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Author Topic: on-stage taping  (Read 25184 times)

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DaryanLenz

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on-stage taping
« on: March 18, 2003, 01:31:26 PM »
What's mic config do you guys usually run on-stage?  I was thinking xy or ortf, but was curious.  This is for OM Trio if that helps.

Daryan

Offline Craig T

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Re:on-stage taping
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2003, 02:32:19 PM »
x/y, m/s (which is essentially x/y that you can adjust the angle in post), blumlein (fig8's x/y 90*).  of course m/s & blumlein are only an option if you have a fig8 cap.

ortf exaggerates the L/R separation, I like to hear the music "float" between my speakers, not have one instrument come out of one and another out of the other.

don't worry about getting your mic stand in the center of the stage.  You'll want to use your ears to find a spot where you'll pick up the best balance between the instruments, their amps, and the monitors (if the band uses them).  I try to keep the monitors out of the recording since they tend to screw up the image, but if the band uses any electronic instruments (ie. keyboard, synth) you may need to get some monitor in your mics.

good luck,

Craig T.
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Offline Jason Brantley

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Re:on-stage taping
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2003, 03:59:22 PM »
Hey Craig,

Finally getting around to listening to that SKB from 2/21/03 you were generous enough to send us.  

Great example of a M/S stage tape.  Sounds GREAT!  That ADK UA5 combo sounds great considering for the price point.

Thanks again for sending it our way.

Peace,

Jason Brantley
jason@sonicsense.com

Offline creekfreak

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Re:on-stage taping
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2003, 06:30:12 PM »
I would like to know more about on stage taping. Where do you set up, what exactly are you picking up on stage? Best configs, stand height, etc.
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Offline achalsey

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2011, 06:22:54 PM »
Quick question...(just going to bump this since it the first on stage thread that search came up with..)

how high do people normally run on-stage?  I was really hoping to try it tonight but my DIY stand out of a 5 dollar walmart lamp will only be running the mics about a foot and a half off the ground in their mounts.  I'm hoping to get a SBD as well so I'm not really worried about vocals.  Its an upbeat all strings bluegrass band just FYI.


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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2011, 06:28:21 PM »
Waist high for strings.  I try to run above the kick drum but below cymbals from rock music.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2011, 07:50:23 PM »
Waist high for strings.  I try to run above the kick drum but below cymbals from rock music.

I agree. I normally run about 1'>1.5' above the stage monitors :)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2011, 08:56:25 PM »
Waist high for strings.  I try to run above the kick drum but below cymbals from rock music.

I agree. I normally run about 1'>1.5' above the stage monitors :)

Same here. 

I'll add that spaced omnis can work really work well on-stage too. 


I ran three simultaneous on-stage rigs last night for an instrumental trio (guitar left, drums center, acoustic bass right):
1) Three L/C/R spaced omnis, ~29" between each
2) M/S ADK TL's
3) Tetramic (basically advanced 3-dimentinal M/S)

The ADKs and Tetramic were on the same stand, Tetramic on-top at about snare height, in-line with the snare and just right of the kick.

The omnis were closer and a bit higher, miniature mics gaff taped to aluminum welding rods that I can bend into position however I like and which are near invisible from the audience with the lights down.  I'll try and remeber to post a couple photos after I get home tonight.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2011, 10:46:01 PM »
photos-
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2011, 10:50:59 PM »
But like Brian notes, I'd prefer to run higher if it was a string band.  Bear attached his omnis to the FOH mic stands for his O&ITW recordings back when and that stuff sounds great to me.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2011, 10:52:44 PM »
Nice pics!
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2011, 10:55:45 PM »
Well, pretty crappy pics IMO, but at least I finally remembered to take a few of my mic setup.  They ain't gonna to win no photo journalism awards, but thanks!
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Offline bugg100

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2011, 11:04:45 PM »
hey gutbucket, what stand are the adk's and tetramic mounted on. that looks like a good stable mic stand for onstage that should be lighter than my stand with weighted base....

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2011, 12:13:10 AM »
hey gutbucket, what stand are the adk's and tetramic mounted on. that looks like a good stable mic stand for onstage that should be lighter than my stand with weighted base....

some early discussion of that back in http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=100989.0

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2011, 12:21:57 AM »
^^^^
that probably covers it.
(just finished typing..haven't followed link)


It's a folding small floor-fill light stand base with a thumb-scew tightened socket that secures a vertical stanchion. I bought it as a set with a short 2' single-telescoping Bogen extension that extends 14" or so.  That extension is what I usually use for this, but is not what you see in the photo above. This time I used a cusom bar I made a few years ago specifically to hold the big TLs as close to coincident and to the center of the tube as possible.  It was made to screw onto the stud at the top of a stand with a nut welded on the bottom, but the outside diameter of the tubing also fits perfecty into this foot socket, so it also works great low, on-stage.  There is a threaded stud at the top which the Tetramic is attached to.

The foot may be availible alone, I know the extention is.  It is simple, very stable, and folds up like a hand fan.  Drawbacks are that it is a bit heavy since it is all thick steel, that the legs sometimes stick out a bit far for some situations, and that minimum hight with the Bogen extension is about what you see above with the custom bar. Not as heavy as a weighted base, though.

edit-
Thanks Flipp, I forgot I blathered extensively about that already!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 12:26:36 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline flipp

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2011, 12:39:48 AM »
I remember the story bout the Possum and how it acquired its name from the one swimming laps in the pool. Just one of those things that gets in and never leaves. I also recall I had asked about the base in that thread. Search for "possum -phish" and it pops up every time.  ;)

and I still need to buy one of those bases
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 12:41:55 AM by flipp »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2011, 04:34:41 PM »
Not much to see here, but in the interest of complete documentation, below is a photo of the two additional miniature omnis taped to the back wall to boundary mount them about 8' or 9' apart to provide discrete surround channels.  Viewpoint is over m'lady's lovely shoulder, from the center table about 10' or so back from the stagelip.  These went unsynced into a seperate recorder at the back of the room (4060 > CA-UGLY > DR2d), the 3 stalk mounted omnis on stage were recorded to an OCM R44 via Niant PFAs.  The simultaneous recordings using the Tetramic (via Core PFAs) and ADK TLs went direct to the DR-680, synced via SPDIF to the R44's clock.

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Offline aysvideo

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 08:31:18 PM »
This may be a stupid question, but I've always thought the stupidest questions are the ones you don't ask. 
What do you call the mic configuration that is shown in the earlier photos, and what pattern of mics and applications would one typically use for this config?  Thanks. 

Offline newplanet7

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2011, 10:22:52 PM »
This may be a stupid question, but I've always thought the stupidest questions are the ones you don't ask. 
What do you call the mic configuration that is shown in the earlier photos, and what pattern of mics and applications would one typically use for this config?  Thanks. 

My guess, assuming you are talking about the adk tl's, is XY.
With a four channel tetra-mic clamped to the top then 3 evenly spaced 4060's' for three channel LEFT-CTR-RIGHT.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 10:28:54 PM by newplanet7 »
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2011, 10:27:22 PM »
This may be a stupid question, but I've always thought the stupidest questions are the ones you don't ask. 
What do you call the mic configuration that is shown in the earlier photos, and what pattern of mics and applications would one typically use for this config?  Thanks.



I ran three simultaneous on-stage rigs last night for an instrumental trio (guitar left, drums center, acoustic bass right):

1) Three L/C/R spaced omnis, ~29" between each
2) M/S ADK TL's
3) Tetramic (basically advanced 3-dimentinal M/S)

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Offline newplanet7

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2011, 10:30:02 PM »
^^^^^^
LOLZ! I totally missed that too.   :drunk:
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 09:42:18 AM »
 ;)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2011, 02:45:23 PM »
Kinda funny, the regular monthly gig where I took the photos above was re-located for the previous month's show due to movie filming so that this poser could prance around right where I set up the mics-


Here's the newspaper article.

Don't step on my mics man!
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline audBall

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2011, 02:53:05 PM »
Same guy?!?



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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2011, 04:42:10 PM »
I record a lot at a small club and run my mics (usually ADK-tl's) in a split omni fashion (but set to cardioid) in between the monitors using the sides as a sort of baffle. If I was to put them on the stage they would pickup the monitors which is not desirable. The reason for going with cardioid instead of omni is that the dancers are right there and I don't want to pick up their shuffling, farts, conversations or whatever. I also keep them low so the dancers don't smack them with their hands. I'm also creating a matrix on the fly pulling all the channels off the main board to another mixer so the stage lip mics are mainly for ambiance so this probably isn't exactly what you are looking for. BTW, mixing on the fly like that is a PITA!
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PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2011, 05:46:29 PM »
Sounds like a good approach to me, Walter.

Ha, ha, they look like they could be double-mint twins.  ;)
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2011, 08:21:23 AM »
Same guy?!?



Granted I've only been up for 30 mins so far today but this is the funniest thing I've seen all day!!!
"I dont sing...I dont dance...and I dont like to be around anyone who does" D.Letterman
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2011, 06:56:51 PM »
Last night Scott Holt (10 years w/ Buddy Guy) who wasn't around when I set up looked down at one of my mics at the stage lip and said "Who is supposed to sing into that? We don't have anybody that short in the band."
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2011, 08:49:57 PM »
hey lee...is that bobby lee jazz trio that you are recording?  he is top notch...i will be running onstage next month for his set at the freebird, not the jazz trio however
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 08:51:45 PM by T-90 »
"I dont sing...I dont dance...and I dont like to be around anyone who does" D.Letterman
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Countryman B3, AT853(4.7k,c,sc)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 09:22:53 PM »
yeah man,
really great player,
really great recording situations
I dig this jazz trio stuff the most
oustanding musicians
all instrumentals
vintage gear
masterful improvisations

Picking up the on-stage sound of his old '39? Gibson hollowbody with the f-holes taped up through the old Fender and the Echo-plex tape delay is sweet enough, but then the Leslie switches in and everything choruses and swirls around, the tubes in the leslie pulse brighter on each note, the upright bass rips into a syncopated solo and the drumer switches accents on the triplets.
Pure sound from the instuments.  It's a hip scene, dig?
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline newplanet7

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2011, 10:16:46 PM »
really great recording situations
I dig this jazz trio stuff the most
oustanding musicians
all instrumentals
vintage gear
masterful improvisations
Post of the year. Couldn't agree more.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2012, 12:52:49 PM »
The on-stage taping jazz trio gig I posted about last year is still going.. here are a few photos of an interesting setup last night.  I remembered to bring a camera this time since I was looking forward to running three TLs thanks to Xpanding Man lending me one of his:

My overkill setup with 8 mics into the DR-680-
1) MG M94 pair in ORTF
2) Three ADK TLs in an L/C/R triangular supercardioid arrangement.  Each mic attached to one leg of the stand base.
3) Three DPA 4060 omnis- one boundary mounted to stage surface in the rubber DPA boundary mount, forward of the MGs and ADKs.  The other two gaff taped to the front wall of the stage facing out into the room, boundary mounted about 8' apart and a foot or two below stage level (not visible in these photos).

The other setup visible in the photos is Spyder9's AKGs in DIN,  not visible here is Xpanding Man's double setup of Busman's and ATs just to the right of Spyder's rig and mine.

Partial view of my setup from above.  Visible in this photo are the ORTF MGs, the Center and Right ADKs, and if you look closely, the center 4060 in black rubber boundary mount taped to the floor in front of the center TL-




View from the left side.  Visible here are:
Spyder's camera, his stand with AKGs at the top, DVD battery, Niant Little box and M10s at the base. 
My ORTF MGs in Shure vert bar supported by the folding stand base, angled back to face the mics upwards. The three ADK TLs (big thanks to Xpanding Man for lending me the 3rd TL in the center!, which is also tilted back), and the barely visible center 4060 taped to the floor about 6" forward of the center TL.
A small part of Xpanding Man's stand immediately behind can barely be seen poking out on the right behind Spyder's stand-




Another view from above showing Spyders's AKGs, my MGs and TLs and the angles on them-


« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 01:09:52 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline T-90

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2012, 12:55:41 PM »
You are all jerks  ;)
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2012, 01:06:04 PM »
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2012, 01:09:54 PM »
Cool, I would love to hear the results.

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2012, 01:22:42 PM »
Spyder will probably get his up on Archive pretty quickly. He taped last month there with me and mentioned last night that he'd posted it.

I'm probably the worst taper on TS about actually getting processing and done, and when I do it's usually oldschool discs passed around, but I have grand ideas about putting up comparisons of many of the different setups I've run for this regularly re-occuring gig on-line somewhere for you guys.  Same players (sometimes a substitute drummer), same arrangement and room everytime makes for a great opportunity for comparisions between setups.

I did plugged DR680 outs into my surround receiver when I got home last night and re-lived it.  The three TLs routed directly to left, center and right speakers, and the room facing 4060s routed to surround left/right.  Soundy!
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2012, 01:28:32 PM »
 :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:  soundy is as soundy does.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2012, 02:36:05 PM »
Interesting setup. How are TLs attached to the stand legs?
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2012, 03:27:51 PM »
That folding lightstand base ships with the end of one leg drilled and taped to accept a mount for a floor light.   I drilled and taped the other two legs similarly so I could use them for these kinds of low-profile on-stage configs.  It allows spacing of up to a maximum of about 2' with the TL shocks baskets extending another few inches each way.  To use them I screw a short treaded stud into the tapped hole and secure it with a nut, then attach the mic mount to that.  I've previously used just the one in front by itself or the two on either side, but this was the first time I've used all three at the same time.

