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Author Topic: Spaced omni with center card festy sample  (Read 4203 times)

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Offline boltman

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 03:45:11 PM by boltman »

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 11:49:40 PM »
Quote from: soundcloud
Sorry! We can't find that sound.

Did you try to access a private sound, but were not logged in?
Maybe the sound has been removed.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 05:10:33 PM »
Sorry.
https://soundcloud.com/backwoodsman-1/3-mic-clip

No worries, as an enthusiast for this technique I was happy to see this thread pop up. Thanks for sharing the sample.  I'll try an give a listen tonight if I get a chance.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline boltman

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 11:39:47 PM »
Clip is up.  Needed some TLC.

Feedback welcome.

Marshall7

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2013, 01:20:59 AM »
I'm interested to know how you mix the two sources in post.

Offline boltman

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2013, 10:59:10 AM »
In Audacity, pulled up three tracks: omnis panned hard left and right.  Cardioid center in mono.  Each track brought up to -4 dB, then mixer board function used to determine balance of card vs. omni pair in mix.

The PA sound was pretty awful and it required a significant amount of EQ to get an acceptable mix.

Was inspired to do this after reading Gutbucket's post--and I thank him for the inspiration to try it.

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2013, 01:20:27 PM »
Oops, never got a chance that night and it slipped my mind.  I'll give it a listen tonight.

Marshall, you need to at least carefully balance the level of the center card verses the omnis.  Here's what I do when mixing this to 2-channel stereo:

1) Bring up the Left/Right A-B spaced omnis only, panned hard left/right. Balance their levels to get an even playback image.  EQ if necessary to get them sounding acceptable. Then mute those channels.

2) Listen to the center cardioid alone to make sure it doesn’t have obvious problems.  EQ if necessary to get it sounding acceptable, except you needn't worry too much about a lack of bass response in the center cardioid. Mute that channel.

3) Unmute the L/R omnis.  Unmute and slowly bring up the level of the center cardioid, panned center, until it fills the center of the playback image and provides more "presence and proximity" than the omnis have alone, producing a smooth and solid panorama all the way across from left through center to right.  Experiment with various levels, sometimes "just barely enough" center to be audible is optimal, sometimes about the same level as the omnis is right, and sometimes a good bit more level than left/right is best.  Choose whatever works best for the particular recording you are working on. Listen for a while each way before making a temporary decision and moving on.

4) Fine tune the EQ and level settings.  You have a powerful added degree of freedom in EQing things in that you can compensate somewhat for the center verses the left/right response and play them off each other.  This can be very useful or highly confusing.  The omnis are going to have better bass response, the center card is probably going to have more direct mids and highs.  You can tailor each with EQ to complement the other beyond what you would have done with either alone, adn that can work really well, but don't go too overboard.

Part of what makes this work well is the wide omni bass at the sides of the image, and more direct mids and highs at center.  To keep from going crazy with options, EQ the L/R and the center separately first so they sound good alone as a starting point, except as mentioned previously you needn't worry too much about lack of bass response in the center card, and you also don't need to wory as much as you might have about getting enough clear mids in the omnis alone.  Get a good working level balance between them, then play around with EQing the center and sides slightly differently to get the best imaging.

I often end up with something of a diffuse field EQ on the omnis which emphasizes the ambient room sound (some high treble boost, but not as much midrange boost as I would use if I didn’t have the center cardioid in there).  I also often cut a good bit of the bottom end and contour the low mids from the center cardioid to keep things from getting muddy or confusing.  When you try differnet EQ settings, go back and rebalance the levels again. 

After playing around with this for a few recordings you’ll get a general idea of what typically works, but the specific settings will be different for each recording. I usually have a fourth channel which is a rear facing center cardioid and bring that up last to balance crowd reaction, depth, and ambience.

If you are mixing to 3 speakers (Left/Center/Right) instead of 2 channel left/right stereo, the process is the same, but you may arrive at slightly different settings.  If you have a home theater setup, try that out, it’s really cool.  It’s great even with three channels, but with four I split the rear facing cardioid channel to feed all the surround speakers equally and the overall effect when you get the levels and EQ right across all channels is like a the holodeck- you are there.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Marshall7

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2013, 03:49:56 PM »
Hey, thanks Gutbucket.  Excellent explanation. 

Offline boltman

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 08:08:03 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm a definite neophyte since this is my first attempt.  Thanks for the details on this technique, Gut.  Very much appreciated.

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2013, 04:30:37 PM »
Got a chance to listen.  I don't hear any obvious problems. Good direct/reverberant balance and live & open sense of depth and space, which are the strong points of the technique.  Other techniques are stronger on sharp Left-to-Right stereo imaging which can be great when applicable, but I think that's less important in the grand scheme of things and only applies in circumstances when there was significant Left/Right imaging at the recording location, not just good direct/ambient balance and spaciousness anyway.  There  often isn't much significant Left/Right imaging going on in a lot of the situations we record in to begin with, unless you are getting a large percentage of direct sound from instruments on stage or from from a stereo PA.  I don't know anything about the venue though. Have you recorded there before in a similar situation with a different config?  If so, how does this sample compare?  That's the best way I know to really asses it.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline boltman

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2013, 12:28:38 AM »
I'm away from home this week, but I'll post a supercard-DINa sample from the same festival when I get back.  Thanks for the feedback, Gut.

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2013, 03:46:23 PM »
Mk. 41 sample at the top.

Offline yates7592

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2013, 03:21:29 AM »
Interesting thread.

Question for Gutbucket:
The centre cardioid source - if in its raw state it is 2-channel stereo, is it best to mix it down to mono first before attempting the matrix, or just leave it as 2-channel?

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2013, 11:25:54 AM »
Doesn't matter as long as the two channels are simply identical copies, but curious why would it be 2-channel.  One mic routed to two channels on the recorder?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline yates7592

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Re: Spaced omni with center card festy sample
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2013, 11:47:09 AM »
I could run 4 mics and hence 4 channels, so 2 x stereo pairs. So you would recommend mixing down the 2 x cardioid channels into mono for this exercise?

 

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