Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement  (Read 4700 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline johnieappel

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Gender: Male
    • chapman photography
SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« on: December 18, 2013, 01:40:26 AM »
I'm sure this topic has been gone over numerous times, hoping to get some idea's - I'm looking for suggestions for on stage mic placement for doing a sbd/aud. matrix recording at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco. Maybe some of you have done one there before. I have for the past 3 years for the Mother Hips Holiday shows & I've tried xy at the center of the stage lip one time, and 16 feet apart a couple other times. I get decent results but have wondered about other placements. I've noticed when going to see bands that sell live recordings of their show afterwards, as a download or on a thumbdrive, there has been mics placed on stage left & right facing each other.Some of the times they look like sure sm57's. I've got some AKG 460's w/ ck61's or ck63's caps  or a pair of Dorsey Modded Oktava MK-012's to consider using. Both have sounded great in the past. Here is a link to one of the shows :
https://archive.org/details/MotherHips2011-12-18.matrix.flac

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Is a 4 channel slut and
  • Trade Count: (125)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40657
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 02:24:49 AM »
It depends how big the stage is. Personally, I can't go wrong with ORTF or WideORTF, which is 27cm/110*. I would def use the cards too ;)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 06:46:27 PM by F.O.Bean »
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman & Shanling M0 ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax & Westone Bluetooth MMCX Cables ->
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Westone UM Pro 30 (G1 & G2) IEM's -> Comply Isolation+ Memory Foam Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline fsulloway

  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1675
  • Gender: Male
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 07:03:54 AM »
I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.
schoeps ccm4's
AKG ck62, ck63, ck61
Nbob/pfa, Naiant/pfa
CAFS, CA Ugly
oade m148, V3
DR680, M10

"Wilmington, North Carolina....Let us hear your motherf***in' pride!" Patterson Hood 12-09-04

"Just About Unwound From Chasing Down The Sound"

Offline tgakidis

  • Trade Count: (529)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5618
  • Gender: Male
    • My Recordings on the Archive:
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 08:32:45 AM »
I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.

This is what i do alot, but with split subcards and NOS cards, with great results.
GAKables: Custom XLR, Digi & Batt Cables http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

Mics: Telefunken RFT AR-51 / Telefunken ELA M 260 (tk60,tk61,tk62) / Telefunken M60 / AKG c426b / AKG c414-xls / AKG c460b (ck61,ck62,ck63,ck69,a60,ck1,ck22,ck3,ck8,Blue B6) / nBob AKG Actives>PFA/ nBob AKG Actives>nBox Platinum / Naiant AKG Actives>PFA / AT853 w/ 4.7k Mod (Card,Hyper,Omni,Sub)
Pre-Amps: Sonosax SX-M2 / Lunatec V3
Recs: Sound Devices MixPre-10T / Sound Devices MixPre-6 / Sound Devices MixPre-3 / Zoom F8 / Sony PCM-M10 / Roland R-07

My Recordings: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%28Gakidis%29&sort=-date

Offline page

  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8392
  • Gender: Male
  • #TeamRetired
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 10:07:06 AM »
WideORTF, which is 27cm/90*

110, not 90. carry on.

I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.

this would be my tendency.

The bigger question when I'm pulling sbd channels is this: what am I lacking if I just took the sbd feed? That's different at each venue/performance so think about that carefully as you look at the stage (see what's mic'd and an understanding of how loud each instrument would be if it wasn't mic'd). If they only mic some things (overheads, vocals, maybe the bass) but not others, then you want to capture as much of that other stuff as possible to compliment the sbd feed. I did a performance last night where they miced the two horns but not the wurlitzer, bass, or drums, so I knew if I was going to take the sbd feed, I'd have to do something on stage to account for those other three. Are you setting up after soundcheck? Maybe ask the person running sound FOH if they are light on some stuff in the mix for the room.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline ScoobieKW

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1653
    • ScoobieSnax Audio Archive
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 10:49:29 AM »
Depends on the size of the band. Stereophonic Zoom concepts still apply, so estimate the angle between the farthest left amp and the farthest right amp. (or instruments if we are talking an acoustic act) then adjust mics to fit the situation.

