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Author Topic: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres  (Read 8260 times)

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2013, 10:55:07 AM »

In fact, I'd argue that EQ tends to introduce artifiacts, and smears details and the subtle timing required to accurately recreate a detailed soundstage.  Though it may not always seem that way - a cymbal may seem more solidly fixed in the soundstage because you EQ it and bring it's frequencies up.

This is interesting to me, I've been under the impression that you could EQ a suitably flat source to sound however you want. I hadn't thought that a pre could have that sort of influence on the overall image/soundstage on the recording.

Yep, absolutely.  The algorithms that filter sound must be implemented in code.  Both the algorithm and the specific implementation can have profound impacts on lost detail.

I think those things are noticed more when you record non-PA material that has a complex soundstage.  But it also applies to PA material near or on stage.

As far as gain from a preamp, there are bunches of ways to get "gain".  Some sound better than others.

I think a few things all need to come together.  You need to have a playback system that can image in 3d.  It's funny that I put this first, but if your playback isn't capable of accurate reproduction, then you won't know how good your recordings really are, or what impact changes have on the outcome.  Also related to that is our age related hearing loss (and how we compensate!), and the overall tone of our playback.  If your playback can't resolve low frequencies well, and makes it sound muddy, then you won't want it in your recordings.

A good 2 channel playback will image way outside the speakers.  And it will have depth fore-aft.  And it might also have vertical components.  I've had a great playback for a lonngg time, but it wasn't until I switched to VR4's that the 3d thing became such a big deal.  And it also helped that I got rid of my preamp.  Eliminating that from the chain had huge benefits - jaw dropper.  There is now a large following of folks, and online communities dedicated to the practice of running DA's straight into amps (or with minimal attenuation and impedance matching, etc).

There is a lot of subtle timing and arrival information that must be accurately captured and reproduced to create that 3d soundstage.  Any processing or mathmatical operation tends to lose that detail.  And that 3d soundstage won't typically reproduce well on headphones because the two channels need to interact in free air.

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Online Gutbucket

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 11:56:17 AM »
Any processing or mathmatical operation tends to lose that detail.

Not necessarily, though it certainly can do so quite easily unless done mindfully with good tools and monitoring.  Like most things in life, it's a game of degree played in shades of grey, rather than in easier to manage black & white absolutes.

For the lionshare of recordings made around here, appropriate EQ can make them better, assuming the tools, monitoring and the EQ pilot all fly right.  Done correctly the improvement can be dramatic and orders of magnitude greater than the potential negative aspects.  Doing it carefully and correctly with good tools is the key.  I think we all know how wrong it can go.
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Offline jbell

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 07:50:25 PM »
If you want to hear my source, my mics were mounted 2 inches above Allyns. 

http://archive.org/details/NRPS2012-10-25.nrps_2012-10-25
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 07:58:15 PM by jbell »
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 08:42:37 PM »
Cool!

Just digging into these two first sets a bit, I find that one of the sources is phase reversed from the other.


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Offline achalsey

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 08:58:34 PM »
Cool!

Just digging into these two first sets a bit, I find that one of the sources is phase reversed from the other.

Uh oh.  This comp is falling apart.   :P  Not sure why that happened.  Would this happen if my L/R mics were mixed up?  That is a possibility.

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2013, 09:24:00 PM »
Cool!

Just digging into these two first sets a bit, I find that one of the sources is phase reversed from the other.

Uh oh.  This comp is falling apart.   :P  Not sure why that happened.  Would this happen if my L/R mics were mixed up?  That is a possibility.

I think he's comparing it to jbells source?

Offline achalsey

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2013, 09:31:47 PM »
Cool!

Just digging into these two first sets a bit, I find that one of the sources is phase reversed from the other.

Uh oh.  This comp is falling apart.   :P  Not sure why that happened.  Would this happen if my L/R mics were mixed up?  That is a possibility.

I think he's comparing it to jbells source?

Yeah he is, but I'm not sure why they're reversed.  I just checked another recent source using the same equipment and they're in phase.  I'm thinking  there is a possibility my right and left mics were in the wrong input and I didn't correct it in post.  Would that cause the polarities to be reversed between the two sources?

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 09:40:55 PM »
This isn't an L/R error.  Someone's rig has a polarity issue on both channels.

It could simply be a cable that was soldered incorrectly.

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Offline achalsey

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 09:48:21 PM »
This isn't an L/R error.  Someone's rig has a polarity issue on both channels.

It could simply be a cable that was soldered incorrectly.

Weird.  Checked both of our Yonder sources from a couple weeks ago and they have the same polarity.

Offline jbell

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2013, 05:52:52 AM »
Which source has the issue?? 

This isn't an L/R error.  Someone's rig has a polarity issue on both channels.

It could simply be a cable that was soldered incorrectly.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2013, 09:11:23 AM »
Okay, which one of you guys put your batteries in backwards?

If we had a third source, we could use it to compare but there isn't one on archive.  Of course that wouldn't be conclusive.

One thing to look at are drum hits.  I'd expect the first peak impulses to be positive.  In the case of jmbell's source, I see that those are always negative.  So it is fairly likely that source has the polarity issue.

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2013, 09:48:18 AM »
How excatly can you tell that polarity is reversed??  If it is my source the problem would have be the Tinybox or 1/8 to 1/8 cable.  Here is another source with the same setup is the polarity off here??  I'm not understanding how you have determined this.

http://archive.org/details/ymsb2013-01-25.ymsb2013-01-25

Okay, which one of you guys put your batteries in backwards?

If we had a third source, we could use it to compare but there isn't one on archive.  Of course that wouldn't be conclusive.

One thing to look at are drum hits.  I'd expect the first peak impulses to be positive.  In the case of jmbell's source, I see that those are always negative.  So it is fairly likely that source has the polarity issue.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 09:58:57 AM by jbell »
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2013, 10:06:37 AM »
The yonder source is a poor indictator because there is no percussion and no loud applause.

Sound waves are composed of rising and falling pressure gradients - the up and down you see in the waveform when you zoom way in. Up is positive, down negative.  A positive pressure should result in a positive voltage being recorded.  When the microphone diaphragm is pushed in, a positive voltage should result and be recorded.

When that positive voltage is sent to your speaker, the cone should move outward, sending that positive pressure wave.

You might try recording the clap of your hands with the m10 internal mics, and comparing it against your rig.

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Offline Ultfris101

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2013, 10:25:33 AM »
Where was there a tinybox in the rig?  OP lists PFAs on both sources?  ???

I think he's referring to Jbell's source which isn't part of comp just happened to be in same location: http://archive.org/details/NRPS2012-10-25.nrps_2012-10-25
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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2013, 11:41:05 AM »
Okay, this is getting off topic, but as it is an issue, I'm curious to figure it out.  Though, we both will be at Railroad Earth tomorrow with other tapers so should be able to figure it out then.

But a question about seeing polarity: with a positive polarity, that will mean the peaks will generally be positive correct?  These might not be the best examples, but here are some shots of one track from a couple weeks ago.  I thought this would be positive.  Not sure though.

http://imgur.com/a/2N2Im

 

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