To keep the XLRs from contacting the floor, I use right angle connectors and have strung my TL supermount shocks with old, stretched out elastics on top and new tight ones on the bottom so the mics are shifted upwards in the mounts more so than normal.  The shockmount on the left with the thin black elastics is Xpanding Man's, strung normally, and that mic was set at an angle partly to get a bit more clearance between the XLR connector and the floor.  The simplest way of getting more clearance above the floor is to use a longer threaded stud or to connect a few together to get more height.  I did that last month to attach a stereo LD to the front leg.  It needed more clearance for the straight XLR terminated multi-conductor mic cable required for that mic, so I just connected three of the studs together with nuts.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2012, 06:59:57 PM »
Beautiful set-up gutbucket! Go Go Go! thanks for the pictures.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2012, 07:20:23 PM »
I just put up my recording.  That's my 460 > littlebox > M10 setup in the picture.

http://archive.org/details/blrt2012-08-23.spyder9.flac16

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2012, 01:54:40 AM »
onstage and i cant split them dfc nos 110*  >:D
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2013, 01:39:06 PM »
Below is a photo of the latest incarnation of the on-stage setup I've posted about previously from the gig last night, same room, same band, same tapers.  As before, Spyder’s rig is the taller stand to the right, centered on the drum kit (mics are out of frame).  My setup consists of the 3 ADK TLs at stage level + Gefell cardioids clamped the the underside of the lip facing out into the room.  The 3 ADKs are in hypercardioid mode like before, but spaced and angled closer to one of Michael William's MMAD (Multichannel Microphone Array Design configurations, an extension of the 2-channel Stereo Zoom stuff).  The MMAD setups are designed to achieve 'critical-linking' between each recording segment for smooth imaging all the way around.  Actually this is a bastardized version of one of his suggested arrays, but the position and angles of the 3 ADKs are pretty close.  The Left and Right mics are oriented sideways to get the spacing and angles between all three closer to what it is supposed to be. 

The cardioids take the place of the 4060 omnis I previously taped to the wall under the stage lip.  Their angle, pattern and position under the lip help exclude the direct stage sound from them.  Substituting those lets me approximate and experiment with the full 5 channel Williams arrays and should provide a more defined left/right imaging across the surrounds with the audience reaction.  In the arrangement shown here they don't really achieve 'critical-linking' between Left and Left Surround (Ls) and Right and Right Surround (Rs), but should across the segment between Ls and Rs.  I did this last time with the cardioids in more of an ORTF arrangement facing out into the room, so I’m interested in hearing the difference in having them positioned wider with less angle between them.

Music played last night was the compositions of Horace Silver.

(Note to John- Bobby played the black Les Paul without the Leslie as he's done before, but this was the first time I've ever seen him play without the Echoplex)

« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 02:01:46 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Myco

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2013, 01:47:36 PM »
Below is a photo of the latest incarnation of the on-stage setup I've posted about previously from the gig last night, same room, same band, same tapers.  As before, Spyder’s rig is the taller stand to the right, centered on the drum kit (mics are out of frame).  My setup consists of the 3 ADK TLs at stage level + Gefell cardioids clamped the the underside of the lip facing out into the room.  The 3 ADKs are in hypercardioid mode like before, but spaced and angled closer to one of Michael William's MMAD (Multichannel Microphone Array Design configurations, an extension of the 2-channel Stereo Zoom stuff.  The MMAD setups are designed to achieve 'critical-linking' between each recording segment for smooth imaging all the way around.  Actually this is a bastardized version of one of his suggested arrays, but the position and angles of the 3 ADKs are pretty close.  The Left and Right mics are oriented sideways to get the spacing and angles between all three closer to what it is supposed to be. 

The cardioids take the place of the 4060 omnis I previously taped to the wall under the stage lip.  Their angle, pattern and position under the lip help exclude the direct stage sound from them.  Substituting those lets me approximate and experiment with the full 5 channel Williams arrays and does provide a more defined left/right imaging across the surrounds with the audience reaction.  In the arrangement shown here they don't really achieve 'critical-linking' between Left and Left Surround (Ls) and Right and Right Surround (Rs), but should across the segment between Ls and Rs.  I did this last time with the cardioids in more of an ORTF arrangement facing out into the room, so I’m interested in hearing the difference in having them positioned wider with less angle between them.

Music played last night was the compositions of Horace Silver.

(Note to John- Bobby played the black Les Paul without the Leslie as he's done before, but this was the first time I've ever seen him play without the Echoplex)



DAY-YAM! Nice setup!~
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Offline chinariderstl

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2013, 02:08:21 PM »
Marking thread. Nice work guys.  :)
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2013, 02:42:58 PM »
Gutbucket, I assume that's a no vocals (just instrumentals) band?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2013, 02:52:30 PM »
I have not payed much attention to the on stage records but these look interesting and would like to hear what they sound like.  I'll be downloading spyder9 version tonight.  Would love to hear the surround sound.
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2013, 03:12:21 PM »
Hey y'all Dennis Rea has put together a seven piece ensemble for guided improv as well as two composed tunes in one of my favorite performance spaces.
I'll be running my Avantone CK-1 Busman mod mics onstage with the omni caps.

Dennis Rea - Guitar
James DeJoie - Bass Clarinet
Beth Fleenor - Clarinet
Kate Olson - Soprano Saxaphone
Stuart Dempster - Trombone
John Seman - Bass
Tom Zdonc - Drums

Stephen Fandrich - solo piano will be opening.

Show is scheduled to start at 8:00 Pacific time.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/scoobiesnax
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2013, 04:33:29 PM »
Thanks Myco & China.

Chuck, that's correct.  Only song title announcements, background stories, banter, communication between musicians, etc. directly from stage without a PA. Occasionally there is a single announce mic to the overhead PA for that, but its far clearer both on the recordings and out in the room when that is not used.  There was an unexpected guest sax player at one gig who stood almost directly above the mics similarly arranged like this down low on the stage surface, which concerned me at the time, but the sax recorded nicely.

JimmyC, I’m relatively strong on the recording end and woefully weak on post and distribution work, but that’ll shift eventually.  This series has been a fantastic recording setup laboratory for me and I have loads of material comparing various setups which I’ve planned all along to eventually get into a form that I can make available to you all.  Syder9 on the other hand is super efficient at getting his recordings posted pretty quickly, so that takes some pressure off me for those who want to hear the music, if not my oddball setups.  Thanks for that Spydee.

Hard for me to pass that up Scoob, especially featuring bass clarinet- one of my favorite non-mainstream instruments.  Wish I was going to be around tonight for your stream.
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2013, 04:42:02 PM »
I'll have the MP3 up and streaming on my blog later tonight most likely.

http://kennedy-williams.net/scoobiesnax
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Offline mysticeyes

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2013, 05:08:50 PM »

Very interesting onstage outfit. I wonder if those ADK's may need to wear windscreens to protect against inadvertent kicks, beer splash, etc.?




Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2013, 05:45:29 PM »
Very interesting onstage outfit. I wonder if those ADK's may need to wear windscreens to protect against inadvertent kicks, beer splash, etc.?

Normally yes, but I stopped using them here since all of that is not much of a concern for this series- it's a rather mellow scene.  One TL got a an o-so-slight tap from the accoustic bass once when the musician laid it down on it's side on the stage after the set, and that's about as wild as things get, excluding the music.
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Offline ziko

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2013, 09:37:59 AM »
I always record in mono be it on  stage recording or anywhere, it gives you the ability to adjust the panning and levels per channel as needed. The r44 records 4 channel mono with digital in. the dr 680 records 6 mono and digi in is stereo


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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2013, 05:13:15 PM »
(Note to John- Bobby played the black Les Paul without the Leslie as he's done before, but this was the first time I've ever seen him play without the echoplex)

It didn't sound too dry did it?  Maybe a copy of this will show up at Springfest  ;)  nice work on the setup
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2013, 12:25:48 AM »
Last night's Dennis Rea show is streaming on my site.

http://kennedy-williams.net/scoobiesnax/2013/01/dennis-rea-large-ensemble-the-chapel-performance-space-at-the-good-shepherd-center/

Dennis is considering putting this out on MoonJune Records. If it doesn't get released, I'll drop my FLACs on bt.etree.org
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2013, 11:57:39 AM »
(Note to John- Bobby played the black Les Paul without the Leslie as he's done before, but this was the first time I've ever seen him play without the echoplex)

It didn't sound too dry did it?  Maybe a copy of this will show up at Springfest  ;)  nice work on the setup

I was out of town all weekend and haven't had a chance yet to listen to the recording itself other then very briefly later that same evening when I got home.  Live he did sound a bit drier but not overly so, I think he used the standard Fender spring-verb in the amp.  But you know I dig that organic tape delay, even when it's relatively dialed down.  It was a rather hum-free night for a change.  Looking forward to giving it a closer listen this week, especialy since he felt it was a particularly good night.
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Offline LikeASong

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2013, 06:32:44 PM »
I had the chance to record my band on-stage the other day but I was afraid that the drums would take over the whole recording so I ended up having a crappy recording due to a poor position in the GA and a mediocre PA sound.

We play moderately loud indie-rock, do you think a on-stage recording without the drums being too prominent is achievable?
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2013, 06:49:10 PM »
More than the issue of how prominent the drums are, is how much of your band's sound comes from a PA?

If you're instrumental and your stage sound is balanced, on onstage recording can turn out beautifully. Parallel compression and judicious limiting can tame the drum kit.

If you have direct instruments, vocals, etc, then a 4 track recording mixing the onstage mics and a soundboard feed works amazingly well. What isn't coming off stage is coming from the PA and you can mix the two in post.
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Offline LikeASong

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2013, 07:42:55 PM »
I don't have 2 recorders at the moment so I have to choose between doing SBD (which I actually don't like much, I always prefer the sound of naturally amplified and recorded music) or on-stage. Our stage monitors use to be very balanced and softly mixed so I guess they  would be a good taping source, but I'm seriously concerned about the drums. I mean, I record our rehearsals in a very small (4x5 meters) room and the drums come out prominently always, even when the recorder & mics are placed the farthest possible from the drumkit... So I would guess that on-stage recording would have a similar problem if not worse, due to the stage providing an actually shorter distance between recorder and drumkit.

THanks for the help though :)
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2013, 10:17:00 PM »
Small practice room and it's reflections could easily be part of the problem for you. Try onstage in a live setting and see. If not, go with the classic audience recording.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2013, 10:19:18 PM »
In other news, my onstage recording of Dennis Rea large ensemble's 1/25 performance is going to be released on moonJune records later this year.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2013, 06:33:00 AM »
Small practice room and it's reflections could easily be part of the problem for you. Try onstage in a live setting and see. If not, go with the classic audience recording.
Ok, will try next month, thank you very much :)
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2013, 10:39:01 AM »
I don't have 2 recorders at the moment so I have to choose between doing SBD (which I actually don't like much, I always prefer the sound of naturally amplified and recorded music) or on-stage. Our stage monitors use to be very balanced and softly mixed so I guess they  would be a good taping source, but I'm seriously concerned about the drums. I mean, I record our rehearsals in a very small (4x5 meters) room and the drums come out prominently always, even when the recorder & mics are placed the farthest possible from the drumkit... So I would guess that on-stage recording would have a similar problem if not worse, due to the stage providing an actually shorter distance between recorder and drumkit.

THanks for the help though :)

I record regularly with mics onstage (actually stage lip) and my own soundboard mix. I use those mics mainly to add more of an ambiance. My problem with drums is actually getting them loud enough to be clear without drowning out the other instruments but then I record in a small club, not a confined practice space. Maybe the practice space needs some acoustic treatments?

If you have access to AC then a small mixer like the Allen & Heath ZED-10fx can give you more options than a two channel recorder. They go for about $220 on eBay (I'm looking at a used one for $120 locally). Of course that means a little mixing on the fly and they aren't exactly something you can stick in your taper bag but if you only occasionally want more channels, its a way to go. We get that taper mentality of wanting everything battery powered, lightweight and small and sometimes forget that there are other approaches.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2013, 12:33:55 PM »
In other news, my onstage recording of Dennis Rea large ensemble's 1/25 performance is going to be released on moonJune records later this year.

Congratulations!

..and agreed that the small practice room is likely to be the source of the problems, LikeASong.  Without that heavy load of reflected sound cluttering everything up, there will be more room for the other instruments to breathe and be heard between and around the drum transients, even though the direct sound from the kit may be at about the same level as in the practice room.  It may well translate as drum clarity rather than excessive drum dominance.  Definitely worth giving it a try.


I drove up coast last weekend to record a friend's band playing a beach party and a volunteer fire department awards diner the following night.  There was no good way to put mics out in the room full of banquet tables.  I had the R44 with me with the idea of recording a mic pair + SBD, but for several reasons I didn’t end up recording the SBD mix. That concerned me because except for electric guitar and bass, the band is very PA reliant with vox, acc guitar, keys and an electronic drum kit all dependant on monitors and PA. 

