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Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted

they are both as safe as any other akaline or ion battery
13 (65%)
rechargeable AA are safe, but not 9v
2 (10%)
rechargeable 9v are safe, but not AA
0 (0%)
Neither Should be Trusted
0 (0%)
I have no clue, but want to feel cool and submit a vote
5 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Author Topic: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted  (Read 9661 times)

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Offline Phil Zone

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Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« on: September 01, 2013, 07:12:15 PM »
what do you think

post bellow in detail what your thoughts are and experiences are

« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 07:18:08 PM by Phil Zone »
Microphones: Busman BSC-1, AKG C460B/CK61/CK63, Samson CL2, CA-14 (cards), Naiant X-X
Preamps: Naiant Littlebox [X3] (OT)(OT/IT)(OT/Black), Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Sony PCM-M10, Tascam DR-05
Software: Sony Sound Forge/ Vegas, TLH
Photo: Canon 7D Mark ii/70D, 70-200 f2.8, 18-135 STM, 55-250 STM, Tamron 17-50 f2.8, Tokina 11-16 f2.8

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 12:40:27 AM »
Never used rechargeable 9vs, but have been using rechargeable AAs since 2011, and IMO, are very reliable. They are NIMH AAs FWIW. Energizer 2300mah AAs 8)
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax |  2x CA/ALO SPC Litz | Sony MUC-M2BT1 LDAC MMCX Cables ->
Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
(Pentium i5 Processor/8gb RAM/256gb SSD)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline pdxdanmusic

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 08:58:09 AM »
I have been using Sanyo Eneloop brand AA for over a year. I just ran a test yesterday with my MixPre to see how long they would last with P48 and got 3 hours and 20 minutes. I would most likely swap them between sets.

Online edtyre

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 03:50:51 PM »
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 03:55:17 PM by edtyre »
music>mics>pre>recorder

Offline perks

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 11:38:04 PM »
I trust that rechargeable batteries cost less than alkalines over the long haul by a wide margin.
Mics: Schoeps MK5, Schoeps MK41, AT853u (C,SC,H,O)
Preamps/converters: Schoeps VMS52UB (x2), Nbox (x2), E.A.A. PSP-2 (x2) Grace Lunatec V2 (for sale), Sound Devices MP-2 (for sale), DPA MMA6000, Naiant Tinybox v1.5, Naiant PiPsqueak, Church Ugly, Apogee Mini-Me, Benchmark AD2k+
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Korg MR-1, Edirol R-05, Sony PCM-M10 (x2), Tascam DR-07, Marantz PMD-661

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 01:51:52 AM »
Been using both of these for years. Only had one battery fail and it wasn't even in the field.

For 9 Volts

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/883815-REG/Powerex_MHR9VI_IMEDION_Ready_When.html

for AA

http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-MAHA-POWEREX-Four-2700-mAh-AA-NIMH-Rechargeable-Batteries_p_20.html

Ed, thank you very much for the link to the rechargeable 9vs ;) How long have you been using the rechargeable 9vs ??? I will probably buy some rechargeable 9vs so I dont waste $$ on my LittleBox[OT] that takes 9vs ;) I can run my 9v LB on LOW POWER and lose a couple dbs of headroom, but I did that at Rootwire last month and I cannot hear anything audible from running on LOW POWER. So Im pretty confident that I could get some rechargeable 9vs to last a whole show with an opening band + headliner ;)
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax |  2x CA/ALO SPC Litz | Sony MUC-M2BT1 LDAC MMCX Cables ->
Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
(Pentium i5 Processor/8gb RAM/256gb SSD)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

stevetoney

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 01:25:32 PM »
My general answer is that rechargeables can be trusted just as much as an alkaline, but there are LOTS of qualifying caveats associated with that general answer.  In some cases, Alkalines are going to be better, in others rechargeables.  In MOST general applications though, I don't think either battery chemistry would give me any more or less concern over the other.

However, the more detailed answer is to basically agree with Jon's response above, except that I don't particularly agree that one battery is better or worse, even say if rechargeables are old and have higher internal resistance.  IR isn't bad, in and of itself, as long as you recognize what it does to battery performance and deal with that in the application you're using the battery for.  For example, it's possible that someone might want a battery with high IR for some reason. 

