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Offline Jimna

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #150 on: October 20, 2014, 03:30:32 PM »
Same process here, except it takes me about 10mins....
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Offline acidjack

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #151 on: October 20, 2014, 03:48:49 PM »
Which brings up another question...
How picky are you guys about aligning sources?

It probably took me an hour to get the alignment on three sources right for this last batch. Once I had one set aligned, I used the same milli-sec offsets on the other two.

I agonize over it. I edit in CuBase which resolves to hundredths thousandths of a milli-second. I know that's probably ridiculous, but that's what I try to do.

I look at multiple places in the recording for several spots. For the initial attack of the snare, but I also try to match the actual WAV forms, so they're aligned best visually and also sound best. Guitar amps closely miced and basses that are DI'ed are also places I look for alignment.  I can often detect if a soundboard and the PA speakers are in absolute phase to each other too. It's surprising that they are not in phase sometimes. So, I notate the best alignment numbers I come up with and use those as starting points when I record again in the same spot at that venue.

I just use my ears. I do match the actual waveforms by zooming in on Audition. It takes me about 30 seconds most of the time, unless there isn't a nice clear sound to use. I haven't heard any complaints, but I admire the thoroughness of how you're doing it!
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Offline tgakidis

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #152 on: October 20, 2014, 03:50:55 PM »
IME the onstage and the SBD are usually very close, so I will sync the non-onstage AUD to the SBD first, then, keeping the SBD and AUD constant, align the onstage only if I need to. I have found you can usually get away without lining up the onstage, but I will still do it.

This is what i find usually.

Same process here, except it takes me about 10mins....

I am with you Jim, no need to agonize Chuck, it's all for fun!
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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2014, 03:55:23 PM »
I am with you Jim, no need to agonize Chuck, it's all for fun!

I know. :) It got to the point of ridiculousness this time, because of the three sources. I can do a SBD and AUD alignment in minutes usually.


Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Offline tgakidis

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2014, 04:04:24 PM »
Try mixing on on-stage pair, a sbd feed and sbd direct outs  :P

https://archive.org/details/ch2011-04-15.414-multitrack.flac

Source 1: AKG c414b-xls(Card,Onstage) > Sonosax SX-M2 > Benchmark AD2K > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 2: SBD Guitar Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 3: SBD Bass Guitar Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Sourve 4: SBD Left Drum Overhead Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Sourve 5: SBD Right Drum Overhead Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 6: SBD Kick Drum Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 7: SBD Mono Mix > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 
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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2014, 04:12:07 PM »
Try mixing on on-stage pair, a sbd feed and sbd direct outs  :P

https://archive.org/details/ch2011-04-15.414-multitrack.flac

Source 1: AKG c414b-xls(Card,Onstage) > Sonosax SX-M2 > Benchmark AD2K > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 2: SBD Guitar Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 3: SBD Bass Guitar Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Sourve 4: SBD Left Drum Overhead Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Sourve 5: SBD Right Drum Overhead Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 6: SBD Kick Drum Direct Out > Tascam DR-680(24/48)
 Source 7: SBD Mono Mix > Tascam DR-680(24/48)

Yup, I used to do live sound and mixing on the fly is fun. But, multi-tracking... I don't have the patience for it. The few times I've done it I just handed over the files to the band so that they could have it mixed down by someone else.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline MIQ

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2014, 04:15:49 PM »
Hi Chuck

It is always going to be a compromise where you have to use your ears as the final judge.  The SBD signals will have NO delay between them since they are all close mic'd and electronically combined.  The physical distances between the different sources on stage and the AUD mics will all have different acoustic delays.  You can align the snare hit SBD signal to the AUD mics but the alignment won't be exactly the same as what would be necessary to align the bass amp SBD signal to the AUD mics since the bass amp is likely a different distance to the AUD mics than the snare.  Same goes for all the other sound sources.  This will result in comb filtering of some of the source signals and change their tonality at different frequencies depending on the relative delays.  Add in a third source (stage lip) and it gets even more complicated since there are now time (phase) relationships between 3 sources and the acoustic time differences to the stage lip mics are going to be more different than the acoutsic time differences to the AUD mics.  As you get further and further away from the sound sources, the time differences due to the physical separation between the sources gets smaller and smaller. You need to just listen to the overall sound and use your best judgement on what sounds best to you, there is no "perfect".  It sounds like you are already doing that. 

Offline Jimna

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2014, 04:16:18 PM »
keep in mind that the time signatures (unless the mics were in the same stands in the exact same place) on stereo pairs on stage will always be different and so its sort of impossible to be perfect matching them up.  That made me crazy enough that I started picking the best sounding pair and ditching the other.....eventually I stopped recording more than 1 set on stage for that reason.

ETA: I think we ^^ just said the same thing....

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Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2014, 09:26:59 PM »
Here's a link to that three source mix I did over the weekend:

http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/audio.html#stilltide01


The group is The Still Tide. A three piece band from Denver.

