Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: on-stage taping  (Read 26238 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12433
  • Gender: Male
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #165 on: October 21, 2014, 11:37:35 AM »
I ended up getting it real close, but since the onstage mics picked the ambient sound of the snare hits plus the PA, it's a compromise at best.

keep in mind that the time signatures (unless the mics were in the same stands in the exact same place) on stereo pairs on stage will always be different and so its sort of impossible to be perfect matching them up.  That made me crazy enough that I started picking the best sounding pair and ditching the other.....eventually I stopped recording more than 1 set on stage for that reason.

ETA: I think we ^^ just said the same thing....

Yeah, the less isolation between pairs, the more the relative differences of timing within each pair play against each other once they are combined.  As more sources with common information are mixed together, the more complex the relative timing interactions become.  Unless the microphone arrangements or combinations are planned specifically with that in mind, things may work out well or may become problematic as more pairs are brought into the mix and the various timing combinations interact.  The only thing one can do is try various sync relationships to find what works best for that particular situation- it might be syncing one set of relative arrivals instead of another set for the same instrument or sound-source, or simply leaving out some recorded channels as Jim notes.

One thing to think about in that light is how many sources with essentially the same information in them you really need before the complications become over difficult to manage?  If you have both an on-stage pair and a direct SBD feed, you have essentially all elements of the direct sound from the band well covered.  At that point the AUD pair becomes mostly useful for providing ambient room and audience reaction sound.  Direct pickup of the PA in the AUD is then redundant information and may simply aggravate things more than benefiting them.  When that's the case, using a setup like spaced omnis for the AUD pair, or pointing directional mics out into the room from onstage, away from the band and PA, or even turning a typical cardioid near-spaced AUD pair around to face away from the band and PA might be more useful than a typical AUD setup of near-spaced cardioids facing the stage. 

But It's always nice to have a normal AUD pair as a redundant fall-back safety if other things go wrong, and the value of that can't be overlooked.

I align things more or less like a-jack notes above.  Snare hits and speech are what I'm looking for.  Speech is usually the easiest source for me to hear immediately and get the timing just right, as long as it is heard well enough in all channels.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Online Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12433
  • Gender: Male
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #166 on: October 21, 2014, 11:44:54 AM »
And yeah, this is a totally separate issue from bad musician's timing.  No attempts at fixing that for me. 

But, to draw a parallel-  I imagine micro-editing a musician's timing in the DAW requires way more isolation between sources if any two or more musicians are playing concurrently.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline cybergaloot

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4005
  • Gender: Male
  • Poohbah!
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #167 on: October 21, 2014, 01:45:22 PM »
I ended up getting it real close, but since the onstage mics picked the ambient sound of the snare hits plus the PA, it's a compromise at best.

keep in mind that the time signatures (unless the mics were in the same stands in the exact same place) on stereo pairs on stage will always be different and so its sort of impossible to be perfect matching them up.  That made me crazy enough that I started picking the best sounding pair and ditching the other.....eventually I stopped recording more than 1 set on stage for that reason.

ETA: I think we ^^ just said the same thing....

Yeah, the less isolation between pairs, the more the relative differences of timing within each pair play against each other once they are combined.  As more sources with common information are mixed together, the more complex the relative timing interactions become.  Unless the microphone arrangements or combinations are planned specifically with that in mind, things may work out well or may become problematic as more pairs are brought into the mix and the various timing combinations interact.  The only thing one can do is try various sync relationships to find what works best for that particular situation- it might be syncing one set of relative arrivals instead of another set for the same instrument or sound-source, or simply leaving out some recorded channels as Jim notes.

One thing to think about in that light is how many sources with essentially the same information in them you really need before the complications become over difficult to manage?  If you have both an on-stage pair and a direct SBD feed, you have essentially all elements of the direct sound from the band well covered.  At that point the AUD pair becomes mostly useful for providing ambient room and audience reaction sound.  Direct pickup of the PA in the AUD is then redundant information and may simply aggravate things more than benefiting them.  When that's the case, using a setup like spaced omnis for the AUD pair, or pointing directional mics out into the room from onstage, away from the band and PA, or even turning a typical cardioid near-spaced AUD pair around to face away from the band and PA might be more useful than a typical AUD setup of near-spaced cardioids facing the stage. 