I instead put four mics on-stage directly in front of the electronic drum kit facing out into the room- cards in ORTF between omnis spaced about 3’. Basically positioned center stage and in a good spot to record the on-stage sound the band was hearing and self-mixing.  Two floor monitors at the lip about 7 feet away or so faced towards the band and the mics, a rearward facing drum monitor was directly beneath the mics, bass and guitar amps off to the sides.  As the band self-mixed from the stage, I sent hand signals from the back of the room to help them dial in the PA.  The room sound was decent, but their on-stage monitor mix was superior and made for a much better recording than I could have made from a position out front in the room.  The electronic drums actually sounded quite good and was what made it possible to put the mics right up against the kit facing out without the recording being drum dominated. Interestingly the sound of the sticks hitting the trigger pads was picked up by the omnis and sounds like subtle, low-level, very-on time stereo claps- like there was a skillful backup singer/percussionist.. instead of the way to common over enthusiastic drunk chick with bad rhythm and zero consistency.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 12:37:04 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2013, 08:22:16 PM »
I have run my mk21s onstage/stagelip a few times now for local bands, and they KILL IT :) Cant wait to use them stagelip at a bigger venue and when Im really FOB at festivals :)
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2013, 10:50:56 PM »

I drove up coast last weekend to record a friend's band playing a beach party and a volunteer fire department awards diner the following night.  There was no good way to put mics out in the room full of banquet tables.  I had the R44 with me with the idea of recording a mic pair + SBD, but for several reasons I didn’t end up recording the SBD mix. That concerned me because except for electric guitar and bass, the band is very PA reliant with vox, acc guitar, keys and an electronic drum kit all dependant on monitors and PA. 


That live/session thing referenced in the jazz thread came to pass and it was quite educational...  We wound up experimenting (which I'd have preferred not to be doing at that moment) but good ideas came about (I think). 

The intent was to go totally unamplified - though that presents challenges with a shifting and somewhat large and disparate configuration (acoustic piano, drums, double bass and up to three saxes).  The natural levels of all of those being quite different it becomes a big challenge.  My initial thought was to just go strictly ambient with a mic on the piano running through the PA to get the piano to a comparable level (the pianist was the leader on the date).  I thought the bassist was going to bring a small amp as he usually does for live shows, but he didn't. 

After some experimentation what we had was: my mics over the piano (one direct to a channel on the R-44 and another into the PA to provide some piano monitor and to the ambient mics).  My Naks were actually far more directional and better than the house mics so I used those for that.  The bassist brought a DPA instrument mic he uses for recordings that clips to the strings, so that was another channel.  I ran the Schoeps for the drums/horns (more ambient in feel).  Ultimately an advantage was that I had a direct mic on the two instruments that are always lost in an onstage band mix. 

As it turns out rather than going off the ambient and sweetening with the direct piano/bass I may build off the piano mic since there was a fair bit of bleed (as expected in a live or basically live environment, which is conducive to an improvised group feel but not ideal for a recording setting compared to studio isolations).  So I may be sort of sweetening with the "ambient' set. 

Most of my jazz listening friends always complain that acoustic piano is never properly in the mix so I was happy to find ways to resolve that issue.  In the future I'm going to fly at least one mic over the piano into the R-44 for anything I can.  I actually think it would be a useful strategy to fly a pair over the piano toward the band since that might be about the right mix with most players...  It's sort of hard to position that correctly though since the lid intervenes... 

I was also quite pleased with the DPA (which has very good isolation - a little bleed but not much).  If I could I would invest in a few of those with the various mounts (since they sell the same mic as an instrument mic for piano, bass, other strings, horns, guitar, etc.) 

I never intentionally multitrack so this is all going to be new ground for me.  The results seem good though I'd have preferred not to be improvising too.  But I've got some new strategies I think I'll really like.  I think I'm going to want to move on from 4 channels though if I do this more... 

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2013, 10:31:18 AM »
Sounds like a good approach.  You might clamp a pair of mics to the upper edge of the piano lid with the lid up full-stick, or remove the lid completely if that's allowable. 

DPA makes both miniature omni and supercardioid microphones with numerous instrument mounts.  I assume the bass player was using one of the omnis since the supercardioids have a rolled off low frequency response.  If so, the islolation in that case is due entirely to the mic's close proximity to the bass, using the clip which attaches to mic to the strings beneath the bridge I assume.  Could have been the supercardioid, which has an integral foam windscreen, is longer than the omnis, and usually mounts with a body clamp and flexible gooseneck.  If you want increased isolation of the piano, the DPA omnis have magnetic mounts which can be attached directly to the frame of the piano.  Or as an alternate approach to putting a different main pair up over the piano to pick up a good bit of the other instruments as well, you can tape two of the omnis to the underside of the piano lid up full-stick, which boundary mounts them to the surface, as long as the lid opening points more or less towards the other instruments in the group.
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2013, 08:09:05 PM »


Thanks. I dont have any omnis since still kind of new to the onstage thing and usually tsping stage lip with an audience I don't want on the recording.

I'm getting the itch to try some though. 

I'm definitely going to experiment on some piano orientations with the extra channels/mics.  Naks seemed like a good start with that.  Prior experience indicates the 4V's need considerable distance from the piano not to bake it. 

The DPA was one of those that clips to the strings with a small gooseneck underneath.  It did not seem omni since very isolated but maybe the proximity/orientation does it.

My sounding board (a musician outside this aggregation) said we definitely have the material for a second album with a somewhat different lineup that played live following the main project so we got s nice two-fer. 
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>
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2013, 11:40:07 AM »


Thanks. I dont have any omnis since still kind of new to the onstage thing and usually tsping stage lip with an audience I don't want on the recording.

I'm getting the itch to try some though. 

I'm definitely going to experiment on some piano orientations with the extra channels/mics.  Naks seemed like a good start with that.  Prior experience indicates the 4V's need considerable distance from the piano not to bake it. 

The DPA was one of those that clips to the strings with a small gooseneck underneath.  It did not seem omni since very isolated but maybe the proximity/orientation does it.

My sounding board (a musician outside this aggregation) said we definitely have the material for a second album with a somewhat different lineup that played live following the main project so we got s nice two-fer.

I know we've talked about this before, but I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by what an onstage omni can do.  Unless the crowd is pretty much talking OVER the music to the point that you cannot hear it, the sound energy from the onstage instruments should more than overwhelm any light audience noise.  I've used it for quiet guitar stuff, louder rock, etc. and never really had an issue.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2013, 12:16:09 PM »
I know we've talked about this before, but I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by what an onstage omni can do.  Unless the crowd is pretty much talking OVER the music to the point that you cannot hear it, the sound energy from the onstage instruments should more than overwhelm any light audience noise.  I've used it for quiet guitar stuff, louder rock, etc. and never really had an issue.

yeah, I agree with that with one addition; I've found it's not audience noise, but isolation from the rest of the stage that's the issue if you're trying to spot mic something. If you're doing multi-channel recording with the theory that you'll start with 2 channels and augment those with spot mics, the omnis work great as the 2 tracks but not as the spots.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2013, 12:24:15 PM »
I love omnis on stage, up to three or four of them across the front, when possible  :)

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2013, 03:45:00 PM »
Last night I revised the setup slightly which I've posted about here previously.

Here's a photo of the setup last month, which I posted here a few pages back-


..and below are a few from last night (looks like I need to find a new photo hosting service, Flickr apparently no longer allows direct embeded links to photos.  The downward spiral of all things connected to Yahoo continues unabated it would seem.  Bye bye Flickr). Details in my next post.

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2013, 03:49:19 PM »
neato!
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2013, 05:54:51 PM »
Arrg!

Just lost a half-hour post explaining the differences between the setup last month and last night and the reasoning behind it, with links to the Williams MMAD pages, etc.   

Oh well.  Below are photos of the Williams diagrams I used.  Top one specifies 5 supercardioids and is what I used this month, only I substituted cardioids for the rear facing pair but kept the spacing and angles the same.  The cards were clamped below the stage-lip as before, to reduce their pickup of direct sound from the stage, yet sound arriving from the sides rear are unobstructed to all mics so the side image linking should work.  The bottom diagram specifies 5 cardioids, and is what I loosely based the audience facing surround pair arrangement on last month.  I want the increased directionality and level difference provided by using the supercards on-stage though, so I haven't tried that cardioid arrangement all the way around, even though those dimentions are achievable with the three leg light stand base I'm using.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 10:43:14 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2013, 05:57:35 PM »
uno más-
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2013, 08:52:43 PM »
Love the mic Pron Gut...any chance to listen to the results? Hell I'd love to hear each individual track to see how it builds up (to 5.1 Surround?).
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2013, 11:49:56 AM »
I'm all set to record Avishai Cohen Thursday night here in J-town (I e-mailed management on a whim, offering to record which they accepted and comped my entry). I'm likely going to use a Schoeps mk22 and mk8 in a mid/side array from dead center stage lip.
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Offline microburst

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2013, 11:56:21 AM »
Avishai is sick, if mgmt. Allows please share

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2013, 12:37:04 PM »
I'm all set to record Avishai Cohen Thursday night here in J-town (I e-mailed management on a whim, offering to record which they accepted and comped my entry). I'm likely going to use a Schoeps mk22 and mk8 in a mid/side array from dead center stage lip.
Nice! I saw him with John Scofield.... very amazing!
hope you can share
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2013, 02:31:03 PM »
Hypno, I can probably get my raw tracks to you all to play around with.  Artist plans on stopping by tomorrow to hear it played back directly from the DR680 through my surround system.  I listened last night and needed to adjust channel balance slightly to reduce the level of the left channel and should probably bring up the bass EQ a couple dB to compensate for the roll-off in the response of the supercardioids in all channels except the Center, which would otherwise get to thick on the kick, but nothing major.  It's five direct channels, L/C/R/Ls/Rs no sixth .1 LFE channel. 

There was also a friend taping with his two channel rig (the taller stand visible to the right of my setup in the photos) and another shooting video. Ironically, one of the musicians is a music professor at a nearby university and asked the video guy not YouTube the smokin' encore version of So What, due to some technical mistake I missed but which he doesn't want his advanced graduate students to give him a hard time about. No wide distibution of that one at least.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2013, 04:41:36 PM »
I love omnis on stage, up to three or four of them across the front, when possible  :)

Here's an old photo for you.. four DPA 4060s gaffer taped to welding rods bent into gentle curve.  Designed to be gaffer taped vertically to the stage-lip, spaced at 3-4' intervals across the front of the stage, so that they extend up a few feet and back over the stage a few feet.  This photo shows them laid out on the shop floor after I taped them up, the afternoon before a MMW show (I think, maybe that was for Charlie Hunter).  They are nearly invisible from the audience during the performance.



Found a
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2013, 04:54:06 PM »
Found a photo of three of those rod-mounted omnis setup for use, along with the ADK TLs in Blumlien, taken about a year and a half ago in the same room as the more recent photos I posted above.  The camera flash makes them obvious in the photo, but the band didn't even realize the stalk mounted omnis were there for months.. until eventually noticing I was taping something else up besides the big mics.  This photo was taken before I drilled and tapped the other two feet of the folding three-leg lightstand base to attach the TLs in the triangular configuration I'm currently using there.
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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2013, 04:55:50 PM »
Great stuff Gutbucket!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2013, 04:57:43 PM »
Co-Founder of F.M.Recording 
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Canon 5D Mark II, Canon 2x Extender Mark III, Canon 15mm f2.8, Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM, Canon 100mm Macro f2.8, Canon 16-35mm L f2.8, Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8, Canon 70-200mm L f2.8 IS, Canon ST-E2, Canon 580ex II (x2), Canon 430ex II, PocketWizard PLUS II(x4), Radiopopper PX System

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2013, 05:04:07 PM »
Thanks guys.
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Offline TSNéa

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2013, 07:29:15 PM »
Thanks, Gutbucket, this is very interesting, especially with the photos and the diagrams: maybe there is more than stereo!
At least that's what I understand from all your posts in this thread and others!
I'm marking this thread...

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2013, 02:06:23 PM »
Avishai Cohen was a big success. I ran mk22/mk8 MS onstage.

More pics (etc) available here: http://noahbickart.fastmail.fm/Avishai/

Avishai Cohen Trio - February 28, 2013: Zapa; Jerusalem, Israel

Avishai Cohen - Bass, Vocals
Nitai Hershkowitz - Piano
Jorge Rossi - Drums, Percussion

Source:
Recorded from the stage lip, DFC
Schoeps mk22 [mid] / mk8 [side]> KCY Cable> Naiant Littlebox> Sony m10 @ 24bit / 96kHz

Processing:
Micro SD Card> Macbook Pro> Sound Studio [Light Limiting, Normalize, M/S Decode, Tracks & Fades]> xACT [Aiff > Flac]

Recorded by Noah B. Bickart <noahbickart@post.harvard.edu>

1 Signature (Avishai & Nitai)
2 Cris Cross (Avishai & Nitai)
3 Avishai Speaks
4 Samuel (Trio)
5 Ballad for an Unborn (Trio)
6 Variations (Trio)
7 4 Verses (Trio)
8 El HaTzipur (Trio)
9 7 Seas (Trio)
10 Crowd Noise
11 "?" (Avishai Solo)
12 Alfonsina y el Mar (Avishai Solo)
13 Morenika (Avishai & Nitai)
14 "?" (Trio)
15 Besame Mucho
16 Remembering
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 07:23:23 PM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline microburst

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2013, 05:02:39 PM »
I love this thread and reading about more advanced tehniques of which I know I'm not capable of executing with any success, both becuase I neither have sufficient gear nor the technical expertise.  From my perspective a simple stero pair on stage or a stero pair flanked by a less directional pair like subs or omnis works wonders in my world.  Quite honestly, I usually prefer the simple stereo pair centered than I do the mixdowns of a split pair, but I think that's partly because I know I have hearing damage due to too many shows and partly because I don't have much confidence in my eq abilities (again largely this goes back to hearing damage and lack of technical knowledge to navigate the frequency spectrum).