Source 1 (AUD): AKG CK63-ULS (PAS, FOB, center, 9' up) > Naiant active w/ PFA > Naiant littlekit 2.0 > Tascam DR-680
Source 2 (AUD): Microtech Gefell M300 (DIN, onstage, center) > Tascam DR-680
Source 3 (SBD): SBD (stereo) > Tascam DR-680
Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)
Digital transfer: SDHC card (USB reader) > PC
Digital editing: CuBase SX 2.0.1 (combine sources, pre and post set fades, WAVES L2 Maximizer, WAVES Q10 Paragraphic EQ)
Tracking & processing for distribution: CD Wave Editor > Trader's Little Helper > FLAC > AudioShell tag editor
Distribution format(s): 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.FLAC) & 190kbps, VBR, stereo (.MP3)


I think it's one of the best recordings I've made in years.




Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline tgakidis

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #159 on: October 21, 2014, 07:06:52 AM »
Here's a link to that three source mix I did over the weekend:

http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com/audio.html#stilltide01


The group is The Still Tide. A three piece band from Denver.

Source 1 (AUD): AKG CK63-ULS (PAS, FOB, center, 9' up) > Naiant active w/ PFA > Naiant littlekit 2.0 > Tascam DR-680
Source 2 (AUD): Microtech Gefell M300 (DIN, onstage, center) > Tascam DR-680
Source 3 (SBD): SBD (stereo) > Tascam DR-680
Master format: 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.WAV)
Digital transfer: SDHC card (USB reader) > PC
Digital editing: CuBase SX 2.0.1 (combine sources, pre and post set fades, WAVES L2 Maximizer, WAVES Q10 Paragraphic EQ)
Tracking & processing for distribution: CD Wave Editor > Trader's Little Helper > FLAC > AudioShell tag editor
Distribution format(s): 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo (.FLAC) & 190kbps, VBR, stereo (.MP3)


I think it's one of the best recordings I've made in years.

Sounds great Chuck, nice work!
GAKables: Custom XLR, Digi & Batt Cables http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

Mics: Telefunken RFT AR-51 / Telefunken ELA M 260 (tk60,tk61,tk62) / Telefunken M60 / AKG c426b / AKG c414 xls / AKG c414 B-XLS / AKG c460b (ck61,ck62,ck63,ck69,a60,ck1,ck22,ck3,ck8,Blue B6) / nBob AKG Actives>PFA/ nBob AKG Actives>nBox Platinum / Naiant AKG Actives>PFA / AT853 w/ 4.7k Mod (Card,Omni,Sub)
Pre-Amps: Sonosax SX-M2 / Lunatec V3
Recs: Sound Devices MixPre-10T / Sound Devices MixPre-6 / Sony PCM-M10 / Roland R-07

My Recordings: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%28Gakidis%29&sort=-date

stevetoney

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #160 on: October 21, 2014, 07:41:31 AM »
I'm just an AUD taper, but this discussion raises a noob question.

Realizing that some bands are tighter than others, but for a multi-track recording, wouldn't the differences in band members all being in perfect (or imperfect) rhythm with each other be a bigger issue in ensuring tracks synched than the micro-seconds of delay between tracks being discussed here? 

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #161 on: October 21, 2014, 08:17:26 AM »
I'm just an AUD taper, but this discussion raises a noob question.

Realizing that some bands are tighter than others, but for a multi-track recording, wouldn't the differences in band members all being in perfect (or imperfect) rhythm with each other be a bigger issue in ensuring tracks synched than the micro-seconds of delay between tracks being discussed here?

I work with a guy who multi-tracks his band practice sessions. He says he has to edit his drummer a lot. I think it's crazy to go in there and have to do that. "Get a new drummer," is what I tell him.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

stevetoney

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2014, 08:41:16 AM »
I'm just an AUD taper, but this discussion raises a noob question.

Realizing that some bands are tighter than others, but for a multi-track recording, wouldn't the differences in band members all being in perfect (or imperfect) rhythm with each other be a bigger issue in ensuring tracks synched than the micro-seconds of delay between tracks being discussed here?

I work with a guy who multi-tracks his band practice sessions. He says he has to edit his drummer a lot. I think it's crazy to go in there and have to do that. "Get a new drummer," is what I tell him.

No kidding.  I've never been in a band, but I can't imagine how everyone else can stay in time if the drummer isn't.

There was a band in town that I liked named Sweet Earth...at least I liked their song writing, but they were loose as sh** (would that make them diarrhea?) because IMHO their drummer never just pounded out a rhythm.  He always seemed to try to turn every freaking bar into his own calistentics session and he'd come out of every bar out of synch with everyone else.  They liked to jam their songs, which was great, but their music always fell apart and turned ugly in my ears.  It was a shame because the songs had real potential.  A drum machine would have been better than what they had.  :(

Offline Chuck

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #163 on: October 21, 2014, 09:45:58 AM »
Sounds great Chuck, nice work!

Thanks Ted. I'm happy with that recording.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: Microtech Gefell M300, AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements, CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and mod-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #164 on: October 21, 2014, 10:38:42 AM »
The drummer's first duty is to keep the beat.  Otherwise, he needs to go elsewhere.  Too many drummers have yet to figure out the majority of people aren't coming to the show to hear them to be blunt about it. 

 

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