But It's always nice to have a normal AUD pair as a redundant fall-back safety if other things go wrong, and the value of that can't be overlooked.

I align things more or less like a-jack notes above.  Snare hits and speech are what I'm looking for.  Speech is usually the easiest source for me to hear immediately and get the timing just right, as long as it is heard well enough in all channels.

I usually run a splitter snake to my own board, aud mics at stage lip and a pair of hypers pointing back at the audience for applause etc. I'm thinking of hanging another pair of mics aimed more towards the dance floor for times when a musician leaves the stage to perform acoustically in that area. I had an act do that once during our radio broadcast and they all but disappeared from the mix.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline bombdiggity

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2234
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #168 on: October 21, 2014, 01:54:40 PM »
The drummer's first duty is to keep the beat.  Otherwise, he needs to go elsewhere.  Too many drummers have yet to figure out the majority of people aren't coming to the show to hear them to be blunt about it.

A friend was telling us a story about a recording session he was producing. 

He wanted a straight time 4/4 beat from the drums and the drummer (who was a pro) just couldn't do that at all (and kept doing fills and shit).  My friend got so frustrated he finally said get off and I'll play it.  Then he asked each guy in the band to do it and they all played it right.  The drummer was pissed as shit but got back up and finally played it right (and beat the crap out of the kit).  I won't hit the punchline of the session story but as it turns out that drummer now tours with a band where he has to play only a straight beat almost all the time (and makes way more money than the rest of them doing that). 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Online Chuck

  • Trade Count: (41)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10567
  • Gender: Male
  • time between the notes...
    • My recordings on the LMA
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #169 on: October 21, 2014, 01:59:27 PM »
I usually run a splitter snake to my own board, aud mics at stage lip and a pair of hypers pointing back at the audience for applause etc.

I have also found I like (AKG CK-63) hypers to pick up the applause. For me, those mics make the audience sound the best.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cybergaloot

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4005
  • Gender: Male
  • Poohbah!
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #170 on: October 21, 2014, 02:31:19 PM »
The drummer's first duty is to keep the beat.  Otherwise, he needs to go elsewhere.  Too many drummers have yet to figure out the majority of people aren't coming to the show to hear them to be blunt about it.

A friend was telling us a story about a recording session he was producing. 

He wanted a straight time 4/4 beat from the drums and the drummer (who was a pro) just couldn't do that at all (and kept doing fills and shit).  My friend got so frustrated he finally said get off and I'll play it.  Then he asked each guy in the band to do it and they all played it right.  The drummer was pissed as shit but got back up and finally played it right (and beat the crap out of the kit).  I won't hit the punchline of the session story but as it turns out that drummer now tours with a band where he has to play only a straight beat almost all the time (and makes way more money than the rest of them doing that).

Chuck Berry played our local civic center back a number of year ago. He used local musicians as a band. The guy playing drums was throwing in all sort of rolls and fills. Chuck just stopped and you could see him walk back to the drummer and point at the kick and the snare. They played a bit more then Chuck stopped again, walked back and was gesturing more emphatically. The guy got the picture then and played just a simple backing beat. That guy went on (for better or worse) to record and produce the Creed albums.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline cybergaloot

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4005
  • Gender: Male
  • Poohbah!
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #171 on: October 21, 2014, 02:36:40 PM »
I usually run a splitter snake to my own board, aud mics at stage lip and a pair of hypers pointing back at the audience for applause etc.

I have also found I like (AKG CK-63) hypers to pick up the applause. For me, those mics make the audience sound the best.

I'll have to see if I can afford a pair. I used to have the applause mics running through a compressor and a graphic EQ set up for ducking. I found that dropping the level around 1kHz helped take away some of the "hollowness" in the sound of the applause. I took that rig out because I didn't have room for it but I now have a new rack and am about to put it back in place. That way I don't have to ride the applause fader as much.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline bombdiggity

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2234
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #172 on: October 21, 2014, 05:22:53 PM »
The drummer's first duty is to keep the beat.  Otherwise, he needs to go elsewhere.  Too many drummers have yet to figure out the majority of people aren't coming to the show to hear them to be blunt about it.