Anyway, gutbucket you and I met at the mmw show pre-jamcruise last month (I was running the schoeps 4-mic active set with tony frisa from nyc) and I was very much impressed with your surround array.  Would love to listen to the end results one of these days before my hearing goes completely to the shitter.  On stage recording is certainly my preferred approach and I salute all that support on stage taping.  I'll be at Blue Note in NYC tonight recording Bill Evans Soulgrass w/ medeski, cininger, mbappe, etc on stage w/ sbd matrix for bill's mgmt. Co roundhouse (big ups to ted gak for hookin' that up!!) and though I doubt I can circulate if I can I will (also got the tuesday 2/26 show w/ kraz).

Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 05:07:03 PM by microburst »

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2013, 01:07:33 AM »
Lookin good Noah :) I need one of those MS Screens :)
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman & Shanling M0 ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax & Westone Bluetooth MMCX Cables ->
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Westone UM Pro 30 (G1 & G2) IEM's -> Comply Isolation+ Memory Foam Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline noahbickart

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #89 on: March 05, 2013, 07:07:59 AM »
Lookin good Noah :) I need one of those MS Screens :)

I've got an extra one, which I'll give you if you buy my mk8/mk6
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2013, 06:51:28 PM »
Anyway, gutbucket you and I met at the mmw show pre-jamcruise last month..

Good to meet both you and Tony.  That was a fun night, and an interesting recording.  I mostly wanted to hear what that setup sounded like from the audience perspective in the big room instead of up on stage in the small one.  Since the PA's SPL level was prettly low, I mostly made a great surround recording of the pre-cruise cocktail party all around us and only a mediocre recoriding of M(S)MW.  I don't think I'll try flying 3 ADK TLS + full bodly SD cards like that in that location again, but it looked pretty impressive.  If you took a picture, send it to me as I'd love to have a photo of that. The surround is quite impressive when that spunion dude tried to run up the blocked staircase in front of the SBD and knocked the clamp loose from the railing and I caught the contraption on it's way down.  You can hear all the tapers go "Whoa!" all around, some girl in back yell, "nice catch!" and her friends break into applause, and Spyder-9 off to the far left call out "Idiot!"

Below is a photo from an organ trio recording session last Wednesday night.  This one was done to make a CD for the band, recorded in the organist's living room, but basically an on stage setup.  The feet belong to the guitarist who stood about 3-4' behind where he's standing in the photo.  The organ was a beautiful B-3 with pedal board and two sequential serial# Leslie cabs on either side.  The right ADK TL is only about a foot or two from the closer Leslie, the other Leslie is farther back towards the rear corner of the drum kit.  No surround pretentions on this one, just two seperate stereo arrays- the three ADK TLS in a supercardioid equilateral triangle on the floor, and the MG cardioid pair ORFT-ish, a little bit farther back and ~4' high.  I ran both mostly to compare them and as a safety in the unknown smallish room, but it worked out best with them both mixed together.  The ORTF pair is sort of add some air like room mics.  Worked out really well.
 
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made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2013, 12:29:24 AM »
Not to brag or pat my own back, but last weekend[the 13th] I recorded Consider The Source with my mk21s stage lip, DFC, and IMO, its one of my best onstage/stage lip recordings ive EVER MADE 8) Its just how a killer stage recording should sound. Here is the link. Please let me know what you think ;)

http://archive.org/details/cts2013-04-13.mk21.lb.m10.flac16
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman & Shanling M0 ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax & Westone Bluetooth MMCX Cables ->
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Westone UM Pro 30 (G1 & G2) IEM's -> Comply Isolation+ Memory Foam Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline davepeck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2013, 10:11:32 AM »
Not to brag or pat my own back, but last weekend[the 13th] I recorded Consider The Source with my mk21s stage lip, DFC, and IMO, its one of my best onstage/stage lip recordings ive EVER MADE 8) Its just how a killer stage recording should sound. Here is the link. Please let me know what you think ;)

http://archive.org/details/cts2013-04-13.mk21.lb.m10.flac16

Sounds fantastic, Bean. A bit drum-heavy, but that can be unavoidable with on-stage recordings.

I have similar thoughts about my on-stage Snarky Puppy recording in Boston last month. Quite possibly the best recording I've ever made with 2 mics, period. Check it out:

http://archive.org/details/snarkypuppy2013-03-30.bsc2.flac24
Telefunken M60 + TK60 / TK61 / TK62 > Tascam DR-70D

Audio | Video | Photo

Offline chinariderstl

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2013, 04:36:10 PM »

I have similar thoughts about my on-stage Snarky Puppy recording in Boston last month. Quite possibly the best recording I've ever made with 2 mics, period. Check it out:

http://archive.org/details/snarkypuppy2013-03-30.bsc2.flac24

Damn, that does sound good as shit!! Nice work!  :)
Mics: Audio-Technica AT853's, Avantone CK-40 (Busman mod), Busman BSC1's, DPA 4022's, DPA 4060's
Pres: Apogee Mini-MP, Core Sound Battery Box
Decks: Sony PCM-M10, Tascam DR-2D, Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
Power: Initial RB-270, Naztech PB15000
LMA: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Chris+Finn%22

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2013, 11:41:52 PM »
That does sound good. Well done!

Love the mic Pron Gut...any chance to listen to the results? Hell I'd love to hear each individual track to see how it builds up (to 5.1 Surround?).

I just made my first Soundcloud upload-  an initial mixdown of the recordings from that organ trio session I posted about a few weeks ago.  The idea behind these recordings was to get some material for the band's promotional CD and websites. All these tracks have a snare hit at the begining and end of each track so they can sync video to the audio.  The tracks are not trimmed or normalized like they would be for CD, but are EQ'd, have some parallel compression applied, and the errant peaks manually knocked down with the volume envelope tool- more of that on the last few numbers when they get cooking.  I trimmed the excess between tunes, and it sounds like a studio outake recording with some banter between tracks and a couple false starts, but was played straight through in order, like a live set and the overall dynamics reflect that.

Mic setup was described in my last post (with photo).  I was concerned about the drums in that very square living room but the room sound is ok.  The only computer I currently have setup for editing has an older version of Samplitude that only supports four channels, so instead of importing the 5 mono channels into the computer, I played it back in real time on the DR680 and did a 5 > 2ch mix down using the monitor mix of the DR-680 > SPDIF > R-44.  I then imported the 24/48 stereo file from the R44 and did the work in Samplitude on that 2-channel file.

Band has yet to decide just what they want to do with these. These aren't public files on Soundcloud, but supposedly these 'backdoor' links will let readers of this thread download the FLACs.

Titles aren't listed on Soundcloud but below are links to a few of the ten tracks recorded. 

Download the FLACs (16/44) if you like or just give  a quick listen to the Soundcloud lossy compressed but instant stream and let me know what you think (anyone know what compression and rate soundcould useds for streaming?  It sounds rather compromised to me, but I don't mp3 much)-

song1 umm, I know this one.. help me out with the title
Commin' Home Baby
Organ Grinder Swing
Chicken
So What
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 11:26:40 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #95 on: May 08, 2013, 11:28:28 AM »
Let me know if those links are working or not.
I can post links to the other tracks in the set as well if there is interest.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline Roger Gustavsson

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #96 on: May 08, 2013, 01:00:17 PM »
These recordings of Snarky Puppy and The Toasted Grains are sounding fantastic!

I certainly want all you have with The Toasted Grains. Strange, you have five links but I got six tracks downloaded....

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #97 on: May 08, 2013, 01:20:12 PM »
First link works and sounds nice. I don't know the song but it sounds so familiar.
--
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #98 on: May 08, 2013, 02:35:59 PM »
Thanks Walter.

These recordings of Snarky Puppy and The Toasted Grains are sounding fantastic!

I certainly want all you have with The Toasted Grains. Strange, you have five links but I got six tracks downloaded....

Below are individual links to the entire CD length set.  I'm at work on a machine without sound, so I've made no attempt at listening to name the other tracks.  If anyone positively IDs them, help me out with song titles.  Appears that I missed a file split for the tune immediately following Commin' Home Baby, so that file actually comprises two tunes, the second was another Jimmy Smith tune as I recall.

song1 umm, I know this one.. help me out with the title
Commin' Home Baby (and song 3, apparently I missed that split)
track3
track4
track5
Organ Grinder Swing
Chicken
track8
So What

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Offline dnuggs

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #99 on: May 08, 2013, 02:44:01 PM »
Let me know if those links are working or not.
I can post links to the other tracks in the set as well if there is interest.

Links work
Sounds great Lee, I feel like I am in the living room while they jam!

Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2013, 01:51:10 PM »
Let me know if those links are working or not.
I can post links to the other tracks in the set as well if there is interest.

Links work
Sounds great Lee, I feel like I am in the living room while they jam!

No fly's on those recordings Gut....nice....maybe the B3 a bit higher in the mix but that may be out of your control...
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2013, 03:22:17 PM »
I'll listen when I get home tonight. It's a rare day when Lee opens his treasure chest.  :o  :)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2013, 04:09:39 PM »
Thanks Hypno,

The balance between instruments on this is pretty much set by mic placement and the level that each musician played.  So unless it's a frequency region more or less specific to that one instrument, there is not a whole lot I can do to bring up the organ verses the drums and guitar after the fact.  I did pan the left TL inwards about halfway between Left and Center to help 'unstick' the guitar from being hard-left in the left speaker, but all the other mics were simply hard-panned left or right except the center, which was panned straight middle.  Actually at their regular gig the organ can usually stand to be a good bit louder, so I was happy it's more or less sufficiently loud on this recording.  The little bit of parallel comp I used helped bring up the lower level parts and details from all the instruments, and a much of what I was hoping to bring out by that was the lower level organ parts.

How does the overall EQ balance sound?  I'm especially curious about the louder/faster tunes, when the cymbals might get a bit too bright and strident even though I think their balance is good on the lower level tunes.  I notched down what was a relatively hot cymbal resonance and pushed the drums back slightly with an ever so slight mid/side width tweak.  Give So What a listen, which is a faster number with a steady ride cymbal driving much of it, and let me know if that one sounds a bit too hot up top or not.   

With your strong knowledge of mix-down/EQ/comp, I'm curious to hear your critical assesment too, Page.

Next I'll work on getting some of those on-stage surround tracks up somewhere for you guys to mess around with.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 04:11:44 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #103 on: May 10, 2013, 12:18:24 AM »
I grabbed a handful of tracks, but I'm not sure i'll have time to sit down a listen (I was hoping tonight, but that didn't pan out); tomorrow's a work day and then travel for a bit.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline MIQ

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #104 on: May 10, 2013, 02:25:14 AM »
This sounds great Lee!  Nice work.

I think the tonal balance is really natural sounding.  The kick drum in So What at about 4:10 to 4:14 sounds different than other spots in the song, like the attack is different.  Is that just Luis kicking it differently or was that section processed some how?

I really enjoyed listening to this.

-MIQ

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2013, 09:54:27 AM »
Just his playing.  Processing was pretty simple and constant across the entire session: First mixed to stereo, then EQ, parallel comp, and just the slightest touch of width adjustment on a whim, all applied to that stereo mix-down.  The only thing different on So What and Chicken is that those have more volume envelope adjustments than the other tracks to knock down just the hottest drum hit peaks to get the overall dynamics manageable.  Those adjustments are both pretty small and rapid, and I listened pretty closely to make sure they didn't change the timbre of the hit or kill the energy of the groove.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #106 on: May 10, 2013, 11:21:08 AM »
Funny.  Last night at home I listened to the Soundcloud stream (which oddly didn’t play in the correct order) thinking "man, those cymbals do sound too bright to me", so I popped in an extra CD copy I'd burnt for the band to compare and the cymbals were maybe slightly hot but much cleaner and less ‘tizzy’ so I decided it was partly the data compression of the stream that was bugging me.  At that point I thought "what the hell, I should listen to the raw tracks off the recorder as straight multichannel playback" which is funny because that's usually the first thing I do once I get home- plug in the recorder and listen, each channel routed to it’s own speaker. 

But for a few reasons I never did that this time until last night: This was a session intended to produce 2ch material for the band, not a live surround recording for myself; I had already decided on the basics of the stereo mixdown at the session by using the DR680 monitor mixer to pan and balance a rough headphone mix for the musicians to listen to at the end of the session, which sounded good to everyone on the ‘phones; and I was heading out of town for a week and haven't had much free time to until now.

However, I had setup the three ADK TL mics in a configuration that was similar to the my current on-stage surround setup, simply because I knew that worked for similar instrumental jazz trios and should mix-down to 2-ch stereo well.  So I plugged in the 680 and routed the left TL to the left speaker, the center TL to the center speaker and the right TL to the right speaker and just ignored the two MG ORTF channels.

Wow, I should find a way to post those three individual mono tracks for anyone who wants to try playing them back that way.  It’s not technically as good as the full 5 channel surround on-stage recordings made in a good room with an audience (I checked that immediately afterwards since the raw files from the most recent BLR jazz trio recording was on the same card) but in a number of ways it’s significantly better than this 2-channel mixdown- specifically the solid and palpable imaging and general tonal balance.. at least that’s what I convinced myself of that last night.  The massaged stereo mix may be better in some other aspects.  I’ll have to listen again to really decide. It’s certainly better in the practical sense that the dynamics are managed and it can actually be easily distributed and listened to in stereo. 

Maybe I should look into setting up a dropbox account or something if anybody wants to hear the raw mono tracks.  I suppose I could throw some snippets of the raw 5 channel BLR surround stuff in there too.