Saying that, I tend to run X/Y onstage as it's easy and tends to work well with hard panned stereo board feed.
Busman BSC1, AT853 (O,C),KAM i2 Chuck Mod (C), Nak 300 (C),
M10, UA-5, US-1800, Presonus Firepod

http://kennedy-williams.net/scoobiesnax/

Offline yltfan

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 02:39:51 PM »
Not ideal, but it seems to work well for what I'm doing: two cardioid mics (cheaper ones that I'm not too worried about getting kicked around--Nak 300, AT 3031, or AKG C1000) basically on the ground (away from wedges if possible), on both sides of the stage, pointed at amps. There usually is not space, or approval, for running a real stand in the center, so this is what I've come up with. But I like it because it minimizes the drums in the middle. Mixed in with a board feed and an audience pair, it usually adds the right stuff.
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM184, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AKG C1000, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: Oade Wmod UA-5, CA-9100
Recorders: DR-680, iriver 120, iriver 340, plus some dust-collecting minidisc, jb3, and DAT

Dime torrents: http://www.dimeadozen.org/account-details.php?id=88009

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12185
  • Gender: Male
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 06:00:46 PM »
Not ideal, but it seems to work well for what I'm doing: two cardioid mics (cheaper ones that I'm not too worried about getting kicked around--Nak 300, AT 3031, or AKG C1000) basically on the ground (away from wedges if possible), on both sides of the stage, pointed at amps. There usually is not space, or approval, for running a real stand in the center, so this is what I've come up with. But I like it because it minimizes the drums in the middle. Mixed in with a board feed and an audience pair, it usually adds the right stuff.

A SBD or a coincident AUD pair would mix well with those wide-spaced cardioids to 'fill the middle'.  Other AUD mic arrangements may work fine too, but the tendency toward center-heaviness and the phase-coherent nature would reduce the potential of problems when mixing with the wide-spaced cardioids.  You'll get plenty of stereo 'openess' from the spaced cardioids if you are worried about loosing that by switching the AUD pair from something like ORTF or DIN to coincident.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 08:14:10 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline acidjack

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (37)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 5834
  • Gender: Male
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 06:37:30 PM »
I've had good luck with almost anything that close, but ORTF cardiods are pretty hard to argue with. If you can do multiple mics then many of the techniques these other guys recommend will do the trick. I like mid-side up that close because it allows you to vary the width of the image later.

The thing I have had the least luck with, at least standalone, is onstage omnis. YMMV and all that.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Is a 4 channel slut and
  • Trade Count: (125)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40657
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 06:46:45 PM »
WideORTF, which is 27cm/90*

110, not 90. carry on.

I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.

this would be my tendency.

The bigger question when I'm pulling sbd channels is this: what am I lacking if I just took the sbd feed? That's different at each venue/performance so think about that carefully as you look at the stage (see what's mic'd and an understanding of how loud each instrument would be if it wasn't mic'd). If they only mic some things (overheads, vocals, maybe the bass) but not others, then you want to capture as much of that other stuff as possible to compliment the sbd feed. I did a performance last night where they miced the two horns but not the wurlitzer, bass, or drums, so I knew if I was going to take the sbd feed, I'd have to do something on stage to account for those other three. Are you setting up after soundcheck? Maybe ask the person running sound FOH if they are light on some stuff in the mix for the room.

Thanks Page!
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman & Shanling M0 ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax & Westone Bluetooth MMCX Cables ->
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Westone UM Pro 30 (G1 & G2) IEM's -> Comply Isolation+ Memory Foam Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline ArchivalAudio

  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2823
  • Gender: Male
  • Team Milab | TeamVW:2004 TDI Beetle -Malone1.5
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 03:11:49 AM »
I think it's all been said.
Spaced omnis on stage  and / or cards in  an ORTF [110° @ 17cm] pair center, would be great. DIN could possibly also work [90° @ 20 cm]
Spaced sub cards would be fun too.

If possible run around 18" to 24" (or higher if permissible) on stands caps slightly angled upward.

Remember the purpose of onstage mics is to capture the stage sound heard in the room that may or may not be in the house mix PA.  On stage is live and in your face.

Have fun

Mix in post. add what you need and don't add what's not synergistic.


Oh if you ever have the opportunity to run figure 8 ribbons in blumlein center or even spaced figure 8's on stage you'd like that  and how it naturally adds some crowd between songs.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 03:16:02 AM by ArchivalAudio »
~ Archival Audio ~
Archiving Worthy Music
since 1986 & digitally since 1995

https://www.facebook.com/ArchivalAudio/

Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  • Line Audio CM3's
PreAmps:  Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox • Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: MixPre 10T •  Tascam DR-100 mkIII • Sony M-10 

macMini 3Ghz i7 16GB Ram 500GB SSD • MOTU UltraLite
Naiant MSH-2's •   TOA K1's • Beyer TG 153c's •  AT 853 (4.7kmod darktrain) • Countryman B3's (1 k mod)  + other assorted mics

Offline johnieappel

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Gender: Male
    • chapman photography
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2013, 02:12:17 PM »
Thanks for all the input on this topic - I really appreciate it. I'll be able to test things during sound check, so all should go fine. I plan on doing either XY or ORTF on the front of the stage lip -  running my R44. Happy Holidays!

Offline deadheadcorey

  • HOME TEAM Tapir
  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4225
  • Gender: Male
  • think for yourself, question authority
    • My Recordings on the LMA
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2013, 08:22:28 PM »
I prefer to have my mics split onstage (depending on the size of the stage, def try to avoid them be placed to close to the monitors onstage), I like hearing the separation in my recordings
mics: Audix M1245a-HC; AKG SE300B/CK91; Naiant X-O (hanging in the sweet spot @ Quixote's True Blue)
pres: Oade T+ UA-5; digimod UA-5
recs: R-09x3

iso: 2 ck93 caps
iso: pair of AT4041 mics

Official Archivist for Grant Farm

http://www.facebook.com/kindrecordingscolorado

Jerry Joseph rap during 'Conscious Contact'
"Life's pretty good. life's pretty good. it isn't all good.
I hate it when people tell me its all good. it's not all good.
it's not suppose to be all good. it's suppose to be bad sometimes so you can enjoy the good parts."

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Is a 4 channel slut and
  • Trade Count: (125)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40657
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2013, 10:56:31 PM »
Thanks for all the input on this topic - I really appreciate it. I'll be able to test things during sound check, so all should go fine. I plan on doing either XY or ORTF on the front of the stage lip -  running my R44. Happy Holidays!

Ive never really been a fan of XY. It usually doesnt have that wide stereo angle most of us tapers prefer. As always, YMMV! But Id go ORTF or NOS with cards.

NOS=30cm/90* and
ORTF=17cm/110*
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman & Shanling M0 ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax & Westone Bluetooth MMCX Cables ->
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Westone UM Pro 30 (G1 & G2) IEM's -> Comply Isolation+ Memory Foam Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline ArchivalAudio

  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2823
  • Gender: Male
  • Team Milab | TeamVW:2004 TDI Beetle -Malone1.5
Re: SBD/AUD. Matrix - on stage mic placement
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 12:18:47 AM »
Thanks for all the input on this topic - I really appreciate it. I'll be able to test things during sound check, so all should go fine. I plan on doing either XY or ORTF on the front of the stage lip -  running my R44. Happy Holidays!

Ive never really been a fan of XY. It usually doesnt have that wide stereo angle most of us tapers prefer. As always, YMMV! But Id go ORTF or NOS with cards.

NOS=30cm/90* and
ORTF=17cm/110*

I'd agree usually XY does not offer the stereo image separation.
Now there is  NC CC  or that's what we used to call Near Coincident and cross coincident.

If the 90° XY  is capsule aligned the image works ok for drum overheads but onstage not so much.
Now if you space that  so they are near coincident. You can also run DIN or 90° @ 20 CM  or just about 7 & 7/8" aka just shy of 8".
now that onstage could work well

The space between the average human ears is:  17 cm or about 6.75" or 6 1/2 "  ORTF is 110° @17 cm it's nice onstage  as bean says NOS is cards at 90° and 30Cm  . might sound nice, too, but onstage may have a "hole in the center" of the stereo image.


have fun whatever you do!
~ Archival Audio ~
Archiving Worthy Music
since 1986 & digitally since 1995

https://www.facebook.com/ArchivalAudio/

Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  • Line Audio CM3's
PreAmps:  Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox • Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: MixPre 10T •  Tascam DR-100 mkIII • Sony M-10 

macMini 3Ghz i7 16GB Ram 500GB SSD • MOTU UltraLite
Naiant MSH-2's •   TOA K1's • Beyer TG 153c's •  AT 853 (4.7kmod darktrain) • Countryman B3's (1 k mod)  + other assorted mics

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.286 seconds with 42 queries.
© 2002-2018 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF