has not been established as fact.  The comp could be fine, and it could be the character of the gear, or a problem with the gear.  And, in any case, not everyone even agrees which version they prefer.

I can't recall a comp here that you haven't dismissed as invalid.

People who constantly piss and moan about other people's comps need to contribute comps of their own.

Unfortunately you cant do a comp like this and have the results mean anything. Unless you use the same exact mics and placement. And the same exact source material for both recordings. Meaning it cant be a live performance you are recording. Why? because there are way to many variables.

We get it - you believe all live performance comps are invalid. 

Rather than pissing in every live comp thread (which is what most comps here are - because that is what we do), perhaps you should start your own thread to expound upon how all comps are invalid, and leave those of us who value live performance comps to enjoy and discuss them in a way that is actually productive.

It is fine to suggest improvements in methodology, but only within the context of what is reasonably possible. When you dismiss the entire premise - as you have done - the rest of your contribution is moot.  It's just pissing all over the thread, and I think it contributes nothing, and is actually counter-productive to the goal of people doing and sharing more comps.

As for this comp, I wonder if playing the line-out of a playback device into each preamp might produce a useful result?  From an impedance standpoint, it would not be ideal.  But nothing ever is ;)

I respect your opinion. I should have just kept out of it. I feel the comp is not fair to my gear at all and I said so. I dont actually post much of anything about comps on here and I have not done so in so long I cant remember the last time I did. Everybody can do comps the way they want but when its my gear your using for a comp I would think people would at least listen to my logic.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2013, 01:34:02 PM »
Well said Todd, on the pitfalls of any live comparison and the appropriate way to use LMA sources for gear comps.
x2

I only want to comment on the thing about using two pairs of identical mics instead of the same pair.  In a single sample comparison like this (verses getting a feel for the average differences across multiple comps, like Todd mentions), using seperate pairs of mics throws up red flags for me, even if the are the same model mounted close together.  The two pairs of mics may sound different themselves, especially more variable / less expensive mics like B3s. Plus they may have been mounted or pointed slightly differently which may or may not have gone unnoticed, etc.  Although it limits the usefulness of the recording being made to comp material only and essentially ruins it as a music recording, I prefer these simple comps done in a way similar to what Bryon did here-  switching only the device under test (the preamp only in this case) during the same song and repeating that switch over a number of different songs.  That eliminates as many extra variables as possible, while keeping the source material as similar as possible, allowing one to compare alternate choruses, similar verses, etc. from the same song.
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2013, 05:29:06 PM »

Bottom line -- to me, lots and lots of imperfect comps are better than none at all, and are probably even better than "the one perfect comp".


Rather than pissing in every live comp thread (which is what most comps here are - because that is what we do), perhaps you should start your own thread to expound upon how all comps are invalid, and leave those of us who value live performance comps to enjoy and discuss them in a way that is actually productive.



+t to both of you. I honestly can't believe how difficult some people make this out to be.

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Re: Naiant Tinyhead vs. CA-Ugly
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2013, 08:01:34 PM »
I feel the comp is not fair to my gear at all and I said so.

Why would you feel that, when Jon apparently doesn't feel the same?  Have you already decided, without being told which is which, that your rpeamp is going to "lose" the comparison?  Apparently you still have lots of orders, your lead times don't seem to be getting shorter.

 

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