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Author Topic: on-stage taping  (Read 27842 times)

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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2013, 10:19:18 PM »
In other news, my onstage recording of Dennis Rea large ensemble's 1/25 performance is going to be released on moonJune records later this year.
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Offline LikeASong

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2013, 06:33:00 AM »
Small practice room and it's reflections could easily be part of the problem for you. Try onstage in a live setting and see. If not, go with the classic audience recording.
Ok, will try next month, thank you very much :)
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2013, 10:39:01 AM »
I don't have 2 recorders at the moment so I have to choose between doing SBD (which I actually don't like much, I always prefer the sound of naturally amplified and recorded music) or on-stage. Our stage monitors use to be very balanced and softly mixed so I guess they  would be a good taping source, but I'm seriously concerned about the drums. I mean, I record our rehearsals in a very small (4x5 meters) room and the drums come out prominently always, even when the recorder & mics are placed the farthest possible from the drumkit... So I would guess that on-stage recording would have a similar problem if not worse, due to the stage providing an actually shorter distance between recorder and drumkit.

THanks for the help though :)

I record regularly with mics onstage (actually stage lip) and my own soundboard mix. I use those mics mainly to add more of an ambiance. My problem with drums is actually getting them loud enough to be clear without drowning out the other instruments but then I record in a small club, not a confined practice space. Maybe the practice space needs some acoustic treatments?

If you have access to AC then a small mixer like the Allen & Heath ZED-10fx can give you more options than a two channel recorder. They go for about $220 on eBay (I'm looking at a used one for $120 locally). Of course that means a little mixing on the fly and they aren't exactly something you can stick in your taper bag but if you only occasionally want more channels, its a way to go. We get that taper mentality of wanting everything battery powered, lightweight and small and sometimes forget that there are other approaches.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2013, 12:33:55 PM »
In other news, my onstage recording of Dennis Rea large ensemble's 1/25 performance is going to be released on moonJune records later this year.

Congratulations!

..and agreed that the small practice room is likely to be the source of the problems, LikeASong.  Without that heavy load of reflected sound cluttering everything up, there will be more room for the other instruments to breathe and be heard between and around the drum transients, even though the direct sound from the kit may be at about the same level as in the practice room.  It may well translate as drum clarity rather than excessive drum dominance.  Definitely worth giving it a try.


I drove up coast last weekend to record a friend's band playing a beach party and a volunteer fire department awards diner the following night.  There was no good way to put mics out in the room full of banquet tables.  I had the R44 with me with the idea of recording a mic pair + SBD, but for several reasons I didn’t end up recording the SBD mix. That concerned me because except for electric guitar and bass, the band is very PA reliant with vox, acc guitar, keys and an electronic drum kit all dependant on monitors and PA. 

I instead put four mics on-stage directly in front of the electronic drum kit facing out into the room- cards in ORTF between omnis spaced about 3’. Basically positioned center stage and in a good spot to record the on-stage sound the band was hearing and self-mixing.  Two floor monitors at the lip about 7 feet away or so faced towards the band and the mics, a rearward facing drum monitor was directly beneath the mics, bass and guitar amps off to the sides.  As the band self-mixed from the stage, I sent hand signals from the back of the room to help them dial in the PA.  The room sound was decent, but their on-stage monitor mix was superior and made for a much better recording than I could have made from a position out front in the room.  The electronic drums actually sounded quite good and was what made it possible to put the mics right up against the kit facing out without the recording being drum dominated. Interestingly the sound of the sticks hitting the trigger pads was picked up by the omnis and sounds like subtle, low-level, very-on time stereo claps- like there was a skillful backup singer/percussionist.. instead of the way to common over enthusiastic drunk chick with bad rhythm and zero consistency.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 12:37:04 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2013, 08:22:16 PM »
I have run my mk21s onstage/stagelip a few times now for local bands, and they KILL IT :) Cant wait to use them stagelip at a bigger venue and when Im really FOB at festivals :)
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2013, 10:50:56 PM »

I drove up coast last weekend to record a friend's band playing a beach party and a volunteer fire department awards diner the following night.  There was no good way to put mics out in the room full of banquet tables.  I had the R44 with me with the idea of recording a mic pair + SBD, but for several reasons I didn’t end up recording the SBD mix. That concerned me because except for electric guitar and bass, the band is very PA reliant with vox, acc guitar, keys and an electronic drum kit all dependant on monitors and PA. 


That live/session thing referenced in the jazz thread came to pass and it was quite educational...  We wound up experimenting (which I'd have preferred not to be doing at that moment) but good ideas came about (I think). 

The intent was to go totally unamplified - though that presents challenges with a shifting and somewhat large and disparate configuration (acoustic piano, drums, double bass and up to three saxes).  The natural levels of all of those being quite different it becomes a big challenge.  My initial thought was to just go strictly ambient with a mic on the piano running through the PA to get the piano to a comparable level (the pianist was the leader on the date).  I thought the bassist was going to bring a small amp as he usually does for live shows, but he didn't. 

After some experimentation what we had was: my mics over the piano (one direct to a channel on the R-44 and another into the PA to provide some piano monitor and to the ambient mics).  My Naks were actually far more directional and better than the house mics so I used those for that.  The bassist brought a DPA instrument mic he uses for recordings that clips to the strings, so that was another channel.  I ran the Schoeps for the drums/horns (more ambient in feel).  Ultimately an advantage was that I had a direct mic on the two instruments that are always lost in an onstage band mix. 

As it turns out rather than going off the ambient and sweetening with the direct piano/bass I may build off the piano mic since there was a fair bit of bleed (as expected in a live or basically live environment, which is conducive to an improvised group feel but not ideal for a recording setting compared to studio isolations).  So I may be sort of sweetening with the "ambient' set. 