Anyway, as Jon said, when you get into the particulars of battery performance, analyzing one chemistry against another can be quite complex.  It's all a matter of considering the variables associated with the particular battery you're using (voltage delivered, internal resistance, battery calendar age, battery 'number of cycles' age, discharge curve, etc.) vs. the variables associated with the device being powered (voltage needed for power operation, current draw, cut out voltage, run times needed, continuous draw vs. momentary draw, etc.).  Each of the battery variables may or may not have a desirable impact on the variables impacting end device performance.  And the specific performance goals you have for the end device might be variable depending on the different ways you use the device.

Offline Phil Zone

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 05:10:53 PM »
What's the life of these 9v, maybe 2 years?
Microphones: Busman BSC-1, AKG C460B/CK61/CK63, Samson CL2, CA-14 (cards), Naiant X-X
Preamps: Naiant Littlebox [X3] (OT)(OT/IT)(OT/Black), Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Sony PCM-M10, Tascam DR-05
Software: Sony Sound Forge/ Vegas, TLH
Photo: Canon 7D Mark ii/70D, 70-200 f2.8, 18-135 STM, 55-250 STM, Tamron 17-50 f2.8, Tokina 11-16 f2.8

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 08:17:28 PM »
Been using both of these for years. Only had one battery fail and it wasn't even in the field.

For 9 Volts

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/883815-REG/Powerex_MHR9VI_IMEDION_Ready_When.html

Same here.  My current set of 4 has been in rotation for 2 years and is going strong.  These are the newer Low Self Discharge version of the Maha 9.6V battery.  This battery is 9.6V nominal, typically measures closer to 10.5 or more freshly charged, and drops to about 9 under load by the time I recharge them.  You must use the dedicated 9.6V charger with these, not any old 9V charger.  It is designed to skirt the less than 9V with typical "NiMH 9V" problem Jon mentions by adding an extra stack.  Here is the alternate Maha which measures 8.4V- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Imedion-84V-250-mAh-Low-Discharge-Rechargeable-Battery_p_2457.html.  It has a slightly higher mAh rating at the lower voltage.  I much prefer LSD NiMH for my uses even though they have a few less mAhs than non-LSD.

I previously used the white cased Powerex 9.6V (non Low Self Discharge version) and they lasted almost exactly 2 years in regular weekly use.  I had one of the old white ones expand and blister the case, and Thomas immediately sent a replacement.  I've had no issues with the new LSD 'Imedion' version which I prefer, are easier to manage and I think last longer (they have already).

Here's one Imedion LSD 9.6V + the necessary four bay charger at Thomas-
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-MAHA-MH-C490F-9-Volt-9V-Battery-Charger-Combo-Kit-with-1-Maha-Imedion-96V-230-mAh-Rechargeable-Battery--World-AC-Adapter-and-12V-Power-Cord_p_860.html

Quote
for AA

http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-MAHA-POWEREX-Four-2700-mAh-AA-NIMH-Rechargeable-Batteries_p_20.html

I prefer the Imedion version for the same reason as the 9.6Vs-  Slightly lower mAh rating but the LSD performance easily makes up for that in dependability and longevity-

http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-Maha-Imedion-AA-2400mAh-Rechargeable-Batteriesbr-Low-Discharge_p_2252.html

The only problem I had with either of these was recognizing end of life with the first batch I used, which I corrected by switching to a better charger that can monitor and refresh the cells, allowing matching and clear determination of their end of useful recording life- but the old ones live on in non-critical applications like remotes and wall clocks.

My advice is to get quality LSD batteries (Imedion or Eneloop) and the correct, quality chargers if switching to NiMH from Alkalines.  The cost for the good ones is quickly recooped in comparison to disposables.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2013, 08:34:50 AM »
Please note I specifically do *not* recommend using single NiMH 9Vs in littlebox, because the capacity is too low and their internal resistance is too high.  High resistance causes DC converter circuits to drop in efficiency quite a lot, combine that with low capacity and high-draw 48V phantom mics and you could be looking at a half-hour runtime.

