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Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)  (Read 35677 times)

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Offline earmonger

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #90 on: October 04, 2015, 11:40:28 AM »
I don't understand what effect the limiter would have if you weren't going into the red zone. To my understanding nothing happens with the limiter below that. Were there sudden downshifts in volume with big bass notes?

Or is it possible the mics were under-powered and distorting on their own from loud bass?

The specs for the 4061 are confusing to me:
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=item&category=128&item=24039#specifications

Which says: For wireless systems: Min. 5 V – max. 50 V through DPA adapter. With DAD6001-BC/DAD6024/DAD4099: 48 V phantom power ±4 V for full performance.

Obviously 9V is above the 5V minimum, but 48V  phantom power--to get the maximum SPL of 144--is a lot higher than 9 V.

 I know from my own mistakes that low power is a great way to get lousy distorted bass. 

Going through mic-in you had both low voltage (PiP is less than 5V) and the possibility of preamp distortion. Very low record-level settings on the PCM-M10 also can be a little wonky. But that would sound different from the limiter suddenly making the volume dip.

I'm no audio pro, so just asking for an explanation.

The limiter is fine for fast peaks such as hand claps from people around you.
Longer peaks (especially in the bass region) are not suitable for the limiter.

I've ruined recordings that peaked at -5.7 dBFS with the limiter on an
otherwise known-good setup: DPA 4061 > 9VBB > M10 @ line-in @ 6.5
The 9VBB was: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=80917.0

I'm pretty sure all my early bad experiences with the DPA 4063 > M10 PiP mic-in @ ~2.0 were also from leaving the limiter on.


Offline justink

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #91 on: October 04, 2015, 03:51:20 PM »
nope.  tried that a few times before posting.
edit:  apparently it's tricky to get it in JUST right... i've flipped it a dozen times but it just now finally found the slot and was readable... weird.  32 gb gives 31 hours of record time at 24/48 though!

Best trick I use, is to insert it exactly the way the card image is shown on the back of the unit... push it in until it is firm, then "click" it in the rest of the way (a 2 step process)

pretty much exactly what finally worked for me.  :p
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Offline dabbler

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #92 on: October 04, 2015, 08:36:13 PM »
earmonger: I would guess the limiter starts to kick in around -12dBFS.  Depending on how risk-averse or not I feel, I usually want my peaks to be in the -6 to -10 range).

I've definitely recorded louder shows (at line-in at 3.7 - 6.5) with DPA 4061 with the same 9V BB without bass distortion problems as long as I left the limiter off.

From what I've read on TS, the DPA converters output 5V DC.  Using 48V (or perhaps even 12V) would fry the DPA 4061s based on my reading here.

I took a big chance and pulled Godflesh last night from the front row with the 4063s into M10 PiP mic-in @ level=2.0 @48kHz.  Sounded fine on a hyper-detailed headphone setup (Benchmark DAC1 Pre > Sennheiser HD 800) although there was a 1.6ms window with 35 clipped samples in the left channel, but no more than 6 consecutive clipped ones, so I couldn't hear it, at least.

What I do notice in many of my recordings is distortion in the mids/highs, but that could be the mics picking up distortion in the PA system that my earplugged ears did not notice.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #93 on: October 04, 2015, 09:16:55 PM »
earmonger: I would guess the limiter starts to kick in around -12dBFS. 

From the M10 manual:

"When the 'LIMITER' is set to 'ON,' the limiter function of the PCM recorder covers the input from the maximum input level to +12 dB. If the input exceeds this limit, sounds may be distorted."

That'd seem to imply it reduces peaks in the 0 to +12 dB range, but nothing below that. Though just dropping everything from there to 0 dB would give you the same clipping as no limiter, so hmm.

Offline justink

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2015, 10:33:33 PM »
i'm not a fan of limiters on recorders.  i like to play it conservative anyway.  i usually peak at -12 to -6.  six decibels is a huge peak to clip.  and even if you hit zero, it's not the end of the world.
Mics:
DPA 4028 (wide cards)
DPA 4023 (cards)
Earthworks TC25 (omnis) 

Pres and a/d's:
Oade ACM Grace Lunatec V3 (FOR SALE - Make Offer)
bm2p+ Edirol UA-5 (FOR SALE - Make Offer)

Recorders:
Sound Devices MixPre-10T
Oade CM Edirol R-44 (FOR SALE - Make Offer)
Sony PCM‑M10

Offline voltronic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #95 on: October 05, 2015, 06:03:16 AM »
earmonger: I would guess the limiter starts to kick in around -12dBFS. 

From the M10 manual:

"When the 'LIMITER' is set to 'ON,' the limiter function of the PCM recorder covers the input from the maximum input level to +12 dB. If the input exceeds this limit, sounds may be distorted."

That'd seem to imply it reduces peaks in the 0 to +12 dB range, but nothing below that. Though just dropping everything from there to 0 dB would give you the same clipping as no limiter, so hmm.

In my experience it doesn't kick on until levels go significantly beyond -12 dB; maybe more like -3 dB.
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Offline EWizard

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #96 on: October 05, 2015, 10:25:18 AM »
I took a big chance and pulled Godflesh last night from the front row with the 4063s into M10 PiP mic-in @ level=2.0 @48kHz.  Sounded fine on a hyper-detailed headphone setup (Benchmark DAC1 Pre > Sennheiser HD 800) although there was a 1.6ms window with 35 clipped samples in the left channel, but no more than 6 consecutive clipped ones, so I couldn't hear it, at least.

I bet that was a good show!  Godflesh is awesome live!

Offline gmm6797

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #97 on: October 05, 2015, 12:16:30 PM »
pretty much exactly what finally worked for me.  :p
:clapping:

Offline groovon

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #98 on: October 06, 2015, 02:14:10 AM »
Just grabbed a second M-10 (a refurb) while I still can. Will use it while I try to get my original fixed. (PIP died--any ideas?)

Will be glad to have a backup, in any case.

Damn brilliant little machines  ;D


Dave

« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 12:07:17 PM by groovon »

Offline gmm6797

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #99 on: October 06, 2015, 09:31:42 AM »
Will be glad to have a backup, in any case.

At this price, I have one too... not easy to get a 722 in the door these days

Offline morst

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #100 on: October 09, 2015, 01:46:44 PM »
I have not seen the limiter light up below -3dB below full-scale. I have run shows where the limiter light popped on, and I didn't have any peaks in the final file over -0.3 dB, maybe even 0.5?

I love the M10 limiter, use it all the time.

earmonger: I would guess the limiter starts to kick in around -12dBFS. 

From the M10 manual:

"When the 'LIMITER' is set to 'ON,' the limiter function of the PCM recorder covers the input from the maximum input level to +12 dB. If the input exceeds this limit, sounds may be distorted."

That'd seem to imply it reduces peaks in the 0 to +12 dB range, but nothing below that. Though just dropping everything from there to 0 dB would give you the same clipping as no limiter, so hmm.
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Offline gmm6797

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #101 on: October 09, 2015, 02:00:37 PM »
From the M10 manual:
"When the 'LIMITER' is set to 'ON,' the limiter function of the PCM recorder covers the input from the maximum input level to +12 dB. If the input exceeds this limit, sounds may be distorted."
That'd seem to imply it reduces peaks in the 0 to +12 dB range, but nothing below that. Though just dropping everything from there to 0 dB would give you the same clipping as no limiter, so hmm.

IMHO, all the more reason not to use it for live music recording

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2015, 05:58:58 PM »
^ In and of itself the limiter does not leave anything clipped or distorted so far as I can tell. 

It may help with a rare transient.  If someone really pounds something to way over the usual input level that peak will still be clipped though.  Safety margin perhaps but I'd not rely on it.  It doesn't seem to hurt but may not necessarily be a substantial help. 
Gear:
Audio:
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SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline paxhell

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2015, 04:21:08 PM »
Hello, I just bought an M10 and have a question
The manual says " A microsSD (FAT16) card smaller than 2 GB and a microSDHC (FAT32) card from 4GB to 16GB are supported"
So I wonder if I can use a 32GB or if it's still limited to 16GB? Anyone have tried a SanDisk MicroSDHC 32GB, Class 4?

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 8)
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2015, 04:26:55 PM »
^ I think that's old. 

I regularly use a standard 32GB Sandisk.  Format it in the recorder... 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

 

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