Most of my jazz listening friends always complain that acoustic piano is never properly in the mix so I was happy to find ways to resolve that issue.  In the future I'm going to fly at least one mic over the piano into the R-44 for anything I can.  I actually think it would be a useful strategy to fly a pair over the piano toward the band since that might be about the right mix with most players...  It's sort of hard to position that correctly though since the lid intervenes... 

I was also quite pleased with the DPA (which has very good isolation - a little bleed but not much).  If I could I would invest in a few of those with the various mounts (since they sell the same mic as an instrument mic for piano, bass, other strings, horns, guitar, etc.) 

I never intentionally multitrack so this is all going to be new ground for me.  The results seem good though I'd have preferred not to be improvising too.  But I've got some new strategies I think I'll really like.  I think I'm going to want to move on from 4 channels though if I do this more... 

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2013, 10:31:18 AM »
Sounds like a good approach.  You might clamp a pair of mics to the upper edge of the piano lid with the lid up full-stick, or remove the lid completely if that's allowable. 

DPA makes both miniature omni and supercardioid microphones with numerous instrument mounts.  I assume the bass player was using one of the omnis since the supercardioids have a rolled off low frequency response.  If so, the islolation in that case is due entirely to the mic's close proximity to the bass, using the clip which attaches to mic to the strings beneath the bridge I assume.  Could have been the supercardioid, which has an integral foam windscreen, is longer than the omnis, and usually mounts with a body clamp and flexible gooseneck.  If you want increased isolation of the piano, the DPA omnis have magnetic mounts which can be attached directly to the frame of the piano.  Or as an alternate approach to putting a different main pair up over the piano to pick up a good bit of the other instruments as well, you can tape two of the omnis to the underside of the piano lid up full-stick, which boundary mounts them to the surface, as long as the lid opening points more or less towards the other instruments in the group.
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2013, 08:09:05 PM »


Thanks. I dont have any omnis since still kind of new to the onstage thing and usually tsping stage lip with an audience I don't want on the recording.

I'm getting the itch to try some though. 

I'm definitely going to experiment on some piano orientations with the extra channels/mics.  Naks seemed like a good start with that.  Prior experience indicates the 4V's need considerable distance from the piano not to bake it. 

The DPA was one of those that clips to the strings with a small gooseneck underneath.  It did not seem omni since very isolated but maybe the proximity/orientation does it.

My sounding board (a musician outside this aggregation) said we definitely have the material for a second album with a somewhat different lineup that played live following the main project so we got s nice two-fer. 
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Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline acidjack

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2013, 11:40:07 AM »


Thanks. I dont have any omnis since still kind of new to the onstage thing and usually tsping stage lip with an audience I don't want on the recording.

I'm getting the itch to try some though. 

I'm definitely going to experiment on some piano orientations with the extra channels/mics.  Naks seemed like a good start with that.  Prior experience indicates the 4V's need considerable distance from the piano not to bake it. 

The DPA was one of those that clips to the strings with a small gooseneck underneath.  It did not seem omni since very isolated but maybe the proximity/orientation does it.

My sounding board (a musician outside this aggregation) said we definitely have the material for a second album with a somewhat different lineup that played live following the main project so we got s nice two-fer.

I know we've talked about this before, but I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by what an onstage omni can do.  Unless the crowd is pretty much talking OVER the music to the point that you cannot hear it, the sound energy from the onstage instruments should more than overwhelm any light audience noise.  I've used it for quiet guitar stuff, louder rock, etc. and never really had an issue.
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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2013, 12:16:09 PM »
I know we've talked about this before, but I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by what an onstage omni can do.  Unless the crowd is pretty much talking OVER the music to the point that you cannot hear it, the sound energy from the onstage instruments should more than overwhelm any light audience noise.  I've used it for quiet guitar stuff, louder rock, etc. and never really had an issue.

yeah, I agree with that with one addition; I've found it's not audience noise, but isolation from the rest of the stage that's the issue if you're trying to spot mic something. If you're doing multi-channel recording with the theory that you'll start with 2 channels and augment those with spot mics, the omnis work great as the 2 tracks but not as the spots.
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Offline mysticeyes

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2013, 12:24:15 PM »
I love omnis on stage, up to three or four of them across the front, when possible  :)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2013, 03:45:00 PM »
Last night I revised the setup slightly which I've posted about here previously.

Here's a photo of the setup last month, which I posted here a few pages back-


..and below are a few from last night (looks like I need to find a new photo hosting service, Flickr apparently no longer allows direct embeded links to photos.  The downward spiral of all things connected to Yahoo continues unabated it would seem.  Bye bye Flickr). Details in my next post.

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2013, 03:49:19 PM »
neato!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2013, 05:54:51 PM »
Arrg!

Just lost a half-hour post explaining the differences between the setup last month and last night and the reasoning behind it, with links to the Williams MMAD pages, etc.   

Oh well.  Below are photos of the Williams diagrams I used.  Top one specifies 5 supercardioids and is what I used this month, only I substituted cardioids for the rear facing pair but kept the spacing and angles the same.  The cards were clamped below the stage-lip as before, to reduce their pickup of direct sound from the stage, yet sound arriving from the sides rear are unobstructed to all mics so the side image linking should work.  The bottom diagram specifies 5 cardioids, and is what I loosely based the audience facing surround pair arrangement on last month.  I want the increased directionality and level difference provided by using the supercards on-stage though, so I haven't tried that cardioid arrangement all the way around, even though those dimentions are achievable with the three leg light stand base I'm using.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 10:43:14 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: on-stage taping
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2013, 05:57:35 PM »
uno más-
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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