It's a rare day when Lee opens his treasure chest.  :o  :)

Heh, the motivation to quickly mix these down to distributable stereo files came from needing to get something to the band!  That’s typically the only time I actually get around to finding the time and making the effort to do the post-recording work.  You all are my other motivation!
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #107 on: May 10, 2013, 03:52:30 PM »
^^ Yeah, I wouldn't base any evaluation of something that specific off of Soundcloud. Their compression sounds pretty bad.

[Your samples sound great, though]
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #108 on: May 10, 2013, 04:13:18 PM »
Just his playing.  Processing was pretty simple and constant across the entire session: First mixed to stereo, then EQ, parallel comp, and just the slightest touch of width adjustment on a whim, all applied to that stereo mix-down.  The only thing different on So What and Chicken is that those have more volume envelope adjustments than the other tracks to knock down just the hottest drum hit peaks to get the overall dynamics manageable.  Those adjustments are both pretty small and rapid, and I listened pretty closely to make sure they didn't change the timbre of the hit or kill the energy of the groove.

So I snaked out early and spun tracks 09 and 06 for a listen before packing.

Using what was posted, I wanted to favor a +3db bell curve centered around 1200hz (flat at 500 and again flat around 3700). I personally love that sort of air that you're getting above 10khz, but I'd be interested to hear one of them in the raw 5ch format to tinker with the mix myself and see if it has the same character or if that's a byproduct of the tri-mic mix. The oomph at 60hz was well reproduced, and I was surprised that it came through that well actually.

Maybe it was luck, but I noticed that the only energy in the top bit or so was drum hits, so I used a super crisp limiter at about 7db worth and almost never invaded anything other than those occasional explosions. Yeah yeah, it works towards flattening the mix, but I don't see much reason to lose detail in trade for the occasional blast, especially when I can keep most of it's character and bring up other details.

First mixed to stereo, then EQ, parallel comp, and just the slightest touch of width adjustment on a whim, all applied to that stereo mix-down.

Widen or Narrow?

When you did the mixdown, did you favor the center channel and use the other two channels as outriggers, or the opposite and use the center only as much as you thought necessary?

Well done. When I get back I'll have to dig out some choice cuts and try to up the ante.  ;) That's a tough act to follow actually...
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #109 on: May 10, 2013, 07:41:41 PM »
^^ Yeah, I wouldn't base any evaluation of something that specific off of Soundcloud. Their compression sounds pretty bad.

[Your samples sound great, though]

Thanks, I trust the ears and value the opinions of you all more than anyone else, except my own, including the musicians!  :P

Using what was posted, I wanted to favor a +3db bell curve centered around 1200hz (flat at 500 and again flat around 3700). I personally love that sort of air that you're getting above 10khz, but I'd be interested to hear one of them in the raw 5ch format to tinker with the mix myself and see if it has the same character or if that's a byproduct of the tri-mic mix. The oomph at 60hz was well reproduced, and I was surprised that it came through that well actually.

I'm with you.  I often like to bring up some presence range around 1200-2500 as well.  I think I did some of that here (can't remember exactly, I'd have to go back and open the Samplitude session to check how much and where) but I also thought later that it could use some more there.  I actually didn't get that impression on listening to this isolation, but in comparison to professionally recorded stuff.

The air up top around 10kHz and a good bit of the room ambience is from the MGefell M94 ORTF pair.  That aspect is what influenced the decision to mix what was originally intended as two separate sources, simultaneously recorded (the 3 ADKS and the ORTF Gefells).  When I combined the two while playing around with the headphone mix at the conclusion of the session to give the guys a listen, the mix really came alive. The M94s have a pretty good peak around 10K which is sweet in for diffuse field but can be a bit much that close, so I notched that down a bit. 

One thing that was interesting on listening to the discrete 3-channel TL playback last night was that it didn’t seem to suffer as much from the lack of that extra air as I remember the straight 3 TL 2-channel mix doing. There could be some cancellation in the 3 mic mix that mixing in the Gefells compensates for, or it could be psychoacoustic, or I could be imagining things.  I’ll have to listen to that again.

The bottom ooph quality and quantity somewhat surprised me too, especially since the TLs were all in supercardioid pattern and those MG M94 caps are a little light on the bottom.  The mics may have been close enough to the kick and one of the Leslie cabinets to get some slight proximity effect, but I attribute a lot of that to the on-floor placement of the TLs.  They are close enough to the floor to be within the boundary-effect zone effect at those frequencies. 

I’m really digging that on-floor setup for a few reasons:  it's out of audience sightlines, captures that solid bottom couple octaves, and minimizes floor reflections.  One of the big factors for me in placing the 3-mic setup is making sure the center mic is off-center from the main axis of the kick, but still relatively close to the kit.  I also make sure I have a clear line to the snare and angle it up towards it, not so high to get too much cymbals, though I try to get more cymbals in the Center than Left/Right and angling the Center up helps that too.  Those things collectively are the keys to good on-stage drums with the 3-mic setup for me.  Tapers seem worried about getting too close and getting too much drums when recording on-stage, this seems to manage that while giving me clear, clean drum transients without too much room sound.  Most everything else except vocals can usually stand to be more ambient than the drums in my thinking.

Quote
Maybe it was luck, but I noticed that the only energy in the top bit or so was drum hits, so I used a super crisp limiter at about 7db worth and almost never invaded anything other than those occasional explosions. Yeah yeah, it works towards flattening the mix, but I don't see much reason to lose detail in trade for the occasional blast, especially when I can keep most of it's character and bring up other details.

Thanks, that’s helpful.  You are more accomplished than I at transparent limiting, which is one reason I usually just get in there and volume envelope the big offenders.  It’s one of the things I need to play around with more to get the average level up to something more reasonable in mastering for the real world.

Quote
Widen or Narrow?

Widened by the smallest amount, not to actually make the image wider, but because it pushed the drums back from out of the listeners face ever so slightly and tamed the cymbals up top slightly.  That was a last moment impulse choice before bouncing these test mix tracks out.

Quote
When you did the mixdown, did you favor the center channel and use the other two channels as outriggers, or the opposite and use the center only as much as you thought necessary?

I try it both ways, sometimes it works better one way or the other.  I typically start with Left/Right and slowly bring up the Center and play around with that balance until it’s as smooth and seamless as possible. Recording gain on the center TL was set 4dB lower to begin with, and I think I ended up mixing them pretty evenly here.  There is some range of reasonable adjustment but since the idea of this 3-mic setup is to have stereo imaging interaction across all three mics, there isn’t nearly as much level adjustment range as a panned individual close mic setup without things going wacky.  The sweet spot is pretty obvious usually.

This in depth discussion has me thinking I really should have imported the 5 raw tracks into Samplitude and done the mix there like I usually would- I could then play with treating the two sources differently as required, like manage the M94 air without affecting the TLs and vice versa.

Quote
Well done. When I get back I'll have to dig out some choice cuts and try to up the ante.  ;)

Thanks.  I’d love to hear it.  Have an enjoyable trip.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2013, 10:15:30 AM »
So, a friend wants me to multi-track his opening slot on a big stage in town on Saturday.

It's him with acoustic guitar and vocals and a pedal steel player that doesn't sing.

The venue will let me do anything I want. They have three way mic splitters that run to the monitor mixing desk which leaves me with splits to use from any onstage mics.

My question is the best way to handle the audience microphones. This place is a real barn with a huge high ceiling and it sounds like a barn in there. I'm thinking about running a pair of cardioid mics, right on stage facing the audience, rather than putting the mics in the audience area.

In the past, I've set-up at the SBD with audience mics and got a SBD feed, but I haven't multi-tracked in this place yet.

If I run the audience mics on stage I won't get the sound from the PA, which generally sounds very boomy in there.

I'll be running my DR-680 and plan to run the channels:

1 - vocal mic (from splitter)
2 - acoustic guitar (splitter from DI) He plays standing up and moves around the whole time, so no spot mic.
3 - pedal steel guitar (split from on stage mic pointed at the steel players amp)
4
5 - audience mic (L)
6 - audience mic (R)

What do you guys think?
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2013, 10:19:24 AM »
That is what I would do, including the cards backward on stage.  Also, since you have a channel to burn you might want to grab a second pedal steel channel via one of your own mics so you can mix him in stereo with the acoustic and vocal right down the middle.  It creates a nice stereo feel to a rather minimal recording.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 10:21:41 AM by Jimna »
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2013, 10:25:40 AM »
Hey Jim, yeah, It hadn't occurred to me to put another mic on the pedal steel guy. But, that could make for a nice stereo spread.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2013, 10:29:50 AM »
yeah, if he has 2 cones in the amp I would mic each, if not mic the center of the cone and then the outside too, but be aware of the potential need to invert phase on one of the 2.  we did this on Jim Lewin for the Great American Taxi album that will be out in June or July, it created a crazy cool effect that was simply awesome and you cant simulate in hardware or software.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2013, 12:15:51 PM »
Sounds like a good approach to me.
The three splits are obvious and the audience facing cards are a good.

I'd definitely take advantage of the 6th channel if possible.  The idea of stereo mic'ing the steel sounds great.   I might pull the second mic back a bit to give it some depth..

or if it sounds halfway decent on stage, you might consider placing that extra mic so it isn't close mic'ing either the pedal steel or acoustic but is oriented to get both of them, picking up the stage acoustic but not much room.  That could sweeten up the DI guitar sound nicely (depending on the stage levels) and provide some depth dimension.  If the level from the acoustic guitar is to low for that to be useful you might clamp a mic halfway up the vocal mic stand or something to get it closer to the guitar.  If the guitar player wanders away it'll still get the steel bloom and stage dimension and you automatically fall back to the guitar DI sound.  I'm thinking that mic might be a ticket to the guitar sounding better on your recording than in the room.

[edit-  I 'd just prefer not having all the mics picking up the main sources close-mic'd and I dig the depth I get by having some mics in near proximity but not too far away.  However Jim is far more knowlegable about close-mic'ing and splits than I, so you'd probably do well to defer to his opinion!]
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 12:24:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2013, 12:37:26 PM »
IME not lining up a pair of mics intended for stereo creates issues with phasing and makes that second channel a loss.  In theory it sounds good but in reality its a time alignment nightmare....just my 2 cents.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2013, 12:54:26 PM »
Makes sense. Probably a situation where the 'either close-enough or far-enough away' guideline applies. 

I suppose I'm something of a depth junkie.  8)
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #117 on: May 14, 2013, 12:55:25 PM »
Stereo micing the pedal steel will made a big difference I think. Maybe with a dynamic (assuming venue SM-57) mic and a condenser a bit farther away. Because other than the pair covering the audience everything will be mono. The pedal steel can be stereo and tie everything together. Like Jim said vox and guitar down the middle with a little stereo post processing reverb added to give some depth.

It's been a really long time since I've done anything like this.

I did run FOH live sound 3 nights/week when I was in my 20-30's. But, I always recorded that stuff live to two track from the SBD. I haven't mixed anything down in a really, really long time.  ;D  Mostly because I don't have the time or patience anymore. But this will be way easier to do rather than mixing down a full band with drums etc... after the fact. I'm looking forward to this.

edit to add:

Just saw Jim's response. Maybe I'll just run a pair of my condensers on the pedal steel and not use the house mic?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 12:57:29 PM by Chuck »
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2013, 01:03:23 PM »
I am getting paid so I have a different mentality and approach, but I never use house gear if possible, I want the best signal I can get and do risk house gear in that process.  I would use a wide card or card, the less bleed on a direct channel the better, no Dynamics if possible.  Best results for me is a SD sub-card with a LD card seem to blend well.  I love a MBHO sub-card with a Senn 421 on a guitar cab, the 2 are (.Y.) together.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 01:08:07 PM by Jimna »
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #119 on: May 14, 2013, 01:07:08 PM »
I do have a couple of Peavey dynamic SM-57 clones that I can bring along instead of extra condensers.
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Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Jimna

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #120 on: May 14, 2013, 01:08:56 PM »
oops that was a brain fart, Chuck.  I meant to say dynamics....I fixed it.  sorry about that!
Co-Founder of F.M.Recording 
SD: Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > Grace Lunatec V3 > Busman Hybrid R4
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Canon 5D Mark II, Canon 2x Extender Mark III, Canon 15mm f2.8, Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM, Canon 100mm Macro f2.8, Canon 16-35mm L f2.8, Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8, Canon 70-200mm L f2.8 IS, Canon ST-E2, Canon 580ex II (x2), Canon 430ex II, PocketWizard PLUS II(x4), Radiopopper PX System

http://jmimna.com/

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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #121 on: May 14, 2013, 02:25:59 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions guys.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #122 on: May 14, 2013, 03:10:53 PM »
I've read that hyper cards are the way to go with audience response mics but I've tried omnis, cards and hyper cards and finally settled on cards with the phase reversed. But I think the choice comes down to the room. Hypers might take some of the boominess out. Omnis, if placed right, might give you some ambiance as well as pick up applause. Too bad you don't have more time to test things to see which would work best in that environment. BTW, watch out for the monitors. You want to avoid picking them up in most cases. No telling what is coming out of them mix-wise.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #123 on: May 14, 2013, 04:01:18 PM »
I'm actually considering running my CK-61 Naiant Actives DIN, three feet off the floor, just in front of the vocal mic but not picking up the monitor, angled slightly up pointing toward the audience. That would eliminate the time delay between the audience mics and the vocal mic. I would reverse the phase of the audience pair in post production.