You have to have a dual 9V littlebox to run NiMHs and 48V phantom power, and even that will give you slightly less than single 9V alkaline runtime.  Hotswapping might not be possible with dual 9V NiMHs as the sudden loss of one battery could cause the DC converter to fail to achieve full voltage, which will act practically as a short circuit to the remaining battery.  You would need to hotswap well short of full runtime, maybe 50% full runtime to be safe.

WOW, thank you SOOO much for the info Jon. I was concerned about the rechargeable 9vs runtimes, but figured that I could maybe get away with it when running on LOW POWER on my LB. Guess not! And theyre way too expensive to buy and not work correctly and give me long enough runtimes :) So, what Im saying is: I will just continue to use alkaline 9vs. My local Sams Club has a package of [8] Energizer MAX 9v alkalines for just $16.00. Not bad at all IMO! I will still continue to run them on LOW POWER regardless. That way, instead of lasting 6hrs on HIGH POWER with my 9v LB, I can now get 18hrs on my LB on LOW POWER. So, thats around 2-3 shows for me. Not too shabby! I bet I could make [8] Energizer MAX 9v alkalines last me all fall/winter/spring until festie season comes around.

At All Good and Rootwire, I have only gone through [4] 9v batteries total at BOTH festies 8) I can DEF live with that!!! So I have [4] left, and those should get me through fall hopefully. And for the price, I guess I can live with buying alkaline 9vs from now on. And its DEF worth it to me since I LOVE the Schoeps>LB[OT] sound. So whatever I gotta do to keep that sound, I will just have to do ;) I bet [16] Energizer MAX 9vs will last me ALL YEAR. Maybe even less than that. But what Im getting at is, For $36/year for batteries for my LB, I can DEF live with that ;) 8)

Rambling done..........
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax |  2x CA/ALO SPC Litz | Sony MUC-M2BT1 LDAC MMCX Cables ->
Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
(Pentium i5 Processor/8gb RAM/256gb SSD)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline Phil Zone

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2013, 10:09:36 AM »
Please note I specifically do *not* recommend using single NiMH 9Vs in littlebox, because the capacity is too low and their internal resistance is too high.  High resistance causes DC converter circuits to drop in efficiency quite a lot, combine that with low capacity and high-draw 48V phantom mics and you could be looking at a half-hour runtime.

You have to have a dual 9V littlebox to run NiMHs and 48V phantom power, and even that will give you slightly less than single 9V alkaline runtime.  Hotswapping might not be possible with dual 9V NiMHs as the sudden loss of one battery could cause the DC converter to fail to achieve full voltage, which will act practically as a short circuit to the remaining battery.  You would need to hotswap well short of full runtime, maybe 50% full runtime to be safe.

WOW, thank you SOOO much for the info Jon. I was concerned about the rechargeable 9vs runtimes, but figured that I could maybe get away with it when running on LOW POWER on my LB. Guess not! And theyre way too expensive to buy and not work correctly and give me long enough runtimes :) So, what Im saying is: I will just continue to use alkaline 9vs. My local Sams Club has a package of [8] Energizer MAX 9v alkalines for just $16.00. Not bad at all IMO! I will still continue to run them on LOW POWER regardless. That way, instead of lasting 6hrs on HIGH POWER with my 9v LB, I can now get 18hrs on my LB on LOW POWER. So, thats around 2-3 shows for me. Not too shabby! I bet I could make [8] Energizer MAX 9v alkalines last me all fall/winter/spring until festie season comes around.

At All Good and Rootwire, I have only gone through [4] 9v batteries total at BOTH festies 8) I can DEF live with that!!! So I have [4] left, and those should get me through fall hopefully. And for the price, I guess I can live with buying alkaline 9vs from now on. And its DEF worth it to me since I LOVE the Schoeps>LB[OT] sound. So whatever I gotta do to keep that sound, I will just have to do ;) I bet [16] Energizer MAX 9vs will last me ALL YEAR. Maybe even less than that. But what Im getting at is, For $36/year for batteries for my LB, I can DEF live with that ;) 8)

Rambling done..........

Does yours have an option for other power sources like the din3? I use 9.6v rc batteries and they cost $16 each and last at least 10 hours each. I have 3 and they work great and save money!
Microphones: Busman BSC-1, AKG C460B/CK61/CK63, Samson CL2, CA-14 (cards), Naiant X-X
Preamps: Naiant Littlebox [X3] (OT)(OT/IT)(OT/Black), Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Sony PCM-M10, Tascam DR-05
Software: Sony Sound Forge/ Vegas, TLH
Photo: Canon 7D Mark ii/70D, 70-200 f2.8, 18-135 STM, 55-250 STM, Tamron 17-50 f2.8, Tokina 11-16 f2.8

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

stevetoney

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2013, 10:31:31 AM »
Please note I specifically do *not* recommend using single NiMH 9Vs in littlebox, because the capacity is too low and their internal resistance is too high.  High resistance causes DC converter circuits to drop in efficiency quite a lot, combine that with low capacity and high-draw 48V phantom mics and you could be looking at a half-hour runtime.

You have to have a dual 9V littlebox to run NiMHs and 48V phantom power, and even that will give you slightly less than single 9V alkaline runtime.  Hotswapping might not be possible with dual 9V NiMHs as the sudden loss of one battery could cause the DC converter to fail to achieve full voltage, which will act practically as a short circuit to the remaining battery.  You would need to hotswap well short of full runtime, maybe 50% full runtime to be safe.

I think this same issue is seen on a DR-100MKii when the unit is being powered from NiMH AA batteries and phantom power to mics is turned on...and particularly with older NiMH batteries that tend to have higher internal resistance due to their age.  People reported really short run times before the unit cut out on them.  The issue comes up when phantom is needed, but not when the unit is being powered without phantom on.   

The strange thing is that apparently the same thing happened to the DR100 and its been reported that Tascam was able to fix that with a firmware update (no way I can verify if this is true though).  The assumption was that there was a low voltage cutout and the firmware changed that cutout voltage to a lower point.  But Jon your message above indicates that assumption might not be correct.  It might just be that cetain components won't operate below a certain voltage and that's what determines the point at which the unit stops working correctly, so in that case the low voltage cut would be a design and/or battery issue, not a firmware issue
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 10:36:36 AM by tonedeaf »

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 03:57:41 PM »
People reported really short run times before the unit cut out on them.   
[snip]
Tascam was able to fix that with a firmware update (no way I can verify if this is true though). 

Same story with the Tascam DR-2d.

Using my 2-1/2 yr old AA NiMH Imedions (unmatched, old charger) and the original firmware it would run for 15-20 min.
With new AA NiMH Imedions (and bought with improved charger) it ran it for a couple hrs.
After the firmware update the same new batteries ran it for 5-6hrs and have continued to do so for about 2yrs.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 07:02:01 PM »
It's not voltage per se but current.  Of course, as you demand more current from a high internal resistance battery, then the voltage supplied by the battery will drop under load, so you can think about it either way.  However, you always have to consider voltage under load, not open circuit voltage.  This is why you have to test battery age under load, otherwise you will not know.

After some head scratching, that's what I realized when troubleshooting what was going on with the first set of non LSD 9.6V NiMH as they reached the end of their useful life.  I had been checking their open circuit voltage after use, which looked fine.  However, when I started checking them under load while still in the device, their voltage was low.  I now always check them under load after use.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Poll: Can Rechargeable AA/9v Batteries be Trusted
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2013, 01:34:36 AM »
People reported really short run times before the unit cut out on them.   
[snip]
Tascam was able to fix that with a firmware update (no way I can verify if this is true though). 

Same story with the Tascam DR-2d.

Using my 2-1/2 yr old AA NiMH Imedions (unmatched, old charger) and the original firmware it would run for 15-20 min.
With new AA NiMH Imedions (and bought with improved charger) it ran it for a couple hrs.
After the firmware update the same new batteries ran it for 5-6hrs and have continued to do so for about 2yrs.

Yeah, when I bought my DR2D a couple years ago, I was getting 5.5 hours with 2-year old Energizer 2300mah AA NIMHs :) I cant remember if that was before or after the firmware update tho ??? I dont ever remembering updating the firmware when I had mine tho!
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax |  2x CA/ALO SPC Litz | Sony MUC-M2BT1 LDAC MMCX Cables ->
Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
(Pentium i5 Processor/8gb RAM/256gb SSD)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

 

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