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Author Topic: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres  (Read 6415 times)

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2013, 11:45:31 AM »
so I got busy at work and had this composed. I'm hitting post anyway even though parts are redundant now.  :P


In fact, I'd argue that EQ tends to introduce artifiacts, and smears details and the subtle timing required to accurately recreate a detailed soundstage.  Though it may not always seem that way - a cymbal may seem more solidly fixed in the soundstage because you EQ it and bring it's frequencies up.

This is interesting to me, I've been under the impression that you could EQ a suitably flat source to sound however you want. I hadn't thought that a pre could have that sort of influence on the overall image/soundstage on the recording.

It's less of an issue with spot micing as you define placement in the soundstage later, but for "room recordings" that sort of stuff is largely set in stone when you do the placement of gear and your downstream gear is retaining detail or warping it in some way. Both approaches have benefits, it's just a personal preference issue. I agree though, EQ definitely has the potential to introduce artifacts such as smear. It's not always, and sometimes thats ok, but everything you do (including setup and gear chains through post production) will affect what you start with and what you can get later. I find it's a trade; sometimes it's worth trading detail for euphoria and smear, and other times it's not.



Okay, which one of you guys put your batteries in backwards?

If we had a third source, we could use it to compare but there isn't one on archive.  Of course that wouldn't be conclusive.

One thing to look at are drum hits.  I'd expect the first peak impulses to be positive.  In the case of jmbell's source, I see that those are always negative.  So it is fairly likely that source has the polarity issue.

How excatly can you tell that polarity is reversed??  If it is my source the problem would have be the Tinybox or 1/8 to 1/8 cable.  Here is another source with the same setup is the polarity off here??  I'm not understanding how you have determined this.

Zoom in on a drum hit. Negative polarity is generally a non-starter in terms of problems, and it's certainly fixable in post by flipping the polarity. It could have been caused by a bunch of things, a recorder preamp pin expectation, cable wiring flips, even feeding a negative voltage to capsules would induce polarity issues (I vaguely remember the lemosax could do that with some capsules unless cables were wired differently). Two things to keep in mind: 1) Keep polarity together (don't have a left channel as positive and a right as negative). You should be able to hear it, but it has a tendency to hose the soundstage of a recording. 2) Don't mix negative polarity, you end up creating nasty cancellation results. That's an oversimplification, but thats the two reasons to use positive polarity, otherwise as long as your two channels don't get mixed with another set of mics or a sbd and you keep both channels as the same polarity, it doesn't (really) matter.

But a question about seeing polarity: with a positive polarity, that will mean the peaks will generally be positive correct?  These might not be the best examples, but here are some shots of one track from a couple weeks ago.  I thought this would be positive.  Not sure though.

http://imgur.com/a/2N2Im

zoom in more. Create a sharp drum hit or hand clap and look.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2013, 12:57:30 PM »
zoom in more. Create a sharp drum hit or hand clap and look.

If polarity is correct when you do this, the big initial transient peak on such a source will be seen going up before going down.  That inital transient is hard to identify on a less percussive sounds, and easier on a sharp transient if you zoom in enough.

You can check relative polarity between two mics of a stereo pair by summing them to mono and listening while inverting polarity on one of them.  The correct relative polarity will have more apparent bass.  You should be able to hear this in stereo without summing to mono as well (correct relative polarity may also sound less 'out-of-phase' up top in stereo), but it's more obvious when summing to mono.  Switching polarity and listening to the result is a good idea when mixing multiple microphones anyway, since multiple mics can be in correct relative phase but may be phase shifted in relation to each other due to different locations of the microphones and different path lenghts of sound reaching them.  'Correct' in that case is simply the choice which sounds better.
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Offline achalsey

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2013, 02:20:48 PM »
Okay, what about this.  Three strong drum hits.


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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2013, 03:15:02 PM »
^^
Those are definitely in correct relative polarity to each other since both go up and down at the same time.  And I think in correct absolute polarity as well, although the transients aren't especially sharp or distinct enough to be certain. But as stated previously, absolute polarity of a single pair doesn't really matter much in the real world, except to tweako audiophiles who convince themselves that it does, and the sin there tends to be disregarding other things which matter far more.  Relative polarity between channels is what really does matter, irrespective of of how many channels there are total.

Ears matter more than eyes when it comes to listening.
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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2013, 04:30:36 PM »
How about the polarity of these files??  Same source as the NRPS, but different recorder DR-2d.  These are some drum hits
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 04:42:35 PM by jbell »
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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2013, 04:52:08 PM »
I only have one set of mics at the moment!!  Would I be able to tell by looking at a wave file of this being recorded with my mics??  There is no way to figure this out from looking at recordings??  Looking at the files eleven posted it is pretty clear something is going on.

It's nearly impossible to say with a program source.  Take this and playback through your system (be careful not to play too loud, it can be a little hard on tweeters), compare with a mic of known polarity because your playback system could be inverted:

http://www.naiant.com/images/rect_sine.wav
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 05:05:28 PM by jbell »
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2013, 05:04:38 PM »
When trying to anylize an existing recording, you need to find a section with far sharper transients.  Look for sections which appear similar to this, before zooming in on the leading edge of a peak-



..and like this when you zoom in enough to decern which direction the transient goes initially (upwards or downwards- upwards in these examples, meaning positive polarity)



With Jon's rectified sine sample, half of each wave is inverted so all the excursion is in the same direction from what is normally the center zero-crossing points.   If you take a look at the resulting waveform after that sample is played through your stereo and recorded with your rig, you will see a similar wave form whch is not as clean as the original, but the polarity of the signal should be apparent by zooming into any part of the waveform and comparing it's orientation to the original sample.
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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2013, 05:19:31 PM »
Wavelab6 has a phase scope can that be used to determine polarity?
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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2013, 06:59:45 PM »
Understood.  Which is why I mentioned the waveform would appear somewhat similar, but not identical.

To be clear for others reading, there will be zero crossings in the recording of the stereo playing back the rectified sample, but as Jon notes it should be easily apparent whether the pointy bits of the waveform go downwards and the rounded bits go upwards or vice versa.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2013, 09:14:48 PM »
Okay, what about this.  Three strong drum hits.

The true test is a wook with a tambourine.

Record that, and post a sample.  Then we'll know.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 09:17:26 PM by it-goes-to-eleven »

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2013, 09:16:52 PM »
I only have one set of mics at the moment!! 

You also have the internals on your m10.

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2013, 12:44:04 AM »
Okay, what about this.  Three strong drum hits.

The true test is a wook with a tambourine.

Record that, and post a sample.  Then we'll know.

 ;D  Luckily during the winter there aren't too many of those indoors.  Come spring and some outdoor shows, I'll get back to you.

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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2013, 04:57:56 AM »
I like them both too. The V2 is brighter, but the 680 has a fuller bottom IMHO. I believe I'd leave the V2 at home and EQ if needed. Thanks for this!

If sound were bourbon...

PFA > V2 has that Blanton's smoothness
PFA > Direct is Woodford Reserve...clean

From checking Achalsey's LMA sources...I'm gonna continue dragging the V2 to the show too...


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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2013, 01:57:05 PM »
So we ran test on our gear at RRE last night and determined they both have the same polarity!!  Not sure what happened at the NRPS show.
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Re: If we're talking useless unscientific comps: V2 vs. 680 pres
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2013, 02:46:29 PM »
Top is my AKG > V2 > 680, bottom is John's MK 4 > tinybox > M10 (> 680).  They're obviously in phase with each other, and as far as I can tell, have positive polarity.



Zoomed In:



Different part:


 

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