The stage at this place is wide and deep. Photo's here: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/images_dogdays.html

The crowd is generally very respectful at this venue. My friend is opening for Junior Brown who is a guitar legend who has this really crazy looking double neck guitar that combines a telecaster with a lap steel! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Brown

I haven't gotten permission to record him yet.  :-\

There are tables in the pit area in front of the stage, but a lot of people actually sit on an upper level further from the stage. This show will have an older crowd. The audience applause in this place sounds wonderful when it's filled up.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline kcmule

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2013, 04:07:42 PM »
I've read that hyper cards are the way to go with audience response mics but I've tried omnis, cards and hyper cards and finally settled on cards with the phase reversed. But I think the choice comes down to the room. Hypers might take some of the boominess out. Omnis, if placed right, might give you some ambiance as well as pick up applause. Too bad you don't have more time to test things to see which would work best in that environment. BTW, watch out for the monitors. You want to avoid picking them up in most cases. No telling what is coming out of them mix-wise.

I've tried hyper, card, and omni.  I prefer the hypers for my recording venue, but I usually run as many as I have channels for.  Don't have to use them in post, but can be nice to have.  I'll typically run a large card on each side of the stage and a hyper and omni in the middle, just because I can.

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #125 on: May 14, 2013, 04:37:46 PM »
I'm actually considering running my CK-61 Naiant Actives DIN, three feet off the floor, just in front of the vocal mic but not picking up the monitor, angled slightly up pointing toward the audience. That would eliminate the time delay between the audience mics and the vocal mic. I would reverse the phase of the audience pair in post production.

The stage at this place is wide and deep. Photo's here: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/images_dogdays.html

The crowd is generally very respectful at this venue. My friend is opening for Junior Brown who is a guitar legend who has this really crazy looking double neck guitar that combines a telecaster with a lap steel! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Brown

I haven't gotten permission to record him yet.  :-\

There are tables in the pit area in front of the stage, but a lot of people actually sit on an upper level further from the stage. This show will have an older crowd. The audience applause in this place sounds wonderful when it's filled up.

I'm pretty sure Junior Brown is ok with recording. Seems like I did years ago but I can't remember if I ran a rig or just went to the show.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #126 on: May 14, 2013, 04:44:59 PM »
I've read that hyper cards are the way to go with audience response mics but I've tried omnis, cards and hyper cards and finally settled on cards with the phase reversed. But I think the choice comes down to the room. Hypers might take some of the boominess out. Omnis, if placed right, might give you some ambiance as well as pick up applause. Too bad you don't have more time to test things to see which would work best in that environment. BTW, watch out for the monitors. You want to avoid picking them up in most cases. No telling what is coming out of them mix-wise.

I've tried hyper, card, and omni.  I prefer the hypers for my recording venue, but I usually run as many as I have channels for.  Don't have to use them in post, but can be nice to have.  I'll typically run a large card on each side of the stage and a hyper and omni in the middle, just because I can.

Depending on the show I might run ADK-tls in split omni at stage lip with my LSD2 in Blumlein in the middle. It depends on how I feel that night, what I expect the audience to be like, etc. I'm really glad I got lazy last Saturday night and didn't use any of those mics, just my C4s in cardioid, because I was recording Selwyn Birchwood and he has a new trick. He played Muddy Waters' "I'm a Man" for the last song. He started waving an empty beer bottle around like it was his dick. At the end he turned and dropped that bottle and picked up a full one, which he shook up and uh, climaxed with. It would have been all over my LSD2 if I put it in place. Beware Jason! He's probably coming your way since he won the International Blues Challenge.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #127 on: May 14, 2013, 04:46:41 PM »
Thanks cybergaloot. I e-mailed him a week ago and I have not heard back. I usually like to get permission before I go, but since I'll be at sound check I can just ask him then.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline kcmule

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2013, 04:51:10 PM »
I was recording Selwyn Birchwood and he has a new trick. He played Muddy Waters' "I'm a Man" for the last song. He started waving an empty beer bottle around like it was his dick. At the end he turned and dropped that bottle and picked up a full one, which he shook up and uh, climaxed with. It would have been all over my LSD2 if I put it in place. Beware Jason! He's probably coming your way since he won the International Blues Challenge.

He'll likely be here before too long.  Thanks for heads up.

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #129 on: May 14, 2013, 04:54:48 PM »
I was recording Selwyn Birchwood and he has a new trick. He played Muddy Waters' "I'm a Man" for the last song. He started waving an empty beer bottle around like it was his dick. At the end he turned and dropped that bottle and picked up a full one, which he shook up and uh, climaxed with. It would have been all over my LSD2 if I put it in place. Beware Jason! He's probably coming your way since he won the International Blues Challenge.

He'll likely be here before too long.  Thanks for heads up.

...stuff like this cracks me up. lol
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #130 on: May 14, 2013, 05:16:01 PM »
I don't know Selwyn Birchwood, but Jr. Brown rocks!  He calls that custom telecaster/lap-steel instrument of his a Guit-Steel.  Great all around artist, equally strong in all three categories of writing, vocals and playing.  Hopefully you are able to record him as he puts on a great show.  I've been to a few of his shows but have never recorded him.  He hasn't been near here in a number of years, but as I recall he was open to taping last I checked.

Perhaps similar to using supercards in place of cards for the audience mics, I sometimes clamp the cardioids below the stagelip, to help further isolate them from the stage sound beyond the directionality of their cardioid pattern.  That is particularly benefitial if I have them near-spaced and angled apart from each other in a typical stereo config, rather than wider spaced and facing straight out at the audience.  The issue in mounting them under the lip is that places them considerably closer and on-axis to people sitting at the front tables and 'spotting' those audience members reactions.  If it's a relatively mellow crowd I can get away with it. 

In your case it may be better with them above the lip anyway, as you might want a bit of stage sound in your audience facing 'ambience' mics.  It's common to put them at the far edges of the stage facing straight out at the audience (super wide spaced), which probably doesn't get them any farther from the front tables in your case, but usually puts the PA on their less sensitive axis and minimizes delay from it.  That's also likely to get those mics far enough away from the other microphones that they are de-corellated so there is less potential phase issues mixing them in, and push the audience ambience toward the outside edges of the playback image leaving room for the direct stuff in the middle- a good thing for a stereo mix but not exactly what I'm shooting for with surround channels.
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #131 on: May 14, 2013, 05:21:10 PM »
I was recording Selwyn Birchwood and he has a new trick. He played Muddy Waters' "I'm a Man" for the last song. He started waving an empty beer bottle around like it was his dick. At the end he turned and dropped that bottle and picked up a full one, which he shook up and uh, climaxed with. It would have been all over my LSD2 if I put it in place. Beware Jason! He's probably coming your way since he won the International Blues Challenge.

He'll likely be here before too long.  Thanks for heads up.

...stuff like this cracks me up. lol

Selwyn's great! If he comes your way do yourself a favor and go! Super nice guy and the band is great as well (drummer's got a big ego but at least his playing keeps up with it). One song Selwyn does is, I think, called "Florida Alligator" and he crawls across the floor during that one. But its not all show, there's plenty of great playing to go with it. He's having a great year. Won the IBCs and got his MBA. His girlfriend Betty Fox has a pretty damn good band as well with Josh Nelms on guitar. That guy is bad ass! Both acts are taper friendly, just get a copy to them.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #132 on: May 15, 2013, 10:05:04 PM »
FWIW, I got permission via e-mail from Tanya Rae Brown today to record Junior Brown.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Jimna

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #133 on: May 15, 2013, 10:18:42 PM »
Nice!
Co-Founder of F.M.Recording 
SD: Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > Grace Lunatec V3 > Busman Hybrid R4
LD: ADK A-51TL MP > Busman Hybrid R4
+ 48 Channel Multi-track rig

Canon 5D Mark II, Canon 2x Extender Mark III, Canon 15mm f2.8, Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM, Canon 100mm Macro f2.8, Canon 16-35mm L f2.8, Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8, Canon 70-200mm L f2.8 IS, Canon ST-E2, Canon 580ex II (x2), Canon 430ex II, PocketWizard PLUS II(x4), Radiopopper PX System

http://jmimna.com/

Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is THE BEST
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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #134 on: May 21, 2013, 11:34:38 AM »
Hey guys. With the tips you gave I made a nice recording:

http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/audio.html

Chuck Snow
Stargazers Theatre
Colorado Springs, CO
May 18, 2013

Track 1: Shure SM58 (Chuck - vocal mic) > AUX return from FOH SBD > Tascam DR-680
Track 2: Direct box (Chuck - acoustic guitar) > AUX return from FOH SBD > Tascam DR-680
Track 3: Shure SM57 (George - pedal steel amp, cone) > AUX return from FOH SBD > Tascam DR-680
Track 4: Peavey PVM 45 mic (George - pedal steel amp, edge) > Tascam DR-680
Track 5: AKG CK61-ULS (DIN (L), on stage between the monitors, center, 3' up, facing audience (phase reversed 180 degrees)) > Naiant AKG Active w/ PFA > Naiant littlekit 2.0 > Tascam DR-680
Track 6: AKG CK61-ULS (DIN (R), on stage between the monitors, center, 3' up, facing audience (phase reversed 180 degrees)) > Naiant AKG Active w/ PFA > Naiant littlekit 2.0 > Tascam DR-680

Listen to track 6, Whichever Way the Wind Blows. I think it's the most successful sounding track. I just balanced the individual channels and didn't mix each track separately or do any automation on the mix down. So the vocal and acoustic guitar are a little uneven for some songs. The mix I did was just a little EQ & reverb, some compression but, no gain riding or ducking of the audience mics between songs etc...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #135 on: May 21, 2013, 11:51:35 AM »
Sounds nice. I did spy this "Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)" Why are you recording 16 bit?
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #136 on: May 21, 2013, 11:58:09 AM »
Sounds nice. I did spy this "Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)" Why are you recording 16 bit?

It's easier for me to record in 16 bit. I have an old computer that chokes on big files.

I also believe that 16 bit captures all the information necessary for a good audio recording. I do understand the advantage in having 24bit masters for big mixdowns etc... But, they take up a lot more space for storage too.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:05:48 PM by Chuck »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #137 on: May 21, 2013, 12:32:49 PM »
Sounds nice. I did spy this "Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)" Why are you recording 16 bit?

It's easier for me to record in 16 bit. I have an old computer that chokes on big files.

I also believe that 16 bit captures all the information necessary for a good audio recording. I do understand the advantage in having 24bit masters for big mixdowns etc... But, they take up a lot more space for storage too.

I thought that maybe file size might be the reason. Time for a new computer! Easy for me to say, I know. And yes, at the right levels 16 bit isn't bad but 24 bit is your friend. Big hard drives are cheap now and just about any computer made in the last six years (or more!) can handle the files. You record nice music and you only get one shot when recording live music so why restrict yourself? I'm not meaning to criticize, just to encourage you!
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #138 on: May 21, 2013, 12:39:28 PM »
Yeah, I know. My playback system isn't the best either, so it's not a priority for me to go to 24 bit.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #139 on: May 21, 2013, 12:46:59 PM »
Yeah, I know. My playback system isn't the best either, so it's not a priority for me to go to 24 bit.

The best thing I did for playback was get some small self-powered studio monitors. Check the reviews but they can be had for as low as $100. You would be amazed at the difference it can make in editing and listening to your recordings even when tied into a passable computer audio card. Mine are 18watt Fostex I got from Chris Church and while they wont make an audiophile drool they sound pretty damn good! Good enough that I hardly ever fire up my home stereo anymore.
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #140 on: May 21, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
My "man cave" DAW playback is a pair of the old Tannoy Reveals (the redwine colored ones). They are passive and I power them with an old Cambridge Audio amp ToddR turned me onto. I also have a cheap Polk subwoofer connected that I use to gauge how strong the bass is on recordings. So, it's not a horrible playback system. The small bedroom dimensions are the real limiting factor, as there are huge swings in bass response depending on where I sit. But, it's what I've got...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #141 on: May 21, 2013, 01:07:12 PM »
I seem to spend my waking hours at home right in front of the computer so the small monitors actually work out better for me than the stereo. Besides, I have so much junk in the living room now that it blocks one of the Klipsh speakers so that is hardly an optimal listening set up. Maybe I should clean the house. NAH!
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #142 on: May 21, 2013, 01:10:32 PM »
Yeah, I have a big playback system in the living room and rarely play music through it. It serves as my 5.1 playback system for movies and TV now.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #143 on: May 21, 2013, 01:15:05 PM »
I have another building on my property and am thinking of building a deck between the two places and using the older one as a studio of sorts. Not a recording studio but a place where I can set up a better listening environment, store my gear, etc. Plus I have a degree in art and I want to get back to that one day. The other building would be great for that.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline rigpimp

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #144 on: May 28, 2013, 03:15:50 AM »
I record mostly acoustic music so I run predominantly on stage or at the lip.  For a long time I preferred to run XY since I was always so close to the source and soon moved to ORTF for the exaggerated separation for wider arrangements.  Now my mic technique is set by eye and ear based on the way everything sounds and how it is set up.

Some of my best recordings are of unamplified string bands (Foghorn Stringband immediately comes to mind) that play seated in a semi-circle with my mics in the middle.  (You just have to keep the Sammy from stomping on the wood floor)  I can't wait to run M/S in that situation!

Here are some of my LMA-friendly pulls:

Acoustic on stage:
http://archive.org/details/dbern2007-11-28.kreider.skm140.v3.flacf
http://archive.org/details/hp2012-06-16.8040.kreider
http://archive.org/details/fmg2007-02-08.kreider.NeumannSKM140

Electric at the lip:
http://archive.org/details/dtb2004-01-22.neumanns.shnf
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2, Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10
Playback: McIntosh MC2105 > McIntosh C39 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #145 on: October 20, 2014, 12:12:59 PM »
On Saturday I recorded three bands that all played on a big stage. I had a DIN pair center, on stage facing the band, a SBD feed plus my audience mics about 30 feet back. I had the hardest time trying to align them all. I've recorded in this place enough to know the MS delay between the AUD mics and the SBD feed, but it was hell trying to get the on-stage pair to match the SBD and AUD perfectly. I've recorded SBD and onstage at the same time and just onstage in the past, but I haven't recorded all three and tried to line them up.