A friend was telling us a story about a recording session he was producing. 

He wanted a straight time 4/4 beat from the drums and the drummer (who was a pro) just couldn't do that at all (and kept doing fills and shit).  My friend got so frustrated he finally said get off and I'll play it.  Then he asked each guy in the band to do it and they all played it right.  The drummer was pissed as shit but got back up and finally played it right (and beat the crap out of the kit).  I won't hit the punchline of the session story but as it turns out that drummer now tours with a band where he has to play only a straight beat almost all the time (and makes way more money than the rest of them doing that).

Chuck Berry played our local civic center back a number of year ago. He used local musicians as a band. The guy playing drums was throwing in all sort of rolls and fills. Chuck just stopped and you could see him walk back to the drummer and point at the kick and the snare. They played a bit more then Chuck stopped again, walked back and was gesturing more emphatically. The guy got the picture then and played just a simple backing beat. That guy went on (for better or worse) to record and produce the Creed albums.

LOL.  It does happen a lot... and drums can very easily dominate. 

Seeing a lot of jazz players I think it is a function of the player (and learning the craft) as well as the type of music.  Some of the really fine jazz players still instinctively know when to lay out and when to feature.  I'm thinking of one session in particular where the drummer (who had never played with the principals - piano and bass) just knew exactly how to contribute while adapting his style to leave the bottom wide open for the bassist and adding the perfect accents to kick both of them up a few gears without being overbearing.  Very simple and supportive with a couple of natural solo spots and some traded sections where he interacted with the leads.  Incredible really.  All one take with no rehearsal.  Even a lot of jazz players wouldn't have been able to be so subtle though. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline ycoop

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 288
  • Gender: Male
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #173 on: June 20, 2018, 04:10:29 PM »
Another zombie bump from me. 🧟‍♂️

Perused the thread and didn’t find specifics on what situations one would consider on-stage mics as opposed to from the audience (?) mics. Thoughts?
Avantone CK-1s > DR-60d mkII, DR-22wl

Offline goodcooker

  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2618
  • Gender: Male
  • goes to 11
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #174 on: June 20, 2018, 04:38:55 PM »
Another zombie bump from me. 🧟‍♂️

Perused the thread and didn’t find specifics on what situations one would consider on-stage mics as opposed to from the audience (?) mics. Thoughts?

I would run mics on stage if I also had a board feed. I do this often but usually only if I can run my mics back to the board through the snake and take my patch there - or at one small club that I tape at a lot that the board is behind the stage.

Also if it's largely instrumental music or if I can angle out over a monitor to pick up the vocals/acoustic instruments/keys that may be coming out of the pa only.

Also unamplified/non PA jazz.
Schoeps MK41 > nBob > PFA || MBHO KA300 > PFA
Aerco MP2 || Grace Lunatec V2 || RAD MS2
Marantz PMD706 || PMD620

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City

"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline ycoop

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 288
  • Gender: Male
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #175 on: June 20, 2018, 05:16:34 PM »
Another zombie bump from me. 🧟‍♂️

Perused the thread and didn’t find specifics on what situations one would consider on-stage mics as opposed to from the audience (?) mics. Thoughts?

I would run mics on stage if I also had a board feed. I do this often but usually only if I can run my mics back to the board through the snake and take my patch there - or at one small club that I tape at a lot that the board is behind the stage.

Also if it's largely instrumental music or if I can angle out over a monitor to pick up the vocals/acoustic instruments/keys that may be coming out of the pa only.

Also unamplified/non PA jazz.

The venue happens to be non-amplified music only, so on stage seems like a good option.
Avantone CK-1s > DR-60d mkII, DR-22wl

Offline noahbickart

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1834
  • Gender: Male
  • So now I wander over grounds of light...
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #176 on: June 20, 2018, 06:51:19 PM »
Any time there are no vocals.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline tim in jersey

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3375
  • Gender: Male
Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #177 on: June 20, 2018, 08:08:50 PM »
Any time there are no vocals.

Might not work out so well if it is an acoustic band that run most/all their instruments through DI's...

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.239 seconds with 40 queries.
© 2002-2018 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF