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Author Topic: new DPA 4018 supercardioid  (Read 14387 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2013, 11:02:30 AM »
Looks good!
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2019, 09:08:36 AM »
resurrecting this thread, sorry

has anyone used the 4018V or VL vocal mic caps? these are more common and can be had for ~$800 ea

specs seem identical to the 4018 except for the fact they are are less sensitive (5mv/PA vs 12 for the regular 4018), and the steep rolloff below 100K (EDIT: testing confirms rolloff is when used with the vocal mic body that has a second-order rolloff built in. when used on regular mic bodies they appear to be similar to the usual 4018 capsules) . would these be unsuitable for our use when combined with the proximity effect?

does the cap have a drastically different response, or is the 100Hz rolloff a result o the vocal mic enclosure?

4018: https://www.dpamicrophones.com/ddicate/4018-supercardioid-microphone

4018V/VL: https://www.dpamicrophones.com/dfacto/vocal-microphone
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 06:20:33 AM by jerryfreak »
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Offline blee421

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2019, 03:02:25 AM »
The 4018 MMP ER is looking pretty sexy there. Would the MMP-C 4018 sound better/different??  MMP-C uses xlr cables opposed to being hardwired.

Bruel & Kjaer 4011’s

Apogee Mini MP > Sonic AD2K+

Sound Devices MixPre 3, Microtrack II 2496

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2019, 07:28:09 AM »
The 4018 MMP ER is looking pretty sexy there. Would the MMP-C 4018 sound better/different??  MMP-C uses xlr cables opposed to being hardwired.

from what i gather sound should be the same but headroom is reduced

somehting like
A body = 138 dB SN
C body= 136
E =131
G (microdot) = 122

122 is still pretty far above a mic capsule's S/N ratio, and WAY above the S/N of a room youd be field taping in. it *might* be a compromise for a studio application but not for ours

E should be nearly identical to the old 402x series

there may be some sonic differences from what i gather with the mini ones like E and G because i think they use different circuits ased around thin film FETs but thats out of my wheelhouse.

C should sound similar to A though some have described it as different ("warmer"?)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2019, 09:46:26 AM »
resurrecting this thread, sorry

has anyone used the 4018V or VL vocal mic caps? these atre more common and can be had for $700 ea

specs seem identical to the 4018 except for the fact they are are less sensitive (5mv/PA vs 12 for the regular 4018), and the steep rolloff below 100K. would these be unsuitable for our use when combined with the proximity effect?

does the cap have a drastically different response, or is the 100Hz rolloff a result o the vocal mic enclosure?

4018: https://www.dpamicrophones.com/ddicate/4018-supercardioid-microphone

4018V/VL: https://www.dpamicrophones.com/dfacto/vocal-microphone

There is no compensating low frequency boost due to proximity effect at the distances from which we are recording when taping.  Proximity effect typically begins to occur once the microphone is moved to a position about one meter away from the source and becomes significant at distances about half that.

If mixing with omnis or subcards the low-frequency roll off ceases to be a problem for music recording, and could actually be considered a feature.  If using the V or VL version as a single pair for music recording, the low-frequency roll off will be less desirable and will generally require EQ to compensate, unless it happens to be appropriate for reducing bloated bass from overdriven subs.

My interpretation-
~The low frequency roll off of both the V an VL version is presumably built into the capsule.
~Other than the low frequency roll-off, the VL version (L= Linear) has about the same response as the standard 4018, other differences in the response and polars at high frequencies at are probably due to the housing/mesh-screen surrounding the capsule and not from the capsule itself.
~The V version includes a high frequency shelf boost.  It appears less peaky and lower in level than the boost of other vocal mics, and is similar to the response of as some other taper mics, including the miniature DPAs.  That could serve as a feature rather than a bug, providing compensation for thick windscreens and high frequency attenuation at typical taper distances, although in general folks who are attracted to these mics typically are looking for a flat response.


What do the standard 4018 caps sell for, comparatively?

« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 10:28:07 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2019, 05:09:50 AM »
bare 4018 caps are $1300 list, can be haggled down near $1200. getiing into any new cap + any of the dpa preamps starts around $1500

ive seen those vocal mics on ebay for $700-$900 new/NOS. technically if you had phantom you could mount those right on a stand as is and go to town

while i have your ear, and pursuant to a conversation across several other threads now, would you say that larger diameter supercardshypercards (mk41, 4018, ak50, etc) have less of a problem with proximity effect than smaller diameter microphones (4098,4099, at853, etc).

 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2019, 11:10:50 AM »
while i have your ear, and pursuant to a conversation across several other threads now, would you say that larger diameter supercardshypercards (mk41, 4018, ak50, etc) have less of a problem with proximity effect than smaller diameter microphones (4098,4099, at853, etc).

As far as I'm aware, proximity effect correlates with how much bi-directional component there is in the pickup pattern, not diaphragm or housing size.  The closer to figure-8 the pattern is, the more bass-boost will occur from proximity effect at close mic-ling distances.  Perhaps DSatz may clarify for us, as he has far deeper knowledge on these things.

Of the supercards I have on hand, I don't detect more proximity effect in the DPA 4098 than the Gefell M210.  I can't recall testing the proximity effect of the supercardioid pattern on the large diaphragm ADK TLs I have, but I expect they would fall in line similarly.

What is most influential is the intended use of the microphone, as the microphone's frequency response is tailored for achieving a particular response at a mic'ing distance typical of that intended use, taking proximity effect into account.  If the microphone is intended for producing a flat low-frequency output when used for close instrument or vocal mic'ing (ignoring the common midrange contouring of vocal mics), the native response of the microphone will be tailored so as to attenuate the lower frequencies which are boosted by proximity effect when the microphone is placed close to the source, with the overall end result being a flat response.  That same microphone will have attenuated low frequency content for the pickup of any sources located farther away.

By contrast, a microphone intended to have a flat response at greater mic'ing distances will have a native response with increased low frequency response, such that when used up close it will sound very bass-heavy, but when used at the intended distance it will produce the intended response, and when used farther away than that it will have reduced bass response, if not nearly as much as the previous microphone.

In other words, proximity effect is an aspect of directional microphone patterns and bass response for most directional mics will vary with mi'cing distance due to it.  Most the variation occurs in close proximity to the microphone.  In the significantly more distant range from which we are taping music it's not really varying dramatically anymore, and may either be compensated for via the native response of the microphone, via EQ boost afterwards, or via mixing in another source with increased low-frequency content such as a pair of omnis.

An interesting exception is EV's variable-D technology which reduces proximity effect variation at close-mic'ing distances.  It strikes me as perhaps being a cousin to the principle behind interference tube microphones, yet with the multiple tuned path port lengths used on the rear vent entry side of the capsule rather than the front as in a shotgun mic.

EV variable-D https://youtu.be/0MDxZ2LDANA
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2019, 11:40:13 AM »
The "correct" answer is to use a microphone intended for the application.  DSatz has stated many times on TS that cardioids intended for close vocal pickup or instrument mic'ing (most of them) are not really appropriate for stereo pair recording of music at greater distances.  Yet there is a long history of tapers using microphones and other gear intended for alternate applications, so discussion of viable "work arounds" which compensate for the mismatch between intended application of a microphone and the way we are using it are not out of place here at TS.

Proximity effect (or rather the lack of it's low frequency reinforcement) causes the 4098 sound thin on its own with distant sources, yet makes it sound nice and rich when I sing or play guitar into it at close distance.

I've posted elsewhere about how I was able to substitute DPA 4098 in place of MG M210 in my OMT rigs even though the 4098 has significantly less bass response at the distances from which I'm recording, because I always use them in combination with a pair of DPA 4061 omnis.  In those arrangements the response of the 4098 serves as a "pre-EQ" feature rather than a just a negative feature, sort of like a built in complementary EQ curve that works well with the response of the 4061 omnis.

The V versions of the 4018 may be able to be used similarly, although the non-V versions would typically be prefered for a straight stereo pair taper recording.

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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2019, 06:56:46 PM »
bare 4018 caps are $1300 list, can be haggled down near $1200. getiing into any new cap + any of the dpa preamps starts around $1500

ive seen those vocal mics on ebay for $700-$900 new/NOS. technically if you had phantom you could mount those right on a stand as is and go to town

while i have your ear, and pursuant to a conversation across several other threads now, would you say that larger diameter supercards/hypercards (mk41, 4018, ak50, etc) have less of a problem with proximity effect than smaller diameter microphones (4098,4099, at853, etc).

was browsing B&H

new MMC caps:
4018: $1310
4018V: $820

WTF?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2019, 09:28:01 AM »
^ Priced to suit what the market will bear.  The vocal mic market is far more competitive, and DPA doesn't have history there.  But that's just a guess.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 09:10:49 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2019, 09:09:19 PM »
i picked up a used 4018VL with an SL1 adapter for shure/sony/lectro wireless mics. i believe this is the SM58 standard and should provide 5V bias to the mic (via the adapter in this case) , so there might be an opportunity to reverse engineer the circuit in the adapter that takes 5V and powers the cap


I will compare the VL next to the 4099, and possibly the regular 4018 which i plan on borrowing from DPA this summer. im not 100% convinced the rolloff is in the capsule itself, it might be in the handle or adapter. check out this blurb from the DPA manual for the d:facto series (emphasis mine)

https://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/28939-DPAdfactoUsersManual.pdf

"Please note that all electric and acoustic specifications apply to the wired DPA Handle unless otherwise stated. The DPA Handle is designed with a permanent 3rd order low-cut filter (-3 dB at 80 Hz) to remove unwanted handling, pop and wind noise."



in any case, if i cant get around the rolloff,a Q about expected roll off response when combined with proximity effect.

I couldnt find a proximity effect graph for the supercards here is the proximity effect of a 4011 card.



and a 4026 subcard (this one has 10m mark so we can somewhat judge relative effects at large distances)



compare that to the 4018VL response, its 3rd order HPF is pretty similar to the proximity rolloff at 10m



so will these rolloffs be doubled up when VL series is used at a distance, or would the combined effect be slightly reduced relative to simply summing them?

« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 05:41:39 AM by jerryfreak »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: new DPA 4018 supercardioid
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2019, 11:07:33 AM »
I took a look at the manual you posted a link to above.

Other DPA capsules than the 4018V can be used with the D:facto II handle.  The permanent 3rd order low-cut filter (-3 dB at 80 Hz) in the handle is in series with (is subtracted from) the native response of whatever capsule is used with it.

The graphs for the 4011 and 4028 above show the response of those capsules at various measurement distances without that low-cut filtering applied.
The graph for the 4018V shows the response of that capsule at a single measurement distance (12cm) and does include the low-cut filtering of the handle.

Unfortunately there are no response curves for the 4018V at measurement distances greater than 12cm, but that measurement distance is similar to the 0.1m measurement line on the 4011 and 4026 graphs. Given that, we can only really make a direct comparison of the 4018V's on-axis curve (at 12cm) against the 1.0m measurement distance lines of the 4011 and 4026 graphs above 100Hz. Doing so eliminates the filtering influence of the handle, but includes proximity response of the as near equivalent close measurement distances. 

Comparing responses at 100Hz at a 10 to 12cm measurement distance:
4028 (subcardioid) looks to be about +7dB up
4011 (cardioid) looks to be about +9dB up
4018V (supercardioid) looks to be -2.5dB down

We know that all else being equal, the impact of proximity response becomes greater as pattern directionality is increased from subcardioid to cardioid, and again from cardioid to supercardioid.  Because of that, if the 4018V did not have a "vocal mic tailored response" it would be expected to have a response up more than the 4011.  Lets assume up by +2dB, which is the difference between the subcardioid 4028 and the cardioid 4011.  That would make it +11dB rather than -2.5dB if it did not have "low frequency vocal tailoring". 

So we can assume that the difference of around -14dB at 100hz and that measurement distance is due to the "low frequency vocal tailoring" of the 4018V.  Keep in mind that figure is just my wild approximation and is probably not accurate, but does illustrate the general trend.

Quoted from the manual-
"To gain full flexibility of your d:facto II, more MMC modular capsules
are available, but only the MMC4018V has been tweaked for close
vocal use with lowered sensitivity and application tailored low frequency response.
"

« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 11:13:00 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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