I usually use snare drum rim hits to get the alignment right for SBD and AUD mixes, but it just didn't work perfectly well this time.

Do you guys have any thoughts on the best way to do this? I ended up getting it real close, but since the onstage mics picked the ambient sound of the snare hits plus the PA, it's a compromise at best... It does have a nice full sound to it, which I really like.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Jimna

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #146 on: October 20, 2014, 02:17:17 PM »
sometimes that delay between aud and sbd can become a nice natural reverb....
Co-Founder of F.M.Recording 
SD: Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > Grace Lunatec V3 > Busman Hybrid R4
LD: ADK A-51TL MP > Busman Hybrid R4
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Canon 5D Mark II, Canon 2x Extender Mark III, Canon 15mm f2.8, Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM, Canon 100mm Macro f2.8, Canon 16-35mm L f2.8, Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8, Canon 70-200mm L f2.8 IS, Canon ST-E2, Canon 580ex II (x2), Canon 430ex II, PocketWizard PLUS II(x4), Radiopopper PX System

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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #147 on: October 20, 2014, 02:29:10 PM »
Yeah, as it turned out, I really like the way it all sounds. There's a lot of depth to the recording now.

I'm just wondering if anyone has had the same experience trying to line up three sources, SBD, AUD and on-stage mics together and how they went about doing it. On stage there are so many things happening... to pick it all up with two onstage mics is not ideal, because the sources of the sound are all so spread out. I usually choose to sync the snare hits on the sources, because often, that's the loudest & sharpest source on-stage to sync to. Maybe someone has another method?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline acidjack

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2014, 02:38:19 PM »
Yeah, as it turned out, I really like the way it all sounds. There's a lot of depth to the recording now.

I'm just wondering if anyone has had the same experience trying to line up three sources, SBD, AUD and on-stage mics together and how they went about doing it. On stage there are so many things happening... to pick it all up with two onstage mics is not ideal, because the sources of the sound are all so spread out. I usually choose to sync the snare hits on the sources, because often, that's the loudest & sharpest source on-stage to sync to. Maybe someone has another method?

IME the onstage and the SBD are usually very close, so I will sync the non-onstage AUD to the SBD first, then, keeping the SBD and AUD constant, align the onstage only if I need to. I have found you can usually get away without lining up the onstage, but I will still do it.

Snare hits are my favorite, though spoken word (i.e., banter, particularly if it's just a short word or phrase) can also work since echo is easy to hear on it most of the time too.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2014, 03:23:34 PM »
Which brings up another question...
How picky are you guys about aligning sources?

It probably took me an hour to get the alignment on three sources right for this last batch. Once I had one set aligned, I used the same milli-sec offsets on the other two.

I agonize over it. I edit in CuBase which resolves to hundredths thousandths of a milli-second. I know that's probably ridiculous, but that's what I try to do.

I look at multiple places in the recording for several spots. For the initial attack of the snare, but I also try to match the actual WAV forms, so they're aligned best visually and also sound best. Guitar amps closely miced and basses that are DI'ed are also places I look for alignment.  I can often detect if a soundboard and the PA speakers are in absolute phase to each other too. It's surprising that they are not in phase sometimes. So, I notate the best alignment numbers I come up with and use those as starting points when I record again in the same spot at that venue.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 03:29:13 PM by Chuck »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Jimna

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #150 on: October 20, 2014, 03:30:32 PM »
Same process here, except it takes me about 10mins....
Co-Founder of F.M.Recording 
SD: Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > Grace Lunatec V3 > Busman Hybrid R4
LD: ADK A-51TL MP > Busman Hybrid R4
+ 48 Channel Multi-track rig

Canon 5D Mark II, Canon 2x Extender Mark III, Canon 15mm f2.8, Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM, Canon 100mm Macro f2.8, Canon 16-35mm L f2.8, Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8, Canon 70-200mm L f2.8 IS, Canon ST-E2, Canon 580ex II (x2), Canon 430ex II, PocketWizard PLUS II(x4), Radiopopper PX System

http://jmimna.com/

Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is THE BEST
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Offline acidjack

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #151 on: October 20, 2014, 03:48:49 PM »
Which brings up another question...
How picky are you guys about aligning sources?

It probably took me an hour to get the alignment on three sources right for this last batch. Once I had one set aligned, I used the same milli-sec offsets on the other two.

I agonize over it. I edit in CuBase which resolves to hundredths thousandths of a milli-second. I know that's probably ridiculous, but that's what I try to do.

I look at multiple places in the recording for several spots. For the initial attack of the snare, but I also try to match the actual WAV forms, so they're aligned best visually and also sound best. Guitar amps closely miced and basses that are DI'ed are also places I look for alignment.  I can often detect if a soundboard and the PA speakers are in absolute phase to each other too. It's surprising that they are not in phase sometimes. So, I notate the best alignment numbers I come up with and use those as starting points when I record again in the same spot at that venue.

I just use my ears. I do match the actual waveforms by zooming in on Audition. It takes me about 30 seconds most of the time, unless there isn't a nice clear sound to use. I haven't heard any complaints, but I admire the thoroughness of how you're doing it!
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline tgakidis

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #152 on: October 20, 2014, 03:50:55 PM »
IME the onstage and the SBD are usually very close, so I will sync the non-onstage AUD to the SBD first, then, keeping the SBD and AUD constant, align the onstage only if I need to. I have found you can usually get away without lining up the onstage, but I will still do it.

This is what i find usually.

Same process here, except it takes me about 10mins....

I am with you Jim, no need to agonize Chuck, it's all for fun!
GAKables: Custom XLR, Digi & Batt Cables http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

Mics: Telefunken RFT AR-51 / Telefunken ELA M 260 (tk60,tk61,tk62) / Telefunken M60 / AKG c426b / AKG c414-xls / AKG c460b (ck61,ck62,ck63,ck69,a60,ck1,ck22,ck3,ck8,Blue B6) / nBob AKG Actives>PFA/ nBob AKG Actives>nBox Platinum / Naiant AKG Actives>PFA(x2)/ Microtech Gefell M20>nBob Actives>PFA / AT853 w/ 4.7k Mod (Card,Omni,Sub)
Pre-Amps: Sonosax SX-M2 / Lunatec V3
Recs: Sound Devices MixPre-10T / Sound Devices MixPre-6 / Sound Devices MixPre-3 / Zoom F8 / Sony PCM-M10 / Roland R-07

My Recordings: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%28Gakidis%29&sort=-date

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2014, 03:55:23 PM »
I am with you Jim, no need to agonize Chuck, it's all for fun!

I know. :) It got to the point of ridiculousness this time, because of the three sources. I can do a SBD and AUD alignment in minutes usually.


Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline tgakidis

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2014, 04:04:24 PM »
Try mixing on on-stage pair, a sbd feed and sbd direct outs  :P

https://archive.org/details/ch2011-04-15.414-multitrack.flac

Source 1: AKG c414b-xls(Card,Onstage) > Sonosax SX-M2 > Benchmark AD2K > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 2: SBD Guitar Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 3: SBD Bass Guitar Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Sourve 4: SBD Left Drum Overhead Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Sourve 5: SBD Right Drum Overhead Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 6: SBD Kick Drum Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 7: SBD Mono Mix > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 
GAKables: Custom XLR, Digi & Batt Cables http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

Mics: Telefunken RFT AR-51 / Telefunken ELA M 260 (tk60,tk61,tk62) / Telefunken M60 / AKG c426b / AKG c414-xls / AKG c460b (ck61,ck62,ck63,ck69,a60,ck1,ck22,ck3,ck8,Blue B6) / nBob AKG Actives>PFA/ nBob AKG Actives>nBox Platinum / Naiant AKG Actives>PFA(x2)/ Microtech Gefell M20>nBob Actives>PFA / AT853 w/ 4.7k Mod (Card,Omni,Sub)
Pre-Amps: Sonosax SX-M2 / Lunatec V3
Recs: Sound Devices MixPre-10T / Sound Devices MixPre-6 / Sound Devices MixPre-3 / Zoom F8 / Sony PCM-M10 / Roland R-07

My Recordings: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%28Gakidis%29&sort=-date

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2014, 04:12:07 PM »
Try mixing on on-stage pair, a sbd feed and sbd direct outs  :P

https://archive.org/details/ch2011-04-15.414-multitrack.flac

Source 1: AKG c414b-xls(Card,Onstage) > Sonosax SX-M2 > Benchmark AD2K > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 2: SBD Guitar Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 3: SBD Bass Guitar Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Sourve 4: SBD Left Drum Overhead Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Sourve 5: SBD Right Drum Overhead Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 6: SBD Kick Drum Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 7: SBD Mono Mix > Tascam DR-680(24/48)

Yup, I used to do live sound and mixing on the fly is fun. But, multi-tracking... I don't have the patience for it. The few times I've done it I just handed over the files to the band so that they could have it mixed down by someone else.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline MIQ

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2014, 04:15:49 PM »
Hi Chuck

It is always going to be a compromise where you have to use your ears as the final judge.  The SBD signals will have NO delay between them since they are all close mic'd and electronically combined.  The physical distances between the different sources on stage and the AUD mics will all have different acoustic delays.  You can align the snare hit SBD signal to the AUD mics but the alignment won't be exactly the same as what would be necessary to align the bass amp SBD signal to the AUD mics since the bass amp is likely a different distance to the AUD mics than the snare.  Same goes for all the other sound sources.  This will result in comb filtering of some of the source signals and change their tonality at different frequencies depending on the relative delays.  Add in a third source (stage lip) and it gets even more complicated since there are now time (phase) relationships between 3 sources and the acoustic time differences to the stage lip mics are going to be more different than the acoutsic time differences to the AUD mics.  As you get further and further away from the sound sources, the time differences due to the physical separation between the sources gets smaller and smaller. You need to just listen to the overall sound and use your best judgement on what sounds best to you, there is no "perfect".  It sounds like you are already doing that. 

Offline Jimna

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2014, 04:16:18 PM »
keep in mind that the time signatures (unless the mics were in the same stands in the exact same place) on stereo pairs on stage will always be different and so its sort of impossible to be perfect matching them up.  That made me crazy enough that I started picking the best sounding pair and ditching the other.....eventually I stopped recording more than 1 set on stage for that reason.

ETA: I think we ^^ just said the same thing....

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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2014, 09:26:59 PM »
Here's a link to that three source mix I did over the weekend:

http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/audio.html#stilltide01


The group is The Still Tide. A three piece band from Denver.

Source 1 (AUD): AKG CK63-ULS (PAS, FOB, center, 9' up) > Naiant active w/ PFA > Naiant littlekit 2.0 > Tascam DR-680
Source 2 (AUD): Microtech Gefell M300 (DIN, onstage, center) > Tascam DR-680
Source 3 (SBD): SBD (stereo) > Tascam DR-680
Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)
Digital transfer: SDHC card (USB reader) > PC
Digital editing: CuBase SX 2.0.1 (combine sources, pre and post set fades, WAVES L2 Maximizer, WAVES Q10 Paragraphic EQ)
Tracking & processing for distribution: CD Wave Editor > Trader's Little Helper > FLAC > AudioShell tag editor
Distribution format(s): 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.FLAC) & 190kbps, VBR, stereo (.MP3)


I think it's one of the best recordings I've made in years.




Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline tgakidis

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #159 on: October 21, 2014, 07:06:52 AM »
Here's a link to that three source mix I did over the weekend:

http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/audio.html#stilltide01


The group is The Still Tide. A three piece band from Denver.

Source 1 (AUD): AKG CK63-ULS (PAS, FOB, center, 9' up) > Naiant active w/ PFA > Naiant littlekit 2.0 > Tascam DR-680
Source 2 (AUD): Microtech Gefell M300 (DIN, onstage, center) > Tascam DR-680
Source 3 (SBD): SBD (stereo) > Tascam DR-680
Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)
Digital transfer: SDHC card (USB reader) > PC
Digital editing: CuBase SX 2.0.1 (combine sources, pre and post set fades, WAVES L2 Maximizer, WAVES Q10 Paragraphic EQ)
Tracking & processing for distribution: CD Wave Editor > Trader's Little Helper > FLAC > AudioShell tag editor
Distribution format(s): 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.FLAC) & 190kbps, VBR, stereo (.MP3)


I think it's one of the best recordings I've made in years.

Sounds great Chuck, nice work!
GAKables: Custom XLR, Digi & Batt Cables http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

Mics: Telefunken RFT AR-51 / Telefunken ELA M 260 (tk60,tk61,tk62) / Telefunken M60 / AKG c426b / AKG c414-xls / AKG c460b (ck61,ck62,ck63,ck69,a60,ck1,ck22,ck3,ck8,Blue B6) / nBob AKG Actives>PFA/ nBob AKG Actives>nBox Platinum / Naiant AKG Actives>PFA(x2)/ Microtech Gefell M20>nBob Actives>PFA / AT853 w/ 4.7k Mod (Card,Omni,Sub)
Pre-Amps: Sonosax SX-M2 / Lunatec V3
Recs: Sound Devices MixPre-10T / Sound Devices MixPre-6 / Sound Devices MixPre-3 / Zoom F8 / Sony PCM-M10 / Roland R-07

My Recordings: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%28Gakidis%29&sort=-date

stevetoney

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #160 on: October 21, 2014, 07:41:31 AM »
I'm just an AUD taper, but this discussion raises a noob question.

Realizing that some bands are tighter than others, but for a multi-track recording, wouldn't the differences in band members all being in perfect (or imperfect) rhythm with each other be a bigger issue in ensuring tracks synched than the micro-seconds of delay between tracks being discussed here? 

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #161 on: October 21, 2014, 08:17:26 AM »
I'm just an AUD taper, but this discussion raises a noob question.

Realizing that some bands are tighter than others, but for a multi-track recording, wouldn't the differences in band members all being in perfect (or imperfect) rhythm with each other be a bigger issue in ensuring tracks synched than the micro-seconds of delay between tracks being discussed here?

I work with a guy who multi-tracks his band practice sessions. He says he has to edit his drummer a lot. I think it's crazy to go in there and have to do that. "Get a new drummer," is what I tell him.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

stevetoney

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2014, 08:41:16 AM »
I'm just an AUD taper, but this discussion raises a noob question.

Realizing that some bands are tighter than others, but for a multi-track recording, wouldn't the differences in band members all being in perfect (or imperfect) rhythm with each other be a bigger issue in ensuring tracks synched than the micro-seconds of delay between tracks being discussed here?

I work with a guy who multi-tracks his band practice sessions. He says he has to edit his drummer a lot. I think it's crazy to go in there and have to do that. "Get a new drummer," is what I tell him.

No kidding.  I've never been in a band, but I can't imagine how everyone else can stay in time if the drummer isn't.

There was a band in town that I liked named Sweet Earth...at least I liked their song writing, but they were loose as sh** (would that make them diarrhea?) because IMHO their drummer never just pounded out a rhythm.  He always seemed to try to turn every freaking bar into his own calistentics session and he'd come out of every bar out of synch with everyone else.  They liked to jam their songs, which was great, but their music always fell apart and turned ugly in my ears.  It was a shame because the songs had real potential.  A drum machine would have been better than what they had.  :(

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #163 on: October 21, 2014, 09:45:58 AM »
Sounds great Chuck, nice work!

Thanks Ted. I'm happy with that recording.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #164 on: October 21, 2014, 10:38:42 AM »
The drummer's first duty is to keep the beat.  Otherwise, he needs to go elsewhere.  Too many drummers have yet to figure out the majority of people aren't coming to the show to hear them to be blunt about it. 

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #165 on: October 21, 2014, 11:37:35 AM »
I ended up getting it real close, but since the onstage mics picked the ambient sound of the snare hits plus the PA, it's a compromise at best.

keep in mind that the time signatures (unless the mics were in the same stands in the exact same place) on stereo pairs on stage will always be different and so its sort of impossible to be perfect matching them up.  That made me crazy enough that I started picking the best sounding pair and ditching the other.....eventually I stopped recording more than 1 set on stage for that reason.

ETA: I think we ^^ just said the same thing....

Yeah, the less isolation between pairs, the more the relative differences of timing within each pair play against each other once they are combined.  As more sources with common information are mixed together, the more complex the relative timing interactions become.  Unless the microphone arrangements or combinations are planned specifically with that in mind, things may work out well or may become problematic as more pairs are brought into the mix and the various timing combinations interact.  The only thing one can do is try various sync relationships to find what works best for that particular situation- it might be syncing one set of relative arrivals instead of another set for the same instrument or sound-source, or simply leaving out some recorded channels as Jim notes.

One thing to think about in that light is how many sources with essentially the same information in them you really need before the complications become over difficult to manage?  If you have both an on-stage pair and a direct SBD feed, you have essentially all elements of the direct sound from the band well covered.  At that point the AUD pair becomes mostly useful for providing ambient room and audience reaction sound.  Direct pickup of the PA in the AUD is then redundant information and may simply aggravate things more than benefiting them.  When that's the case, using a setup like spaced omnis for the AUD pair, or pointing directional mics out into the room from onstage, away from the band and PA, or even turning a typical cardioid near-spaced AUD pair around to face away from the band and PA might be more useful than a typical AUD setup of near-spaced cardioids facing the stage. 

But It's always nice to have a normal AUD pair as a redundant fall-back safety if other things go wrong, and the value of that can't be overlooked.

I align things more or less like a-jack notes above.  Snare hits and speech are what I'm looking for.  Speech is usually the easiest source for me to hear immediately and get the timing just right, as long as it is heard well enough in all channels.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #166 on: October 21, 2014, 11:44:54 AM »
And yeah, this is a totally separate issue from bad musician's timing.  No attempts at fixing that for me. 

But, to draw a parallel-  I imagine micro-editing a musician's timing in the DAW requires way more isolation between sources if any two or more musicians are playing concurrently.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #167 on: October 21, 2014, 01:45:22 PM »
I ended up getting it real close, but since the onstage mics picked the ambient sound of the snare hits plus the PA, it's a compromise at best.

keep in mind that the time signatures (unless the mics were in the same stands in the exact same place) on stereo pairs on stage will always be different and so its sort of impossible to be perfect matching them up.  That made me crazy enough that I started picking the best sounding pair and ditching the other.....eventually I stopped recording more than 1 set on stage for that reason.

ETA: I think we ^^ just said the same thing....

Yeah, the less isolation between pairs, the more the relative differences of timing within each pair play against each other once they are combined.  As more sources with common information are mixed together, the more complex the relative timing interactions become.  Unless the microphone arrangements or combinations are planned specifically with that in mind, things may work out well or may become problematic as more pairs are brought into the mix and the various timing combinations interact.  The only thing one can do is try various sync relationships to find what works best for that particular situation- it might be syncing one set of relative arrivals instead of another set for the same instrument or sound-source, or simply leaving out some recorded channels as Jim notes.

One thing to think about in that light is how many sources with essentially the same information in them you really need before the complications become over difficult to manage?  If you have both an on-stage pair and a direct SBD feed, you have essentially all elements of the direct sound from the band well covered.  At that point the AUD pair becomes mostly useful for providing ambient room and audience reaction sound.  Direct pickup of the PA in the AUD is then redundant information and may simply aggravate things more than benefiting them.  When that's the case, using a setup like spaced omnis for the AUD pair, or pointing directional mics out into the room from onstage, away from the band and PA, or even turning a typical cardioid near-spaced AUD pair around to face away from the band and PA might be more useful than a typical AUD setup of near-spaced cardioids facing the stage. 

But It's always nice to have a normal AUD pair as a redundant fall-back safety if other things go wrong, and the value of that can't be overlooked.

I align things more or less like a-jack notes above.  Snare hits and speech are what I'm looking for.  Speech is usually the easiest source for me to hear immediately and get the timing just right, as long as it is heard well enough in all channels.

I usually run a splitter snake to my own board, aud mics at stage lip and a pair of hypers pointing back at the audience for applause etc. I'm thinking of hanging another pair of mics aimed more towards the dance floor for times when a musician leaves the stage to perform acoustically in that area. I had an act do that once during our radio broadcast and they all but disappeared from the mix.
--
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #168 on: October 21, 2014, 01:54:40 PM »
The drummer's first duty is to keep the beat.  Otherwise, he needs to go elsewhere.  Too many drummers have yet to figure out the majority of people aren't coming to the show to hear them to be blunt about it.

A friend was telling us a story about a recording session he was producing. 

He wanted a straight time 4/4 beat from the drums and the drummer (who was a pro) just couldn't do that at all (and kept doing fills and shit).  My friend got so frustrated he finally said get off and I'll play it.  Then he asked each guy in the band to do it and they all played it right.  The drummer was pissed as shit but got back up and finally played it right (and beat the crap out of the kit).  I won't hit the punchline of the session story but as it turns out that drummer now tours with a band where he has to play only a straight beat almost all the time (and makes way more money than the rest of them doing that). 
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Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #169 on: October 21, 2014, 01:59:27 PM »
I usually run a splitter snake to my own board, aud mics at stage lip and a pair of hypers pointing back at the audience for applause etc.

I have also found I like (AKG CK-63) hypers to pick up the applause. For me, those mics make the audience sound the best.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #170 on: October 21, 2014, 02:31:19 PM »
The drummer's first duty is to keep the beat.  Otherwise, he needs to go elsewhere.  Too many drummers have yet to figure out the majority of people aren't coming to the show to hear them to be blunt about it.

A friend was telling us a story about a recording session he was producing. 

He wanted a straight time 4/4 beat from the drums and the drummer (who was a pro) just couldn't do that at all (and kept doing fills and shit).  My friend got so frustrated he finally said get off and I'll play it.  Then he asked each guy in the band to do it and they all played it right.  The drummer was pissed as shit but got back up and finally played it right (and beat the crap out of the kit).  I won't hit the punchline of the session story but as it turns out that drummer now tours with a band where he has to play only a straight beat almost all the time (and makes way more money than the rest of them doing that).

Chuck Berry played our local civic center back a number of year ago. He used local musicians as a band. The guy playing drums was throwing in all sort of rolls and fills. Chuck just stopped and you could see him walk back to the drummer and point at the kick and the snare. They played a bit more then Chuck stopped again, walked back and was gesturing more emphatically. The guy got the picture then and played just a simple backing beat. That guy went on (for better or worse) to record and produce the Creed albums.
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
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PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #171 on: October 21, 2014, 02:36:40 PM »
I usually run a splitter snake to my own board, aud mics at stage lip and a pair of hypers pointing back at the audience for applause etc.

I have also found I like (AKG CK-63) hypers to pick up the applause. For me, those mics make the audience sound the best.

I'll have to see if I can afford a pair. I used to have the applause mics running through a compressor and a graphic EQ set up for ducking. I found that dropping the level around 1kHz helped take away some of the "hollowness" in the sound of the applause. I took that rig out because I didn't have room for it but I now have a new rack and am about to put it back in place. That way I don't have to ride the applause fader as much.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #172 on: October 21, 2014, 05:22:53 PM »
The drummer's first duty is to keep the beat.  Otherwise, he needs to go elsewhere.  Too many drummers have yet to figure out the majority of people aren't coming to the show to hear them to be blunt about it.

A friend was telling us a story about a recording session he was producing. 

He wanted a straight time 4/4 beat from the drums and the drummer (who was a pro) just couldn't do that at all (and kept doing fills and shit).  My friend got so frustrated he finally said get off and I'll play it.  Then he asked each guy in the band to do it and they all played it right.  The drummer was pissed as shit but got back up and finally played it right (and beat the crap out of the kit).  I won't hit the punchline of the session story but as it turns out that drummer now tours with a band where he has to play only a straight beat almost all the time (and makes way more money than the rest of them doing that).

Chuck Berry played our local civic center back a number of year ago. He used local musicians as a band. The guy playing drums was throwing in all sort of rolls and fills. Chuck just stopped and you could see him walk back to the drummer and point at the kick and the snare. They played a bit more then Chuck stopped again, walked back and was gesturing more emphatically. The guy got the picture then and played just a simple backing beat. That guy went on (for better or worse) to record and produce the Creed albums.

LOL.  It does happen a lot... and drums can very easily dominate. 

Seeing a lot of jazz players I think it is a function of the player (and learning the craft) as well as the type of music.  Some of the really fine jazz players still instinctively know when to lay out and when to feature.  I'm thinking of one session in particular where the drummer (who had never played with the principals - piano and bass) just knew exactly how to contribute while adapting his style to leave the bottom wide open for the bassist and adding the perfect accents to kick both of them up a few gears without being overbearing.  Very simple and supportive with a couple of natural solo spots and some traded sections where he interacted with the leads.  Incredible really.  All one take with no rehearsal.  Even a lot of jazz players wouldn't have been able to be so subtle though. 
Gear:
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>
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Offline ycoop

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #173 on: June 20, 2018, 04:10:29 PM »
Another zombie bump from me. 🧟‍♂️

Perused the thread and didn’t find specifics on what situations one would consider on-stage mics as opposed to from the audience (?) mics. Thoughts?
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #174 on: June 20, 2018, 04:38:55 PM »
Another zombie bump from me. 🧟‍♂️

Perused the thread and didn’t find specifics on what situations one would consider on-stage mics as opposed to from the audience (?) mics. Thoughts?

I would run mics on stage if I also had a board feed. I do this often but usually only if I can run my mics back to the board through the snake and take my patch there - or at one small club that I tape at a lot that the board is behind the stage.

Also if it's largely instrumental music or if I can angle out over a monitor to pick up the vocals/acoustic instruments/keys that may be coming out of the pa only.

Also unamplified/non PA jazz.
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Offline ycoop

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #175 on: June 20, 2018, 05:16:34 PM »
Another zombie bump from me. 🧟‍♂️

Perused the thread and didn’t find specifics on what situations one would consider on-stage mics as opposed to from the audience (?) mics. Thoughts?

I would run mics on stage if I also had a board feed. I do this often but usually only if I can run my mics back to the board through the snake and take my patch there - or at one small club that I tape at a lot that the board is behind the stage.

Also if it's largely instrumental music or if I can angle out over a monitor to pick up the vocals/acoustic instruments/keys that may be coming out of the pa only.

Also unamplified/non PA jazz.

The venue happens to be non-amplified music only, so on stage seems like a good option.
Avantone CK-1s > DR-60d mkII, DR-22wl

Offline noahbickart

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #176 on: June 20, 2018, 06:51:19 PM »
Any time there are no vocals.
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Offline tim in jersey

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #177 on: June 20, 2018, 08:08:50 PM »
Any time there are no vocals.

Might not work out so well if it is an acoustic band that run most/all their instruments through DI's...

 

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